gation was made because there wasnot time for investigation anymore.
MR. WALTON: At this time, Your Honor, I am just about to go into the documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Witness, I would just like to ask one question on a statement you made by way of comparison between those that you were compelled to kill and German women and children who met their death as a result of bombing. Do you know of any case where an order was issued by Allied authorities specifically that certain German women and children should be killed?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I do not know that kind of an order, but I can only assume that the bombs were thrown without an order and I cannot assume that somebody would have hadthe hope, the deceptive hope, that when thousands of planes bombed a certain area systematically that no women and children should be killed on that occasion and what I witnessed in Germany, your Honor, was so extensive that the consideration one could have hoped not to hit women and children is completely excluded in my mind.
THE PRESIDENT: But you do not know of any order which called upon any designated unit of the Allied Armed Forces to go into any German area and to kill women and children by shooting?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I did not get to know any such order, but I must assume that in Dresden, for example, where the city was bombed with heavy bombs, shortly afterwards, according to what I heard, those places where the survivors had escaped to were bombed, and during the next days as I heard, people were attacked by dive bombers when they were in the street. I cannot assume that this was done without orders.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it wasall the result of bombing?
THE WITNESS: Of course, your Honor, although during the different bombing in centuries one cannot call this bombing.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it falls into the same category as the bombing of cities by German forces, for instance, the bombing of London, the bombing of Rotterdam, the bombing of Coventry. We all understand that. There was bombing on both sides.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I cannot make any great difference there. We were told at the time that they were taking military posts but I am convinced that those who gave orders to attack the city of London also had to expect this, that innocent defenseless people were killed.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Doctor, let us pass to some of your specific activities. In your statement, which is in Document Book III-D on page 54 of the English, page 94 of the German. It is Document NO-4234, Prosecution Exhibit 163. In paragraph 3 thereof, you relate one instance of the execution of a number of Jews. Who rounded up these Jews?
A. Under direct examination I said that prior to my term of office, identification and registration was carried out, that is to say, before I assumed office, and it was the commander of 10-A that dealt with it; when orders had been received from the Army for the Commander to concentrate the Jews, they were rounded up.
Q. Did I understand you to say that the commnader of 10-A -- What is this designation? Will you go a little further into details?
A. Under direct examination I said that at Simferopol a subkommando, which was part of Kommando 10-A, a few days after arrival was subordinated to me. The way I remember it is that originally it was Kommando 10-A.
Q. Thank you. The translation came aver in better shape that time. Well, approximately how many Jews were there in this number which were executed?
A. I have already said here that I cannot give you a definite figure. As far as I remember, I gave you the exact number of Jews present in peacetime in Simferopol. I also told you that at least half of them had escaped, but I cannot give you the exact figure.
Q. Can you give me an approximate figure?
A. No, I cannot do that either, unless I can just work it out this way: There were approximately 10,000 before, COURT II CASE IX half of whom had escaped and from that I can deduce that in all circumstances there must have been fewer than 4,000 to 5,000, but I cannot give you an exact figure.
Q. Then there were more than 1,000 executed during this one instance, is that what I am to gather?
A. I think I am certain that there were more than 1,000.
Q. Were women and children included in this number in this incident?
A. Yes, but I have to add that on account of the rumors and on account of people escaping I think there were only a very few children. Any way I myself never saw children being shot, but there were women among them for certain.
Q. Do you remember approximately how large the execution squad was that performed this execution?
A. They were detachments, I believe, of ten men. In each case there was a military commander. The exact number of these squads I cannot give you.
Q. Were they composed of Ordnungs Police or State Police and Wehrmacht and Gestapo?
A. I have already told you that the majority of them were companies from the regular police, Ordnungs Polizei, but I cannot give you any details as to their composition, all the more so because I believe that I remember that they were being relieved at the time.
Q. Am I to assume that these executions were ordered by the Army?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, it happened the way I described it to you. The Liaison Leader came and told Herr Ohlendorf the the Army demanded the execution to be carried out before Christmas. Naturally, above all, there was the COURT II CASE IX Fuehrer Order, unchanged and valid as before.
Q. Well, why didn't you include this fact, since it was so important, in your affidavit, or, I am sorry, in your statement?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I believe I can remember perfectly well that I told Herr Wartenberg at the time that the things which he had put into the affidavit only constituted a small fraction, but I believe, I am certain I told him that it was the Army which gave that order. In fact, I believe that I can remember just new that that is contained in my statement. Perhaps I can just have alook. Yes, I have found it. May I quote:
"The 11th Army had ordered that the execution at Simferopol was to be finished before Christmas." time. It is on page 2, Mr. Prosecutor, and it is the last paragraph.
Q. By that you meant that the Army ordered all executions of Jews in Simforopol to be finished by Christmas, is that correct? Was it this one that you specifically state, or all others?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the Fuehrer Order was there and now the Army said "We want it finished before Christmas." I wasn't able at the time to find out all the reasons. Maybe the reasons were strategic reasons, military reasons, which caused the Army to issue that order. Maybe they were territorial questions. Maybe they were questions of food. The Army at that time was afraid that hundreds of thousands of people might have to starve to death during that winter, because of the food situation, but all these are suppositions on my part and I cannot tell you what was the ultimate reason for that order given by the Army.
Q. Are you trying to tell us now that the execution of all undesirables was ordered because there might not be enough food for them?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, all I wanted to say was that might have been the reason for the Army to issue that order at that particular time. The over-all principles of the matter were not affected by that.
Q. Were there any executions carried out in Simferopol after Christmas, 1941?
A. Certainly, executions were carried out after Christmas, 1941, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Isn't it a fact that the morale factor of the German soldier was of concern to the Army and it felt that it had to restrain the zeal of the Security Police for executions during the Christmas season?
A. I am sorry, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't quite get the meaning of your question.
Q. You have testified, and others have testified, that the killing of Jews and Gypsies, and other undesirables affected the morale of the men. Isn't it true that as a morale factor for the German soldiers the Army felt that it had to restrain the executions during the Christmas season and therefore it hastened the execution of those people who were selected for execution prior to Christmas so that there would be no executions during the Christmas season?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, before that question is answered, do I understand you heard the witness say that executions affected the morale of his men? I don't recall that statement.
MR. WALTON: More specifically, Sir, he testified that Obersturmbann-fuehrer Schulz came to him on his return from his anti partisan activities and told him of the execution COURT II CASE IX by the use of the gas van and that he didn't like to use it any more because there was a great effect on the morale of his men.
THE PRESIDENT: That is true with regard to gas vans. That is an established fact. We have heard that from the witness stand, even from Ohlendorf, but generally I don't recall that the witness stated that executions in themselves affected the morale of his men, and, if he did not make that statement, then your question is founded upon something which is not in the evidence and that will make it all the more difficult to give you a precise answer.
MR. WALTON: And it is also not a question for crossexamination, if he did not mention it. I am sorry.
THE WITNESS: May I add something, Your Honor? May I correct one point? Mr. Prosecutor, as far as I recall, I did not mention morale in connection with the gas vans. I never mentioned the word, "morale." I believe I told you that Schulz had said to me that there was a heavier strain on the men than in shooting. The word, "morale", I did not mention.
MR. WALTON: I will withdraw the previous question.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Did your kommando perform any executions during the Christmas season of 1941?
A. As far as I remember, after the shootings which have already been mentioned, up to Christmas no further shootings were carried out. They were carried out approximately between the 10th and 15th. That is why I am surprised at the figures which are contained in further reports, because that was when the landings happened in Feodesia, Eupatonia etc.
Q. Was this execution carried out in a military and humane manner in accordance with General Ohlendorf's directives?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever discuss the methods or any facts concerning this execution with your superior, General Ohlendorf?
A. I believe, I did discuss it with Aim and that once we had been placed before such a difficult task, I essentially agreed with his directives.
Q. Did he have any criticism to make of the manner in which these executions were performed, to you?
A. Concerning the executions at Simferopol? No, because these executions were carried out in accordance with those directives.
Q. Doctor, the weather in Simferopol during December is quite cold, is it not?
A. In December, no, Mr. Prosecutor, As far as I remember it isn't very cold, only a heavy frost. In the Grimea, the southern part of which is almost sub-tropical, where one can go for walks under palms the severe winter of 1941-42 set in only in January I believe, and we had it between Christmas and New Year, because I can remember very well New Year's Eve, when we had to expect enemy parachutists and when the landing at Feodosia had taken place, I can remember that it was a white night.
Q. Well, prior t the actual shootings, these victims had to remove their outer clothing, didn't they?
A. I believe I told Herr Wartenberg something on that point and I said to him that they had to take off their heavy overcoats, but all their other clothes were left to them.
Q. Let me call your attention to paragraph 3 again, which is on page 55 of the English and on page 96 of the German and I quote, "Immediately before the execution the COURT II CASE IX outer garments, that is, heavy winter overcoats and similar things were taken away from the persons to be executed.
They kept their other clothes." were removed from them before they were marched to the place of execution?
A. As far as I remember it, yes, that is correct.
Q. Now where was this salvaged clothing taken after the execution of its owners?
A. The delegate of the N.S.V., who was with the Army, had them transported away immediately from the place of execution, and he then took them over.
from these people? accordance with the orders from Berlin. The money? Well, I don't Know whether that was handed over to the administrative leader of the Einsatzgruppe or whether it was my administrative leader who took it directly to the branch of the Reich Credit Office or the Reichsbank, anyhow, some German agency. The valuables, as far as I remember were sealed and were sent as parcels either directly or through the group to Berlin, but I do not know whether that was done directly or via the group. 1941 the only ones which you personally witnessed? Of Jews, I mean? the measures at Eupatoria, which I mentioned under direct examination, but that was a different matter altogether,
Q That was 1,184 men?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot give you the exact figure. That is the figure that is mentioned in Major Riese's letter. I have no reason to doubt this figure.
Q Yes, we will discuss that later. Doctor, are you acquainted with a certain Karl Jonas, which is spelled, J-o-n-a-s?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I assume that you are referring to 2d Lt. or Lt. Jonas, who belonged to the police company. in command to Hans Gabel, G-a-b-e-l of the police unit. fuehrer. Perhaps he became a Hauptsturmfuehrer during the war.
That is possible, but at that time he was a Police Lt. or a Police Captain. Whether he belonged to the SS I cannot tell you for certain. statements capable of belief?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, it is hard to answer that question. Please show me these statements, put his statements to me and then I will tell you whether according to my views they are capable of belief. It is rather difficult to give a power of attorney carte blanche that everything which Jones said was true.
Q Not everything. I am just asking you generally whether in your knowledge of him the man told the truth when he made a statement.
A I know him only so superficially, Mr. Prosecutor that I cannot permit myself to judge his love for the truth. enough to say either yes or no, certainly. Now was this Karl Jonas ever under our command, either temporarily or permanently?
A He was at Odessa when I took over the command; as far as I remember, he was Marschoffizier, officer in command of the march, when we went from Odessa to Simferopol and, as far as I remember, the Chief of a Company asked him to deal with the preparation for the moving of the old company. They had to move out as the new company had already arrived. connections with him after you left Simferopol that you remember?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, he led the march and, as far as I remember, formally speaking, he belonged to the kommando until he left, but I believe that Hauptmann Gabel was asked to take over his duties as leader.
matter of executions?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't remember that. with an execution which occurred in December 1941 from ten to fifteen kilometers outside of Simferopol?
AAccording to my recollection, Mr. Prosecutor, Jonas was not involved in that, but, as I pointed out before, six years have gone past and I cannot exclude the possibility that my memory may be wrong. the question, did you ever direct him to place a cordon of men around the site of execution in December 1941?
A I have already said, Mr. Prosecutor, that there was Sturmfuehrer Schulz who dealt with the details in my subkommando, but that does not exclude the possibility that I said to Jonas, will you supervise the matter, or will you throw a cordon around, but I cannot remember it.
Q Let me show you his affidavit. Indicate to me when you have finished readint it, if you please.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you see that Dr. Mayer gets a copy in German?
MR. WALTON: Just as soon as the page comes back, Sir.
A I have read it, Mr. Prosecutor. of that affidavit -
Q And I quote: "During my activity with Einsatzgruppe D, I had the opportunity of attending an execution. In December, 1941, Dr. Werner Braune, Chief of Sonderkommando II-B, gave the order to rope off the site of the execution" and so forth and so on.
execution about which you have just finished testifying?
A It can only be the same execution, Mr. Prosecutor, because that is the only one that I attended. reasonably correct Statement of fact.
A Well, I have read through paragraph 3. I have just glanced through it and in doing so I did not spot any important mistakes, but if you wish me to give you a concrete answer, perhaps you would allow me to read through it quickly again. It is always possible that one can overlook something. concerning paragraph 3.
MR. WALTON: If it please the Tribunal, at this time the prosecution desires to offer into evidence Document NO-5273, which is the Jonas affidavit and which will be Prosecution Exhibit 184.
DR. GAWLIK (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT SEIBERT): Your Honor, I object to the admission of this affidavit in this form and with regard to paragraph 4, as far as Jonas' statements concern the Defendant Seibert. I do not Know to what extent these statements in this phase of the trial are supposed to be of evidential value. If the prosecution intends to submit this affidavit, including paragraph 4, it should have, at the latest, submitted it during the crossexamination of Seibert. At this time it would have been of evidential value then. If the prosecution submits this affidavit without the first sentence of paragraph 4, in that case I do not have any objections, but at the moment this can only be submitted to examine the credibility of the witness Braune and in that connection is of no evidential value.
For that reason I object to the affidavit being introduced in this form.
MR. WALTON: The prosecution desires to submit the whole affidavit, Your Honor. We cannot submit parts of affidavits.
THE PRESIDENT: There is no question that if the affidavit is submitted, it must be submitted in its entirety because otherwise there is no way of studying it for authenticity. Now, with regard to paragraph four, we have another situation. It is true -- and Dr. Gawlik has the right to complain -- that if this document is to be used against Seibert, Seibert should have had an opportunity to answer to that paragraph four if he chose to do so. Now, Mr. Walton, What do you submit in connection with paragraph four? As it stands now the affidavit is accepted insofar as it concerns the present witness Braune. Now please indicate to the Tribunal What you have to present regarding paragraph four.
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, if the Tribunal feels that this is not fair, so far as Seibert is concerned, I don't know how I am going to do it... but I should like to submit the entire affidavit with the exception of the first sentence of paragraph four until the rebuttal, and then I want to submit the first sentence of paragraph four.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes... yes... yes. We will accept the document in its entirety only for the purpose of determining the authenticity of the document; but so far as probative value is concerned, the document is before us now only in connection with paragraph three. Paragraph four -- and particularly the first sentence of paragraph four-is excluded at the present time from the consideration of the Tribunal insofar as that paragraph has probative value.
MR. WALTON: That doesn't prevent me, sir, from presenting it in the rebuttal document also?
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't prevent you from re-submitting the affidavit with reference to paragraph four, nor does it prevent Dr. Gawlik -- and I know this is superfluous -- does it prevent him from objecting at that time against the document.
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, please allow me to make one short note here.
Q (By Mr. Walton) Now, Doctor, let's go to the fourth paragraph of your own affidavit.
.. do you still have the German copy of the German document, Book III-D, page 55? disposal but that you did not use it for executions because in your opinion the shooting of victims was more honorable for both parties; and I listened carefully to your direct examination today, in which you stated that you were told by your second in command, the officer Schulz, that while you were engaged in any partisan warfare, away from your headquarters, this van was used. That's correct, isn't it?
A It is not quite correct. What I said was that I did not remember exactly whether Schulz told me that then I returned from several days' action against the partisans -- in fact, I don't remember for certain if it was then that he told me about the gas van, or after; when I returned from leave. I believe that is what I said here.
Q Schulz was still under your command, even if you were away? of gas vans to carry out the Himmler order -- would be your responsibility as commander of that unit, wouldn't it?
A Yes... that, too, was my responsibility... for, Mr. Prosecutor, I had not issued a prohibition, but I don't believe that Schulz would use a gas van for we were disinclined to use the gas vans from the very first day onward. luctance in using the gas vans? like that and we did not intend to use it, but there was no possibility for me to issue any express prohibition, for, as has been testified here before, the gas van arrived with a direct order from Himmler; but I believed that I could by-pass that order because apparently somebody in Berlin -- as it was not right when we had assumed that people in Berlin thought we should make it a little easier for the men to carry out their tasks.
Q Doctor, let's turn now to the same Document Book III-D, page 1 of the English, page 1 of the German, Document NO-2856, which is Prosecution Exhibit 148. This is the affidavit of General Ohlendorf, and I particularly direct your attention to paragraph three, and that part of it, your Honors, in paragraph 3 on page 2 of Document Book it is the general-
A On the second page of the affidavit? text. I think it is on page 3 of the German text.
THE PRESIDENT: Page 3 of the original.
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, I have my book paginated in conformity with the German text; in other words, on page 1 of my book I note where it begins where the German page 2 begins... and pages two, three and four--
THE PRESIDENT: The only point I make is that the page of an original document may be different from the page in the German document book en masse.
MR. WALTON: That's right. That's why I had my book paginated so I could talk to the witness.
Q (By Mr. Walton) Does the General in his affidavit refer to the same execution as you mention in Your statement, and as you have talked about on the stand?
Q So that we understand each other, let me quote: "For this reason I personally inspected a number of executions -- for example, executions" -- the plural is used -- "which were carried out by Kommando 11-b under the direction of Dr. Werner Braune; executions by Kommando 11-a under Sturmbannfuehrer Zapp in Nikolajew; and a smaller execution by Kommando 10-b under the leadership of Alois Persterer and Ameniev." That is what I have reference to; and your answer also applies to that sentence -can only refer to that execution at Simferopol of which I have spoken so far.
.. in his affidavit about supervising an execution on December 1941 in Simferopol, which is contained in Document Book 1, page 108 of the English, page 141 of the German, and is Document NO-3055, Prosecution Exhibit 28, and the incident referred to is in paragraphs 3, 4 and 5. Is your answer the same, that this was the same execution about which all testimony has been given? Prosecutor. your career as commanding officer of Kommando 11-b, Krimchaks were also killed. Can you tell the Tribunal whether Krimchaks constituted any particular threat for the security of the German army?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I can only say the same again as I said about the Jews - they were Jews... they came under the Fuehrer Order... and in accordance with that order it was not for us to examine whether the individual person constituted an acute danger. That was outside our power of decision. the Communist party?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the general public considered them to be Jews. At this moment I cannot tell you, whether we made any difference at the time when making general investigations about the Jews. I cannot remember any differences being made.
THE PRESIDENT: What language did Krimchaks speak, witness?
A Mr. President, if I remember it properly, they were Jews, they were of Jewish origin, they were of the Jewish faith, and the Jews themselves, and the population, considered them to be Jews; but in my view they spoke a language which was similar to the Turkish language.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY MR. WALTON: lines as with the other Jews... that is, was it effected through a Council of Elders?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I was not present when the registration took place. It is possible that they were registered together; but it is also possible that a second committee dealt with them, but I cannot tell you for certain. Elders was, in the individual case, requested to register the Jews; or, where the Jews had registered themselves, the Council of Elders was to turn this list over to the Kommando. Can you tell the Tribunal whether the members of the Jewish Council knew for what reasons this registration was carried out?
A I don't think that they knew of that, Mr. Prosecutor, but I am bound to assume that things were handled the same way as elsewhere -that is to say, that the sub-kommando leader told them at the time that this was being done for the purpose of resettlement into other areas. collaborated in the registration were also killed together with the registered Jews after their work had been completed? Kommando was located in Simferopol, the city of Simferopol itself?
A Not my Kommando, Mr. Prosecutor... I gave a detailed explanation of that matter. When I arrived, where sub-kommandos were sent -and may I refer to that because I gave a detailed account and I used documents in giving my account...
taining security in the Simferopol area during the month of December 1941, was it not?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Now, Doctor, let's refer to Document Book II-D, page 20 of the English, page 25 of the German, which is Document 2828, Prosecution Exhibit 86. I have very carefully read the transcript of Your testimony as you spoke of this document last week. How many of this total, or what percent of this total of 2929 Jews and Communists executed, as shown in this report, were chargeable to Kommando 11-b?
A I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, in My direct examination I pointed out that I an of the conviction that my Kommando did not take part in those shootings, and I also gave the reasons. I said that my sub-kommandos began their march in the first days of December, and that certainly they did not take part in executions on the very first day. On the other hand, that report of the 12th of December, that is to say -- we are speaking of the report which was written on the 12th of December in Berlin, which means that even if it had been sent by wireless, a few days would have passed before the report would have reached Berlin from my sub-kommando, and for that reason I think it was out of the question that my sub-kommandos were involved in this matter.