AMy relationship to Heydrich had not improved. Office VII did not seem important to me as far as the war was concerned, but the important thing was for me, that like every other German I believed I had to do my duty as a soldier.
QHow long were you with the Waffen-SS?
AFrom May, 1940, until April, 1942. actively from May, 1940, to June, 1941.
QWhere were you with the Waffen-SS?
AFrom May to September, 1940, I was in an artillery replacement battalion for retraining. From September to December I was in the war school, 1940, war academy. From December, 1940, to July, 1941, I was in the Division Reich.
QAnd where were you with this Division Reich?
AWith the Division Reich I was in France, Yugoslavia and at the eastern border.
QWhat was your position in the Waffen-SS ?
AI was artillery officer and chief of the artillery advance kommando.
QWhat military rank did you have in the Waffen-SS?
AThe last rank was lieutenant in the reserve.
QWhat did Heydrich say to it, that you were away in the Waffen-SS so long, was that agreeable to him?
ANo, it was not. He tried to call me back several times.
QAnd you were still able to remain with the Waffen-SS?
AMy commanders in the division knew that I was a soldier with all my heart, and that I wanted to remain with the division until the end of the war. Therefore they always designated me as indispensable for lack of officers.
QAnd when were you finally recalled after all?
ATwo days before the war with Russia began. On that date an order signed by Himmler arrived in the division headquarters that I was to be sent to Berlin.
QDid you immediately obey the order or did you make other attempts to remain with the troops?
AI tried by all means to stay with the troops. It was a matter of my honor not to leave the troops two days before the beginning of this War.
QAnd what did the Army say?
AThey went to my battalion commander and to my division commander, but I was informed that an order of Himmler had to be complied with and they could not do anything further.
QWhen did you leave the division?
AForty-eight hours before the outbreak of the war with Russia.
QWere you dismissed from the Waffen-SS?
ANo, I remained, my paybook and my equipment and all that belongs to it.
QWhy?
AMy battalion commander, as well as I, believed I would return to the division.
QAnd when did you arrive in Berlin?
AOn the day of the outbreak of the war, that is the 22nd of June, 1941.
QWas the outbreak of the war on the 22nd?
AYes, it was on the 22nd.
QWhere did you report in Berlin?
AI reported to my military superior, to the Waffen-SS agency, to the main office of the Waffen-SS. This referred me to the RSHA because the RSHA had called for me. Thereupon I reported to Heydrich.
QDid you know for what kind of service you were called away from the front?
ANo, the transfer had come as a complete surprise. I had no idea why I had been ordered to Berlin.
QWhat did Heydrich tell you about it?
AHeydrich didn't even receive me. His adjutant, Plotz, told me that I had bean with the Waffen-SS long enough, He intended to give me an archive command in Moscow which I would have to organize and set up . The kommandos of the Einsatz Staff Rosenberg and of the Battalion Kunzberg of the Foreign Office which were archive kommandos of other agencies were already on the road, and therefore I was to see to it and I should arrive in Moscow first. For this reason I was to take up a connection with the Chief of Einsatzgruppe B, Nebe, who was responsible for the Moscow area.
QYou were to arrive in Moscow first? What do you mean by that, with the combat troops?
AYes, of course, with the combat troops in order to take up these duties in Moscow as soon as the German troops arrived there.
QYour order to report to Nebe, was that to mean that your kommando would be subordinate to Einsatzgruppe B?
ANo, I had received my order from Heydrich. As Chief of Office VII, I could not be made subordinate to another chief of an office.
QDid you immediately say yes to Heydrich and accept this order without objection?
ANo, I asked the Adjutant Plotz to tell Heydrich that I would be compromised before the officers of my division if I would leave my troops shortly before the outbreak of war, and I asked that I be sent back to the division.
QWhat was Heydrich's reaction, did he consider this objection?
ANo, he refused it. Plotz told me it would be out of the question. It was up to me later to advance with my division.
QWas this a completely new type of order for your office for research and international politics, or were similar security orders given previously to this office?
AIn the year 1940 Heydrich had concluded an agreement with the office of Rosenberg. The office of Rosenberg by a special Fuehrer order had received the mission to secure certain - to confiscate certain objects of an artistic value in the occupied territory. As a result of the agreement between Heydrich and Rosenberg in the spring of 1940, the Security Police was given the right to confiscate certain documents and archive material from the time after 1933. This special order was given to Office VII in the spring of 1940.
QWas Office VII active according to this order, and where?
AYes, it was active in Paris, Brussels, the Hague, in Oslo and Athens and in Belgrade where it was busy with such archive orders.
QIn what form was this activity carried out?
ASmall commissions or kommandos were set up who had to secure these documents and had to evaluate them.
QYou mention several foreign cities where such activity was carried on. What was the activity, for example, in Paris?
AIn Paris the great political organizations were secured. All the ministries, together with the historical work of the foreign office, all those documents were photostated. A number of archive documents which were requested by offices in Berlin, such as the Surete or the Alliance Francaise, they were taken to Berlin. These are just a few excerpts from this work.
QBut I would like to avoid a misunderstanding which could arise from your answer. You said we secured the great political organizations.
ANo, we mean we secured the documents of the great political organizations.
QCould you yourself confiscate these?
AThe procedure was as follows: The confiscation was carried on by the Secret Field Police, a military organization, and then the evaluation was taken up by the Kommandos of Office VII.
DR. ULMER:I am referring to a translation error, "confiscation",
THE INTERPRETER:They are arguing here about the translation of the word "Beschlagnahme" which to me means confiscation.
THE WITNESS:The difference is not great. Confiscation would be a final taking away, and here we mean confiscation for the purposes of evaluation and then the documents are returned.
THE PRESIDENT:Do we know that those documents were returned?
DR. ULMER:Yes.
THE WITNESS:Not all documents were taken away. Mostly they were left in the buildings More examined, and were then again returned to the offices.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, would you say then that it was a temporary seizure of documents?
THE WITNESS:Yes, with those which were not carried away from the place of origin it was a temporary seizure, yes. Others, of course, which were needed in Berlin were confiscated.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes. Well, then, you might make that distinction between confiscation, where the documents were taken and not returned, and temporary seizure where the documents were merely temporarily taken for the purpose of study, scrutiny, and then returned.
THE WITNESS:Yes.
Q.Thus you received the order from Heydrich to set up a similar kommando for Moscow?
A.Yes.
Q.Did Heydrich or his deputy issue a written order to set up such a kommando?
A.No, this was not customary. The setting up of such kommandos was an exclusive function of Office VII.
Q.It is not customary then. Did office VII carry out its task without Heydrich issuing an order?
A.Yes.
Q.Thus this became a work of experts in Office VII?
A.Yes.
Q.Was there a difference between this kommando to be organized for Moscow and the former archive Kommandos of Office VII?
A.No, not their missions. No, there was no difference only in the importance of the objective, the interest in the Soviet Russian documents was especially great. For this reason I was given the mission in Moscow.
Q.Was Moscow especially important within the interest for these Russian documents?
A.Well, it was known that the Russian centralization has Moscow as the head of all important agencies of the State, of the Party, and of the cultural life and likewise, the way in Paris, Brussels, and the Hague were important for their countries, so Moscow was the city in Russia, which was the city in Russia which was most important.
Q.How did you prepare this Kommando?
A.I informed my co-workers in Office VII. I gave them the orders to prepare the materials necessary for Moscow , that is, city maps guides and organizations there and the other materials which are necessary to carry out such a mission. Furthermore, I reserved the right to ask for these co-workers.
Q.When was that?
A.After I had made contact with Nebe, which had been ordered by Heydrich.
Q.Where Was Nebe at that time?
A.Nebe was in Warsaw.
Q.What were the results of your conferences with Nebe?
A.Nebe was not very agreeable to this mission. He already had thought himself of securing the documents in Moscow and he didn't think a special kommando was necessary.
DR. ULMER:Your Honor, now we will have to go into detail about this advance Kommando Moscow, the actual Count I. I think this would be a good point to recess.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal agrees with you. The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. ULMER:
QBefore the recess, witness, I talked about your preliminary discussion with Nebe and you said that Nebe had not been pleased, that you received this particular assignment, and you have said that he thought that the security of files could be done by, and that he did not need a special commander for this purpose. How did you react to this answer of Nebe's?
AI returned to Berlin once more and asked to be relieved of my assignment.
QDid you go to Heydrich and speak to Heydrich about it?
AYes, but he did not receive me. But he said that he had given me the assignment, the order, and I had to carry it out.
QHow did he let you know - in writingg?
AThrough his adjutant, Ploetz.
QDid you express your objections to Heydrich again through Ploetz?
AAs I have already said, at that time I had no positive relation towards Heydrich. For a long time after I tried not to return to Berlin and to shirk from this duty, and I was certain that if I now made any moral objections once more I had to reckon on very severe measures against myself.
QYou mean arrest?
AThat, too.
QYou then went back to Warsaw, did you?
AYes.
QDid Nebe now agree?
ANo. Nebe again made some objections and he said that now he had to discuss it first with the chief of the authority in Minsk, the AOK, which is the superior commando to the Army. That was General Field Marshal von Kluge.
QWhere was he? Was he in Warsaw?
ANo, he was in Minsk.
QAnd did Nebe actually talk to Kluge?
AYes, Nebe spoke with Kluge on the 6th of June in Minsk.
QWas it about this Archives Commando?
AYes, it was about this Archives Securing Commando.
QWas von Kluge in agreement with this?
AYes, Kluge agreed. He referred him for further discussion to his major in 1-c Helmdaeh. He was a major in the general staff.
QWhat were your further steps then?
AI sent a teletype message to Berlin from Minsk, and I asked for a meeting and a discussion of the departmental experts.
QAnd did they arrive?
ANo, only two of these arrived. Streckenbach said that he could not dispense with any more experts, and the rest should have been taken from reserve leader corps of the Einsatzgruppen.
QWho was Streckenbach?
AStreckenbach was the Department Chief 1 of the SD. He was in charge of the personnel department.
QOffice I was only personnel?
AOffice l was only for personnel administration.
QWhat did you do then under the circumstances?
AI was perfectly clear about the fact that I could not go back to Berlin again. For this reason I declared myself satisfied with the state of affairs and I asked Nebe to put at my disposal a few interpreters whom he had in Moscow.
QWhere were these taken from, from what Commando, from what detachment?
ATwo arrived from Berlin. Two of them were actually from the staff, two came from the detachment VII-B, and two from the Einsatzkommando IX.
QTwo, did you say, from Group Staff?
AYes, two from the Group Staff.
QThank you. And how were they sub-divided, according to their origin?
AMahnke and Augsburg came from Berlin. Engelhard and Siebert came from the Staff. Klingelhoeffer and Noack from Commando VII-B, and Luther and Feldmann from Einsatzkommando IX.
QMahnke and Augsburg, e.g. were scientists?
AYes, they were scholars, and they were also interpreters.
QFrom what point of view had these people been chosen - people who were put at your disposal?
AThey either had to have local knowledge of Moscow, interpreters or they had to have some scientific knowledge of archives.
QDid the Archive Commando have a special name?
AYes. I just called it "Advance Commando "- "Vorkommando Moscow" - in order to make clear its special character and its special purpose.
QThe special purpose and character is supposed to be expressed in the preliminary syllable "Vor"?
AYes.
QAnd why, and for what purpose, were you in a position to give this Commando a name?
AI was in a position to do so because everything that was in connection with this particular Commando - armaments, clothing, giving of names - everything, was my assignment as the chief of Office VII.
QHow did your preparations take place, the preparations for the assignment?
AAs I have already told you, I collected and prepared material for Moscow and had such material prepared which I took with me. On the basis of this material I appointed these men and prepared them for their task.
QWhat kind of material was it?
AAs I have already said, there were maps of guides in Russian and in German. There were statements, and drafts, and distribution plans of Ministries which gave a full picture of the whole administrative system of Moscow.
QAnd how did you assign your subordinates according to this material? Can you give me further details upon this?
AAll the Ministries - or, as they say in Russian, the Commissariats, were selected. All the organizations - that is, the Bolshevist party organizations, all public cultural organizations, archives, libraries, institutes, were established. Degrees of their importance were established. Individual offices and institutes, were marked down on the map accordingly and these materials were passed on to one particular expert to work out in his particular sphere.
QNow questions as to this particular point in the indictment. Did you take part in the preliminary discussions in the setting up of tasks for the Einsatzgruppe, at Berlin, Pretsch or Duben?
AAt that time I was still at the front and I did not know that I was to go to Berlin.
QDid you receive any information from Heydrich, Streckenbach, or some other representatives, or did you receive instructions about the execution order?
AAs I have already explained, I neither discussed, nor talked, with Heydrich or Streckenbach before my departure or even after my return. My sole discussion was by telephone. It was a discussion with the adjutant Ploetz. Therefore, I received no instruction from anyone in Berlin concerning the execution order.
QDid Nebe give, or personally pass on, any instructions to you, or just information concerning the execution order?
ANo, not even Nebe. Nebe gave me neither instructions nor information, neither in Warsaw nor in Minsk.
QWell, then, before your march with the Advance Commando Moscow, did you receive any knowledge about the execution order?
AYes.
QWhere?
A when the leaders of other Commandos arrived, these questions naturally were mentioned and were discussed, but I myself - and I have to make a point in stating this - had no knowledge about the general elimination of Jewery, especially about the extermination of women and children... As I said, I had no knowledge and never received any knowledge.
Q well, then, this execution order for the Advance Commando did it ever get the assignment, or, in your opinion, could the Einsatzkommando have received such order for executions?
ANo. The advance Commando Moscow was special commando of the Reich Security Main Office. It was not an Einsatzkommando. And as a consequence of this, there was no need for me to pass on any instructions or give any orders.
QWhen was the establishment of the actual foundation of the Vorkommando Moscow concluded?
AThat was on the 14th of July. At that time I left Minsk.
QThat is, with the Advance Commando Moscow?
AYes, with the Advance Commando Moscow.
QWhat was your next destiny?
AThat was the Division Reich. It was a combat division actually, Combat Division for Moscow.
QWhere was it situated?
AThe Division Reich was in the vicinity of Smolensk. About the garrison I was to find out from OAK-4.
QWhere was the army under AOK-4?
AThat was stationed in Tolochino. That is half way to Smolensk.
QDid you actually move there, to Tolochino? Were you stationed there?
AYes, I was stationed right in the middle of the combat position of AOK-4, on an estate, on a farm.
QWhen was that?
AThat was on the 16th of July.
QDid you have discussions and negotiations with the AOK-4 then, and who were the men you negotiated with?
AI negotiated with I-c of the AOK-4 with a major of the general staff, vonHelmbach.
Q what was the subject of the negotiations between you and Helmbach?
AI reported to Helmbach concerning the discussion Nebe - Kluge. Furthermore, I gave him a full explanation of the purpose of the Advance Commando Moscow for the securing of archives material in Moscow. I furthermore gave him an explanation that it was of major importance to reach Moscow with the actual combat troops in order to secure the material undamaged and undestroyed, and in conclusion I asked him to issue a decree, an army decree, so that the advance units would be informed about this and would be able to support me.
QYou drew the attention of Helmbach to the special tasks, the special assignment of your Commando, as the Commando for archive securing?
AI explained to him unambiguously, and I remember him asking about the consistency of the Commando, whether I had enough experts, and he asked me how I would behave in Moscow, and he was fully in agreement with this, in general.
Q what did he do? How did he express his approval in front of you?
AYes, he said he was in agreement, and he approved, and promised me that he would issue this army task, and he just said that he would issue it when Moscow actually would be taken, in due course.
QWas he in agreement with all you told him, to that extent that he explained to you and told you details about the military position of the garrison and direction of the Division Reich...did he talk to you about this?
AYes, he gave me a detailed report about the military situation. He explained to me about the fighting around Smolensk, which had been particularly severe, and for the first time had stopped the quick advance of the German troops, and he also mentioned in detail the garrison and the location of the Division Reich.
This was in a gap, a little further from Smolensk in the so-called Djelna Curve. He said that it would be good to wait for a few days until the AOK-4 itself would march into Smolensk as the road had been interrupted on various points.
QWhat did you do then in Tolochino?
AI said that I arrived there on the 16th. I spoke to Helmbach on the 12th about, I sent a few quartermasters, in advance - and on the 23d I marched off in the direction of Smolensk with the AOK-4.
QThen you stayed in Tolochino for quite some time. Did you have further discussions with Helmbach?
AI had two further discussions with Helmbach. One discussion just shortly before we reached Smolensk, because Smolensk was still being bombarded, a position had been built up in the vicinity of Smolensk; and a further discussion I had with Helmdach in the middle of August, which I shall come back to eventually.
QNow, when you were in Tolochino, did you carry out any executive activity?
AThat was not my assignment. Furthermore, I was in a combat zone. There was no possibility to carry out any executive activities.
QAfter Smolensk you said that you marched to Smolensk on the 23d of July 1941 --- you sent quartermasters in advance, didn't you?
AYes.
QWhat was the situation when you reached Smolensk, when you took up quarters there?
ASince the middle of July -- severe fighting had been going on in the vicinity around Smolensk - the eastern part of the town still was in the hands of the Russians. Until the 4th of August there were heavy artillery fights, and practically until the 4th of August the town was bombarded by an immense number of Russian batteries.
QTherefore, you were immobile - at least during the first days in Smolensk?
AIn any case it was inadvisable to go for walks within Smolensk. Only the water carriers were sent out to fetch back water at the wells.
QWhere about were you stationed in Smolensk?
AThe Quartermaster had taken the quarters in a police building. That was one of the few buildings which had not been fully occupied by troops, because it was only three hundred meters from the foremost front lines.
QYou say the police building, that is of the former Russian administration?
AYes, of the former Russian administration.
QWere there other units in this building?
AThere was a signal unit, a workshops company.
QDid you then go to your Division Reich from Smolensk?
AOn my way to Smolensk I met the Chief of the ammunition unit of Division Reich, and I had given him a letter to the commander of Division Reich, in which I explained the purpose of my being on the way there, and that I should take up contact with him.
QDid the commander react to this?
AThe commander sent me a motorcycle courier to Smolensk who informed me that the division would be withdrawn from the Djelna area, that it would be stationed there and that I should not go to beyond the Djelna curve.
QWho was this commander?
AHe was Sturmbannfuehrer Wunder.
QWhen did you talk to him?
AI immediately went along with this motorcycle courier, and I met the division while they were marching.
QThat title of Sturmbannfuehrer is that equal to a colonel?
AHe had the rank of major, he was younger.
QDid you explain to the Sturmbannfuehrer Wunder your intention to advance to Moscow with the Division Reich?
AYes, I did say it in several discussions. I called on the division while it was stationed there, as well as the Commander Wunder, and some of his officers came to see me in Smolensk in order to clarify this question.
QWhat did you arrange with the Division?
AI arranged with the Division that we would advance with their Division to Moscow, that I would receive fuel and rations from the Division and that I would furthermore be able to use their signal service.
QWho is "We" would advance with their Division?
AThat is the Advance Kommando Moscow.
Q What did you and your leaders do in Smolensk?
AAs we had taken up the rest position in Smolensk, we had nothing to do for some time. Therefore I decided to inspect Smolensk which is a large city in the Russian territory and to look for archives and other valuable documentary material.
QWhat did you do then for example?
AI inspected the archives of the town. The archives of the administrative district; all cultural organizations, institutions, universities, and other places like churches. Either as I said , I looked at them, and inspected them, or I marked them with notices and protective notices.
QWhat were these protective notices you stuck there?
AFor the purpose of my assignment in Moscow I got a printing shop in Minsk to print proclamations in the German and Russian languages which proclaimed to the population and soldiers that certain articles were under protection. For experience had taught that archives and documents were deliberately destroyed by the indigenous population and sometimes by our own troops through negligence.
QYou also spoke about protection of the churches, in what way.
AThere were two big churches in Smolensk. One was the famous Cathedral of Smolensk which by the Russians had been turned into a museum. It was full of wonderful treasures such as crowns and other objects which were completely exposed. The other was a very famous and beautiful old Russian wooden church which was used as a central archive for the Russian Government.
I turned this cathedral over to a Russian orthodox minister and I had the objects taken away from the other church and I turned this church over to the catholic priest. The reason was to safeguard these treasures from plunder and spoliation.
QDid you order any police actions or executions to be carried out in Smolensk?
AI repeat that this was not my task, and in addition to this, as I have already said, the city was under artillery fire until the 4th of July, the whole town before the retreat of the Russians, was evacuated and dismantled and there were only a few inhabitants remaining who as a consequence of the battle had gone into hiding. The rest had escaped, and fled to the vicinity of the town of Smolensk. The town was practically empty of all population.
QTherefore, no police actions or executions were carried out?
ANo.
QNebe, and the group-staff had remained, isn't that so? You were alone with the VKN?
AYes, the group itself was in Minsk.
QDid Nebe arrive with his group-staff in Smolensk and at what date?
ANebe arrived in Smolensk with the group-staff on 5 August 1941.
QWhere were the accommodations for him and his group-staff?
AAs there were no buildings left, and there was no room in the remaining buildings, he moved into another wing of the same building.
QWhat kind of contact did you have with Nebe?
AI had no official contact with him because I was in the Reich Security Main Office. I did not look for such a point of contact either, because I had to deal with the marching of the Division Reich, and I was definitely marching with them.
QWere there any actual personal tensions between you and Nebe?
AAfter Nebe had arrived at Smolensk, he requested the services of the interpreters of my command for his purposes.
QFor what purposes were you to place them at his disposal?
AHe wanted translation work to be done. He wanted contact with the town administration, and that in one case he even wanted interpreters for the police commander.
QFor what purposes?
AFor the Field Kommandatur.
QFor interpreting purposes?
AYes.
QDid you object to these requests of Nebe which he had made with reference to your kommando?
AYes, I exppessly objected to any service for the group-staff on the part of my interpreters without my special approval. Furthermore, for reasons of our being stationed together in the same building, I demenaded strict separation between the group-staff and my own unit.
QThat, of course, increased the tension?
AYes.
QWhy then did you not simply leave Smolensk?
AI already said, that the severe fighting in the vicinity of Smolensk created a completely new military position, a position which was decisive for the final phase of the campaign of this year; the Army and motorized units of the AOK-IV were taken away from the advanced direction of Moscow and were put into the position in the direction south of Chernikov-Kiev in order to eliminate the endangered flank. Among those transferred troops was also the Division Reich. A discussion with I/c Major I.G. Helrmbach in the middle of August, it must have been the 15th of August, revealed that Moscow would not be taken within a measurable space of time, therefore, the advance kommando Moscow became idle for weeks, even months.
QDid anybody have the plan to give Advance Kommando Moscow a protective assignment?
AWell, Nebe tried to give me a special order, and thus to incorporate my kommando into the Einsatzgruppe B.
QYou mean the whole command?
AWell, the VKM.
QWhat kind of thing was this special task going to be?
AHe suggested to me I should take over the partisan combatting in the East territory, that is in the vicinity of Smolensk. With this, of course, the nature of the assignment of my VKM would have changed completely and I would have been forced to most severe measures.
QDid you accept?
ANo, I refused, because I was aware of the fact that if I had accepted it I would have been his subordinate.
QWell, what did you do?
AI sent a teletype message to Berlin, and asked for my release.
QWhere did you send this teletype message?
AThat is to the Reich Mein Security office in Berlin.
QYou mean the Reich Mein Security Office to Streckenbach?
AYes, the office of Streckenbach.
QDid you choose another way also?
ABesides, I sent a personal letter to Streckenbach by special courier, in which I detailed my position, and the reasons for the wish for my release.
QWhat was the result, were you released?
AYes, the order for my release came to my hands on 19th of August. On 20th of August I left Smolensk and went to Berlin.
QWho received the order?
QThe group received it, that is Group-C.
QIt was to you, was it not?
AYes, it was to me.
QDid you take leave from Nebe? Or did you just leave without much ado?
AYes, I took leave of Nebe, and on this occasion I passed onto him the responsibility for Vorkommando Moscow.
QDid you as leader of the Vorkommando Moxcow send reports to your superior command office?