Transcript for NMT 9: Einsatzgruppen Case

His SD rank was merely Unterscharfuehrer. Now that is what I gather; I don't know whether the Tribunal got that.

BY THE PRESIDENT:

QWell, witness, let's get it very specific. In the army you were an officer?

AYes, Your Honor.

QWhen you entered the SD you were a non-commissioned officer?

AI became referent and therefore had the position and the rank of an officer, but I received the rank as NCO and not as had been promised me as an officer; but several promotions followed, only spaced a few months apart so that this rank should become the same as my position as referent and should be a similar one.

QThen your career in the SD service loomed much more attractively to you than a career in the army?

AMore interesting in so far as it was my aim that in the army too I would work in an economic department because I had always been interested in economics. BY MR. WALTON:

QNow at the outbreak of the war you were a trained reserve officer, is that correct?

QWhy were you not called for active service as a Wehrmacht officer?

AIn August until the beginning of September 1939--the dates in the document are not quite right here--I was in my home regiment-that is in the infantry regiment No. 33 in Zerbst near Anhalt--and from this battalion I was recalled to Berlin by wire.

QAfter this recall, did you ever serve a day as a Wehrmacht officer or as a reserve officer in the Wehrmacht?

AAfter I had been recalled?

QYou said that with your home infantry regiment 33, when war broke out a telegram from Berlin came and recalled you to Berlin.

QNow I assume that meant to recall you back to your position in the SD.

QNow the next question I ask you: did you, after you had been recalled from your regiment, ever at any time see active service from 1939 to 1945 as a Wehrmacht reserve officer?

QThen you, at 31 years of age, a trained reservist and a former regular army man, was not called to service because your services were deemed more valuable in the SD, is that correct?

AThis was not up to me, Mr. Prosecutor. If it had been up to me I would have remained with the troops right from the start.

QLet me interrupt you for a minute. Is that your opinion why you did not serve with the Wehrmacht for which you had been trained because you were valuable to the SD?

ANo, Mr. Prosecutor, this happened because the mobilization orders provided that in case of war I immediately be put at the disposal of the RSHA I already knew this before the war--and one received a notice about this which stated this suite explicitly.

QCould you have requested to be released from service in the SD and go with your regiment?

ATwo or three times after my return to Berlin I tried to do this until I was prohibited from making any further applications. Heydrich already threatened me with punishment if I made any more such applications. BY THE PRESIDENT:

QWell, that is after your service in Russia? You say, when you returned to Berlin?

ANo, Your Honor, that was before Russia.

QWell, you say after you returned to Berlin. Please give us the date.

AFrom Russia?

QNo. We understood you to say that-

AI beg your pardon.

QWe understood you to say that after you returned to Berlin you tried to join the Wehrmacht and were prohibited from doing so. I am only asking the date that took place.

AIt was in the last days of August or the first or second of September 1939. BY DR. WALTON:

QNow in your direct examination you stated that in 1935 you joined the SD but that you did not join the SS, is that true?

AI joined the SD, and owing to that I became part of the SS formation--the SD.

QThen let me call your attention to Document Book III, Page 48, which is Document 2858, Prosecution Exhibit 161, which is your own affidavit. Now in Paragraph 2, the second sentence thereof, it states, and I quote: "In the beginning of the year 1936 I joined the SS; my SS number is 272375."

QWas this a voluntary act on your part?

AThat was a voluntary act, yes; only in this formulation there is missing the expression: SD, and that is why it might be misleading; but it was a. voluntary action.

QDid you continue to belong to both the SS and the SD after 1 September 1939?

QNow after you got to Berlin in the last days of August 1939 under orders from the RSHA, did you ever make any attempt to have those orders rescinded and to go on duty with your 33rd infantry regiment?

AYes, Mr. Prosecutor.

QHow soon after you reached Berlin did you make this effort?

AI made it already in Zerbst with my regiment and my battalion commander. General Von Herr would have liked very much to take me along and I, myself, urgently desired to remain with him.

QNow your rank in the army reserve at this time was that of a lieutenant, was it not?

QNow what was your SS rank when you joined the Einsatzgruppe D two years later in 1941?

ASS-Sturmbannfuehrer.

QThat SS rank is higher than the rank of a lieutenant in the army, is it not?

QSo in effect by remmaining with the SD and the SS you enjoyed higher rank and higher pay, did you not?

AMr. Prosecutor, if I had not been at least a captain or a major in 1941--and if I had remained on active duty in the army, I would have dropped in grade but I left the active service and went into the administrative service and owing to that I could not he promoted any further.

QWell as long as you held the rank of a reserve officer of lieutenant, you still at some time was subject to redraft back in the army at your rank of lieutenant, were you not?

QBut as long as you were on active service with the SD you continued to rise in rank, didn't you?

AYes, because it was not the rank of an active troop leader-a regular troop leader--but this major's rank can only he compared with an officer in the army administrative department.

QIt still would mean more pay to you then a lieutenant in the reserve, would it not?

ASalary? Pay? Of course.

QNow did you know before you reported for duty with the Einsatzgruppe D that you would serve with your old chief, General Ohlendorf?

AYes, I knew that.

QYou considered that a fortunate circumstance in your career, did you not?

AI beg your pardon, I didn't quite understand. I would not say "career," but apart from that I had no regrets, of course.

QNow, who told you first about the Fuehrer Order?

DR. GAWLIK:I object to that question. The subject was discussed in detail yesterday. The witness replied to the question when he first heard about the Fuehrer decree, and I asked this question myself, and your Honor also addressed this question. I, therefore, consider this question irrelevant. The witness stated the localities where and under what circumstances this happened.

MR. WALTON:I did not ask him where, your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT:You do not need to argue this point. Dr. Gawlik, this is cross-examination. He can ask him every question you asked if he wants to. In cross-examination he can go over the same field. That is entirely proper. Answer the question.

Q (By Mr. Walton) I will repeat the question, Colonel. Who was the first men who told you about the Fuehrer Order?

AThat was through a discussion on the way to our garrison with the Kommando Chief Zapp.

QDid you see General Ohlendorf after he came back to his Einsatzgruppen headquarters in Pretsch, after he had attended this meeting of group leaders and commando leaders at which this order was given by Streckenbach and Mueller?

AI cannot say when I met him because I am not certain until now when this discussion took place in Pretsch, and I already said that I remained in Berlin and every day as required I traveled to Dueben.

QIn your opinion is not the Fuehrer Order a rather unusual order, as well as a very large order?

QThe day it is given in your opinion it would at least be the chief topic of conversation, and this order would be in the front of everyone's mind who was a member of the Einsatzgruppe, wouldn't it?

AMr. Prosecutor, it was like this: A very strong prohibition had been issued not to discuss any matter which concerned somebody else at that moment. In all offices this had been posted in writing.

There was no general discussion about it.

QWell, an order of such size, to you as an officer in an Einsatzgruppe, certainly affected you, did it not?

AI cannot realize this influence and this effect because it had nothing to do with my job as Chief 3.

QNow, how long had you known General Ohlendorf before you went to Pretsch or Dueben?

AAbout five years.

QAnd you said th t you had been in his department in the RSHA for a number of years before the service with the Einsatzgruppe?

QNow, do you ask this Tribunal to believe that you, a business associate of many years, and deputy for the group commander, certainly for economic questions, and more than likely a personal friend of General Ohlendorf, had to learn of the Fuehrer Order only from the gossip of commando leaders?

ANo. Of course, I used the next opportunity to discuss this with Ohlendorf in the garrison in detail, but he did not inform me about this before that, and I am convinced that during these years many things occurred of which Ohlendorf knew and of which I did not know.

QYesterday you testified that when you first heard of the Fuehrer Order your reaction was that this order was, and I quote the word that you used, "incorrect". Does this mean that you considered this order illegal?

ANo, Mr. Prosecutor.

QDoes it mean that you considered this order inhumane?

AI was trying to say that owing to my inner attitude I considered it wrong.

QDid you consider this order, from your inner attitude, inhumane?

AI don't know how one can express such feelings. I mean my feelings revolted against this.

QYou did consider the order certainly to be an unjustifiable order, did you not?

AI could not look into this, Mr. Prosecutor. I had no opportunity.

QWe were not speaking of your opportunity to overlook it. We are sneaking of the way you felt when you first learned of the Fuehrer Order. Did you consider this order, even though you knew you had to carry it out, to be unjustifiable?

ANo, I never held the view that it was not legal, not valid,

QColonel, during your studies, particularly for your studies for the officer's examination, in your career in the Army and the SD, did you ever learn of the recognized rules and customs of war?

AOf course.

QHave you, in your career, ever heard of the Geneva and The Hague Conventions?

QDid you not know that Germany was a signatory power to both these Conventions?

AYes, I knew that.

QAlso, wasn't it known to you from your studies that the killing of civilians in occupied areas without trial is considered by international law and the laws of recognized warfare to be murder?

AI cannot reply to that, Mr. Prosecutor, because I simply don't know where murder starts and murder ends. It was no war of man against man. There were only exceptions. Tens of thousands of defenseless people were killed in all countries, and by all means. I, therefore, cannot say whether this is murder or whether this is not murder.

QAll right, you read these reports. You saw where reports of Einsatzgruppe D rounded up people, took them out and shot them without trial, did you not?

AI beg your pardon. I did not quite understand that.

QYou saw from the reports which you read that members of Einsatzgruppe D collected or rounded up people, and without trial sentenced then and shot them to death, did you not?

AYes, I realized that.

QDid you consider this to be murder?

ANo, I did not consider this murder because of a clear order by the commander in chief, the group commando, and by the commander of the Army.

QThe same unjustifiable order, the same order which you felt to be unjustifiable, namely because it was followed, you had no feeling that it vas murder?

AI did not say that I did not consider the order unjustifiable, but I said that owing to my inner attitude I considered it wrong and improper.

QAll right. Who first accuainted you with your tasks in Einsatzgruppe D?

AThe tasks in the Einsatzgruppe I got to know through my activity in Office 3. I knew about my position very well, that on the first day of marching in I could start reporting.

QDid you ever have a conference with General Ohlendorf as to what specific duties you would have in addition to your SD duties in the group headquarters?

AYes, I already said that Ohlendorf, for example, gave me the task of working together with the Army.

QHow soon did the reports of the activities of the different commando leaders begin to reach your desk?

AYou mean to say how long it took, Mr. Prosecutor?

QNo. The march toward Russia started around the 22nd day of June, 1941, did it not?

AYes, as far as I remember. we left a little later, but about that time, yes.

QAlong toward the end of June Einsatzgruppe D was on the march, was it not?

AEnd of June?

QEnd of June.

AEnd of June, yes.

QNow, in carrying out the Fuehrer Order, the Einsatzkommandos were commanded to action about what time?

AWhen they started, Mr. Prosecutor? I beg your pardon.

QI withdraw the question and ask you this question. After leaving Dueben and Pretsch do you remember the approximate date when you reached the Russian border or Russian territory?

AIn our first garrison in Pjatraneamt we were in the Russian territory, and one of the staffs and the Kommando 12 namely, remained at Pjatraneamt for sometime. Before that, the Army had left there, rather had withdrawn two advanced kommandos, and had also assigned them before we ever arrived at Pjatraneamt, but I myself, I cannot say the exact time I remained in the Rumanian territory in Pjatraneamt.

QAbout what time was this when the garrison was at Pjatraneamt, what month of 1941?

AIn July, 1941.

QAnd in July, 1941, had any of the kommandos of Einsatzgruppe D been committed against the enemies of the Reich?

AYes, two kommandos.

QNow, did they make reports of the actions which they were engaged in in July of 1941?

AReports came to the Einsatzgruppe only very late. Of course, the actual connection, the direct connection, between these two kommandos existed with the divisions assigned to them.

QAll right. Again I ask you the question, about what time did you see the first activity and situation report from an Einsatz Kommando?

APerhaps the middle of July, 1941.

QDid these reports show executions?

AI cannot exactly remember.

QCan you remember the first report that you ever saw that showed executions by a Kommando of Einsatzgruppe D?

ANot to that extent, but I would not be able to say which Kommando was the first one to report about it. I don't remember that.

QBut you are sure that you saw, in July of 1941, reports of executions by Kommandos?

AI believe that that was in July, 1941, but I cannot say,--I beg your pardon --may I say this -- which executions were concerned and who carried out such executions.

QWas it your conviction at this time that it was necessary to exterminate Jews, Gypsies and Communists?

ANo, that was not my conviction.

QDid you make any protest or did you tell anyone that it was not necessary to execute these people in July, 1941?

AMr. Prosecutor, very often we talked to UnterKommando leaders and to Ohlendorf about this and expressed our objection against this. I did not meet anyone among the leaders of the Einsatzgruppe who agreed to such an order.

THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, would you mind deferring for fifteen minutes now? The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.

(Recess was taken)

THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.

DR. ERICH M.MAYER (Attorney for the Defendant Braune):

I ask that the Defendant Braune be excused from tomorrow's session, in order that he may prepare his defense.

THE PRESIDENT:The Defendant Braune will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow so that he may prepare his defense.

DR. ERICH M. MAYER:Thank you very much.

THE PRESIDENT:Proceed, Mr. Walton.

Q. (By Mr. Walton): Colonel, just before the recess, I believe you stated on cross-examination that the Kommando Leader Zapp , Z-a-p-p, was the first man who told you of the Fuehrer Order, is that right?

A.Yes.

Q.Then you said that at some time later you had occasion to discuss this Order with General Ohlendorf. Did you also say that?

A.Yes.

Q.What was said at this discussion with General Ohlendorf?

A.During this conference the refusal, the revulsion, and the objection which everyone had about this order were discussed.

Q.Did you have anything to say at this discussion?

A.That was a conversation in which everyone had his say, yes.

Q.Did you express any regrets that this Order had to be carried out?

A.Yes, I regretted that such an Order, against which I objected, had been given.

Q.You told this to General Ohlendorf?

Q.Did you ask General Ohlendorf to relieve you and send you back to Berlin?

A.I did not do that because I saw no opportunity. As a soldier, it was completely clear to me that without any reason I could not simply be sent to Berlin, and therefore, I saw no possibility for Ohlendorf to do that. I had no personal connections with Streckenbach either. I hardly knew him.

Q.Could you have applied through regular channels for transfer, since you were considered too valuable to serve with the Wehrmacht? Couldn't you have applied through regular channels for transfer back to your job in Berlin?

A.In peacetime this was possible in Germany, but in time of war, I had to do my duty wherever I was ordered.

Q.You considered it your duty to carry out this Fuehrer Order, regardless of your own convictions?

A.I did not carry out this Fuehrer Order.

Q.You didn't know thaw though when you were in Duebin and Pretzsch whether you would have to carry it out or not?

A.No, of course not.

Q.That's where the discussion took place with General Ohlendorf, didn't it?

A.The reason was that in the meantime I had been informed of the Fuehrer Order and the kommando leaders and I discussed this matter with Ohlendorf.

Q.Let us pass on to another point. What was your principal duty when Einsatzgruppe D Headquarters moved into a town?

A.My mission was the same as If we were in a small locality. I immediately had to start making out reports about the attitude of the population and to make up reports about the fields which I have already mentioned.

Q.From what sources did you take samples of the morale of the population?

A.My sources were the reports of the kommandos.

Q.Did you ever negotiate yourself with the Jewish Council of Elders to find out what the morale of the population was?

A.I never negotiated with the Jewish Council of Elders.

A.Did you ever receive the registration lists of the Jewish Council of Elders?

A.No, I had nothing to do with that.

Q.Did you ever see any?

A.No, there was no such list in the staff.

Q.Were lists ever made up of gypsies, Soviet party members and commissars within an area?

A.I do not know. There were no such lists in the staff.

Q.You knew that these people were being given special treatment, because they were a threat to the security of the armed forces, did you not.

A.Yes, I knew that.

Q.As a matter of your own opinion, based on your experience as an army of officer and based on your service with Einsatzgruppe D, would not it have been an adequate security measure, both from a police and a military standpoint to have deprived all Jews and gypsies and Soviet party members who were not partisans of their liberty?

A.I cannot judge this, Mr. Prosecutor. I do not have the possibility of judging this.

Q.You had experience as an army officer, didn't you?

A.Yes, but not about such extensive questions which occur during wars between ideologies. My experience did not fit this situation.

Q.You read activity and situation reports of the kommandos, didn't you?

A.I have read many reports, yes.

Q.And it was then your job to determine what parts of those situation and activity reports should be extracted for transmission to Berlin, wasn't it?

A.The reports in which executions were listed......

Q.That's not what I asked you, Witness. I asked you if it was your job to extract from these reports.....

A.Yes.

Q. .......facts to be transmitted to Berlin. Now, these reports from the Einsatzkommando leaders gave you the situation and activities, didn't they?

A.They didn't describe it to me, but I got them, yes.

Q.Yes, and from your knowledge of the activities you were able to judge whether or not these people should be liquidated from a standpoint of security in your own mind, were you not?

A.N o, I could not judge that.

Q.Could not or would not?

A.I could not, because the facts at the particular place were never known to me.

Q.Did you ever personally conduct an investigation to determine what an individual Jew or gypsy had done in order to deserve to be executed?

A.I never did this during my entire stay in Russia.

Q.Did you ever see a report of investigation made by someone else that such people were guilty of some crime against the German forces?

A.No, I cannot recall........

Q.As a matter of fact, were ever such reports made in individual cases?

A.I cannot say, Mr. Prosecutor. I only saw the summarized reports which the kommandos sent on to the group. No documents were attached to this.

Q.You made inspections to the different kommando headquarters from time to time, did you not?

A.Yes.

Q.And you inspected the files in each kommando, didn't you?

A.No, I didn't inspect the files, but with my expert III I discussed matters in detail and I gave this man advice and guidance.

Q.When you made an inspection of a kommando alone and General Ohlendorf was not with you, would not your Inspection include all phases of the activity of a kommando?

A.No, they did not. I have already told.....

Q.How did you know then that the reports which they sent to you were true?

A.I could not know. I did not know. I did not know whether the reports were true.

Q.And you sent these reports on to Berlin as a true factual picture of the situation not knowing whether they were true or not?

A.I did not pass them on, but I drafted them and then submitted them to the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe for his signature.

Q.Yes, but you put in there facts which you had gotten from the reports of the kommando leaders?

A.I did not put them in there, but this was merely repeating whatever the kommando report said.

Q.That's right. Now, then, how did you know this to be the truth?

A.To determine that was not my job. In view of these reports, I neither had the right nor the mission to make any inquiries or to make any decisions or to make any inspections.

Q.All right. It was your responsibility to protect the Chief of Einsatzgruppe D in the matter of making report, was it not?

A.Yes.

Q.And to discharge this responsibility you had to put in these reports facts, did you not?

A.Yes, I had the responsibility.

Q.And in 12 months' time you never questioned a single fact which was submitted to you by a kommando leader?

A.My answer was not complete, Mr. Prosecutor. I had the responsibility that whatever was summarized in the report from the kommando or was added to another situation report that these two would agree. That was my responsibility, but it was never my mission to start investigations whether in this particular field this report was correct.

QNow, Colonel, the responsibility to see that these two reports were alike could have been the same for anyone who could use a typewriter, could it not?

AYes, that is not difficult.

QYes, and the lowest ranking man in your office who could use a typewriter could have performed that job, couldn't he?

ATo see whether the reports correspond, yes, of course.

QYes, and he could have taken them both in and submitted them to the General for his signature, couldn't he?

AIf he had the proper qualification, yes.

QAll right, you were a Lieutenant Colonel or an Obersturmbannfuehrer while you were with the group part of the time. Do you mean to tell me that it was a responsibility and a job of a Lieutenant Colonel or an Obersturmbannfuehrer to make the reports that a Private could make?

ANo. I do not mean to say this. Furthermore, I was not a Lieutenant Colonel during the whole time, was drafted as a major and later after five or six months was promoted. But in the spheres in which I made out the reports, namely my SD reports, I, of course, had to worry about these matters, and I did so.

QYou were made an Obersturmbannfuehrer in November 1941, weren't you?

QAnd you didn't leave Einsatzgruppe D until June of 1942?

QSo seven months of your twelve months service with Einsatzgruppe D you were a lieutenant colonel, were you not?

AYes. I merely said, "not during the entire time".

QAnd you were running a typewriter extracting and preparing reports during this time?

ANo, it wasn't that simple. I had to do the work which an information man would have to perform.

QDid the orders and requests from the 11th Army for assignments of the Einsatzgruppe come through you?

AMy mission was to keep the army currently informed. The daily orders or any orders were sent to the commandos from the army by the liaison officer who was with Army for that purpose.

QAll right, you were in effect then the SS liaison officer of Einsatzgruppe D with the army?

ANo. This was another major. The difference is the following: With the staff of the 11th Army for the entire period of the assignment there was an SS liaison officer who lived with the staff and who worked with the staff every day mostly in the office of the G-2. In the staff of Einsatzgruppe D it was my job first to make out the reports for the Army, to maintain contact with the agencies who got the reports, to carry on conferences with these agencies, to report results of partisan reconnaissance, and to work on all military decorations for members of the Einsatzgruppe D.

QHow often did you visit Army Headquarters in the discharge of your task?

ACertainly twice every week, where I must distinguish between the chief of staff and the agencies under his command so that it might happen that for example I would frequently visit the G-4 officer more frequently than I would visit any other officer.

QWhat was the task of the G-4 in the army?

Transcript for NMT 9: Einsatzgruppen Case

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