QDid you hear anything about the person responsible for this execution?
AI know nothing from my own knowledge concerning this either. I merely know from hearsay that the Higher SS and Police Leader and the Einsatzgruppe had ordered the execution and taken part in it.
QWho told you this?
AI believe I heard this from Blobel as well.
QFinally, I would like to refer to the chapter on Kiev, and I would like to address to you the unambiguous question, did you personally in any manner take part in this execution?
AI did not participate in the execution. As I have already said, only through official channels did I hear about it.
QYou said before that after the period of four to five days elapsed which was necessary to have your car repaired, you again rejoined the Army. Why did you again go to the Army?
AMy official order remained the same, to maintain contact with the Army as liaison officer. I had to do this as soon as possible.
QWhere did you rejoin, the Army?
AI knew that the Army Staff had been transferred to Perjaslaw. That is why I went there. In Perjaslaw I only met a rear-guard Kommando of the Army. I reached the Army Staff which was on the way to Poltawa in Lubny then.
QDid the activity you already described as liaison officer continue?
AYes, but added to this was now the passing on of the so-called situation, that is, the changes in the front lines as available at the G-2 department of the Army, to the Einsatzgruppe and to the Kommando.
QWhat was your social and official position in the Army and in the Army Group in general?
AAs I have already said I was attached to the G-2 of the Army and visited the G-2 of the Army perhaps two or three times, every time I needed the large situation map for which I needed special permission from him.
The competent office for me was the G-2, AO III, counter-intelligence officer. Neither the Chief of the Staff nor Reichenau himself ever received me; the first one because he did not want to hear of me, and as for the latter, I had already introduced myself to him on the road from Sokal to Luck. At the Army Group I met a man from the same district when I was with the G-2, Lt. Col. Freytag-Loringhofen, with whom I became friends.
QWhy did you not have close contact with the G-2 of the Army Group?
ABecause the Einsatzgruppe there had a direct connection through visits of officers who had been assigned for that job.
QI now refer to document book 2-A, page 69 of the German text, document NO-3405, exhibit number 42.
MR. HOCHWALD:Page 57 of the English document book, but Dr. Ratz will quote from page 65 under the heading, "Activity of Teilkommando, Sonderkommando 4-A at Poltawa."
Q (By Dr. Ratz) It is the report of events number 156 of 16 January 1942. There it says about the activity of the Sub-Kommando of SK 4 A in Poltawa: "A major Jewish action took place on 23 November 1941, after the Jewish population had been requested by means of posters to report on the previous day. Altogether 1,538 Jews were shot." Did you have anything to do with this action?
ANo. In Poltawa while I was there, a Kommando of Sonderkommando 4B was there, also the advance Kommando Charkow, and a Subkommando of the SK 4 A as well as the remaining Kommando passed through Poltawa. Also a subkommando of Einsatzkommando 5 was there during that time. The Einsatzkommando 4 B had their quarters in the center of the city, while I, with the Army department with which I was, lived outside of Poltawa. The Kommandos that passed through always took up their quarters with Sonderkommando 4 B, and I know about their presence because they had to turn to me if they wanted to have orders to advance or if they wanted supplies from the Army, because the economic and administrative offices of the Army sent them to me as the competent liaison officer.
QWitness, you have commented on various actions by now which are mentioned in the prosecution documents insofar as your personal responsibility is concerned. Beyond that, further executions are mentioned of which you heard, according to the prosecution documents. Did you take part in these executions in some manner?
ANo.
QDid you take part in any other executions within the SK 4 A or the AOK 6 or Einsatzgruppe C?
ANo.
QCan you summarize for the Tribunal how it happens that during the time when the SK 4 A was under Blobel's command, you did not take part in the executive tasks of the SK 4 A?.
AIt was partly owing to the fact that I had no security police training, and only in time got used to the SD reporting. Concerning the first, the Commander of SK 4 A, Blobel, had given me the limits of my work as interpreter. Two possibilities existed here, either to be active as interpreter during interrogations or to assist in making reports, since the mission of seizing documents alone could not take up my entire time of work, in particular at the time when the front was not moving and no new localities were captured. Work as interpreter during interrogations would necessarily have brought me in connection with the executive work. That is why I tried repeatedly to avoid this. I never carried out interrogations. My activity as liaison officer right from the beginning excluded the possibility of executive work. My position in the Kommando as non-member of the RSHA made me appear not suitable for this.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWell, was it within your province to refuse to act as an interpreter during interrogations?
AYour Honor, I could not refuse, but already before the beginning of the assignment I had been intended for work in the reporting service and could withdraw to that field.
QBut you told us that you were taken because you were an interpreter?
AYes, because of my knowledge of languages I was drafted.
QWell then, if you were taken as an interpreter and your commanding officer assigned you to interpret at an interrogation, how could you refuse to follow his order?
ANo, I could not refuse, then.
QWell then, how did you avoid interpreting at interrogations?
AYes, I did.
QI said, how could you, if you were an interpreter and the commanding officer knew you were an interpreter and they needed an interpreter, wouldn't it be the most logical thing for him to assign you as an interpreter at interrogations?
AMy working day was filled out with the tasks I had been given. I was expert for the department III and later on I was liaison officer.
Q.Well, how did you become an expert in department III? You had not had SD training.
ANo, I did not have that, your Honor. I said -
QWell then, how did you become an expert so quickly?
AI was appointed for this because of my training in economics and my knowledge of languages.
QWell now, we come back to languages again. If you were appointed because of your linguistic accomplishments and your commanding officer needed an interpreter why wouldn't he naturally turn to you who was already known to be a good translator and interpreter?
AYour Honor, there were other interpreters in the Kommando, and the Commander used these interpreters.
QThen you were not used as an interpreter?
AI was never used as interpreter by the Commander. I was never used in interrogations as interpreter either.
QWill you please look at page 65 to which your counsel has directed your attention, and observe the last item on that page which says: "On 18 October 1941 the Teilkommando of SK 4 A at Lubny took over the evaluations of the NKWD files left behind by the Vor-kommando and the handling of current correspondence." Did you do that work?
ANo, your Honor.
QDo you see the item?
AJust a moment, your Honor.
QAt the bottom of the page, on page 65.
ANo, your Honor, I did not do that.
QWell, why didn't you? You were qualified to make this investigation, this evaluation rather?
AThat was not cart of my task. It says here a Subkommando of the SK 4 A, a Teilkommando. I was not in charge of a Teilkommando, a Subkommando, but I was merely liaison officer with the Army Staff.
QWell, at this time you were seizing enemy files and you were evaluating them. You have told us that.
AYes.
QYes. Well then, why wouldn't you, in October, 1941, be engaged in the evaluation of files taken but your own Kommando?
ANo, your Honor, at the time I was liaison officer already. I was with the Army Staff and it would have been quite impossible that the files would have been put at my disposal to work on them there, Evaluation of files by myself when seizing them in Wtek, or Shitomir or Kiev only occurred to that extent that I looked through them, I made a list of them, where it said what the contents of these files were and got then ready to send them to Berlin. I had the mission only to collect documents of basic nature and the question of languages may be cleared up at this point. Russian is the official language in the Ukraine as well, and all documents and decrees throughout the entire Soviet Union which are valid there, were written in Russian.
QYes. Well, now the NKWD files would be basic files, wouldn't they?
AYes, but they were matters which interested the executive department.
QWell, how would they know which department would be interested until you looked them over and indicated what their contents were?
AYour Honor, I knew from previous times the manner of administration in the Soviet Union and I knew where I should look for those matters which concerned me and which had to be of interest to me.
QWere you or were you not engaged in the business of seizing files, as you entered new territory?
AYes.
QYes, all right. Then when you came into Lubny why wouldn't you get these NKWD files?
ABecause that was the task of the Subkommando, the Teilkommando, your Honor.
QWell, you were with the Kommando and you were the one charged with evaluating files because of your knowledge of the Russian language in which these documents were written. Why wouldn't you be charged with responsibility of getting these NKWD files which were very important?
AYour Honor, first of all because I was already a liaison officer with the Army Staff.
QWeren't you doing these two jobs simultaneously, evaluating files and then also acting as liaison officer?
ANo.
QAll right, then, tell us what period you acted as liaison officer and what period you acted in seizing files. Give us the dates.
AYour Honor, I seized files until the beginning of August, 1941.
QWell, that's from June until August?
AYes, June to August.
QWhat date in August?
AWell, about the beginning of August, between 1 and 10 August.
QAll right. Then what did you do?
AThen I became liaison officer with the 6th Army.
QLiaison between the 6th Army and Kommando 4 A?
AYes.
QHow long were you engaged in that kind of work?
AI was engaged in that kind of work, except for interruptions, until the end of May 1942.
QThen what did you do?
AThen I became liaison officer with the 2nd Army and the 2nd Hungarian Army.
QBut always with 4-A?
AYes.
QAnd how long did that last, from May 1942 until when?
AThis lasted until the middle of December 1942.
QThen what did you do?
AThen I became liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps.
QAlways with Kommando 4-A?
ANo, then for Einsatzgruppe C.
QAll right. And how long did that last?
AFrom March until September 1943.
QNow wait there. You said from December 15, 1942 you were liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps. For how long?
AThat must have been for twelve months.
QFor one year? So that takes us up to December 1943.
ANo. From October until December 1943 I was liaison officer with the 2nd Army and the 8th Hungarian Corps.
QWell, now just a moment. You told us that you were liaison officer with the 2nd Hungarian Army from May 1942 until the middle of December 1942. Then from December 15, the middle of December, 1942 you were liaison officer with the 8th Hungarian Corps operating with Einsatzgruppe C. You did that for one year? Now, what followed that?
ANo, your Honor, there is a misunderstanding. I was liaison officer for the 8th Hungarian Corps from March 1943 until September 1943. In between I was on leave.
QYou said that when you were the liaison officer for the 6th Army, from August 10, 1941 until May 1942 there were certain exceptions, certain interruptions?
AYes.
QWhat did you do during these interruptions?
AOne interruption occurred when I stayed in Kiev.
QWas one of these interruptions when you took the files in Lubny?
ANo.
QDo we understand then that this business of seizing files was done by you only between June and August 1 to 10?
AYes.
QYou only were used to seize and evaluate files for about two months?
AYes, and then the days in Kiev were added.
QWell, when was that?
AThat was the end of September or the beginning of October.
QWhat year?
A 1941.
QAnd how long did you do that?
AAll in all about 12 to 14 days.
QSo that for the two month period at the very beginning of your work with the Einsatzkommando and for the 12 to 14 days in Kiev at the end of September 1941 you did not at any time do this work of seizing and evaluating files?
ANo, your Honor.
QSo that in this long period of service with the Einsatzkommando in Russia you were used only for about 21/2 months for this very important work of seizing and evaluating files?
AYour Honor, yes, because later on I became liaison officer and that was my main work.
QProceed, Dr. Ratz. How far is Lubny from Kiev?
AI estimate about 200 kilometers.
QNow you went to great pains to tell us that you were taken into this activity, into the Einsatzgruppe, generally, because of your linguistic attainments.
Yet, in a period involving about three years, you were used for this work for which you were especially gifted only for 21/2 months.
AYes, your Honor, this occurred owing to the fact that I was liaison officer with the 6th Army.
QYes, I know. You have told us that but we come back to this proposition that you were taken into the Einsatzgruppe activity because you were an interpreter, because you knew the Russian language, because you could read documents in the Russian language, and you could evaluate them. In spite of this qualification, highly vital and important to any military organization, you were used for this work for only 21/2 months? That's what you tell us?
AYes, your Honor.
QVery well. BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, about the turn of 1941-42 did you go on leave?
AIn the middle of December 1941 I went or leave and returned the middle of March 1942 from my leave.
QWhy did you take this leave?
AThe G-2 of the Army group and I had had a discussion and I told him about my attempts to be released from my war emergency status. We discussed together in what manner I could be, or rather would be transferred to an assignment in the Wehrmacht and we agreed that I should go on leave while the G-2 settled this matter in the meantime, The plan was that through intermediation of the superior office of G-2 I should be released from the RSHA and I would then be transferred to the regular army unit.
QDid you go home then?
AYes. I made reports accordingly and returned to my family awaiting for a reply from G-2.
QDid your attempts succeed?
A.No. At the end of January I received Information from Colonel Freytag Loringhofen that his suggestion had been rejected by his superior office and he could not help me for the time being.
QWere you satisfied with this?
ANo. I went to the labor office who sent me to the office of the Mayor who had put me on the War emergency status. Here I was told that the war emergency status could only be cancelled by the office who imposed it and only they could release me. I then went to the office of the RSHA in Berlin and asked the department chief competent, Sturmbannfuehrer Trautmann, to release me. I mentioned the emergency and the need in my family, and I said that I wanted to volunteer for the Army. Trautmann listened to me and asked me to come back after two days. After a short discussion in the doorway he talked to me in a very brief manner which could not be misunderstood.
QOne more question to supplement this. You said you went to the Mayor. In which city was this?
APosen, my new domicle.
QTrautmann told you that your war emergency status could not be rescinded?
AYes and he also said that such requests by me could not be understood and I should not do this in the future.
QWhat did you do after that?
AI travelled back to Posen and dealt with tasks of the Advisory Agency on the one hand and with the attempt of setting my domestic affairs. This is what I did until I received a telegram that I was to go to Charkow. Immediately, I travelled to Charkow in the beginning of March.
QYour Honor, I now come to a new sector. This might be a good place for the recess.
THE PRESIDENT:I would think so. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 16 December 1947)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BLUME:Dr. Blume, assistant for Dr. Lummert for Defendant Blume. Your Honor, I would like the defendant Blume to be excused tomorrow morning and tomorrow afternoon as his defense has to be prepared.
THE PRESIDENT:The defendant Blume will he excused from attendance in Court all day tomorrow, Wednesday.
DR. BLUME:Thank you, Your Honor.
WALDEMAR VON RADETZKY - Resumed EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWitness, you said something about the seizure of documents on which we would like some enlightenment. These documents, enemy documents, would naturally contain information regarding activities against the German forces, activities which would call for executive measures. Would you make a report on these activities which would result in executive measures being taken against the authors of those activities?
ANo, Your Honor, I did not report about such matters. The task of seizure of documents as it was assigned to me was the following: The basic and general material which enlightens on the structure and activity of the various Soviet institutions, this has to be seized, and by the first possible way has to be transported to Berlin. All these dispatches either went directly or via, the Einsatzgruppe to Berlin, and I had to deal with this. I had to pack them, either in cases or in reams, and each case or ream had to have a register and a list pertaining to the documents giving their content matter, but these documents did not serve the purpose to combat the enemy locally, but, as far as I know, they served the purpose of elucidating the Reich Government as to the structure and government of the Soviet Union.
QWell, suppose that in these documents you came across a list of individuals who were actively working against the German Armed Forces, what would you do with this list?
AI would have passed it on to Berlin. This was according to my assignment, but I can not remember -
QAllright, let's suppose that you find in Kiev, you have seized the files, and in these files you find a report on a meeting which took place in a certain building, and in these reports there was an indication that a conspiracy was forming, a conspiracy already had been formed, that explosives were to be brought in, dynamite was to be brought in, and that certain roads were to be mined so that when the German forces traveled over them they would all be killed. This report gives the names of conspirators. Would you send that off to Berlin without doing anything?
ANo, under these circumstances it would have been my duty to inform the competent authority immediately. The simplest thing would have been to inform the kommando itself about this state of affairs.
QAnd then executive measures would be taken?
AYes.
QAnd you would be called upon to translate these documents and evaluate them?
AI don't think so, Your Honor, This would have been done be the executive authority or those who dealt with executive activities. These would have to start their work then.
QSuppose that you had found merely a list of functionaries of the Communist Party who according to the Fuehrer Order were to be executed. You find this list of Communist functionaries. What would you do with the list?
AYour Honor, I don't know. Such a case never happened.
QWhat would you do with such a list?
AAccording to my task, I would have sent this list to Berlin, because, contrary to the example you mentioned before, there was no acute danger here; but I am not able to answer this exactly, what I would have done in such a case.
QWell, suppose that you had a list of those actually identified as resisting the German Armed Forces, what would you do with that list, would you still send that on to Berlin?
ANo, I would have passed it on to the German Wehrmacht.
QWould you then counsel with the German Wehrmacht as to the meanins of the list?
ANo, I would have passed it on to the authority of the Wehrmacht,
QAnd you would have done nothing further?
ANo, Your Honor.
QSuppose they would have asked you to translate it, would you have translated it for them?
ANo, the Army had their own interpreters, and they had their own translators who had to interpret it or translate it.
QYou take a list to them. It is drawn up in Russian and you hand it to them. Wouldn't you explain that, "Here is a list of individuals who are dangerous. They are resisting the German Armed Forces. They met at a certain place. They have certain plans." Wouldn't you tell them what the report was about?
AYes, that would have been my duty.
QNow, how many times did you do just such a thing?
ASuch matters I did not carry out. As I said, the material seized by myself I regularly sent to Berlin in all the cases which I have mentioned. I think that I also read this in reports - I can't exactly remember that - this is also being confirmed by these reports of the local situation.
QDid it never happen when you seized files, in all the time you were seizing files, did it never happen that you found in those NKWD files names of individuals who were opposing the German Armed Forces or who were in the category of those listed to be executed under the Fuehrer Order?
Did that never happen once?
AYour Honor, the cases which I personally remember, the NKWD buildings were always empty because the NKWD had no reason.....
QDid you ever see any documents which contained information on enemies of the German Armed Forces?
AThat is possible. I do not remember a special case, but it is absolutely possible that that happened.
QThen what did you do with the information which appertained to those who were to be in some way made the subject of summary action on the part of the German Armed Forces?
AI am afraid I did not quite understand your question, Your Honor.
QYou say you do not exclude the possibility that you did, in some of these seizures, find documents which gave information on persons opposing the German Armed Forces, you said that, didn't you?
AYes.
QNow, what did you do with this information which pointed out certain individuals, certain organizations opposed to the occupational forces?
AYour Honor, I have already stated that those documents which were seized by me I sent off to Berlin.
QI am asking you of documents which included lists of individuals opposing the German forces, what did you do with those lists?
AYour Honor, I do not remember any case. I have already said that I never found such lists.
QThen you said you do not exclude the possibility, that you may have found some documents which called for action, for executive action on the part of the commando or on the part of the Wehrmacht. You said that, didn't you?
AYes.
QAll right, if you do not exclude that possibility you, therefore include it?
AYes.
QAll right, what would you do with that information in those cases where you would find something which called for executive action?
AYour Honor, I personally did not have the right perspective, what would be the primary condition for an executive measure and what was not. I acted according to my assignment, and personally I saw no reason to go any further than this particular assignment. It was my task to seize documents and to transport them to Berlin, and this is what I did.
QNow you can getting away from the question. I said, what did you do in those cases where you did find information acting upon which would call for executive action?
AYour Honor, I said that I did not experience such cases and I did not know about such cases. I said that I did not exclude
QYes, you did not exclude that possibility.
AYes.
QTherefore, you include the possibility?
AYes.
QHow, do you remember any particular case which called for executive action?
ANo, Your Honor.
QDid a case calling for executive action make such little impres sion on your mind, that you can't recall it?
ANo, Your Honor, it is not that I do not remember this particular thing, but it is that I do not know of any case in which I passed on a list to anybody on the basis of which -
QWhen you went into any building which had been occupied by the Russians, you immediately been to look for papers, is that right?
AYes.
QDid you gather up only the papers which referred to your department and leave the others to another department?
AI also interested myself in material which, as it was said at the time, had to be secured in the interest of the Reich.
QDid you gather up all the documents or did you gather up only those which pertained to your department of agriculture, economy, and so forth?
AI busied myself with documents pertaining to my own field of activities. I remember one particular case in which later -
QNow, just a moment, is that the only document, are those the only documents which you would pick up, those which referred to your department?
AYes, Your Honor.
QYou would leave the others there?
AI remember one particular case, I think it was in Shitomir, in which after I had been there, officials - and by officials I mean members of the Security Police - arrived and organized another supervisory control for their own purpose.
QWhen you would go into a building, could you tell, just by glancing at the filing cases, those which contained information of interest to your department?
ANo, of course I had to look at these file shelves, in order to set a proper perspective, and then I decided upon what I would take with me and upon the material which I did not need and which should remain there.
QAnd you would look at everything, wouldn't you?
AI glanced over the whole material, but then especially I looked at the material which seemed important end of special significance to me.
QWell, you would have to look at it in order to find out whether it was of importance to you, wouldn't you?
AWell, Your Honor, that does not mean that I actually read the whole material, out with a glance I can establish what I need for my own purposes, I took that material, and at the office I looked at it and made the registers and lists.
QYou want to tell us you would open up a drawer of a file end if a tomato plant was growing in there then you knew that referred to agriculture and you would take those papers, You looked in another file and if there was some indication of economy in the way of a toy train or something, you would like that file? Witness, to reduce it to its very simple element, we indicate to you that it seems very unlikely that someone charged with the grave responsibility of seizing, enemy papers would not take every paper and evaluate every paper end report to his kommando leader.
AYour Honor, the bulk of the papers, documents and files was so tremendous in Russia, I have already said that from Lutsk itself I sent a whole truckfull of material to Berlin. I had to work day and night on this together with men and officers of the Wehrmacht, and so it was impossible for me to busy myself with material which I regarded as of no consequence for my own purposes.
QAnd you regarded as of no consequence any information which referred to the security of your own comrades and of the armed forces in Russia just because it didn't fall within your department. That is what you are telling us, isn't it?
AThis wasn't my task in this particular case.
THE PRESIDENT:Proceed, Dr. Ratz.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, when did you arrive in Charkov?
AI arrived in the middle of March, 1942, in Charkov.
QWho had meanwhile been appointed commander of SK 4-A?
AThe commander was Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Weinmann.
QWhat was your new assignment in this kommando?
AMy new assignment was the same as it had been before, I was liaison officer with the Army and the Army groups.
QWhere were they stationed?
AThe Army was in Poltava then in Charkov. The Army group was in Poltava.
QDid you have any further tasks to deal with?
AYes, I made out other reports of an economical nature also dealing with cultural questions.
QHow did your assignment come about concerning the self-administration in Charkov?
AThis was a task that I put to myself during the first days of my stay in Charkov as I saw that the Russian municipal administration could not cope with feeding the 3 - 400,000 inhabitants and I, knowing the economical structure of the Army, could support them.
QDid you have any further discussions with Weinmann concerning your own activity?
AYes, Weinmann reproached me that I had been away from the kommando for too long. He had learned that I had not been ill but that I had been seen in Berlin. I described my futile attempt to be released to Weinmann and he, on his part, tried to convince me of the contrary of my attitude. In this discussion I asked for my release, which he refused.
QDid Weinmann make you offers of having you assigned in the Security Police and the SD?
AYes.
AYes. Starting from the point that he as a former physician had never thought himself of joing such a service BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWitness, we asked you this morning whether you were a part of the Teilkommando of SK 4A, how did you answer that question--you said "No", didn't you?
AYes, Your Honor.
QWell, how do you reconcile that with the statement in your affidavit, "I went with the Sonderkommando to Rutkoschow and from there to Lutsk where I was assigned to a Teilkommando of Sonderkommando IVA. How do you reconcile those two statements?
AYour Honor, I stated in my affidavit that I had been attached to a subcommando of the SK IVA. With that I did not say that I was in charge of this subcommando.
QWell, but you were with a Teilkommando of IVA, of Sonderkommando IVA?
AYes.
QWell, why did you deny that when I asked you that this morning, reading from Document Number 3405?
AYour Honor, I do not remember having given a negative asnwer when asked whether I was with the Suncommando.
QI asked you if you were over a member of a Teilkommando of IVA at Lukni, and you said you were never a member of a Teilkommando of IVA
ANo, Your Honor, I understand your question to be whether I was a member of the subcommando in Lukni, and to this my answer was in the negative, but yesterday in my direct examination I have stated that I was with the subcommando in Lutsk, and I said so in my affidavit.
QVery well, I might been mistaken. Proceed. BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, my question was, did Weinmann make any offers to you concerning your appointment in the security police and the SD?