A.I didn't assist in any of them.
Q.You had knowledge about how many killed during that period?
A.In the period of what?
Q.From the 20th of August.
A.Yes. I have already mentioned that I had direct knowledge for this entire period of time of the two executions in Matislaw and Tatarsk by Noack, one is 30, and one is 20.
Q.That would mean that of these 2,000 or more people killed you had knowledge of only 50, is that correct?
A.Directly, Yes.
Q.And indirectly?
A.Indirectly, I knew in general that the group staff itself, as well as the advance commando Moscow continually carried out executions. Of course, I knew this.
Q.You say "continually carried out executions", you mean by that as long as they existed they were busy killing people in accordance with the Fuehrerorder, is that correct?
A.Yes. Well, by "continually", I meant during this period of time. I don't know whether it happened every day. Other executions were carried out, too, outside of the Fuehrerorder.
Q.Now, let us turn now to your affidavit which is in Document Book IIIB, page 57, page 105 or 112 of the German copy. Do you remember the circumstances under which you gave this affidavit on the 2nd of July?
A.Yes.
Q.Was there any duress in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A.No.
Q.Was there any threat made in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A.No.
Q.Was there any threat made in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A.No.
Q.Was there any promise of immunity made in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A.Promise for reward--No. May I add something?
Q.Yes.
A.But upon my objections against certain phraseologies which I made, Mr. Wartenberg told me that I would have the possibility of correcting these incorrect formulations at another day. I was told this. And after I had objected to these formulations, I gave my signature because I had this statement by Mr. Wartenberg.
Q.Were you reminded before you signed this statement that you were under oath?
A.I was put under oath before, Yes.
Q.And was the oath administered to you just before you signed it, and doesn't it appear at the end of the affidavit?
A.The oath was administered to me as soon as I entered the room, without anything being told me before I entered the room, and Mr. Wartenberg was standing and immediately administered the oath to me. That was the first thing that I heard Mr. Wartenberg say.
Q.Were you given the opportunity to make changes and corrections in the statement?
A.Of course, I did, but only in the small details. But as far as more important objections which I made, I was told that this was not necessary now, and I would have an opportunity to make these corrections later. This was told to me. Thereupon, I said, "Well, under these circumstances, I am prepared to sign this affidavit in this form, if I will have an opportunity to correct it later.": and I got this later. Of course, I was very excited.
Q.You swore at that time when you signed the affidavit that the affidavit was true, did you act?
A.I signed this affidavit, of course, because I tried to tell the truth to the best of my knowledge and belief, which I then had. I was interrogated so quickly that I had no time to think over these matters and really to remember all these things. Thus, I said whatever I remembered at the moment.
Q.Was this affidavit given to you to sign the first time you spoke to Mr. Wartenberg?
A.No. The first time I saw Mr. Wartenberg before, the day before, the 1st of June.
Q.So, at least one day elapsed between the time you spoke to Mr. Wartenberg and the time you signed this affidavit?
A.Yes, and on the second day I even made additions, after I used this interval to think the matter over and think about what I might have forgotten.
Q.Now, we have just gone over the reports which show that the Vorkommando Moscow between August and September, together with the Group Staff killed about 2,000 people. In this affidavit which you made and swore to, you stated, and I quote from paragraph 1: "Professor Dr. A. Six, who led this unit at that time, was recalled to Berlin in August 1941, and during August/ September 1941 I acted as his deputy and led this unit".
A.Yes, and that is just one of the points to which I objected, Mr. Prosecutor. During my interrogation I stated that I did not command the unit, but Nobe commanded It, and that I had been designated as his deputy, but that all orders and instructions were given by Nobe. These were my words. It was formulated in this way, and I said that this isn't correct, I was never commander of Advance Commando Moscow, I was only his deputy, therefore, I was told that this was not so important, so essential, and that I could correct this later on, and I did that in my second affidavit.
Q.In other words, your statement--your sworn statement of this affidavit is which you state that you led the Vorkommando Moscow is false?
A.It is incorrect, and I corrected it accordingly or objected to it.
Q.Yet you signed this affidavit knowing that it contained an incorrect statement, is that correct?
A.I signed it with reservations on the basis of the promise given to me.
Q.And you did have the opportunity to make corrections, however?
A.I had the opportunity to make corrections, but not this correction.
Q.Are you trying to say that you said to Mr. Wartenberg, "Here, I want to correct this mistake because this mistake would mean that I killed 2,000 people", and Mr. Wartenberg said, "No, don't correct that, you will do that some other time", is that what you are trying to tell the Tribunal?
A.It is not a matter of the 2,000 people, Mr. Prosecutor, it is merely about the commando of a unit, which I was to have led allegedly, but which I did not command, and I clarified this, that I never personally commanded the commando, but I was a deputy without performing its function. I corrected this in my second affidavit.
Q.Your second affidavit was made after you had received the indictment, is that correct?
A.The second affidavit was made after I got the indictment, Yes, because before that I had no opportunity.
Q.Didn't you state in your interrogation, that is before you received the indictment, that you led the Vorkommando Moscow until September--Yes or No, then you can explain it?
A.It says here, Yes.
Q.But you also stated it in your interrogation the day before-
A.No. In my interrogation I described the matter differently.
Q.Allow me to read to you a question to refresh your memory. I will read it in the German from the transcript:
"Q Thus you headed it from August until when?
AUntil September."
COURT II CASE IX Do you remember that?
A.Yes. the deputy leadership--as long as I belonged to the Advance Commando Moscow, I was the deputy, but I did not perform my duties as a deputy. That is that point which I objected to in the affidavit.
Q.Why did you sign the affidavit, which stated that you had the opportunity to make corrections, that you swore that it was true when you knew that on a vital point that it was false?
A.I called his attention to this very important point, and I was told that it was not so important, I would get the opportunity later to correct these mistaken formulations and errors.
Q.So that on that simple statement-
A.I was in such a state of mind at the time that I relied on this, and I signed it under the--with the reservation that I would later be allowed to correct this, and I did so at the next occasion which I had.
Q.Isn't that a little naive?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I was at that time is a state of mind which one could not call naive.
Q.Why were you in such a state of mind?
A.Because I was very excited, and that is very clear. I had had so many experiences in these two years I had been interned after the collapse, and I experienced so many disappointments and misfortunes that I was so excited, and when I was transported to Nuernberg I did not know what was coming, and after I arrived here, one hour later I was called to interrogation. I was immediately brought into a room. Immediately they said, "Raise your right hand and awear", and I was so mixed up that I didn't have all my logical thinking in order.
QYou were so mixed up that when he asked you what dated you commanded the Vorkommando Moscow, you gave him the dates, and you didn't change the testimony between then and the next day when you -
ABut the dates were incorrect too, and I have overlooked several dates so that the prosecution had to make a correction.
QNow I draw your attention to paragraph 3 of the same affidavit where you state concerning the executions in Tatarsk, the first one, the executions proper were carried out by Noack under my supervision.
AYes, as far as I remember, I thought about this concept supervision and I discussed this concept with Mr. Wartenberg in detail. I said right away I had no mission to supervise.
QIn other words, here again, here before the indictment you stated that it was under your supervision. After you thought it over, and, particularly, after you got the indictment and the documents, you discovered it is a false statement.
ANo, I immediately objected to this matter of supervision at the first moment and I always said, "This is not correct. I did not supervise" and that's the same thing -- I got the same answer. I could correct all these matters later on.
QNow you signed this statement saying you had the opportunity to make corrections. You stated here on the stand that you had had the opportunity to make corrections. Why didn't you make that correction?
ABecause I was told that these corrections were not necessary. I could make these corrections later, at a later date. I signed it with this reservation.
QWhat corrections did you make?
AI do not know. I do not have the copy here.
QYou mean that every correction you made -
AYou mean, objections made which were not corrected?
QNo, no. I mean, which corrections did you make actually in the affidavit?
AThere were various typing errors and other small things which I changed, as far as I remember.
QYou went through the affidavit and made the corrections, but when you came to the important parts as to who supervised the executions, and who was in command during the time that these thousands of executions were carried out, you didn't make changes, you signed it, saying you had the opportunity to make corrections, saying that it was correct and waited for a later chance, is that who you want us to believe?
AYes, because Mr. Wartenberg expressly told me that I would have an opportunity to correct these matters later, that I would get a chance to do so.
QNow turn to Paragraph 4. This discusses your second execution in Tatarsk. In it you stated that "I had the remaining Jews, approximately 30, shot. I carried out this order to prevent these people from joining the partisans. Although I had orders to shoot women and children too, I did not comply with this part of the order." Now, you are going to tell us, aren't you, that this again is wrong and here you wanted to change it, but Mr. Wartenberg said "Some other time", and you said, "Yes, Sir", and you state everything in this affidavit is false. Is that what you intend to say?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not object to this point.
QIn other words, it is true that you did have all the remaining Jews shot?
AI had the 30 men in Tatarsk who remained shot. It was for the reasons which I mentioned yesterday in my direct examination.
QDidn't you say yesterday in your direct examination that you didn't have all of them shot? You just had the guilty ones shot.
AI had the guilty ones shot, yes, because I determined that the Jews remaining in Tatarsk were guilty.
QThen all the Jews were guilty. There were none innocent and therefore you had them all shot, but all after a careful trial, of course?
AAll 30 men after an investigation of the matter were found guilty, of course.
QWhy did you investigate when you knew that they were Jews and Hitler had ordered all Jews to be killed?
ABecause I did not have the order to carry out the Fuehrer Order. I had the order to examine the messages of the Mayor of Tatarsk and after investigating the matter to execute the guilty ones. That was my mission. I did not have an assignment to carry out a Jewish execution on the basis of the Fuehrer Order.
QYou knew that Hitler had ordered that all Jews were to be killed and that order was given to all Einsatzkommandos, did you not?
AYes.
QYou had taken an oath to follow Hitler and obey his orders, had you not?
AYes.
QWhy did you bother to make an investigation when you knew that Hitler had ordered that all Jews were to be killed and you had sworn to follow his orders?
ABecause I did not have the order to follow the Fuehrer Order. I was not a commando leader. I could not give the order on my own initiative. That was only a matter of a decision for a commando leader. I was a member of the Group Staff at the time. My chief of the Einsatzgruppe only gave me the order to investigate this subject carefully and then to shoot the guilty ones.
QIt's just a coincidence, isn't it, that they were all guilty?
ANo, that is no coincidence. That was exactly determined.
QWhat would you have done to an innocent one?
AI have already said that yesterday. If I had found an innocent one, I would not have shot him. I would have put him back in the Ghetto, the same as I did with the women and children.
QNow, the same as you did with the women and children. You stated in your affidavit that you did not shoot any women and children. Let me draw your attention again to Document Book II-B, page 54 of the English, page 48 of the German. Let me read you "As punishment for not following the orders of the German Security Police, all male Jews and the three women who were in Tatarsk at that time were shot." Now you told us that you studied reports for a long time; while everybody was killing Jews you were busy studying reports. Now study this one and tell us what your interpretation of that report is.
AI never studied the other reports, Mr. Prosecutor.
QYou are trying to apalogize for making your affidavit?
ANo.
QI am just asking you -
AI don't understand your question.
QI am just asking you: Study this report. Here it says that "all male Jews and the three women who were in Tatarsk at that time were shot". You stated that no women were shot. Here it says that three women were shot. What is your explanation for the discrepancy?
AI have already given this explanation yesterday, Mr. Prosecutor. I had forgotten all about these three women. I cannot give you any other explanation.
QNow, you told us -
AIf I had known this, if I had remembered these women, I would have mentioned these three women, because I had no reason to keep it from you. There was an investigation. According to the instructions, the women were found guilty so why should I have some reason to keep this from you?
QYou remember the 30 men, all of the men who were killed and you remember it in great detail that the women were very ugly, that they had been the contact between the males and the partisans, isn't that correct?
AYes.
QAnd that they had given you the information upon which you were able to shoot the others, is that correct?
ANo, that was not the case. The women did not give me any information. I got the information on the basis of interrogating the Jews concerned or the Jewish Council of Elders and the men.
QBut how can you remember that these 30 men had contact with the partisans when their only contact was through the women and forget all about the women?
AWell, Mr. Prosecutor, that's it. I cannot give any explanation for this. In this six years I completely forgot about it. I did know that the men had contact with the partisans, but I had completely forgotten about the three women. At the moment when I first saw the document, when I gave my second affidavit, when I read there that three woman were also shot, I, of course, remembered everything, but actually it was missing in my memory and I have no explanation for it.
QAccording to this report, it would appear that all the women who were in Tatarsk, that is, all the Jewish women, were shot, and is just happened that there were only three. Isn't that the way you read the report?
AIn Tatarsk, as I have stated, there were about 200 women and children, but whom I sent back into the Ghetto.
QWhat does this report men then, "Three women who were in Tatarsk at that time were shot"? Why do they say, "The three women who were there were shot"?
AHere it says,"as well as three women", not, "the three women".
QDid you say it is an error in the translation?
AThere must be a mistake in the translation, yes. It only says, "As well as three women", not, "just these three women."
QWill you please read that sentence in the German so that we can get a translation at this time. Don't leave out any words.
A "As punishment for not complying with the orders of the German Security Police, all male Jews being in Tatarsk, as well as three women were shot."
QWhat happened to the children?
AWell, the children remained with the women. Women and children were sent back.
QIn other words, you just took the fathers out and shot them there, the fathers, plus these three women.
AI shot no fathers, Mr. Prosecutor. I shot people who had come into contact with the partisans and who thus violated the instructions of the Army and the directives of the Security Police.
QIn other words, the crime which these men committed was, first, that they left the Ghetto and, second, that --or they did not leave the Ghetto - they all remained in the Ghetto, but they had some mental contact with these partisans, is that correct?
ANo, they first had taken up contact with the partisans and on the basis of this contact they had left the Ghetto. When I arrived in Tatarsk they were no longer in the Ghetto. For the most part they had fled into the forest. That is why there were only 30 men left in Tatarsk. With definite intentions they had all left the Ghetto when I arrived in Tatarsk.
QSo the crime then was this: You ordered them to stay in the Ghetto where as Jews they had to wait until you could carry out the Fuehrer Order and murder them and because they left the Ghetto and tried to seek some refuge, that is the crime which justifies your killing them. Is that what you are trying to say? By trying to evade your murder, that justifies your killing them. Is that correct?
AMr. Prosecutor, first of all, I did not send the Jews into the Ghetto. The Jews were sent into the Ghetto on the basis of the Fuehrer Order, by the men who had this order, second, they were obliged to adhere to some directives which were given for security reasons. If, for some reasons, they would leave the Ghetto on their own initiative they violated the directives of the Security Police and thereby the security of the rear Army area. That was one point. The second point, as I have already stated, is that this leaving of the Ghetto happened at the instigation of the partisans and that for the most part the men immediately had left Tatarsk in order to join the partisans and that those 30 had been left over with the express intention to work for the partisans. Thus, they had practically allied themselves with the partisans. These were the reasons, the one and the other. The one was the forbidding to leave the Ghetto for security reasons and the other was the violation of the general prohibition which the Army had decreed: to join the partisans or to support the partisans any way or to establish contact with them in any way. These were the reasons which caused me to have these 30 men and these 3 women shot.
QAren't you then saying in substance, that the crime which you regarded as punishable by death , was the failure of the Jews to wait where they had been ordered to wait until they could be killed in accordance with the Fuehrer Order?
ANo.
QTheir crime then was to try to defend themselves against the orders which said that thed were all to be murdered?
AI can not admit this.
QDo you admit that there was an order that all Jews were to be killed?
AYes, the order existed.
QDo you admit that all Jews who were put into a Ghetto were put there for the purpose of being killed?
ANo, I don't know this. The Jews were collected in the Ghetto in order to guard them.
QTo protect them, are you trying to say? To guard them against what? To guard them against what?
ABecause they were considered generally as unreliable elements in the sense of the security of the rear Army areas.
QWhat happened to the Fuehrer Order?
AWell, the Fuehrer Order, as I have already stated, had been limited by this time, so that the able-bodied Jews would be used for labor. I knew this. That is all what I knew.
QWhen was the Fuehrer Order limited and how did you first find out about that limitation?
AI do not know when it was limited. I heard about it the first time when I was in Mstislawl with Noack; that is when he told me about it and I later gathered it from the conversations of the group, but when it was issued, I don't know.
QAnd even with the limitation, didn't it mean that all Jews who were unable to work were to be killed, isn't that so?
AI don't understand the question.
QWhat was the limitation on the Fuehrer Order?
AYes, of course.
QThen you were guarding the people in the Ghettos, at least, in so far as it concerns the old, the woman and the children, the sick, who were unable to work until the Einsatzkommando could get around to shoot them in accordance with the Fuehrer Order, even with the limitation.
AI did not guard any.
QThey were guarded by units under your command?
ANo.
QThey were guarded by German units?
ANo.
QBy when were they guarded?
AThey were under the local mayor.
QYou mean on his own, the local mayor want out and rounded up all Jews, put them in the Ghetto, and said, "Now you wait here."
ANo, the Jews were collected in Ghettos, of course, by units of the Security Police, who were competent for this, but when they were once in the Ghetto then they were under the supervision of the local mayor.
QNow I am trying to find out from you for what purpose did they put the Jews in the Ghetto who were too old or too week to work?
AI do not know, Mr. Prosecutor.
QDid you ever hear of the Fuehrer Order?
AYes.
QDid you know the Einsatzkommandos were supposed to murder all the Jews?
AYes, that was the Fuehrer Order.
QAnd now I ask you for what purpose were the Jews put into the Ghetto You don't know. Did you suddenly have a lapse of memory?
AThe Jews were brought into the Ghetto in order to collect them because they were being used for labor.
QHow about the old ones and the sick ones who couldn't work?
AWell, I said that the Fuehrer Order, as far as I had heard, was limited at that time, so that only those not able to work would be shot.
QSo that the old and the sick were put into the Ghetto to wait until you could get around, or the Einsatzkommando could get around to shooting them, is that correct?
AI don't know, I do not know what to answer.
QI know you don't know what to answer, because the answer is "Yes, it is correct", now, isn't that true?
AI don't know.
QWhy don't you know?
AI do not know what to answer to this.
QYou are to answer the truth and nothing but the truth.
QYes.
QYour answer then is "Yes"?
AThe Jews were collected in Ghettos, yes, partly to work and that they were shot afterwards, well, it probably happened on the basis of the Fuehrer Order.
QYou say, "it probably happened". Do you think the Fuehrer Order was not carried out?
AThe Fuehrer Order was carried out.
QThen They were killed?
AWell, of course, Jews were shot, yes.
QSo then, what we have is this: The Jews are put into the Ghetto for the purpose either of working or for the purpose of being killed if they couldn't work and because they leave the Ghetto and try to escape or contact the partisans in any vagye way, that justifies your killing them afterwards, is that correct?
AOf course, just as I must have killed others on the basis of the investigations, others, non-Jews, because the directives were there to be obeyed and especially during war.
QYou regarded it then as a crime to try to save your life?
AI don't know whether that was the reason, to save their life. After people established contact with partisans and wanted to go outside, I don't know whether that could be considered as saying one's life.
QNow, just a moment. If a Jew left the Ghetto, what happened to him? When a Jew left the Ghetto what happened to him?
AIf a Jew left the Ghetto without permission, I don't know, I do not know what measures were taken then.
QYou told us you knew that if he stayed in the Ghetto he was killed. Now, if he left the Ghetto, was he then set free?
AIf he left the Ghetto, he violated the directions which were given.
QSo that he was killed anyway?
AThen he had to be executed, yes.
QSo, actually, it didn't matter what a Jew did, whether he stayed or whether he went, he was killed.
AI do not know.
QYou told us that if he stayed he was killed. You told us that if he went he was killed. Now I asked you if he stayed or if he went he was killed, you say you don't know. Why is it you don't know? Is the question -
AHe was in this situation, yes, of course, I admit this.
QNow, as far as a Jew was concerned, no matter what he did he was killed.
AIf he violated the directives given to him.
QThen whether he did or whether he did not violate the directives he was killed. If he stayed in the Ghetto and if he left the Ghetto he was killed. If he contacted the partisans he was killed. If he did not contact the partisans he was killed. No matter what a Jew did he was killed, is that correct?
AYes.
QSo that the purpose of all these interrogations is just to give you defense, is it?
AWhich investigations?
QYou said that you investigated it whenever you had any Jews killed. There was a big fuss and interrogations. You determined if they were contacting partisans. What was the purpose of this if Jews were killed any way, as you have just told us. Did you have so much time to waste that you could go around making all kinds of useless investigations and trials?
AOnly once I was given an executive measure. This was in Tatarsk.
QJust a moment, Witness. Before you proceed, let's classify a term. By "executive measure" you mean the murder of the Jews, is that correct?
ANo, executive measures are not the execution of the Jews. These are investigations of some kind of violation of the directives given, That is, generally, an executive measure as contrasted to an informational measure.
QWhen you say "executive measure", isn't that always connected with executions?
ANot necessarily. If the investigation shows that the man is innocent, or did not commit a very severe violation, then he is either released or he is imprisoned for a certain time.
QContinue with your explanation. Continue with your explanation.
AI don't understand the question.
QYou mean you have nothing more to say on the subject?
AI did have something to say, but I don't know what it was.
Mr. FERENCZ: I will come back with some more questions for you then after the noon recess.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 12 December 1947.)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT:Proceed, Mr. Ferencz.
WALDEMAR KARL KLINGELHOEFER - Continued.
CROSS EXAMINATION - resumed BY MR. FERENCZ:
QHerr Klingelhoefer, before the recess you told us that the Jews than they were in the Ghetto, or out of the Ghetto, were all shot?
AI didn't get the question.
QBefore the recess you told us that Jews, whether they were in the Ghetto or out of the Ghetto, were all to be killed, and were killed. You also told us that you has conducted an extensive investigation to determine whether the Jews were Partisans, or what they had done. Now the question is, in view of the foot that all Jews were killed simply because of the Fuehrer Order, why was it necessary to have any investigation at all?
AFirst of all, Mr. Prosecutor, I said that all Jews were outside the Ghetto, not that Jews were inside the Ghetto. That was in Tatarsk. In the second place, I didn't carry out the execution based on the Fuehrer Order, but because of the order given to me by the Chief of Einsatzgruppe-D to make investigations, and to shoot persons or those guilty.
QBut you told us that all the Jews were all killed, whether they were in the Ghetto, or out of the Ghetto, that just because they were Jews they were to be killed under the Fuehrer Order. If that was true, and you told us that it is true, why was it necessary to have any kind of investigation to prove any crimes on the part of the Jews?
AI didn't have the order to carry out the Fuehrer Order, Mr. Prosecutor. It was my order in this special case to stop this mutiny and not to carry out the Fuehrer Order.
QWhat mutiny are you referring to?