ANo one became a member of the SD just on the basis of the emergency service, nor of the State Police or the SS. He joined as a civilian, and he was used in the agency as he was needed. If he was to be used in the war, he had to wear a uniform corresponding to his position, his rank and his salary. A cording to theses he then was assigned to the rank, and thus, he became a so-called "Uniform wearer," It might sound very strange but that is the way it was. These "Uniform wearers" were addressed by the SS rank but could not designate themselves as SS-members.
QFrom the personal file of Radetsky -- I would like to say that these are in Document Book III-O. Document NO-4771. Exhibit No. 139, which is on page 45 of the German text, the last document in this volume-- (hands document to the witness). Here it says in the text that SS-Sturmbannfuehrer (NDV) Haldemos von Radetsky is to be transferred." Please tell the Tribumal what this designation means?
AYou mean this desgination "NDV"?
QYes?
AThat is the abbreviation for those obligated to serve under war emergency.
QWhy is this designation added immediately after the "Sturmbannfuehrer"?
AThat had to be done in order to state immediately that this is not an active member of the SS. If he had been one obligated to serve under war emergency, and at the same time an active SS-Leader, then this designation would not have appeared.
QIf I understand you correctly, this designation "NDV" is to mean that Radetsky only got into the SS by way of this emergency service status?
AWell, that question is not correctly put. He did not get into the SS, but he merely wore a SS-uniform.
QIn this document there is a handwritten note "File, Sturmbannfuehrer is not needed." After you signed the document, orsince you signed the document, you can perhaps say what this note means?
AI assume that no file was necessary because he was not carried as a Sturmbannfuehrer, because he only held this rank as in this emergency service status.
QIn the text of this document it says that Radetsky was detailed by the commando. the SS, by the Reich fuehrer. Please tell the Tribunal what you have to say about this note?
ASofar as I can recall, Himmler had the intention of handling the matter of the Vlassow Army in his own staff, and for this purpose he was looking for a liaison officer who spoke Russian, that was Radetsky, but this assignment to that field did not come off, because Office VI took over the matters concerning the Vlassow Army. Thus, there Radetsky went directly to Office-VI.
Q DR. RATZ:Your Honr, I would like to state something in connection with this personal file. It is actually outside of the examination of this witness. Photostates of the documents have been made available, among them a photostatic copy of this document which we are just discussing. I have now found out that one page has been torn out of this collection, and therefore, I went to the document room and the document room explained that this missing page would not be handed over by order of the Prosecution. I, therefore, tried again to secure this missing page but this was refused once more. I believe it is not right to tear out one page from this document which belongs altogether, especially since the Prosecution in their letter 4 September 1947, told us expressly that the document room was to deliver to any defense counsel complete photostatic copies.
THE PRESIDENT:We don't argue the matter as to whether it was right-- We don't need to argue the matter as to whether it is right to tear out a page because it is obvious that a page should not be torn out.
Let us find out first whether a page was removed, and, if go, why, and then we will consider the situation.
MRHORLICK-HOCHWALD: If Your Honor please, I can possibly give the information in regard to this matter. In between the personal file of the defendant Radetsky there are different independent letters. One letter which had nothing to do with the file itself was removed from the file, and will be handed in by the Prosecution at another time. But I can now inform the Tribunal that this is a completely independent document; a letter which not a part of these forms which the Tribuual sees here.
THE PRESIDENT:Do you intend to submit it later into evidence?
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I doo Your Honor, at another time.
THE PRESIDENT:And do you intend to submit that letter in evidence?
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: We do, your Honor, but at another time.
THE PRESIDENT:Do you intend to submit it as rebuttal, or how do you intend to get it into evidence?
MR. HORLICK HOCHWADL:We want eventually to put it to the witness either in cross-examination or put it in as rebuttal.
THE PRESIDENT:You do not regard it as part of your case in chief?
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: No, sir; we did not. We put in this document entirely only to show that the Defendant Radetzky was a member of the SS and of the SD, of course. If Defendant Radetzky denies that, I do think this document is proof enough to show that be was a member of the SS and of the SD, so it is not a part of our case in chief.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Ratz, the Prosecution has the right to present its case as it sees fit, just as defense counsel have the same right. Now, you were assured that that document will be available at a later date, so therefore I don't think it is necessary to spend any more time on that document, especially in view of the fact that you are not now presenting the case of von Radetzky. You are merely cross-examining this witness. You have not yet reached your client's case. BY DR. RATZ:
QWitness, a few further questions. Later you were commander of the Security Police and SD in Salzburg. In this capacity did you meet Radetzky again?
AYes. Radetzky came to Salzburg. At the time it was in the last few weeks before the capitulation. He came there in his capacity as liaison officer of the Vlassow Army. At the time I spoke to him, and I told him that I considered the defense of Salzburg under the circumstances as very senseless, but there was still one more difficulty to be overcome. That was the development of a tremendous activity by Russian Generals who were active in volunteer armies. These Russian generals wanted to set up a new corps around Salzburg because they did not want to be used in the fight against their own countrymen.
They wanted to be used to fight the Western Powers. It was very difficult to regulate this matter since a liaison with the leading agencies in the north of the Reich was very difficult. This was difficult because the Gau-Leader of Linz was prepared to use this volunteer corps.
THE PRESIDENT:Now, Witness, you are going into a history of the Vlassow Army and the strategy of the letter days of the war. Now, Dr. Ratz merely asked you if you saw von Radetzky at Salzburg and what you talked about or what you had to do with that defendant, Now, let's get directly to that point, and you can give us the other background only in the event it becomes necessary in your discussion of whatever transpired between you and von Radetzky.
THE WITNESS:Yes. we have to thank Radetzky for preventing these plans from maturing. This army was not formed, and the Russian generals, if I remember correctly, were at the disposal of the American commander after the capitulation.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) At the end of the war was Radetzky still a uniform wearer or had his relationship to the RSHA changed?
AI can't tell you any more than the fact that he had come to the Security Police on an emergency status.
QOne final question, did Radetzky have the possibility to escape this emergency service or to evade the orders given him?
ANo man on emergency status had this possibility for as soon as he was in the Security Police on an emergency status he was also under the jurisdiction of the SS and Police and he would have had to account for it before a court martial.
DR. RATZ:I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, just for the clarity of the record, when you spoke of the Russian generals, you, of course, meant those Russian generals who were fighting on the same side as Germany?
THE WITNESS:Yes, those who were on the German side in the Vlassow Army and other volunteer corps.
If I remember correctly there was General Tokol and General von Manteuffel, and other names. I don't remember.
THE PRESIDENT:I thought it might be better to have that clarified on the record.
THE WITNESS:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. BY DR. HAEHN (For Defendant Ruehl):
QWitness, during the direct examination and today's cross-examination by Dr. Fritz, you have described a course for candidates of the executive service whose members were then detailed to the Einsatzgruppen as a group. You have also testified that you succeeded in getting the participants of this course, recalled, and that this course again continued in October 1941 in Berlin.
AThat is right.
QI ask you, was the Defendant Ruehl among the participants of this course?
AYes, the Defendant Ruehl did belong in this group.
QThen I then say that he was also affected by this recall and that since 1941, at the latest October, 1941, he was away from his unit, the detachment 10-B of Einsatzgruppe D, that he left it finally.
AYes, with the exception of one casualty all members of this course returned.
QBefore this you mentioned in the cross-examination of Dr. Fritz that the candidates for this executive service, after completion of the course, were used as their qualifications and their potentialities indicated. Were there any exceptions for reasons of emergency service?
AYes, of course there were such exceptions, for if a given number of persons has to be distributed, and too high a percentage expresses the same wish, not all these wishes could be satisfied.
QCan you remember that the Defendant Ruehl, after completion of the course, expressed the desire to be accepted in the Criminal Police?
AI can't say it with certainty, but I think it was the case for I listened to the wishes personally.
DR. HAEHN:I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Do any other defense counsel desire to crossexamine?
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Hochwald, due to the lateness of the hours, perhaps you would prefer to begin your cross-examination tomorrow morning.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWASD: Yes, your Honor, I only have two questions about the same document as was put to the witness by defense counsel for the Defendant Radetzky. Perhaps I should be permitted to ask this now.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, by all means.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD:
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I, your Honors, again refer to Document Book III-C and to Document No 4771, which is on Page 22 of the English, I shall quote from Page 26 of the English, 29 of the German.
QHerr Schulz, did I understand you correctly that you said that Radetzky was not a member of the SS?
AMr. Prosecutor, I gather this from the document which was submitted to me.
QAll right. Will you look now on Page 29 of the German, Page 26 of the English, and I would like to read to you. a letter to the Chief of the SS Personnel Main office, Berlin SW-11, Prinz Albrechtstrasse 9. This letter is dated 13 December 1939.
"I would ask so promote SS Untersturmfuehrer Waldemar von Radetzky, SS No. --" and so forth, "leader of the staff of SS Upper-Section Marthe, to the rank of SS Obersturmfuehrer, SS Untersturmfuehrer v.
Radetzky was personally accepted into the Schutzstaffel by the Reichfuehrer SS."
Do you still maintain that Radetzky was not a member of the SS?
AMr. Prosecutor, I don't know these incidents.
QI asked you whether Radetzky was a member of the SS or not, and I ask you now whether you still maintain that Radetzky was not a member of the SS. Please answer this question.
AI don't believe this is necessary. I don't know in what form he got into the SS.
QCan you explain to t he Tribunal whether it is possible that somebody who was accepted by Himmler himself into the SS could not be a member of this organization?
AIf he was personally accepted by Himmler?
QI will read that again.
THE PRESIDENT:It isn't necessary. It is very clear.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: That is all I have to ask on this document, your Honor. May I then start my cross-examination tomorrow?
THE PRESIDENT:Then, Witness, to that extent you modify your previous statement about von Radetzky? You would say then from this letter that he must have been a member of the SS?
THE WITNESS:I didn't read the letter yet, but if the things are as they were described, that he was accepted by the Reichsfuehrer, SS, I cannot deny it. I don't know anything but what was submitted to me, I first met Radetzky in 1939 when he was already Sturmbannfuehrer and already in an emergency status in the Security Police.
THE PRESIDENT:When you described the system of allowing certain individuals to wear uniforms, even though not members of the SS, you were describing a general situation?
THE WITNESS:Yes, that was a general situation. These men received a spedial identification card that was a temporary identification card. The men had the obligation that if they were returned from the occupied territory where they were uniform wearers they had to hand in their uniform again and could not consider themselves as SS members.
This was the third class of officers.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 October 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Otto Ohlendorf, et al.
, defendants sitting at Nurnberg Germany, on 21 October 1947, 0930, Justice Musmanno presiding.
THE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II-A.
Military Tribunal II-A is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT:Any other defense counsel to cross examine the witness Schulz? If not, Mr. Hochwald, you may continue with your crossexamination.
ERWIN SCHULZ - Continued CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HOCHWALD:May it please the Tribunal.
QHerr Schulz, you testified that you joined the Nazi Party in May 1933, is that correct?
AYes, that is right.
QBut you testified that you sympathized with the Party already earlier?
AYes, already in 1932.
QNot earlier that that?
AI can not be sure of the time.
QWhy did you join the Party before 1932?
ABecause it was not desirable to join the Party as a member of the State Police in Bremen.
QWas that the only reason?
AYes, I think so.
QWasn't it the reason that you being a member of the Political Police were able to render much more valuable service to the Party and to the SS if you were only a comouflaged member; I mean that you were not a member actually, but that your superiors didn't know that you were a member of the Party, and in this way was it not possible for you to help the Party much better in this position?
AIt would have been possible, but that was not the case.
QAll right, that was not the case. What was your rank in the service on 1 January 1933?
AOn 1 January 1933 I was 1st Lieutenant.
Q 1st Lieutenant?
AYes.
QAnd on 1 August 1939?
AOn 1st August 1939? Sofar as I remember I was Regierungsteat. (Governor Council)
QYes but what was your military rank? You were a Police Officer here your not?
AYes, here I must give a some what lengthy explanation. In 1923 I joined the Protectice Police, and until the end of the year of 1938 I was police offer all the time, and a member of the police, and, thus, I belonged to the Main Office of the Regular Police. As a result of the police reorganization in 1939 some kind of decision had to be made whether I was to remain as a member of the Main Office Regular Police, or whether I should go to the Security Police, thus, in the year of 1938 I was released from the Main Office Regular Police, and I was transferred from the Main Office Regular Police to the Main Office Security Police. The Main Office Security Police didn't dispose of their office positions, and, thus, as Police Captain, that was my rank at the time, I was transferred as a government counsellor.
QSo I take it from your answer that your last military rank in the orderly of police was the rank of Captain, is that correct, in 1938?
AYes, that is right.
QAnd you were not promoted in 1939?
AIn 1939, I can not say that by heart, but all my promotion dates are here in the document.
QWhen did you become a Standartenfuehrer?
AI became Standartenfuehrer when I was a commissar and inspector in Hamburg.
QThat called for the rank of a colonel, is that right?
AYes.
QThat was in 1940, was it not?
AYes, that is right.
QWhen were you promoted to Oberfuehrer?
AI believe I became Oberfuehrer in November 1941.
QWas it not immediately after your return from Russia that you were promoted Oberfuehrer?
ANo, not directly when I returned from Russia. For at the end of September I returned from Russia, and if I remember correctly that promotion to Oberfuehrer became effective on 9 November.
QOn 9 November you were promoted to Oberfuehrer?
AYes, I think so. But this is in my personal file which I gave the CIC and that must have all my information.
QOberfuehrer is a rank between a full colonel and a brigadiergeneral?
AYes, that is right. That is an intermediate promotion for officials, that is, because there is no such equivalent rank.
QWhen were you promoted to the rank of brigadier-general?
AMy promotion to a brigadier-general I think was from the original date as of October 1942, as I remember it.
QThat was the highest rank you achieved?
AYes.
QYou told the TRibunal that you were after the occupation of the so-called Sudeten country, in Aussign and in Reichenberg, is that correct?
AYes.
QWas that in 1938?
AOnce during the occupation of Sudetenland in the year of 1938, and later during the occupation of the Protectorate in the Spring of 1939
QWhere were you after the occupation of the Protectorate?
AAfter the occupation of the Protectorate I was given the leadership of the State Police in Reichenberg, and sofar as I remember that was effective 1 June 1939.
QHow long did you stay in Reichenberg?
AI stayed in Reichenberg as far as I remember -- there are the documents to show this, until I was transferred to Hamburg, and that I think was on 1 March 1940.
QWhat was your position there?
AWhere? In Reichenberg I was Head of the Police Agency, and I was Governor Councillor.
QYou were the highest ranking officer then in Reichenberg, were you not?
AYes, that is right.
QHow many people were arrested by the Gestapo in Reichenberg during the time that you were there in command?
AMr. Prosecutor, I can not tell you exactly.
QApproximately?
AI can only say that the number was not very high.
QWere there Jews in Reichenberg arrested at the time when you were there?
AI can not say that definitely, because I don't know it exactly. But any kind of a large scale arrest didn't take place during my time. On the contrary, I used an expert who was especially given the job to see that the Jewish property was confiscated in an orderly manner.
QDo I understand correctly that all Jewish property was confiscated then?
AWhen I came to Reichenberg extensive confiscation of Jewish property was already undertaken, and in this field I found a lot of disorder.
This disorder caused me to create order, and to use an expert on the job, who carefully confiscasted the Jewish property, and wherever any agencies had taken hold of some furniture, everything was carefully confiscated and was reported to the Chief Minister of Finance.
QWhat was the name of this expert?
AThat was the Police Inspector Spaet, if I remember correctly?
QWhat happened to the people who were arrested at that time? Were they sent to a concentration camp?
AThat depended on the decision of the Reich Security Main Office, for I did not have the power to make decisions in this matter.
QDid you report to the RSHA in order to make such a decision possible?
AIf such pre-requisites existed, I had to report to them, yes.
QYou were also in Olmuetz?
AYes.
QWhen was that?
AThat was from the occupation of Olmuetz in the Spring of 1939.
Q 15 March 1939, is that correct? In Olmuetz?
AI can not give you the exact date, but I say it was that date.
QYou were there for eight weeks, approximately?
AYes, I was there for about eight weeks.
QWhat was your position ther, Herr Schulz?
AI was Government Councillor, and Sturmbannfuehrer at the time.
QYou were commander of an Einsatzkommando, is that correct?
AYes, that is right, Mr. Prosecutor.
QWere you the highest Gestapo officer in charge in Olmuetz?
AFor the time of my assignment, yes, but there was also the Einsatzgruppen chief who had his headquarters in Prague.
QBut in the Olmuetz you were the highest, were you not?
AThat is right.
QYou further stated that the Einsatzkommando had lists of Security Police suspects of persons who were endangering the security of the occupying forces, mostly ethnic Germans who were immigrating from Germany, and also the pure Czechs, is that correct?
AYes.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many persons of these immigrating Germans and Czechs were arrested at that time in Olmuetz?
AI can not say definitely, but I can say with certainty that during the time of my stay only very few arrests were made. If it was the question of Czech Nationals, the measures were carried out by the Czech police.
QWho gave the Czech police the orders to carry out these measures?
AThis had to be given and I guess they came from me.
QYou can not say even approximately how many Czechs were arrested?
ANo, I can not tell you that, but I can say that certainly there were not many.
QYou further stated that there was no order to arrest the Jews is that right?
AI can not remember that there was a special order to arrest Jews. Whether some Jews were listed in the arrest lists given by the RSHA, I just don't remember at the moment.
QCan you state were there other Jews who were not implicated were arrested by other agencies then yourself?
AI didn't quite get the question, exactly.
QYou said by your order only Jews who were implicated in acts against the security of the German forces were arrested, did I understand you correctly?
AYes.
QNow I ask you, is it known to you that also other Jews were arrested?
ANo, at the moment I can not remember. Certainly not because they were Jews only.
QYou are sure of that?
AMr. Prosecutor, there are many years in between, and I don't know that exactly but it can not have been a decisive number. I ask you to consider that the Einsatzcommando was a preparatory agency which only created a prerequisite for localities for the agencies to be set up later.
QBut nevertheless, you were the highest Gestapo Officer at that time, were you not?
AYes.
QWhat happened to the people who were arrested, the Germans or Czechs, as you mentioned, and surely if they were Jews. Were they sent to concentration camps?
AI can not remember that during my time people were sent to concentration camps, from Olmuetz, I don't know that.
QNobody was sent to Buchenwald?
AI do not know that.
QWho was sent to Buchenwald without your order?
AI can not tell you this without knowing about the individual case.
QWas it possible that somebody was sent to Buchenwald, or to another concentration camp just without having the approval of the Gestapo?
AI hardly think so.
QIn May 1941, Herr Schulz, you received an assignment as commander of the Einsatzgruppe, is that correct?
AIn May -
QIn May 1941?
AOf an Einsatzkommando.
QYes, I am sorry.
AYes.
QWho communicated this order to you?
AThis order was given to me by Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach.
QWere you not in Pretsch during all the time with one exception?
AWith two exceptions, Mr. Prosecutor. Namely I was in Pretsch at the time of the inspection and the two days before we marched to Russia, after the war had been declared on them.
QI meant it that way, I didn't think you going. I meant the inspection only when Heydrich was there. Can you tell the Tribunal where these three places are located?
APretsch on the Elbe River near Wittenberg, and Dubew at Schnieberg, some kilometers away from Pretsch.
QWhat province of Germany is that?
AI think the Province of Saxony.
QIs that in Eastern Germany, is it not?
AWell, that depends what borders you are considering. This is on the road to Leipsig.
QYou were present in Pretsch when Heydrich inspected the Einsatzgruppen?
AYes.
QWho was present at this inspection?
AThat Mr. Prosecutor, I can not tell you definitely. All the Einsatzgruppen kommandos were distributed among the various localities and on that day of the inspection they were gatherd together on the marching field near Schniedeberg. A very few hours before the inspection all the commandos gathered together, and lined up in the open square, and then the inspection took place by Heydrich, and after the inspection they marched out of this place down the road.
QYou don't remember of one of the defendants being present at this inspection?
AI can really not tell you with any certainty, but I think that Einsatzgruppen -- Einsatzkommando leader of Einsatzgruppe V were present.
Please keep in mind that at that time - I did not know about the distribution of the various offices among the various commandos. I know that in Schniedeberg in a bar where part of the Einsatzkommando was quartered, Dr. Rasch was there, so far as I remember, and, I also believe to have seen Sturmbannfuehrer Hennecke and I also think that I saw Herr Blobel, and I think Herr Hermann was there, too, but I can not tell you that definitely, whether this was on the day of the inspection or whether this was in the last days before we started to march out.
QSo the only two defendants you remember are Rasch and Blobel, is that correct?
AMr. Prosecutor, if I did mention any other name it would be an assumption so I can not tell you definitely.
QWas Streckenbach present?
AStreckenbach had come together with Heydrich, and Streckenbach and Heydrich undertook the inspection.
QDid you speak to Streckenbach on that occasion?
AYes, I think I did greet him.
QNothing else, no conversation?
AYes, that is quite possible.
QYou have further stated in your direct examination that shortly before the inspection you were called to a meeting in the Prince Albert Palais in Berlin to Heydrich, and Heydrich informed the people present about the task of the Einsatzgruppen, and especially about the war against Russia, is that correct?
AYes.
QWho of the defendants in the dock was present at that meeting?
AI think I can say definitely that Herr Ohlendorf was there. As for the others, I don't know.
QThe only defendant present you remember was the defendant Ohlendorf?
AThere were several, Mr. Prosecutor, but I can't tell you that definitely who was there. I know, for instance, that Gruppenfuehrer Nebe was there.
I also know that Dr. Stahliger was there. I think if you were to mention any names to me I think I can remember that I saw them, but otherwise I really cannot say with certainty which of the defendants were there.
QNeither Naumann nor Rasch?
ADr. Rasch, I think, was there, yes.
QWas the defendant Naumann there?
ANaumann I cannot recall. I cannot tell you that definitely.
QWas Streckenbach present at that meeting?
AYes, Streckenbach was there.
QDid you speak to him?
AI did not talk to him personally. As I remember this incident we were together in this hall, and we had to wait for sometime until Heydrich arrived. During the time Streckenbach was present and there was a general conversation, but a special personal conversation between myself and Streckenbach did not take place.
QYou have said in direct examination that in 1933 you experienced some excesses on the part of the Nazi regime when Hitler came to power, is that correct?
AYes, that was the case.
QYou have further stated that you considered these excesses to be the effect or a transit period which would soon disappear.
AYes.
QDid you learn more about such excess in the time between 1933 and 1941, especially of excess against Jews, Socialists, Communists, and other enemies of the Nazi regime?
ACases came to my knowledge, but not within my official duties.
QMany of such cases?
ANo.
QYou were all the time an officer of the Gestapo. You can hardly have been ignorant of the fact that great numbers of Jews, Communists, and other enemies of National Socialism were sent to concentration camps for an unlimited period of time without having been afforded trial, is that correct?