QWhen Dr. Best requested you to serve actually in the Gestapo in '38, you would have been at liberty to quit, would you not?
AMr. Prosecutor, I was not asked at the time. It was anything but a request in the situation in which I was.
QYou could have withdrawn from the Gestapo and the SD in 1938, could you not?
AMr. Prosecutor, it wasn't as simple as all that. I believe in this Tribunal it has been quoted once before, that already in peace time Heydrich said, "The road away from us leads via the concentration camp." I explained in detail how the situation was for me. At the time after I had become an official formally, of course, I had to accept this order. In what manner I accepted it and how I carried it out I explained here and it is quite clear I did everything that was in my power at the time in order to be able to return to the SD work and I would like to assure you I would not have been sorry if, according to these attempts, they had released me again from being an official, but the financial situation in the SD at the time was such that one attached greatest importance to my saving the SD from paying me.
QWhen were you removed from the membership rolls of the Gestapo?
AI didn't quite understand the question.
QIn 1938, according to your own testimony, you entered upon Gestapo duties; is that correct?
AI already said that was in the fall of 1937 when, according to definite promises
QAll right, 1937 you entered you entered upon your Gestapo duties?
ABut I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that one cannot separate the reasons from these facts. It would give entirely the wrong impression. I said what my opinion was, and I said because of which promises I joined the State Police, and must.....
QIt has been said on the regard several times, witness, and we are perfectly familiar with it. I merely want to establish the fact that in 1937 or 1938 you entered upon your Gestapo duties.
Now, you had further testified that upon your return from Russia you went back to the State Police office in Halle; is that correct?
AYes. But I also said
QNow, I would like to know if you still were a member of the Gestapo when you went to Norway?
AOf course, I still worked for the State Police from joining it until the end of the war.
QThat's what I wanted to know.
AI wish to correct one thing, Mr. Prosecutor, I had forgotten at the moment that during the two years when I was in the Reich Student Association I was not.
QAll right. Then I would like to know when your name came off the membership rolls of the Gestapo. That's what I asked you.
ANo, I was given leave at the time.
QOh, I see.
AAnd neither did an service nor did I carry out any functions.
QAfter the Gestapo made their complaint against you, did you continue to neglect your duties in Gestapo matters intentionally?
AI continued to neglect it and the result was that I was transferred.
QWell, how was it that in less than a year you were made the deputy chief of the Gestapo office at Coblenz?
AI already explained that not after two years, but only after three and a half years I was made government councilor, Regierungsrat, but when I had been appointed Regierungsrat, government councilor, I was bound to get an office. Except for the very large offices in Berlin where it might have been that a government councilor was only a deputy. I do not think there was an office throughout the Reich where this could happen.
QAfter you entered on your Gestapo duties, isn't it true that in less than a year you were made deputy chief, regardless of your rank, in the Gestapo office at Coblenz?
AI can only say that this rank cannot be segregated here. As government assessor, I could only become a deputy in a place like Coblenz.
QThen a year later you became Gestapo chief at Wesermuende where you remained for about a year, did you not?
AYes, for one year I was chief of the State Police office in Wesermuende.
QAnd then you became chief of the Gestapo at Halle. Now, which is the larger Gestapo office, the one a Wesermuende or the one at Halle?
AThe one in Halle is larger. They had more offials. Whether the territory was larger or smaller, I don't know at the moment.
QNow, do you think that you would have been given more and more responsibility if you had continued to neglect your Gestapo duties in favor of your SD work?
AMr. Prosecutor, after I had been given this responsible position during the war as an official, I considered it my duty to do my duty in this position as well.
QAnd you performed your duties as a Gestapo official to the very best of your ability; is that true?
AThere was no other choice for me, Mr Prosecutor, during the war.
QWell, isn't it true that each transfer in the Gestapo service from 1939 to October, 1941 in reality was a promotion for you even though not a promotion in rank?
ATo be quite honest, after having been in the SD main office as a Standartenfuehrer which became a Brigadefuehrer office, after 1939, the development in the State Police which did not advance me any further than to an Obersturmfuehrer, I did not consider an advantage.
QAll right, Doctor, let's consider your statement made not under oath, which is in document book 3_D, page 54 of the English, page 94 or the German, and is document NO-4234, prosecution's exhibit 163.
Now, Doctor, you state in October, 1941 that you were detailed for service in Einsatzgruppe D?
AYes, that is right. I said that in the first days of October I received the decree from Berlin.
QNow let's consider, in connection with your statement, your service record which is in document book 3-D, that same book, and. which is on page 64 of the English, 106 of the German and is document NO-3249, prosecution's exhibit 166. Now, on page 67, your Honors, and on page 111 of the German, almost at the bottom of the page it says in this service record, from September 1941 until July 1942 he was assigned to Einsatzgruppe D and was a Kommandofuehrer. Now, your service record then is at variance with your statement, or what I would like to know now, which is the correct statement of fact; that you were a Kommandofuehrer from November of '41 or from September of '41 as stated in your service record?
AI believe I already explained this during the direct examination. It says here from September '41 until July '42. The author of this promotion, recommendation by promotion, had decrees in his files like this. My actual order to go into the assignment and my recall from the assignment are shown here. It is quite possible and it is nothing exceptional that the order into the assignment was given at the end of September. I can only assure you again that on 18 October I left Berlin. I believe my document book, Mr. Prosecutor, will contain the original document according to which, on 17 October in Berlin, I was given the order to move, and the trip ticket was given to my driver and myself so I could not have left before the 18th. I also explained that I was in Nikolajew first and that at the beginning of November I went to Odessa and exactly on 10 November was put in charge of the Kommando. This will become obvious and clear when I add that I certainly have no reason to extend my assignment six weeks longer. I said that at the end of August I handed over a Kommando and returned at the end of October.
It says in these files here, July '42. It can be shown but there is a difference between the document and the actually starting service which is six weeks, but this time also exists when I finished with my assignment.
QAll right. On your service record which we are considering in connection with your statement on page 66 of the English in document book 3_D, and on page 109 of the German, it shows that in 1939 on the 20th of April you were promoted to SS_Sturmbannfuehrer. Is that correct?
AYes, that is right.
QAnd by the time that October, 1941, had come it had been over two years since you had had a promotion, even in wartime; is that not correct?
AYes.
QNow, you knew, as the defendant Blume has already testified, that you would never be promoted further unless you had had foreign service with troops, did you not?
AI would only have been promoted if I had done service with the troops abroad, foreign service? No, I cannot confirm this as an exclusive fact. I am sure that a great number of promotions were made although the individuals had not been assigned.
QDoes it occur to you that promotion in your own case was a little slow? You testified that you had done your duty as best you could, and here it is over two years in wartime and you were not promoted. For that reason were you not willing to take service in Russia or any foreign service to see if it wouldn't speed up your promotion?
AMr. Prosecutor, it is an error if you presume that holding the rank which I had and my age, I should have been promoted every year. There were very few exceptions, but I believe those were exceptional people. I did not consider my promotion to Obersturmbannfuehrer after four or five years between being a Sturnbannfuehrer and an Obersturm bannfuehrer was nothing exceptional, and I can only assure you that at the time when I was sent to the assignment I really did not think of promotion.
QYou were also a two-fold expert, both in Gestapo and SD matters, were you not, at the time of your assignment to Russian territory?
AI know the SD tasks very well when I was sent to the assignment, and I knew my tasks as chief of a state police office when I joined the assignment, yes.
QDo you believe that you would have received an assignment to an Einsatzgruppe unless you had been familiar with the SD and Gestapo matters or in either of these spheres of activity?
AMr. Prosecutor, this is a hypothetical question. What might have happened to a person in the war, I really cannot say now. I don't know whether fate would have given me such a task if I had not belonged to the State Police at the time.
QIt's been repeatedly testified here that certain members of Einsatzgruppes attempted to get out and join the Wehrmacht. Now, I ask you essentially the sane question. Do you believe that you would have been assigned to an Einsatzgruppe unless you had been familiar with the tasks of the State Police or the Gestapo and the SD?
AMr. Prosecutor, you refer to my Army service I must tell you unfortunately that my state of health was such that I could not have become a soldier. I was examined repeatedly and every time I was found not suitable for military service. May I explain it in one sentence? I have two serious defects in the shoulder joints.
QThere is very little difference between the service which you rendered a Kommandofuehrer and a comparable rank in the Wehrmacht. You had plenty of hard work to do while you were in Russia, did you not?
AI don't know what you consider hard work. Mr. Prosecutor. In any case with my state of health I was able to carry out this task, but to give an example, I could not throw hand grenades or overcome obstacles because my shoulder joints easily became dislocated.
QYour comparable rank with that in the Wehrmacht was that of a Major, was it not?
AIf one wants to compare this, I think this comparison is poor -one could compare it to a Major.
QMajors in the Wehrmacht did not throw many hand grenades, did they?
AMr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether you have been a soldier, but I believe that the war would have been quite different to what you imagine it.
QWhen and where did you first learn of the Fuehrer order?
AI explained this in detail here already, Mr. Prosecutor.
QWell, tell us again.
AI heard about it in the first place when I was in Nikolajew and it wasmy task to gather information about my task.
QYou have stated here that you rejected this Fuehrer order for humanitarian reasons, but that you considered it your duty to carry out the order as it was an order of your supreme commander; is that correct?
AYes, that is how it is, if you add that for me there was no other possibility in the situation in which I was.
QIt is further true, is it not, that you never tried to persuade General Ohlendorf to release you from your assignment as you were sure that he would have refused you?
AI testified that I considered it pointless and therefore I did not do it.
QAnd that you did nothing in order to be released from your assignment with an Einsatzgruppe; is that correct?
AMr. Prosecutor, please tell me what I should have done. I don't know what I should have done.
QIn other words, you are unable to tell the Tribunal that you ever did anything to be relieved from the assignment that forced you to carry out an order of which you disapproved?
AI did not do anything because I could not do anything.
QWhat type of force was used in order to compel you to obey the Fuehrer order?
AI believe I have already given explanations about this, about what force would have been used if I had disobeyed it.
QThat's not what I asked you. I asked you what force was used in order to get you to carry it out? was there any force used?
AI said that the refusal to obey would have meant my end. I I believe it has been said very often during this trial.
QIf I understood your direct testimony correctly, nobody used any force. You didn't try to get away from it. The order was given to you and you carried it out and you communicated to no one your reluctance and your revulsion to carry out this order. You only acted because you were convinced that you had to obey orders issued by your supreme commander; is that correct?
AThese are several questions you mention now, Mr. Prosecutor, about the first question I can only say that there is a very effective power which can be used not in a physical sense. I don't know what should threaten a person more than the fact that he can lose his life. On the second point I can only say that an assumption by you. I believe, there is no doubt what my attitude was to the order and how difficult it was for no to carry it out.
QYou have further explained that the killings which were ordered by Hitler were not aimed to the extermination of the Jews as a race, but were security measures which were necessary as the Jews were the most active and powerful part of the Communists; have you not?
AThat wasmy conviction at the time and still is now.
QDoes it make any difference in your opinion whether one person or a number of persons are killed for security reasons or racial inferiority reasons?
AFor me there is a great difference whether, during the war at the front as a soldier, they give me theorder to shoot somebody because it is essential for the war, or whether one tells no without any reasons that people are to be killed arbitrarily.
QWell, wouldthe killing of people for security reasons, that is, for the purpose of preventing acts which they eventually would carry out in the future, be less criminal than the killing of the same person for reasons that they were members of an inferior race?
AI did not quite understand the question, Mr. Prosecutor. May I have it again?
QYes. Would not the killing of people for security reasons, that is, for the purpose of preventing acts which they would carry out eventually in the future, be less criminal than the killing of the same persons for the reasons that they were members of an inferior race?
AMr. Prosecutor, durin this war millions of people were killed and one cannot say that they constituted an immediate danger. They were killed at the order of the supreme commanders of the state or the supreme war commanders, and I already said that I do not assume the right to judge this as being criminal.
QWell, were most of the people killed by your Kommando guilty of crimes?
AMr. Prosecutor, I can only reply again they were not guilty of any crimes any more than hundreds of thousands of German women and children who were killed by bombs. They were just as guilty and just as innocent. In both cases I start from the assumption that the responsible men gave these orders because they considered it necessary in order to attain their end for the war.
QThen you are attempting to tell us that some people were shot by your Kommando without their casesbeing investigated as to whether they had committed any acts against the German Reich or not?
AI said already during the direct examination that no investigation was made because there wasnot time for investigation anymore.
MR. WALTON:At this time, Your Honor, I am just about to go into the documents.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes. Witness, I would just like to ask one question on a statement you made by way of comparison between those that you were compelled to kill and German women and children who met their death as a result of bombing. Do you know of any case where an order was issued by Allied authorities specifically that certain German women and children should be killed?
THE WITNESS:Your Honor, I do not know that kind of an order, but I can only assume that the bombs were thrown without an order and I cannot assume that somebody would have hadthe hope, the deceptive hope, that when thousands of planes bombed a certain area systematically that no women and children should be killed on that occasion and what I witnessed in Germany, your Honor, was so extensive that the consideration one could have hoped not to hit women and children is completely excluded in my mind.
THE PRESIDENT:But you do not know of any order which called upon any designated unit of the Allied Armed Forces to go into any German area and to kill women and children by shooting?
THE WITNESS:Your Honor, I did not get to know any such order, but I must assume that in Dresden, for example, where the city was bombed with heavy bombs, shortly afterwards, according to what I heard, those places where the survivors had escaped to were bombed, and during the next days as I heard, people were attacked by dive bombers when they were in the street. I cannot assume that this was done without orders.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, it wasall the result of bombing?
THE WITNESS:Of course, your Honor, although during the different bombing in centuries one cannot call this bombing.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, it falls into the same category as the bombing of cities by German forces, for instance, the bombing of London, the bombing of Rotterdam, the bombing of Coventry. We all understand that. There was bombing on both sides.
THE WITNESS:Your Honor, I cannot make any great difference there. We were told at the time that they were taking military posts but I am convinced that those who gave orders to attack the city of London also had to expect this, that innocent defenseless people were killed.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes. The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Doctor, let us pass to some of your specific activities. In your statement, which is in Document Book III-D on page 54 of the English, page 94 of the German. It is Document NO-4234, Prosecution Exhibit 163. In paragraph 3 thereof, you relate one instance of the execution of a number of Jews. Who rounded up these Jews?
A.Under direct examination I said that prior to my term of office, identification and registration was carried out, that is to say, before I assumed office, and it was the commander of 10-A that dealt with it; when orders had been received from the Army for the Commander to concentrate the Jews, they were rounded up.
Q.Did I understand you to say that the commnader of 10-A -- What is this designation? Will you go a little further into details?
A.Under direct examination I said that at Simferopol a subkommando, which was part of Kommando 10-A, a few days after arrival was subordinated to me. The way I remember it is that originally it was Kommando 10-A.
Q.Thank you. The translation came aver in better shape that time. Well, approximately how many Jews were there in this number which were executed?
A.I have already said here that I cannot give you a definite figure. As far as I remember, I gave you the exact number of Jews present in peacetime in Simferopol. I also told you that at least half of them had escaped, but I cannot give you the exact figure.
Q.Can you give me an approximate figure?
A.No, I cannot do that either, unless I can just work it out this way: There were approximately 10,000 before, COURT II CASE IX half of whom had escaped and from that I can deduce that in all circumstances there must have been fewer than 4,000 to 5,000, but I cannot give you an exact figure.
Q.Then there were more than 1,000 executed during this one instance, is that what I am to gather?
A.I think I am certain that there were more than 1,000.
Q.Were women and children included in this number in this incident?
A.Yes, but I have to add that on account of the rumors and on account of people escaping I think there were only a very few children. Any way I myself never saw children being shot, but there were women among them for certain.
Q.Do you remember approximately how large the execution squad was that performed this execution?
A.They were detachments, I believe, of ten men. In each case there was a military commander. The exact number of these squads I cannot give you.
Q.Were they composed of Ordnungs Police or State Police and Wehrmacht and Gestapo?
A.I have already told you that the majority of them were companies from the regular police, Ordnungs Polizei, but I cannot give you any details as to their composition, all the more so because I believe that I remember that they were being relieved at the time.
Q.Am I to assume that these executions were ordered by the Army?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, it happened the way I described it to you. The Liaison Leader came and told Herr Ohlendorf the the Army demanded the execution to be carried out before Christmas. Naturally, above all, there was the COURT II CASE IX Fuehrer Order, unchanged and valid as before.
Q.Well, why didn't you include this fact, since it was so important, in your affidavit, or, I am sorry, in your statement?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, I believe I can remember perfectly well that I told Herr Wartenberg at the time that the things which he had put into the affidavit only constituted a small fraction, but I believe, I am certain I told him that it was the Army which gave that order. In fact, I believe that I can remember just new that that is contained in my statement. Perhaps I can just have alook. Yes, I have found it. May I quote:
"The 11th Army had ordered that the execution at Simferopol was to be finished before Christmas."
That is in my own statement which I deposed at the time. It is on page 2, Mr. Prosecutor, and it is the last paragraph.
Q.By that you meant that the Army ordered all executions of Jews in Simforopol to be finished by Christmas, is that correct? Was it this one that you specifically state, or all others?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, the Fuehrer Order was there and now the Army said "We want it finished before Christmas." I wasn't able at the time to find out all the reasons. Maybe the reasons were strategic reasons, military reasons, which caused the Army to issue that order. Maybe they were territorial questions. Maybe they were questions of food. The Army at that time was afraid that hundreds of thousands of people might have to starve to death during that winter, because of the food situation, but all these are suppositions on my part and I cannot tell you what was the ultimate reason for that order given by the Army.
Q.Are you trying to tell us now that the execution of all undesirables was ordered because there might not be enough food for them?
A.No, Mr. Prosecutor, all I wanted to say was that might have been the reason for the Army to issue that order at that particular time. The over-all principles of the matter were not affected by that.
Q.Were there any executions carried out in Simferopol after Christmas, 1941?
A.Certainly, executions were carried out after Christmas, 1941, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.Isn't it a fact that the morale factor of the German soldier was of concern to the Army and it felt that it had to restrain the zeal of the Security Police for executions during the Christmas season?
A.I am sorry, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't quite get the meaning of your question.
Q.You have testified, and others have testified, that the killing of Jews and Gypsies, and other undesirables affected the morale of the men. Isn't it true that as a morale factor for the German soldiers the Army felt that it had to restrain the executions during the Christmas season and therefore it hastened the execution of those people who were selected for execution prior to Christmas so that there would be no executions during the Christmas season?
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Walton, before that question is answered, do I understand you heard the witness say that executions affected the morale of his men? I don't recall that statement.
MR. WALTON:More specifically, Sir, he testified that Obersturmbann-fuehrer Schulz came to him on his return from his anti partisan activities and told him of the execution COURT II CASE IX by the use of the gas van and that he didn't like to use it any more because there was a great effect on the morale of his men.
THE PRESIDENT:That is true with regard to gas vans. That is an established fact. We have heard that from the witness stand, even from Ohlendorf, but generally I don't recall that the witness stated that executions in themselves affected the morale of his men, and, if he did not make that statement, then your question is founded upon something which is not in the evidence and that will make it all the more difficult to give you a precise answer.
MR. WALTON:And it is also not a question for crossexamination, if he did not mention it. I am sorry.
THE WITNESS:May I add something, Your Honor? May I correct one point? Mr. Prosecutor, as far as I recall, I did not mention morale in connection with the gas vans. I never mentioned the word, "morale." I believe I told you that Schulz had said to me that there was a heavier strain on the men than in shooting. The word, "morale", I did not mention.
MR. WALTON:I will withdraw the previous question.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Did your kommando perform any executions during the Christmas season of 1941?
A.As far as I remember, after the shootings which have already been mentioned, up to Christmas no further shootings were carried out. They were carried out approximately between the 10th and 15th. That is why I am surprised at the figures which are contained in further reports, because that was when the landings happened in Feodesia, Eupatonia etc.
Q.Was this execution carried out in a military and humane manner in accordance with General Ohlendorf's directives?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you ever discuss the methods or any facts concerning this execution with your superior, General Ohlendorf?
A.I believe, I did discuss it with Aim and that once we had been placed before such a difficult task, I essentially agreed with his directives.
Q.Did he have any criticism to make of the manner in which these executions were performed, to you?
A.Concerning the executions at Simferopol? No, because these executions were carried out in accordance with those directives.
Q.Doctor, the weather in Simferopol during December is quite cold, is it not?
A.In December, no, Mr. Prosecutor, As far as I remember it isn't very cold, only a heavy frost. In the Grimea, the southern part of which is almost sub-tropical, where one can go for walks under palms the severe winter of 1941-42 set in only in January I believe, and we had it between Christmas and New Year, because I can remember very well New Year's Eve, when we had to expect enemy parachutists and when the landing at Feodosia had taken place, I can remember that it was a white night.
Q.Well, prior t the actual shootings, these victims had to remove their outer clothing, didn't they?
A.I believe I told Herr Wartenberg something on that point and I said to him that they had to take off their heavy overcoats, but all their other clothes were left to them.
Q.Let me call your attention to paragraph 3 again, which is on page 55 of the English and on page 96 of the German and I quote, "Immediately before the execution the COURT II CASE IX outer garments, that is, heavy winter overcoats and similar things were taken away from the persons to be executed.
They kept their other clothes."
Now, the overcoats then were the only things that were removed from them before they were marched to the place of execution?
A.As far as I remember it, yes, that is correct.
Q.Now where was this salvaged clothing taken after the execution of its owners?
A.The delegate of the N.S.V., who was with the Army, had them transported away immediately from the place of execution, and he then took them over.
QAnd what went with the money and valuables collected from these people?
AMy adminstrative leader took charge of them in accordance with the orders from Berlin. The money? Well, I don't Know whether that was handed over to the administrative leader of the Einsatzgruppe or whether it was my administrative leader who took it directly to the branch of the Reich Credit Office or the Reichsbank, anyhow, some German agency. The valuables, as far as I remember were sealed and were sent as parcels either directly or through the group to Berlin, but I do not know whether that was done directly or via the group.
QIs this series of executions prior to Christmas 1941 the only ones which you personally witnessed? Of Jews, I mean?
AThat is the only execution I attended, apart from the measures at Eupatoria, which I mentioned under direct examination, but that was a different matter altogether,
QThat was 1,184 men?
AMr. Prosecutor, I cannot give you the exact figure. That is the figure that is mentioned in Major Riese's letter. I have no reason to doubt this figure.
QYes, we will discuss that later. Doctor, are you acquainted with a certain Karl Jonas, which is spelled, J-o-n-a-s?
AMr. Prosecutor, I assume that you are referring to 2d Lt. or Lt. Jonas, who belonged to the police company.
QHis rank is given as Hauptsturmfuehrer and second in command to Hans Gabel, G-a-b-e-l of the police unit.
AAt that time he could not have been a Hauptsturmfuehrer. Perhaps he became a Hauptsturmfuehrer during the war.