AYour Honor, I think I can say that Streckenbach announced an order because he was obliged to do so. It is possible that a man is obligated to announce an order without approving it himself. Even a soldier will criticize orders -
QVery well, I understand that. I did not know that when Streckenbach gave the order originally that he had any reservations about it, but from what you tell me now, I am to believe that Streckenbach at no time approved of the order, but merely passed it on, because it was his duty as an officer to do so.
AYour Honor, I cannot describe the feelings of Streckenbach. I merely know them from the situation as it developed in this conversation which I had with him.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. Thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION -- Resumed BY DR. HORLICK-Hochwald:
QHerr Schulz, I want to ask you in this connection one question and I would like you to answer this question first with "yes" or "no" and then you can explain it to us. Did Streckenbach on the 28th or 29th, when you told him your story about Rasch, tell you that a Fuehrer Order existed or not?
AYes, he told me about the fact that the Fuehrer order existed.
QSo you change your testimony. In Direct, you said he told you that he would refer to Heydrich and that a few days later he came back from Heydrich and told you then that there was a Fuehrer Order existing.
AMr. Prosecutor, in reference to the fact of the existing Fuehrer Order I did not want to cinfine myself to a date, but merely wanted to mention the fact that Streckenbach did make known to me the existence of this Fuehrer Order.
QSo he told you immediately before he spoke to Heydrich that a Fuehrer Order existed, is that right?
AI cannot say definitely, I don't know.
QSo you cannot say whether he promised you to make an intervention with Heydrich about these happenings in the East or whether he told you immediately that nothing can be done in this respect, as an order of Hitler was just given him?
AThis possibility existed, Mr. Prosecutor. May I only point out that I really cannot remember the conversation exactly. I can only remember the fact that Streckenbach was aroused by the way in which this order was issued and that he also promised me he would speak with Heydrich to clarify these matters. The possibility exists that he also told me at that time that it cannot be changed, but whether this was before the conversation with Heydrich or after the conversation with Heydrich I cannot remember, even though I have a pretty good memory.
QAll right. You testified here that you had a very close official relationship with Streckenbach, is that correct?
AYes.
QHow were your personal relations?
AThe personal relationship with Streckenbach was very friendly.
QDid Streckenbach know that you were too soft for such a job with an Einsatzkommando?
AYes, I think so, Mr. Prosecutor. This reproach of being soft pursued me for a long time, but it was unjust, for in order to clarify these mixed feelings I tried to describe these concepts of brutality, of harshness, of goodness and softness of leader and superior to my students in the training course.
Streckenbach knew that I was absolutely an opponent of any brutality measures and this fact, Mr. Prosecutor, can be proven for the entire time of my 25 years in Police work.
QAll right, you spoke to Streckenbach three times. He was the man who handed down to you the order that you would have to take the command of an Einsatzkommando. You were on excellent official and personal terms with him and he never told you what kind of tasks you would be confronted with. Do you want to comment on that?
ANo, Mr. Prosecutor. The message that I should take over an Einsatzkommando reached me in the same way as it reached all others. I received a teletype message just as everybody else. Streckenbach did not tell me in any way that this assignment included the execution of human beings.
QHe never told you?
ANever.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWhen did you learn that it included the execution of human beings?
AI heard about that when the order of Dr. Rasch was made known in Lemberg. Here the Commissar Order was announced and explained in the building in Lemberg, according to which all Communists and Functionaries, and all others, whom I mentioned in the direct examination -- This order was made known at Lemberg and then it was explained what a tremendous danger the functionaries represented in Russia.
QVery well. Very well. How much time elapsed between the receipt of the teletype which merely informed you you were to take command of an Einsatzkommando and when you learned the exact nature of the duties you were to execute?
AThe teletype message, that is, the order to take over an Einsatzkommando, reached me in May 1941, and the announcement of the order in Lemberg took place in the beginning of July.
QWhen?
AThe beginning of July.
QSo that at least 30 days or one month expired when you were entirely ignorant of what was expected of you as the leader of a very important expedition?
AI had no idea that executions were to be carried out, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
CROSS-EXAMINATION -- RESUMED BY DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD:
QDid your other superiors, Heydrich, for instance, and Himmler, also know that you were too soft as you expressed it?
AI just don't knew, Mr. Prosecutor.
QYou said it was generally known.
AThis reproach was made to me frequently.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Horlick-Hochwald, I don't know whether I misunderstood the witness, but my recollection is that he said that he was reputed as being too soft and then he added, "But this observation was unjust," Did I understand you to say that, Witness?
THE WITNESS:Yes, insofar as I didn't get a chance yesterday to develop this subject further -
THE PRESIDENT:No, just about 15 minutes ago you said that "Everybody said I was too soft, but it was unjust to say that."
THE WITNESS:I consider this reproach of softness toward me as wrong, because, if I may express it this way, I see a difference between goodness arid softness. Softness is something bad. Goodheartedness is not.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well, I merely wanted to call Mr. HorlichHochwald's attention and not to say that the witness was soft, with the assumption that he admitted softness. He absolutely denies softness.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: So I withdraw my question.
Q (By Mr. Horlich-Hochwald) I now would like to turn to the events in Lemberg. You have stated in your testimony that according to the information you received from the Defendant Rasch and according to your own information, a great number of citizens of Lemberg, Ukrainians and Poles, had been killed in the Lemberg prison, is that correct?
AYes, that's right.
QMoreover, there were many groups of German soldiers, and especially officers, Which had been found mutilated.
AThat is right.
QThe killing allegedly had been carried out by the Jewish population of Lemberg under the leadership of officials of the Jewish faith. Is that correct?
AYes, Jewish Commissars. I would like to emphasize here that these are not my own findings, but it was the description which Dr. Rasch gave us, and it was evident that there was great tension between the Jewish population and the rest. These are merely facts which I can state here.
QIn connection with this incident, about which Rasch told you, I would like to quote your testimony: "The militia had received an order to arrest the Jewish popjlation of Lemberg and also those who were suspected of having participated in these killings." Does that mean all Jews in Lemberg were arrested?
AWell, at any rate, a very great part: on the field in Lemberg, as I have described it, I saw that there were about 2,000 to 3,000 male Jews among whom there were also some Non-Jews. I cannot give you the ratio, but these people had been arrested.
QYou said that the Jews were arrested whether they were suspected or not, just for the simple reason that they were Jews, is that right?
AYes, I must say that this possibility exists, for in this large number it is out of the question that an arrest was carried out only after thorough investigation.
QYou said that the Hitler order was issued which ordered reprisals as to the killings of the Ukrainians and Poles. Did I understand you correctly?
AThat's right, Mr. Prosecutor. The way Dr. Rasch described it to us, a special Fuehrer Order arrived from Berlin but the way it was told to us it was meant only as a reprisal measure for Lemberg.
QIt was a special order then for this one incident? Do I understand you correctly?
AYes, a special order for the special case of Lemberg.
QWhen was this order issued?
AI cannot give you the exact date, but it must have been in the first days of July. As far as I remember, I arrived in Lemberg about the 2d of July and it must have been around the 3d or 4th of July, but I really do not know the exact day.
QIt was immediately after you came to Lemberg?
AYes, at least very soon afterwards, but certainly not on the same day.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many Poles and Ukrainians were killed, approximately?
AAccording to what Dr. Rasch said, it was supposed to have been about 5,000 people.
QAnd how many Germans?
AI cannot give you the number. I don't know.
QApproximately.
AI cannot even give you an approximate number, because I don't know.
QCan you inform the Tribunal for which act the reprisals were ordered and carried out, for the killing of the Poles and the Ukrainians or for the mutilation or eventual killing of the members of the German forces?
AWhether this order was specific I cannot say, for I merely know about the fact of the order. I don't know its contents.
QIn other words, you don't know which. These are two completely different actions. You as an old police officer will certainly understand that: On the one hand, killing of civilian population before the German Wehrmacht came to Lemberg. On the other hand, killing of members of the armed forces, is it not? So you do not know for which of these two acts the reprisals were ordered.
AIf I remember correctly, it was a reprisal measure ordered for the entire killings in Lemberg.
QThat means for the killing of the Ukrainians and Poles and for the German, soldiers?
AYes, I think so.
QDid Rasch tell you anything when he submitted to you this special reprisal order that beside this special reprisal order there was a general order of Hitler that all Jews, Gypsies, and Communists should be killed?
AThat order was not issued in Lemberg at the time, for, on the contrary, only the order was announced, which I mentioned here, namely, the so-called Commissar Order, excerpts from the Barbarossa Order, and I can remember exactly that when these orders were announced, one of them lay before him in a printed form and that it was top secret.
QWho of the defendants was present in Lemberg when Rasch communicated this order?
AOf the defendants I do not believe anyone was there. I cannot say definitely. Kommando 4b had arrived there first, but had continued very soon afterwards. Then Kommando 6 was there, and how many other Kommandos were there while passing through, I cannot say. Furthermore a large Einsatz Staff from the General Government was there.
QYou don't remember any of the defendants being present?
AI cannot say definitely.
QYou stated here in direct examination that you limited this unlimited order of reprisals and the Commissar Order by requesting the proof of the guilt of the people who were to be executed, is that correct?
AYes, that is right.
QWhat exactly, Herr Schulz, do you mean by that?
AWith this I want to express that the order, as it was given and as far as it concerned the functionaries, did not have any restriction. If one did not limit this concept of functionary, it could be interpreted wilfully. In order to avoid this wilfullness in interpretation, I demanded that in every case guilt would have to be determined. This, of course, was not necessary with the others, such as saboteurs and looters, for a saboteru has already committed a punitive action, otherwise one could not designate him as a saboteur.
QThat is in connection with the Commissar Order, as I understood it, is that right?
AYes, that' right.
QI am also interested in how you limited the reprisal order. Will you tell that to the Tribunal?
AA limitation for the reprisal measure was impossible on my part, for I had no competence nor opportunity to limit or correct this order in any way, for the execution of this order was exclusively in the hands of Dr. Rasch, personally.
QDo you know whether these people were afforded any kind of a trial before they were executed?
AI can only stae the fact as I saw it, that witnin this building in which we were billeted, and withe the participation of the Lemberg population, probably some officials of member of the police, interrogations took place continuously from morning to night.
QI think you did not understand my question.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Hochwald, I think it is very clear to the Tribunal that there was no trial in the accepted understanding of that word. And he has indicated what they did. They interrogated th suspects, and then made their decisions.
DR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes, sir. I withdraw my question, then. Well, did not-
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Hochwald. I am informed that in about two minutes the film will have consumed itself. So let us take our recess now.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
DR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: May I proceed, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If I am not mistaken, Herr Schulz, you answered the question of the Tribunal as to how long a time was at the disposal of the investigating authorities in Lemberg, - at the utmost 48 hours. Is that correct?
AYour Honor, I said that I did not know the exact time. As far as I recollect I followed my statement, I arrived on the second of July, and if I remember it correctly on the following day the arrests were made, and according to my memory, and also according to the statement I made, on the 6th or 7th day after I had arrived in Lemberg, I went on. As the day of our march was the day after the execution had taken place, the interval between that day of our arrival and the day of our march must have been the day of the interrogations.
QWho carried out these investigations?
AThe investigations were carried out by the Commando which was in change, and a larger unit of the General Government.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many investigating officers took part in this investigation?
ANo, I cannot say exactly, Mr. Prosecutor, because I did not take part myself in these matters and I did not investigate about them, but I assume that there must have been over 50 to 60 people taking part in that. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QYou mean investigating?
AYes, those people who carried out the investigations. That is the number which I can estimate, approximately. Those people were in the building, but I cannot say that with certainty.
QDid you have a staff of 50 or 60 investigators accompanying the Einsatzkammando?
AYour Honor, all police officials were consulted and took part in it, as far as I can see. I may add here that I cannot say with certainty -- in the building there was quite a lot of traffice, as it were, and I saw that many police officials took part in these investigations and interrogations. I cannot say anything further, your Honor.
QHow many were there in your command?
AIn my Commando I had about 23 members of the Security Police, and about 50 members of the regular police. They latter were, of course, also trained police officials which were trained in ordinary police service.
QSo that you had a personnel of 73 people?
ANo, that was not my staff, your Honor.
QIn your Commando there were 73?
AWell, those were trained as police officials, yes; they were professional police officials.
QNO, I am asking you, how many men did you have in your command?
AYou mean the total number?
QYes, the total number.
AIncluding the drivers?
QYes, all -
AApproximately 200, your Honor. Of these, there were about 50 drivers.
Q 50 drivers. Give me the breakdown of those 200 people. 50 drivers, and then what?
AAccording to my memory, in order to name a round figure 25 members of the Security Police, that is, State Police, Criminal Police, and SD. Furthermore, there were about 50 drivers.
QYou have given me the 50 drivers.
AThen there were approximately, again I can only say approximately 50 members of the Waffen-SS and 50 members of the regular police, and there were a few additional members who were interpreters. That is approximately the breakdown.
QYes. Now, excluding the drivers - you then had, let us say, approximately about 150 men?
AThat is correct, your Honor.
QYes; now, of these 150, one-third were engaged in this interrogation work, because you said 50 to 60.
AYour Honor, this number I mentioned because I saw that number of people in the building. Of my own Commando men had been assigned to this. My Commandoo that is, No. 5, did not participate in the interrogations in Lemberg. My Commando was ready to march because I had been given the order to march off as soon as possible. Only because of these happenings in Lemberg I was prevented from marching on.
THE COURT:But your kommando participated in the executions?
ADuring the afternoon of the execution day I was ordered, or at least my kommando was ordered to take part in these executions.
QNow, you were very much concerned to see that no innocent people Were executed?
ACertainly, Your Honor.
QYes, but why is it you did not take a more active interest in the interrogations. You say you don't know who conducted the investigations; no one from your kommando sat in on the investigations, and you have no knowledge of what the investigations really brought out. Now is it you did not interest yourself a little more, since you were so concerned about seeing to it that no innocent people suffered?
AYour Honor, from the very beginning I could not assume that my kommando had anything to do whatever with this task, because I have already mentioned that my kommando was ready to march, and should have marched on.
QThen why -
A (continuing) The distribution of the task was subordinate to the commander who was in charge of the task, generally, and who was in the same building, and who also made the necessary decisions. I believe that he would have disapproved very strongly if I had also taken part in the officialship.
QWhile you were personally satisfied that only the guilty ones were executed, you do not of your own personal knowledge know whether they were all guilty, or not. - - just a moment, the switch is turned off, I am getting only the German.
AWe were even talking about this thing and he told me and informed me that the individual cases were examined.
QDid you get an individual report on each subject that was to be executed by your kommando?
ANo, Your Honor, my Einsatzkommando was only an executive organ.
QWere you given a list of those who were to be executed?
ANo, Your Honor, I was not given that. The supervision of all of these executions was under the Einsatzkommando-VI, and even the investigation of the people charged with crimes was carried out by this kommando, and that on that day my kommando only had to supply the execution squad, having received an immediate oredr from Dr. Rasch.
QHow did you know who was to be executed?
AWe were informed of this by Dr. Rasch, that is, that the participants were to be executed as reprisals. I am not informed, whether when reprisal measures are carried out,there arises the question of guilt at all, whether it is of any importance whatsoever, I can not decide that.
QYes, so that sofar as you personally know, you proceeded with the execution of individuals whose guilt you personally were not as sure of?
AI only knew the cases had been examined. The order had been given to examine also these cases, and I had assumed that the careful decision, of the Einsatzgruppe chiefs were right and that the executions which were carreid out were justified, once they were reprisals
QYes.
AI can not say any more about this.
QYou had no reasons to doubt the decision made by your fellow officers?
ANo, I didn't doubt it, mainly because I could observe, Your Honor that some of the arrested people were always separated. From these observations I had to assume that these people who were separated had been examined and interrogated.
QWere these executees delivered to you, or did you march to a certain place where they were awaiting your arrival?
AThe executions took place in a forest in the neighborhood of Lemberg. I had to deploy my Einsatzkommado there to carry out these executions. The victims, or the people who were to be executed were taken there by trucks in consignments of eighteen to twenty people, or they were taken there by Einsatzkommando-VI, or by people of the general government, I don't know exactly, and the militia also handled the burying of these people.
I already said my kommando was only in charge of the carrying out of the executions.
QHad Dr Rasch already announced his order, the one you complained of to Streckenbach prior to the executions?
ANo, Your Honor, this order was not made known at Lemberg. This order, which I complained about, was the one proclaimed at the beginning of August, around the 10th of August, approximately, and it was proclaimed in Shitomir.
THE PRESIDENT:You may proceed, Mr. Hochwald. BY MR HOCHWALD:
QMay I assume then that the five executions were carried out, each involving about eighteen people, by your Einsatzkommando?
AYes, that is correct.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many executions ordered by Dr. Rasch were carried out in connection with this reprisal?
AThat I can not say Mr. Prosecutor, I can not remember, I don't know. I think I can remember that that there were reprisals - that the number was established by the Fuhrer, but I don't know this number.
QAll right, I would like to discuss with you the order which you received from Rasch in the beginning of August in Shitomir?
AYes.
QWho of the defendants were present at this meeting where Rasch announced this order?
AOf the defendants, nobody was present. It is possible that Herr Blobel was there, but I am not certain that he was present. It is certain that Herr Naumann was there, and Dr. Kroeger. There were a few other gentleman but I don't remember the names.
QNone of the people present, including Rasch, said a word that there was a Fuehrer Order in existence, which in essence had the same content within the order he gave you as handed down by Jekeln from Himmler?
ADuring this discussion in August, nothing was mentioned.
QNobody said such a thing?
AI know nothing about it.
QHerr Schulz, when you heard of this order, did you voice any opposition against this order of Rasch's?
AYes, I did. Not only I objected but also other people, other comrades who were present. They most decidedly complained about it.
QWhat exactly did you say?
AI can not remember the exact words. I do not remember them. Because I did not know that I would have to repeat them one day. It was within the framework of general discussion whether it would have been practicable under the conditions to complain, and to speak about it, I don't know. I am not able to decide about this, and I decided on that occasion to act, and, I merely asked questions whether the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin knew about these orders, and, whether the RSHA agreed to them. Whereupon, as I already said, in direct examination, Rasch answered that was absolutely certain, if the highest Police and SS Leader, the Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln decreed such an order, then that was valid for all.
QFor all. Not only for the Einsatzgruppe-C, is that right?
AI may ask you what you mean by "all"?
QYou said that it was so that this order came from Himmler?
AYes.
QDid you understand this order to be given only for EinsatzgruppeC?
ASo I assumed, because it had been given by the higher Police and SS Leader Jekeln. Jekeln was competent for the Einsatzgruppe-C.
QWhy did you expect that they should give an order for one Einsatzgruppe, which should not be valid for all of them, as the order for one Einsatzgruppe alone was issued by the group-commander, but not by the Gruppenfuehrer Himmler, who was in charge of all SS troops?
AThat may be so in spite of this. I heard that on the part of Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln, he was known to be a fanatic, that more was actually done, and more was actually decreed than perhaps was necessary and wanted, that I assumed at the time.
QDid you see something in writing from Rasch, as to this order?
ANo, I didn't, I didn't see anything in writing.
QThen you are of the opinion that Jekeln was ordering something which possibly would be more than was requested on which this order of Jekeln was based?
AI convinced myself of it insofar as I went to Berlin.
QSo then you were not clear of the fact when the order was given that it came really from Himmler?
AI could not imagine that of such importance, an important order.
QWho was the Army commander of the area where Einsatzgruppe-C then operated?
AThat was AOK-VI, that was General Fieldmarshall von Reichenau.
QWho was the superior of von Reichenau, I think you said Rundstedt?
AYes, it was Rundstedt, yes, that is right.
QWhat was your collaboration with the Army authorities?
AIt was completely and absolutely satisfactory in all its service, although in the short time of my stay in Russia I had no possibility, of course, and no opportunity to have a definite relation at all. I must inform you that during all these times, during the time I was in Russia, I was on the move all the time.
QYou contacted the office of General Reichenau directly, or did you have connections with the lower army unit - the lower level?
AI merely visited them, and further discussions between the various agencies between the I-C, mainly, was done through a liaison man who had been appointed by myself.
QSo you had a regular liaison officer at Reicheman's headquarters?
ANo, he was not in Reichenau's Headquarters. I han another liaison officer when I was in Berditschew with Army Group South and I dismissed the liaison officer for this task, because Army Group South was in Berditschew itself.
QWho was commander of this Army Group?
AThat was General Field Marshal von Rundstedt.
QYou told the Tribunal that you once or twice received requests from that part of the Army to execute people?
AYes, that is right.
QWith such a chain of command, how did such a request reach you?
AProbably through I.C.
QAnd One-C handed this request to your liaison officer?
ANo, he didn't.
QYou never got it?
AI never received a written order.
QWho got the order from One-C, the execution order, I mean?
AI do not know what order you are referring to?
QMy original question was whether it is true, that one, two or more times you received a request from the part of the Army to execute people, your answer was, yes. I then asked you how the chain of command was, how this order reached you, your answer was, it was over the One-C. My question now is, from the One-C whom did the order reach from the One-C?
AIt was like this. Shortly after my arrival in Berditschew I visited him, and on the occasion of this visit to the Army South, I was told that in the case of Berditschew the arrested people were in the Citadel in Beritschew who had been arrested as partisans bearing arms in the fight at Berditschew , and I was asked to settle matter there and then.
Q.Who asked you that?
A.I am not in a position now to tell you the name.
Q.It must not be a name;which office of the Army requested it from you?
A.I think it must be an officer who was collaborating with the One-C, that he was an officer of One-C itself ,b ecause apart from this one visit I never visited the Army group south again.
Q.Then if I understand you correctly, then you executed people only on the basis of telephone or teletype requests without knowing anything as to the circumstances?
A.No.
Q.Only for the simple reason that an officer in an Army office asked you to do that , is that correct?
A.No, that is absolutely a mistake. I also explained the matter in a very different way. They were made known to me on occasions of such discussions, and then I ordered the investigation of these things. As I said,yesterday, I passed this on to subCommander of my command, and this officer did not have the opportunity or chance to deal with it immediately, and so even I was reminded by Dr. Rasch, my chief, when, a few days later he inspected my command, and told me that complaints had been received, and that the executions of these partisans, who were arrested in were in the Citadel, had not been carried out and only then I gave sub-commander the order again , and I asked him to investigate the matter. This investigation took place at the Citadel.
Q.And the Teilkommando leader settled the question with Wehrmacht immediately then? No, I understand you differently, I understand that it was left to your discretion and to the alscretion of the subordinates of yours t as to whether these people should be executed, as you said, the last investigation was left to one of your sub-commanders, is that correct?
A.The investigation was carried out by the commander of a subdetachment, after conclusion of the investigation . In this case the Wehrmacht decided how it was to be handled after that. I, myself, did not give any such order.
Q.Is it not true that the sub-commander was responsible to you and not to the Army?
A.Yes, they were subordinate to me, but I was subordinate to the Army; the Army could give orders to me and to my detachments.
Q.I only wonder that the sub-commander who was responsible reported to the Army and not to you.
A.Certainly, he also reported to me, but the people arrested at Berditschew were under military arrest at the Citadel, and, consequently, the authorities who arrested them had to be informed.
Q.But you received the requests for executions and not your sub-commander, and you gave him the order to investigate the matter, so, it seems to me more natural that you would have been informed about the effect of this investigation, and you could make then your recommendation to the Army, is it not true?
A.I could have done so, yes, but in this case I passed it onto the sub-commander who was in charge of the investigation.
Q.All right. You testified in this connection about another execution which was carried out in Suichnik, is that right?
A.Yes.
Q.Who ordered this execution?
A.I already described this event. I believe that it is known, but 'll repeat it again. One day --
Q.May I interrupt you a moment; I only want to know who ordered this execution, then you can explain. Say, first, who ordered it?