Q Were you in charge of a safe blasting unit?
Q How long?
Q Will you tell the Tribunal when that was? 1941. This must have been up to the time when I was given the job as liaison officer at the front. At the time there was a standstill and no new buildings were being seized.
Q How many safe blasting units were attached to Sonderkommando 4A?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I had been given the special mission not to blast safes just for blasting's sake, but to seize documents, and I had people with a welding outfit for that purpose. In how far any more groups existed I cannot say and I do not think that any further groups existed, except in one sub-kommando which was not in Lutsk at the time. then, is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether a kommando of 4A was ever in Brody then, is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether a kommando of 4A was ever in Brody, because Brody was utside the territory, or, rather, outside the route which, Sonderkommando 4A took. It is further to the south and it is on the route where all the kommandos passed.
Q Let us return to the reprisal measure here. According to your own information, 1,500 people were killed; who selected these 1,500 people for the executions?
A I cannot tell you that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q You have no idea? You were only told that 1,500 people were shot in reprisal, nothing else, no other details is known to you? I would have to give a false report if I wanted to testify to anything more explicit.
killing of 1,500 people, defenseless people, and guiltless people, and you must have know that they committed no crimes, as you yourself said it was a reprisal measure. You did not care to know why, how, by whom, for what reason, for justified or for unjustified reasons, you did not care for that?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I already told you that this order was considered a reprisal measure and had been issued as such. yourself as to who was killed, by whom, the people were killed, and how they were selected and why this reprisal was carried out. You only know there was a reprisal and the only name connected with this reprisal you can remember is the name of Jeckel, nothing in connection with Sonderkommando 4A?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I already told you that Jantzen told me at the time that the town commander - I cannot recall his name - told him that a retaliation measure had been ordered or that he had ordered one and he also said that Meyer took over the kommando at the time and that Jeckel somehow insisted on having this actually carried out.
Q Will you tell the Tribunal only one thing: Were these people killed by Sonderkommando 4A?
A Sonderkommando 4A participated in it. How far, I cannot say.
Q Which part of Sonderkommando 4A?
A I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Isn't it true that it was the sub-kommando or the Advance Kommando in which you were the highest ranking officer at that time?
A I don't think so, because Blobel came to Luck with the rest of the kommando and only then brought the order along from Reichenau which said that the same numbers of Jews were to be shot.
Q Just a minute ago you told the Tribunal it was Meyer. Now you again say it was Blobel.
same number of Jews were to be shot as retaliation for the Ukrainians who had been shot. report itself it says expressly that it was an advance kommando?
A May I ask on which page it is? in the second to the last paragraph. "An advance squad dispatched to Lutsk on 27 June." Jantszen had stayed two days, he told me that the town command er had ordered a retaliation measure. advance kommando in which you were the highest ranking officer?
A I cannot say that, Mr. Prosecutor, in as far as the highest ranking officer is concerned, I don't think that we shall be able to clear this matter up in this procedure.
Q You don't know whether it was your advance kommando?
A No. I am not certain. you turn to Document Book II-C, Your Honors, I am quoting from page 48. This is 54 in the German. That is the last paragraph on page 48 under the heading, "Page 5 of the original," Your Honors, "Einsatzgruppe C, Lacation, Rowne". This report says that "Einsatzkommando 4A still in Rowne where executions took place of 240 Bolshevist, predominantly Jewish, officials, agents, etc." Were these people interrogated, Herr Radetzky?
A I don't know, I cannot say, Mr. Prosecutor. Rowne?
A I don't know that either. They were being recruited continuously until they had gotten as many as the kommando thought they needed. In any case, it must have been in Shitomir when the number was complete. Haw many there were in at the time, I do not know.
Q What do you know about the executions of these 240 people?
A I cannot say anything about this, Mr. Prosecutor. I said already yesterday that I was in Rowne only for a short period of time and that I had to go back to Luck and that I moved along with the advance kommando mentioned in this report. In this same report it can be seen that the advance kommando had already started moving towards Shitomir. in Rowno?
Q. You were in Shitomir for a certain time, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. The documents show three different operations against Jews, which were carried out in Shitomir. - - - If, Your Honors please, I think I am coming to a new subject, and it would be the right time to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, before I go over to the activity of the witness in Shitomir, I want to follow up the line of questioning according to the Emergency Service Decree of which I started last night, as the interpreter has in the meantime received that part of the translation of the document. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. HerrRadetzky, you have told this Tribunal that you could not join the Wehrmacht, as you were deferred for this emigration agency of Baltic Germans, but in spite of the fact, you were later called up for emergency service according to the Decree on 15 December 1930, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You have told the Tribunal that you made eleven attempts to leave this service, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. May I assume these were serious offenses?
A. Mr. Prosevuyor, I found out what I could do against this emergency status. At that time I didn't know any thing of the form, how the assignment would take place. I was told at the time....
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, he only asked you were these serious attempts?
BY MR HOCHWALD;
Q. Were these eleven attempts serious attempts, nothing else?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Did you when making these attempts look once into the Decree on the basis of which you were drafted into this emergency service?
A. No, I relied on the information which I received from the Hauptstrufuehrer who informed me about it.
Q. So you didn't know anytnign about the Decree then?
A. No, I merely knew of the fact of the emergency status.
Q. Was it not known to you that service in the Wehrmacht, or in the Waffen-SS, had preference to this Decree?
A. No, I didn't know that.
Q. Was it known to you that you had the right to object against the draft?
A. At that time, no.
Q. Was it known to you that you could have been punished with approximately a fine of 1500 marks, if you would not have obeyed this order?
A. No, I didn't know that.
Q. So you didn't know anything about the contents of the Decree?
A. About the contents of the decree, I didn't know any details when I was informed about the Emergency War Status, outside of the answer which I received, and which I have repeatedly expressed.
Q. When did you learn first about the details of this Decree?
A. I heard details about it in January 1942, shen I was in the Labor Office in Posen, whore I had asked what I could do in order to get out of this emergency status.
Q. Did you read the Decree then?
A. No,.
Q. So in spite of the fact that you claim to have made eleven Court 2, case 9 serious attempts to get released from this service, you didn't read once the Decree in order to find out what rights you eventually would have to object against the draft, as that correct?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I relied on the information of the officials whom I thought I could rely upon.
Q. You didn't read the Decree?
A. In the Labor Office in Posen an official read to me parts of it, but today I don't remember what these were.
Q. Am I correct in assuming that you told the Tribunal that you were drafted into this emergency service as an interpreter, is that right?
A. As an interpreter and a man who knows the terrain, the country.
Q. Is it not true then that there was no possibility to use you for another purpose, as for the purpose of an interpreter, is it not true?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I was used for other purposes.
Q. If that is true, witness, is it not further proved that at the moment in which you would not have been used as an interpreter any more, your draft would have ceased?
A. No, it didn't cease in any case. I amde enough attempts to have it revoked and it was not revoked.
Q. You never made an official objection by saying, I was drafted as an interpreter but I am used as a SD-man, I am used for writing reports, I am not used as an interpreter, and, therefore, my draft has no meaning, and it is not valid, did you?
A. In the conversation with Sturmbannfuehrer, Major Trautmann, in Office I in Berlin, I went into great details, in describing this question of my emergency war status. I told him at the time that if one drafts me as an interpreter one should not use me as a Hauptsturmfuehrer, and when I made this remark he asked me to leave the Court 2, case 9 room and to come back in three days.
That is how the conversation proceeded.
Q. How do you explain to the Tribunal this fact, that in spite of the fact that you were drafted as an interpreter, you were never in all the time when you were with Sondercommando IV-A used as such?
A. I explain this by the fact that right from the beginning I was used for writing out the reports and that the assignment such as seizing documents also was part of the field of activity as an interpreter. Later on my employment as liaison officer came about.
Q. That still does not seem to explain to me the fact that you were never used for the service for which you were hired.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the expression was "interpreter and expert familiar with the country". I was put into this job conditioned by knowledge of the country and my knowledge of the language and for my part, therefore, I could not protest against it in any way.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal how your knowledge of the country helped you as liaison officer to the Army, why it was necessary to have a knowledge of the country to be liaison officer to the Army?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have already said in my direct examination that I personally attached value to the job of liaison officer.
Q. You could arrange that, could you not, but you could not arrange to be released from a War emergency service which undoubtedly in your personal case was not valid? Is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A. Twice at the beginning of the Eastern campaign, my attention was called to the fact that I should not attempt, in any manner, to be released from this emergency status. Nevertheless I did so later on, anyway. However, I had exhausted the matter in another way and thus I did make the attempt this way.
Q. Will you then turn to Document Book II-A, Your Honors, I am quoting from page 65. This is NO-3405, Prosecution Exhibit 42, the last paragraph on this page, Your Honors, under the heading "Activity of Teilkommando SK 4A at Lubny", It says, and I quote: "On the 18 October 1941 the Teilkommando of SK 4a at Lubny took over the evaluation of the NKWD files left behind by the Vorkommando and the handling of current correspondence."
"Together with the Ukrainian militia set up in Lubny it was possible, with the aid of the files acquired, to arrest a considerable number of NKWD agents and several leading communists. 34 agents and communists and 73 Jews were shot." the record that the aid and evaluation of the files bad something to do with the executions? That you, between the time you executed your affidavit and you testified here on the stand changed your testimony about your activities, isn't that correct? document. When you made your statement on the witness stand you knew it. Am I correct in assuming that for this simple reason you changed your testimony?
THE PRESIDENT: The affidavit, you mean. His statement in the affidavit.
MR. HOCHWALD: The statement in the affidavit to his testimony, I am sorry, Your Honor.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, this is not so. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Let's go over now to the documents which show the activity of Sonderkommando 4a in Shitomir. I am turning to Document Book II-C, page 16, page 18 in the German. There it is said that "Gruppenstab and Vorauskommando 4a in cooperation have up to date shot, all in all, approximately 400 Jews, Communists, and informants for the NKWD." What do you know about the killing of these 400 people, Herr Radetsky?
A. Mr. Prosecutro, I cannot testify anything about it.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I know nothing about the killing of these people and had nothing to do with it.
Q. You were in this Advance Kommando, were you not?
A. Yes, but I did not command the Advance Kommando.
Q. Who was the commander of the Advance Kommando?
A. Hauptsturmfuehrer Kalsten.
Q. He had the same rank as you?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was the deputy to Kalsten?
A. I don't know that Kalsten had a deputy.
Q. Who acted for him when he was absent?
A. Kalsten was never absent.
Q. Who would have acted for him if he would have been absent?
A. As the next official for the executive measures, I would probably have had to take this over.
Q. Will you repeat that? I didn't hear it.
A. I said for the executive activity, the Senior officer after him.
Q. That would have been you?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, my other official I mean a member of the Security Police or the Gestapo.
Q. How many officers were in this Advance Kommando?
A. Two officers.
Q. That was Kalsten and you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you want to tell the Tribunal that in spite of the fact that there were only Kalsten and you, the only officers, that you were not his deputy and that you never learned about the killing of those 400 people? Is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't want to tell stories at all. I merely want to explain to them how these matters were taken care of, that I had my clear assignment what to do and I completed this assignment.
Q. And you did not see left, you did not see right. The only thing you did see was documents about economics, and cultural matters.
Is that right? You were just going your way, left and right people were killed, hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, but you were only looking at the documents. Is that what you are testifying to?
A. That is only partly correct, but partly it is correct.
Q. Is it known to you whether these 400 people were interrogated by somebody?
A. No, I do not know.
Q. Is it known to you who selected these 400 people?
A. No, I do not know.
Q. Is it known to you who ordered those executions?
A. No, I assume that if the group staff participated as the superior agency the group staff probably ordered it.
Q. In the same report it is said that political commissars wearing civilian clothes were apprehended and later admitted their identity. Did you investigate this case?
A. No.
Q. Who did that?
A. I cannot tell you, Mr. Prosecutor. I had nothing to do with the executive activity of this Advance Kommando. I do not know whether this took place.
Q. And Kalsten, the only fellow officer of yours there, never told you a word about it?
A. No. Kalsten did his work and discussed his work with his officials.
Q. I would like to turn now to page 70 of the same Document Book, Your Honors, That is 77 in the German, the last paragraph of that page. This report says the same - that 400 Jews, called here "mostly saboteurs and political functionaries", were liquidated. about just now?
A. I cannot tell you, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. And now I want you to turn in the same Document Book, Your Honors, to page 28. This is document NO-3151, Prosecution Exhibit 73, where another execution of Jews in Shitomir is reported. 266 were liquidated in this case as a further reprisal measure for the sabotage of the black out regulation. What do you know about that, Herr Radetsky?
A. About this I know that in Shitomir there were several air attacks which can be said in explanation of the sabotage of black out regulations.
Q. What do you know about the killing of these 266 people?
A. I cannot tell you anything about it to. Prosecutor,
Q. You know that these people sabotaged the black out regulation but you do not know what happened to them, is that what you want to say?
A. No. I meant to say that I know that at that time there were severe air attacks in Shitomir. That is what I know about this. How far the black out regulations were sabotaged I do not know.
Q Who interrogated these 266 Jews?
Q Who selected them for killing?
A I cannot tell you. 1 assume that it was officials and the executive people?
Q Who were the officials and who were the executive people? This is 157 of the German, Document 3140, Prosecution Exhibit 30. 126, Your Honors.
I am quoting from the last paragraph on this page. Is it known to you, witness, that the defendant Blobel was ill from the 13 August to the 13 September? that he was sick during the time in Shitomir that I know.
Q Will you look at the document. There it is stated that 10 September 1941 a conference took place with the Feldkommandatur in which it was decided to liquidate Jews of Shitomir completely and radically. Did you represent -
A You said on 10 September?
Q That is right. We found out during the examination of Blobel that the date 18 September is an error. It is in the record, It is 10 September.
Q 10 September. Can you tell the Tribunal whether you represented Blobel in this conference.
A I can say the following thing about this incident. At the time I was ordered to negotiate with the field command about the furnishing of vehicles. At the time they discussed the transportation of the Jews to the West in the area of Rowno. The field command did not approve of this at that time and Blobel later negotiated with the command himself.
I had the order at the time from a member of Einsatzgruppe C. I think it may have been an Obersturmfuehrer by the name of Krieger.
Q I do not think you have answered my question, witness. Did you represent Blobel in this meeting on 10 September 1941?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I told you....
Q Were you present there?
A No. I cannot remember such a conference. Rowno?
Q Who was that?
A I do not know exactly who it was. I assume it was Obersturmfuehrer Krieger.
Q What happened to these Jews in Rowno? they would be resettled there.
Q Were they to be killed there, Mr. Radetzky?
Q Is it not a little Illogical? We have just discussed a document a few minutes ago which shows that the Jews in Rowno were killed and now you tell the Tribunal that in order to get new Jews in Rowno they were to be sent from Shitomir and don't you think that this is a little bit illogical?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I on my part always hoped that this problem would be regulated differently than it was regulated in other cases.
Q When did you lose this hope?
Q Not earlier?
on 19 September you still believed that the people would be only resettled in Rowno and not killed, is that right? another place when just a few days before that the Jews of the place had been killed?
A I don't think so. I occupied myself with this problem very much and I don'1 remember what I thought about it at the moment. I had the hope that these matters would some day find a different solution than the one which the Fuehrer Order had ordered,
Q How long were you on leave? From when to when? of March 1942.
Q Are you sure about the dates?
Q Do you remember having been interrogated by Mr. Wartenberg about these dates?
Q What did you tell Mr. Wartenberg about the dates? Did you tell him the same thing which you told me or did you change the dates?
A No. I think if he asked me about it - I don't remember that he did - I told him the same thing. I only would like to remark one thing here, I told Mr. Wartenberg that I cannot give any exact guarantee for dates and localities after six years. I cannot remember any exact date lines, I cannot say that on 27 September I was there or 14 November I was there - that would be senseless. are in no position to make any guarantee for the correctness of the dates you have given us for the same reason you have given us. Will you answer this question with yes or no.
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I have had time to think about this matter and these investigations must serve me in correcting and clarifying those matters which I might have put incorrectly.
Q How did you check up the date?
A By various questioning of witnesses. I tried to check my own memory and either found it confirmed or not. the very special date of the arrival of Weinmann in Charkow in the middle of March 1942. Is it true that you have checked this date according to the testimony of the defendant Haensch.
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not check it in this reference and I didn't speak to him about it. The question yesterday came completely as a surprise and I tried to check it through outsiders. your memory with other witnesses here. How you say with people outside. How did you get incontact with these people and why was this date so very much of interest to you. It makes no difference in your case. It makes a lot of difference in the case of the defendant Haensch. the witnesses about activities in the East.
Q Are these affidavits in your document book, Mr. Radetzky? document book that you were on leave until 15 March. Dr. Ratz certainly has his German copy of the document book. I have only the English, Your Honors, I am sorry.
Do you find it, Mr. Radetzky?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, not yet. it is.
DR. RATZ: I haven't submitted the document as yet, but I am not worried about the witness using the document to support his testimony. Perhaps it is Page 43 of the document book, the testimony of Lulei.
THE WITNESS: There it says March or April.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: There is no possibility, in my opinion, to check the date according to this thing.
Q (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) Won't you admit that you checked the date according to the testimony of the Witness Haensch? Will you answer yes or no?
A Mr. Prosecutor no.
Q There is no further explanation necessary? the English, Page 53 of the German, I am quoting from the second part of the first paragraph on Page 34, your Honors, Document 3237. Prosecution's Exhibit 138. He said here that 236 persons could be arrested and interrogated, 193 were shot as agitators in dangerous elements. Did you carry out these interrogations?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q What can you say about the killing of these people?
A Mr. Prosecutor. I cannot tell you anything about it. When I came to Charkov, as I said yesterday, I had a number of conversations with the new commander, Dr. Weinmann. There were several heated disputes at the beginning, between us. Then I went to the Army in Poltava and to the Army group, and then I went back to Charkov.
Q So you don't know anything about this 193? Charkov there was another kommando active at the same time. I don't want to list this as an excuse for myself, because I had nothing to do with business. This was the kommando of the commander of the Security Police and SD, under Dr. Kranebitter.
had falsified passports?
Q Did you see these passports?
Q Did you have any passports?
Q You just spoke now about Weinmann. Do you remember his first name? tasks, as liaison officer, to evaluate interrogations of prisoners of war for the RSHA, is that correct?
Q Will you turn to Document Book II-A? Your Honors, I want to quote from Page 45 of the English. I think it is 43 of the German, but I am not sure. The second paragrpah under the heading "Page 5 of the original", your Honors, Document NO_3155, Prosecution's Exhibit 38. It is stated here that, "On 26 September, the Secuirty Police took up its activities in Kiev. That day 7 Interrogation Kommandos of Einsatzkommando 4a started their work in the Civilian Prisoner Camp, in the Prisoner-of-War Camp, in the Jewish Camp, and in the city itself. Thus, among other things, in the camp for civilian prisoners and prisoners of war 10 political commissars were found and interrogated in detail. Conforming to the old Communist tactics these guys denied all political activity. Only when confronted with trustworthy witnesses, five commissars yielded and confessed, that is, they admitted the position they had held, but did not make any statements beyond this. They were shot on 27 September." Were you, at that time, in Kiev? Sonderkommando 4a?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. their testimony?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, as far as I can see from this, they were investigated for their activity, not for their testimony about the Russian Hinterland.
Q And, therefore, you had nothing to do with that? the Army Staff, about the prisoners of war for Office 6, but not within the kommando. this evaluation? interrogations for the RSHA?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I had to evaluate the interrogation reports in the Army. There were often hundreds of records daily from which we would take the various data about the Russian Hinterland, but beyond that I did not evaluate or investigate the interrogation reports of the kommando because this kommando did not carry out the interrogation in such a way as to find out anything about the foreign activity, but only about political activities. Army, the files and interrogations on the basis of which the Army ordered executions which then were carried out by Sonderkommando 4a, did you see this file?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, these are records of interrogations of of prisoners of war who were immediately interrogated on the front line by the counter-intelligence people in order to gather information about the enemy. These were
Q So you did not see these files either. Will you turn now to Document Book II-C? Your Honors, that is on Page 16, the second to the last paragraph, Document NO-2952, Prosecution's Exhibit 72.