Fuehrer Order should not be enforced?
A No. The members of my commando were, since the beginning of the Russian campaign, that is since June 1941, acted according to the fuehrer order, as it had been made known to them in Pretzsch or Dueben. Even the subcommandos worked in accordance with this order and quite independently at that.
Q Did you ever do anything to oppose the order?
A Yes, and I said in my interrogation to Mr. Wartenberg in February on one occasion, it was I think in June, I gave the orders to my three subcommando leaders in writing that they, on their own responsibility and independence must no longer work as they had worked up to then, I made it the duty of the subcommando leaders to submit all the documents pertaining to investigations, my commando in Orol for review. or to hinder the carrying out of the fuehrerorder? because when in 1942 I arrived in Russia, the fuehrerorder had already been carried out for five months in my territory, and it was, therefore, no longer topical. unable to, and did not do anything to oppose the fuehrerorder, is that correct?
A I cannot deduce that. Not having had a possibility, I had other tasks to deal with. because of the circumstances, do anything to oppose the fuehrerorder? upon my arrival did not necessitate the execution of the fuehrerorder any longer.
PRESIDENT; I think, Mr. Ferencz, he answered the question right at the very beginning. Now, if he wants to amplify on that or if you want some further specification, that is another matter, but that question, it seems to me, was spoken in this language, "Did you ever oppose the fuehrerorder by word or deed." It seems to me that is the way you put the question, and I heard the defendant reply in the German "Nein", then translated, "NO".
MR. FERENCZ: Is that correct, Witness?
THE WITNESS: I said that I saw no point any longer in doing anything because the fuehrerorder was no longer topical in my territory. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q Then you answered that question with "No", is that correct? thereupon I said that I gave my subcommandos the order that they could not independently carry out executions any longer but the document pertaining to these masters should be sent to the commando for investigation. That is what I said. question the Tribunal just put. I asked you -- the first question was "Did you ever oppose the fuehrerorder by word or deed", did you answer "Nein", Yes or No?
A Thank you. To the best of my knowledge, as a commando leader, you would say, wouldn't you, that all the commandos regularly carried out the executions?
DR. KOESSL: I object to this question, Your Honor, because the defendant cannot possibly state what other commandos did.
This is different in time and locality. This is a question which cannot be answered for one particular period, and certainly not for all the commandos.
PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Koessl, in the first place, this defendant was the company commander, he was the leader of the commando and, therefore, chargeable with all activities of the commando. In the second place, Mr. Ferencz included in his question, "to the best of my knowledge and belief", did his subcommandos conduct executions. There can certainly be no objection to a question put in that form. It seems entirely fair and reasonable. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q Would you answer the question, please?
A I think we do not meet on this point. The prosecutor did not ask me concerning subcommandos, but he asked me about the activity of the commandos, that is how it was, wasn't it?
PRESIDENT: Well, then answer it with regard to the commandos.
THE WITNESS: This question I am unable to answer clearly and explicitly. From March '42 until January 1943, I saw the leaders of other commandos only twice during official discussions in Smolensk and as a result of those meetings I have no clear impressions about the activities of the other commandos. After all, one must consider especially concerning the bad conditions of roads and transport in Russia, that my neighboring commando, 7A, was for instance about 500 kilometers distant.
PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, apparently I made a mistake. Did you ask whether he know that other commandos had carried out the executions?
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, my question was, "To the best of your knowledge as a commando leader, you would say, wouldn't you, that all the commandos regularly carried out such executions ?"
PRESIDENT: Well, I misunderstood that. I thought you were asking him to express whether his commando carried out the executions; but I see now what it is, and you may proceed along that line, and I can understand more thoroughly now, Dr. Koessl's objection that certainly he wouldn't be charged with knowledge as to what other commando leaders did; however, if he does know, then certainly he can answer it, if he doesn't know, then he doesn't know, then that answers that.
THE WITNESS: I believe, Your Honor, I have answered this question by saying that I only saw the other commando leaders on two occasions and that did not give me a clear picture of the situation. BY MR. FERENCZ: for the executions carried out by Sonderkommando 7B while under you commando? and coldly but one sat down for hours for the examination of the interrogation records. One thought it over and one asked the criminal commissars and the departmental chiefs, experts for explanation and for details. If the cases were particularly serious, one interviewed personally with one's interpreter, sometimes one even attended those interrogations and I can assure you honestly, Mr. Prosecutor, that often I sat in my office for whole nights with my staff examining the documents.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
carefully. My question is, however, that now as you look back upon what occurred in Sonderkommando 7-B under your command, do you have any feeling of regret or remorse? Do you feel that something wrong was done? wrong happened. I have pity for those people who during the course of the war have lost their lives, somewhere and I was convinced that our opponents in Russia had also their own ideology as well as I had my own ideology, and if in accordance with the Fuehrer Order and in accordance with the necessity for the security of the troops we had to shoot people here and there, than it was certainly not an easy task for us. These executions were not only very serious for those people concerned, but without the slightest doubt also for those who had to carry them out.
MR. FERENCZ: We have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any redirect examination, Dr. Koessl?
DR. GAWLIK: Gawlick for the defendant Naumann. the cross examination, concerning the relationship with the defendant Naumann.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. GAWLICK: yesterday whether the defendant Naumann confirmed the Fuehrer Order. In accordance with this I have the following question: Can you make statements as to whether the defendant Naumann attached particular attention to the Kommandos under his leadership developing a special activity in the carrying out of the Fuehrer Order? following: I do remember that Herr Naumann told me on 15 or 16 March Court No. II, Case No. IX.
when I asked him to confirm to me the accuracy of the Fuehrer Order as it was handed to me by Rausch, "I am not a hunter for high figures." That is what he said, and that is what I remember, and Herr Naumann knew then very well that in the area of the Second Panzer Army, which was also my field of activity, there were a number of sectors which we had not dealt with because they were practically impossible to deal with.
Q That is sufficient, witness. Is it correct that the reproach was made by the superior of the defendant Naumann that in the carrying out of the Fuehrer Order he showed too little activity and that he mainly tried to develop activities concerning another field, which has nothing to do with this. Do you remember that? in your absence, Dr. Gawlick, my defense counsel, Dr. Koessl, asked me concerning these particular points.
Q Perhaps you can answer the question "yes" or "no". Is it correct that the superiors of the defendant Naumann reproached him that in the carrying out of the Fuehrer Order he did not develop enough activity?
A I can neither answer the question "yes" or "no". This reproach was not raised by Kaltenbrunner, who was his superior, but Naumann's successor, Boehme, and that is what I said yesterday, I think. fendant Naumann was active in another field. It wasn't quite clearly expressed, witness, yesterday. Please, therefore, repeat it, will you? personal file -
Q What was it that became evident from this file, witness?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A Well, please let me tell you the story. There were two copies of letters from Naumann's successor filed and in this the reproach was made that Naumann had not sufficient power of command over his Einsatzgruppe and his officers, He was not strict enough with his officers, and, therefore, he should contact the officers of the Rear Army Territory concerning partisan activity and partisan combat.
DR. GAWLICK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. KOESSL: Yesterday, Your Honor, the witness wanted to make a statement concerning an alleged mistake in a document. I now have obtained the document from the office of Mr. Niebergall, and perhaps it would be the best thing if the witness would point out the place that he wanted to object to.
THE PRESIDENT: Let him have the document.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, before the witness points out any objection to the document, I would like to ask whether the document has been offered in evidence here either by the Prosecution or the Defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Koessl, is the document in evidence?
DR. KOESSL: It has not been submitted yet, Your Honor, In my Document Book 2 there are excerpts from it, but I am not quite certain whether the defendant wanted to refer to one of these excerpts. I had no occasion to speak to him last night because he was being cross examined. I, therefore, would like to show him the document, and it will immediately become evident.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, if the document has not been offered in evidence and the defendant does not propose to offer it at this time,I object to any comment being made on the document and ask that the correction be made at the time it is offered.
THE PRESIDENT: We can't very well, Dr. Koessl, go into a discussion of a document which is not before the Tribunal. It would only be in the nature of a private conversation.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
DR. KOESSL: I don't deem it necessary for this document to be discussed. What seemed necessary to me I shall submit, and I only wanted to comply with the order of the President in ascertaining the document concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: If you desire, we will gladly give you whatever time you desire, right now. It is only a question of,two or three minutes, five minutes, to take that to the witness and, off the record, discuss the matter with him, and then if because of what you learned from him you wish to introduce a document, then you may introduce it and then he can make whatever statement he desires about that document, but your discussion with him cannot be a part of the record because there is no document before us for discussion.
DR. KOESSL: I thank you very much for your kindness, Your Honor. I think I can do this in two minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Please do not talk into the micro
DR. KOESSL: Yes.
THE WITNESS: May I say something else, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, after you have conferred with your counsel, you may.
DR. KOESSL: Your Honor, what the witness wanted to say appears in my Document Book 4 Ott, and will be submitted later. His statements deal very briefly only with one particular point in connection with the probative value of the documents themselves, and therefore I would like him to make a brief statement.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, the probative value of any document is a matter for the Tribunal, and I repeat my objection to any discussion of a document which has not been offered in evidence.
DR. KOESSL: Your Honor, in that case I shall not hear the witness make this statement, but I can assure the Prosecution that it would have been to their advantage if the witness had made the statement.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
BY DR. KCESSL: voluntary?
( Did you have a special war assignment during the war?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
the SD. have left the SD if you had wanted to? his unit. ritory which you also reported about?
A You mean in Russia?
A Yes. Repeatedly the executions carried out by other units were also reported about, but certainly with a remark saying that these were other units or other detachments which had carried than out. I dealt briefly yesterday with the existence of the self-administrative detachment Lokot. That was an administrative district which was under a Russian leader and which also upheld quite an extensive militia. This particular militia unit carried out operations independently and also executions,
DR. KOESSL: Thank you, Your Honor. I have no further questions. BY THE PRESIDENT: on page 58. Yesterday you stated that under your orders and instructions your Kommando executed twenty Jews because they were Jews. In the report which appears on pages 57 and 58 you will find on page 58 the phrase, "specially treated by Sonderkommando 7-B", and then the enumeration of the people who were killed. The last item is "twentyseven Jews", Now you said yesterday that you only killed twenty because they were Jews. This report indicates that there were twentyseven Jews killed because they were Jews. How do you account for the difference in numbers?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
did yesterday during my direct examination. In the preceding months and that is during a period of three months no reports were supplied concerning executions and other police activities of the Einsatzgruppe B. This report deals with a period from 6 to 30 March. That covers a period of reporting which did not exist for us at the time, because according to orders our reports were made at the deadline of the. 1st and 15th of each month. The compiling of reports from the 6th to the 30th is something so unusual that doubtlessly one of the superior agencies either the Einsatzgruppe or RSHA, to whom these reports after all went, an arbitrary compiling had been made. This I presume even more so since in this document all Kommandos of the Einsatzgruppe B are combined in this period from the 6th to the 30th. My neighboring Kommando, if this report would be assumed correct, would have executed two weeks after the happenings described therein occurred, This report is dated 21 April. Therefore, the executions would have occurred still in April, in the first week of April, when you were actually in the field with the Kommando. So, therefore, why wouldn't this enumeration be correct? necessarily as a basis. I remind you of the document containing the report about the operation "Eisbaer" which only appeared seven weeks after the actual operation. Therefore, one cannot always say it is two weeks. I can remember that on occasions four or five weeks passed and then a report was made. Now are we to understand that the report was delayed in each instance just long enough to get beyond the time that you were involved? apparently made after a few weeks, apparently two weeks, but another report was made after seven weeks, I do not want to say that it was Court No. II, Case No. IX.
always made after two weeks.
Q Well, tell us about this episode. Do you know anything about it; when your Kommando killed eighty-two persons, nineteen of whom had collaborated with partisans, twenty-two had spread Communist propaganda, fourteen had made inflammatory statements, and twentyseven were simply Jews? Do you know of this episode? out during the first time of my activity of my Kommando, and if that had actually happened, I would remember the cases individually even today; but I can assure you that neither during March nor during April executions of eighty-two people were carried out. just about come within that period; you took over the Kommando in the early part of March, This is dated April 21st so that even allowing for the maximum delay, this happening would still have occurred within the period of your incumbency, would it net? number of eighty-two, if it is correct, would, have been at the beginning of March or at the end of March, or at the beginning of April or at the end of April, but I can assure you that neither in March nor in April executions of this high number have been carried out, The first impressions which I would have gained during my first period of command would doubtlessly recall such happenings. mentioned yesterday? of six months, there were a number of miner cases and several operations, during which these twenty Jaws mentioned were apprehended, I said already yesterday that when operations were carried out against saboteurs and partisans, these Jews were seized too and they had to be shot. No matter whether or not they were partisans, whether or not they confessed because the Fuehrer Order automatically came into Court No. II,Case No. IX.
effect. about this Fuehrer Order when you first heard it, and then you said this morning to Mr. Ferencz's questioning that you never in any way opposed the order. If you were so shocked by it, why didn't you release some of these Jews? You had the opportunity, You were in command. Why didn't you release some of them? thing, namely consistency. Either I must shoot them all whom I capture or I have to release them all. To shoot some and let others escape would have been impossible for me. anybody, why couldn't you after having investigated the case of a Jew or several Jews have released them on the ground that they were innocent? and because I did not feel myself authorized and in the position to evade this order which had been given to me as a soldier. which you operated?
Q Did the Jews also speak Russian?
Q Yes. What designating characteristic proved that a Jew was a Jew? a Jew were not very difficult to establish, whether they be White Ruthenians or Great Russians or whatever they were, The Eastern Jew especially in Russia in his appearance is so characteristic that you cannot mix them up for anybody else. Furthermore, the people concerned when asked did always volunteer to give us their race or nationality. They never denied that.
as contrary to humanity, could you not have "salved " your conscience and your sensibilities by having released one helpless, piteous, defenseless Jew?
A Your Honor, first of all I didn't see a defenseless Jew, because wherever we captured Jews it was in the territories of the Partisan groups, they were rather militarilly fit , but even if a defenseless Jew had been sent to me and I would have to reach a decision and I could not have made an exception. and because of the Fuehrer Order which you felt compelled to follow? shot them down? defenseless. That is correct, isn't it?
Q Yes. How, witness, you spoke yesterday of executing a Jewess. On page 45 of your Document Book a reference is made to Jewesses. Did you kill more than one woman Jew?
A Your Honor, this is a report of 23 March 1942. This matter is unknown to me.
Q Very well, we won't waste any time on it then. How many executions did you witness, Ott?
Q How many people were involved in those executions? rogation was discussed. This was in Bryansk during my training period -
Q I just want to know, how many?
Q Six. The second execution how many were killed? near or at least in the vicinity of Orel -
Q How many were killed?
Q The third execution, how many were killed? to my recollection there were eleven people involved. I remember the incident why they were executed.
Q Yes. You indicated that when you went into Russia, that you didn't know the object of your mission. As we recall your testimony, you went to the RSHA in Berlin, and asked for on assignment; you indicated you wanted to go to the front; at any rate, later on you were called and you were given this assignment in Russia. In view of the fact that you had particularly asked for an assignment, why is it that you did not learn what the assignment was to be? I received by writing, and in this decree it merely said, "You are detailed to Einsatzgruppe D, and you will be in charge of the Special commando VII-B", and it said a little more there, "You will have to report to the chief of Einsatzgruppe" in Smolensk or something to that effect. would be?
Q And you didn't inquire? and Bohemia.
Q You joined the Nazi Party in 1922?
Q You were out of it how long, about a year?
Q Yes. You were out then about three years because of this difficulty you had had with the leader?
Q You, at no time, denounced the ideology of the Nazi Party? National Socialist at heart.
Q Yes, You took the oath to Hitler?
Q You took it voluntarily? oath to Hitler? to me that Adolf Hitler said, in 1933, in the Braune Haus in Munich, during a training course, for the SA: "No SA man and no Party member need ever have any pangs of conscience - if he gives his oath of allegiance to me".
Q And you accepted that?
Q And acted according to it during all the time of your service?
Q Do you regret ever having taken that oath to Hitler? with just one word. I was a National Socialist, and until the very last days of this war I was convinced of this idea, and I was of the conviction that Hitler had wanted to do his best for his Fatherland, and, I believe if the and of this war had been different, than we had expected during good times, then those were not the ideas which were at fault but the bearers of the idea who were at fault.
aims? conquered by Hitler?
A We, at the time, didn't think of it in that way as a conqueror of Europe, but as a protection to Europe.
Q Yes. You would have been satisfied to have see, all of Europe protected by Hitler?
Q Just as Czechoslovakia was protected; just as Holland was protected; just as Belgium was protected; just as France was protected; just as Norway was protected, and all those countries were protected, that is the way you would like to have seen it? completely different possibilities and conditions would have been obtained and that a satisfied and happy collaboration of all European countries could have been brought about. I was convinced of that.
Q Did you ever hear any of Himmler's speeches?
Q Did you also believe in Himmler?
A Your Honor, just I answer this question?
THE PRESIDENT: You do not. The witness will be returned to the defendants, dock and the defendant Klingelhoefer will be taken to the witness stand.
(witness excused)
JUDGE DIXON: Witness, hold up your right hand and repeat after me:
"I swear by God -- "
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, please. Can you hear it now. Do you hear that?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
JUDGE DIXON: "I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth, end will withhold and add nothing." You may be seated.
(Whereupon the witness repeated the oath)
DR. MAYER: Dr. Erich Karl Meyer for the defendant Klingelhoefer. Your Honor, before I begin with the direct examination of the defendant, I would like something to be corrected in the records. In the German record of 16 October 1947, in the afternoon session, approximately 1330 to 1630 hours, during my examination of the defendant Naumann in the witness stand, it was established that the witness Naumann helped, recommended the defendant Klingelhoefer to receive a decoration of war merit cross,1st class; it is on page 855 and page 856 of the German record, and the English record concerning the same examination, on page 846, talks about the defendant Klingelhoefer having received the Iron Cross of first class "Iron-Cross (Eiserne kreuz)". I want to correct the records and show now that the English record shows a mistake in translation, and that the defendant Klingelhoefer only got a minor decoration, the War Merit Cross, first class.
THE COURT: Mr. Ferencz, do you see any reasons why that correction should not be made?
MR. FERENCZ: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Dr. Mayer's statement will be made a part of the record, and of itself will work the correction of the transcript.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q. Witness, before I put my first question to you, I shall remind you to speak slowly and take great care that the question is translated before you start answering it. The direct examination, your Honor, will be in three parts, the political activity, including the Russian assignment; part two I shall deal with discussion of documents, and in part three: The activity of his in Office VI of the Reich Security Main Office.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY MR. MAYER:
Q. Witness, please give us your full name.
A. My name is Waldemar Klingelhoefer.
Q. Please give us the date of your birth, your birthplace, and tell about your family.
A. I was born on 4 April 1900 in Moscow. Son of a Cemetery Director, Hans Klingelhoefer. I have been married since 1932, and I have bee married since 1932, and I have four children.
Q. What training did you receive before you joined the SS and the SD?
A. I attended school first of all in Moscow and then in Kassel the High School with a scholastic education, and in 1919 I passed my matriculation. After that I studied music. Then I became a concert singer, and a singing tutor. From 1933 until 1934 I was employed as en opera singer at the State Theatre of Kassel.
Q. Why and when did you join the NSDAP?
A. Through my relationship and connection in Russian circles in Germany, and my interest in my native country of Russia, I recognized the grave danger which Germany, and moreover Europe was threatened with by Bolshevism and its world revolutionary ideas; the development of conditions in Germany made me accept the conviction that the political opinions as held by the NSDAP were the only possible solution in order to fight the Bolshevist attacks on Europe which could be expected, and which was able to resist this attack.
This conviction made me decide to join the NSDAP as a member. On 1 June 1930 I became a member of the Party.
Q. When and for what reasons did you join the General-SS?
A. When in the Summer of 1932 I reckoned with a lengthy stay in Kassel, I applied for membership in the SS, the reason for the enlistment in the SS was due to the fact that immediately afterwards I was engaged in a concert tour, this enlistment didn't come into effect; but after I returned from this concert tour on 1 February 1933, I finally joined the General-SS.
Q. How and when did you go to the SD?
A. Through my membership in the General-SS, 1, as a native German, living abroad due to my linguistic capability was acquainted with the information service of the SD; when for reasons of health I had been forced to relinguish my profession as a singer, the suggestion was made to me to join the SD, which for reasons of my special knowledge was of great interest for the SD. As I had had no other training, and as I had to support my family, I accepted this proposal, and, on 1 December 1934 I joined the SD full time in the Kassel sector.
Q. What activity did you indulge up to the beginning of the war?
A. First, I became just an office worker without any special duties, as the SD sector in Kassel was only just being built up. From the Fall of 1936, I took in charge of the cultural department, and in 1937 I was confirmed a departmental expert for the department of culture in the SD sector of Kassel.