DR. MAYER: Your Honor, I have finished with this question now.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. MAYER: And I shall give a small excerpt in the document book.
THE WITNESS: May I explain something further on this? I do have the newspaper cutting in front of me, but I may assure you that what I said was from my memory after I read this newspaper cutting a few days ago.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q (By Dr. Mayer) To conclude this complex of questions connections with your assignment in the East, I would like to ask you, Witness, how long you worked in the Crimea? I was then attached to the First Armored Army. I joined it in the area of Rostov. From there I advanced, together with my commando, and in the second half of August I reached Maikop in the northern part of the Caucasus, but already after a few days I was recalled from there. This recall had already been issued in July, but owing to this advance it only reached me at this time.
Q When did you return to the Reich? was made my successor. At the end of August I handed the commando over to him, and in the last days of August, as far as I remember, I travelled to Vorosilov. I informed Einsatzgruppen Chief Vierkamp that I was going to the Reich. I had to wait for the plane for a few days and then traveled by plane via Nikolaev, Bucharest, Belgrade, Vienna, Berlin back to the Reich.
Q What did you do after you returned to Germany?
entitled, which amounted to four to five weeks. Then in the second half of October I took over the State Police Office at Halle again for a short period. of students, and how did this come about? January, 1942, the Reich student leader, Dr. Scheele, at the time called me to see him in Salzburg and informed me that I had leave to join his office. I was to be put in charge of the German Academic Exchange Service, and also was to become honorary chief of the Foreign office of the Reich Students Association.
Q You were also prepared to take up this appointment? because they were matters which had always interested me very much. task? suggested me for this position, just because he knew that I was interested in students and high school problems in particular in other words, that he recommended me. Exchange Service? association and had the task to take care of an exchange of students, teachers and professors with other people abroad.
Q What were your tasks in the Reich Student Association?
A My office had several departments. First of all it was my task to look after the relations between the student association in other countries and the cooperation with them, the cultural political cooperation, the care of the foreign students studying in Germany.
Even in 1943 and 1944 we had about eight thousand foreign students in the Reich. This was my main task during those two years, the cooperation and the care for these foreign students. Beyond that, we looked after German students who had been injured during the war so that they could study abroad, in as far as this was possible, in spite of the war. Apart from that, in the German Academic Exchange Service it was my task to administer all the means and the financial department of the Studienwerk fuer Auslaender, a student association for students abroad. It gave scholarships to about 2000 foreign students per year. This amounted to about two to three millions. The Exchange Service also gave such exchange scholarships for German students who wanted to go abroad and study there.
Q Were lecture evenings also arranged? Reich, everything was done that was possible to be done during the war. The cooperation was very close in spite of the war. In most German high schools I still started German Foreign Student Associations. They were particularly keen on cooperation, and part of this work was cultural evenings, lecture evenings, musical evenings. Inspection trips, etc., were carried out by them, and sightseeing trips. One of the nicest tasks I remember was looking after about two or three thousand French students. These French students, through a law by their Government, had to do labor service and had been sent to Germany for that purpose. Of course, they were very bitter about being called up to do this. Many of them had been sent to locations where they had to do work which was not in line with their training and their interest.
Here, for once, I saw an opportunity to bring the academic youth of Germany and France closer together in spite of the war. Everywhere I appointed or had suitable German students appointed to visit these French students wherever they worked, and after getting over their first distress they really were in very close and friendly contact. I saw to it that these students were given positions which suited their ability and their interests. As far as possible we got literature for them, newspapers and periodicals. We invited them to our entertainments. We tried to get leave for them to attend and in 1944 I finally even succeeded to get a number of the students to study in German universities and to be released for this purpose.
Q Why did this work finish in the winter of 1944? which made this work senseless. The enemy was on the borders of the Reich. The communications with other countries had been cut off, and in the Reich there was no room for such activity.
Q When did Kaltenbrunner send you to Norway? as commander of the Security Police and the SD in Oslo, and Kaltenbrunner ordered me to go there. In the middle of January, 1945, I left for Oslo. and the SD?
Q How long were you in Norway then? capitulation, and then as a prisoner until 1 July 1947.
Q In Norway did they start proceedings against you? me. For about fifteen months I was in a single cell. At the end of March, 1947, after twenty-one months, for the first time the Norwegian police interrogated me. Shortly afterwards the interrogation officer told me, it was suggested to the prosecution that they should stop proceedings against me. The proceedings were discontinued, and in the middle of June '47, after two years of imprisonment, I was transferred to an internment camp. to find out that there was nothing against you?
DR. MAYER: Your Honor, this concludes my direct examination with this witness. I have no further questions to address to him. On this occasion I would like to thank the Tribunal very sincerely for giving me opportunity to carry out the questioning of the witness to such an extent.
THE PRESIDENT: And I want too to congratulate you on the very systematic manner in which you disposed of the direct examination. Do any defense counsel desire to crossexamine the witness?
DR. GAWLIK: Dr. Gawlik for Seibert. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, do you know the co-defendant Seibert?
Q When did this happen? in 1936. After all these years I am not quite sure of it any more.
in Russia? At the time Seibert was in charge of Department III in the reporting section, and already at that time had close contact with the Army. tasks? orders for executive tasks. Seibert had nothing to do with executive tasks. to you. Next question, during your work as commando leader, did Herr Seibert ever inspect an execution by your commando?
A No, I did not personally observe that. During the executions in Simferopol in December, 1941, Herr Seibert was on leave. Apart from that I never heard anything of the kind, that he ever inspected executions.
Q You just talked about Herr Seibert's leave in December '41. Do you know how long Herr Seibert was on leave at the time?
A When he left I do not know. I only remember that he had already gone when I arrived in the Crimea at the end of November. His return however I remember very well.
Q When was this?
A That was on Christmas Eve 1941. Seibert was Father Christmas to us at the time. He brought us parcels and letters from home. He came right into our Christmas celebrations.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. KOESSL: Dr. Koessl for Schubert. BY DR. KOESSL: is a document, NO_3055, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 28. It is the affidavit by Schubert of 24 February 1947. Witness, do you know this affidavit? have it in front of me. by you in the direct examination? and his activity during the execution, do they conform with the facts as far as you know? quite honest, I was surprised when I read this affidavit. At the moment I cannot find the place, but I think at one place Schubert even says that the execution, the place of execution was a bit remote, and could not be seen from outside.
A Oh, yes, I have found it now. It says here, I quote: "to see that the location of the shooting be remote enough." I don't understand this because when Schubert went out there the place Of execution was fixed already and the execution was carried out. There was nothing to be inspected or arrange that this place be remote because this place was already fixed and determined, and Herr Schubert could not change this. But also the rest of the contents.... I already said I did not meet Schubert on the place there. Only when I went out there with Herr Ohlendorf, or late in the afternoon or evening I heard from Herr Ohlendorf that he had sent Schubert out as well in order to see whether everything had been carried out according to the directives given by him.
On the place out there, I saw this myself, was a subkommando leader, a Sturmbannfuehrer, there was the Chief of Police, another captain, and then, I still remember, another Hauptsturmfuehrer who was out there. All these were people who had higher positions and higher ranks than Schubert. I do not understand, therefore, why he should say here and explain it in a way as if he was the head of everything, as if he was in charge of everything.
Q Could Schubert give instructions to the leaders mentioned? impossible. I am convinced that if Herr Schubert had tried to give orders to the Sturmbannfuehrer or the two captains, that it would have been pointed out that he was of lower rank.
Q What tasks did Schubert have on that day as far as you know? he had no other tasks except to see to it on the place that the directives given by Herr Ohlendorf were complied with. I did not understand it to mean at the time that Schubert had been given special instructions to interfere with the actual event. Schubert had taken a hand? course, if he made some arrangements for the guarding and some guard would not do his duty, he could have said, "You must do your duty here." In that way he could do it, yes, but on the actual place several leaders who had superior ranks to Schubert were present and they were in charge there. carrying out of the executions?
A Noo Schubert had nothing to do with this. He was adjutant and pay master of the corps and had nothing to do with the actual tasks of a subkommando.
DR. KOESSL: Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defense counsel desire to crossexamine the witness?
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: If not, Mr. Walton will proceed with the crossexamination on behalf of the prosecution.
CROSS_EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTON:
Q Dr. Braune, it is true, is it not, that you joined the SD voluntarily?
Q And that was in 1934, was it not? entry into the SD you became a member of the SS?
A I already said this in my direct examination. By joining the SD I became a member of the SS special formation called SD. knew that when you entered the SD you, as a matter of course, became at the same time a member of the SS, did you not?
A Yes, I can only repeat what I said before; I became part of the special formation of the SS which was called SD. didn't you? known in 1936 as the most ideal and most unselfish representative of National Socialism and was highly regarded by the population. May we assume that you also were of this opinion?
A Yes, I had the same opinion, Mr. Prosecutor. the SS? and from my own knowledge I have no reason to change this opinion basically at all.
I believe that in the last years before the end of the war many people would have liked to join the SS and become SS leaders who don't want to have anything to do with it now. made to you that you should have yourself appointed to a position in the Gestapo in order that your salary might be paid by the Gestapo, you agreed to this suggestion, did you not?
A I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, I have explained this in my direct examination in all detail and cannot add anything further to this.
Q Well, you can at least answer this question. If it is true you can say it is true. If it is not you can deny it. You agreed to the suggestion, didn't you? agreed to this purely formal solution.
Q When Dr. Best requested you to serve actually in the Gestapo in '38, you would have been at liberty to quit, would you not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I was not asked at the time. It was anything but a request in the situation in which I was. could you not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it wasn't as simple as all that. I believe in this Tribunal it has been quoted once before, that already in peace time Heydrich said, "The road away from us leads via the concentration camp." I explained in detail how the situation was for me. At the time after I had become an official formally, of course, I had to accept this order. In what manner I accepted it and how I carried it out I explained here and it is quite clear I did everything that was in my power at the time in order to be able to return to the SD work and I would like to assure you I would not have been sorry if, according to these attempts, they had released me again from being an official, but the financial situation in the SD at the time was such that one attached greatest importance to my saving the SD from paying me.
Q When were you removed from the membership rolls of the Gestapo?
A I didn't quite understand the question. Gestapo duties; is that correct? to definite promises
Q All right, 1937 you entered you entered upon your Gestapo duties?
A But I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that one cannot separate the reasons from these facts. It would give entirely the wrong impression. I said what my opinion was, and I said because of which promises I joined the State Police, and must..... we are perfectly familiar with it. I merely want to establish the fact that in 1937 or 1938 you entered upon your Gestapo duties.
Now, you had further testified that upon your return from Russia you went back to the State Police office in Halle; is that correct?
A Yes. But I also said Gestapo when you went to Norway? it until the end of the war.
Q That's what I wanted to know.
A I wish to correct one thing, Mr. Prosecutor, I had forgotten at the moment that during the two years when I was in the Reich Student Association I was not.
Q All right. Then I would like to know when your name came off the membership rolls of the Gestapo. That's what I asked you. continue to neglect your duties in Gestapo matters intentionally? transferred. deputy chief of the Gestapo office at Coblenz? three and a half years I was made government councilor, Regierungsrat, but when I had been appointed Regierungsrat, government councilor, I was bound to get an office. Except for the very large offices in Berlin where it might have been that a government councilor was only a deputy. I do not think there was an office throughout the Reich where this could happen.
Q After you entered on your Gestapo duties, isn't it true that in less than a year you were made deputy chief, regardless of your rank, in the Gestapo office at Coblenz?
A I can only say that this rank cannot be segregated here. As government assessor, I could only become a deputy in a place like Coblenz. you remained for about a year, did you not? Wesermuende.
Q And then you became chief of the Gestapo at Halle. Now, which is the larger Gestapo office, the one a Wesermuende or the one at Halle?
A The one in Halle is larger. They had more offials. Whether the territory was larger or smaller, I don't know at the moment. more responsibility if you had continued to neglect your Gestapo duties in favor of your SD work?
A Mr. Prosecutor, after I had been given this responsible position during the war as an official, I considered it my duty to do my duty in this position as well. very best of your ability; is that true?
Q Well, isn't it true that each transfer in the Gestapo service from 1939 to October, 1941 in reality was a promotion for you even though not a promotion in rank? as a Standartenfuehrer which became a Brigadefuehrer office, after 1939, the development in the State Police which did not advance me any further than to an Obersturmfuehrer, I did not consider an advantage.
Q All right, Doctor, let's consider your statement made not under oath, which is in document book 3_D, page 54 of the English, page 94 or the German, and is document NO-4234, prosecution's exhibit 163.
Now, Doctor, you state in October, 1941 that you were detailed for service in Einsatzgruppe D?
A Yes, that is right. I said that in the first days of October I received the decree from Berlin.
Q Now let's consider, in connection with your statement, your service record which is in document book 3-D, that same book, and. which is on page 64 of the English, 106 of the German and is document NO-3249, prosecution's exhibit 166. Now, on page 67, your Honors, and on page 111 of the German, almost at the bottom of the page it says in this service record, from September 1941 until July 1942 he was assigned to Einsatzgruppe D and was a Kommandofuehrer. Now, your service record then is at variance with your statement, or what I would like to know now, which is the correct statement of fact; that you were a Kommandofuehrer from November of '41 or from September of '41 as stated in your service record? tion. It says here from September '41 until July '42. The author of this promotion, recommendation by promotion, had decrees in his files like this. My actual order to go into the assignment and my recall from the assignment are shown here. It is quite possible and it is nothing exceptional that the order into the assignment was given at the end of September. I can only assure you again that on 18 October I left Berlin. I believe my document book, Mr. Prosecutor, will contain the original document according to which, on 17 October in Berlin, I was given the order to move, and the trip ticket was given to my driver and myself so I could not have left before the 18th. I also explained that I was in Nikolajew first and that at the beginning of November I went to Odessa and exactly on 10 November was put in charge of the Kommando. This will become obvious and clear when I add that I certainly have no reason to extend my assignment six weeks longer. I said that at the end of August I handed over a Kommando and returned at the end of October.
It says in these files here, July '42. It can be shown but there is a difference between the document and the actually starting service which is six weeks, but this time also exists when I finished with my assignment.
Q All right. On your service record which we are considering in connection with your statement on page 66 of the English in document book 3_D, and on page 109 of the German, it shows that in 1939 on the 20th of April you were promoted to SS_Sturmbannfuehrer. Is that correct? over two years since you had had a promotion, even in wartime; is that not correct? that you would never be promoted further unless you had had foreign service with troops, did you not? the troops abroad, foreign service? No, I cannot confirm this as an exclusive fact. I am sure that a great number of promotions were made although the individuals had not been assigned. little slow? You testified that you had done your duty as best you could, and here it is over two years in wartime and you were not promoted. For that reason were you not willing to take service in Russia or any foreign service to see if it wouldn't speed up your promotion?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it is an error if you presume that holding the rank which I had and my age, I should have been promoted every year. There were very few exceptions, but I believe those were exceptional people. I did not consider my promotion to Obersturmbannfuehrer after four or five years between being a Sturnbannfuehrer and an Obersturm bannfuehrer was nothing exceptional, and I can only assure you that at the time when I was sent to the assignment I really did not think of promotion.
were you not, at the time of your assignment to Russian territory? and I knew my tasks as chief of a state police office when I joined the assignment, yes. Einsatzgruppe unless you had been familiar with the SD and Gestapo matters or in either of these spheres of activity?
A Mr. Prosecutor, this is a hypothetical question. What might have happened to a person in the war, I really cannot say now. I don't know whether fate would have given me such a task if I had not belonged to the State Police at the time.
Q It's been repeatedly testified here that certain members of Einsatzgruppes attempted to get out and join the Wehrmacht. Now, I ask you essentially the sane question. Do you believe that you would have been assigned to an Einsatzgruppe unless you had been familiar with the tasks of the State Police or the Gestapo and the SD?
A Mr. Prosecutor, you refer to my Army service I must tell you unfortunately that my state of health was such that I could not have become a soldier. I was examined repeatedly and every time I was found not suitable for military service. May I explain it in one sentence? I have two serious defects in the shoulder joints. rendered a Kommandofuehrer and a comparable rank in the Wehrmacht. You had plenty of hard work to do while you were in Russia, did you not?
A I don't know what you consider hard work. Mr. Prosecutor. In any case with my state of health I was able to carry out this task, but to give an example, I could not throw hand grenades or overcome obstacles because my shoulder joints easily became dislocated.
Major, was it not? one could compare it to a Major. they?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether you have been a soldier, but I believe that the war would have been quite different to what you imagine it.
Q When and where did you first learn of the Fuehrer order?
A I explained this in detail here already, Mr. Prosecutor. and it wasmy task to gather information about my task. humanitarian reasons, but that you considered it your duty to carry out the order as it was an order of your supreme commander; is that correct? other possibility in the situation in which I was. General Ohlendorf to release you from your assignment as you were sure that he would have refused you? not do it. assignment with an Einsatzgruppe; is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, please tell me what I should have done. I don't know what I should have done. ever did anything to be relieved from the assignment that forced you to carry out an order of which you disapproved?
Fuehrer order? what force would have been used if I had disobeyed it.
Q That's not what I asked you. I asked you what force was used in order to get you to carry it out? was there any force used?
A I said that the refusal to obey would have meant my end. I I believe it has been said very often during this trial. any force. You didn't try to get away from it. The order was given to you and you carried it out and you communicated to no one your reluctance and your revulsion to carry out this order. You only acted because you were convinced that you had to obey orders issued by your supreme commander; is that correct?
A These are several questions you mention now, Mr. Prosecutor, about the first question I can only say that there is a very effective power which can be used not in a physical sense. I don't know what should threaten a person more than the fact that he can lose his life. On the second point I can only say that an assumption by you. I believe, there is no doubt what my attitude was to the order and how difficult it was for no to carry it out. by Hitler were not aimed to the extermination of the Jews as a race, but were security measures which were necessary as the Jews were the most active and powerful part of the Communists; have you not? or a number of persons are killed for security reasons or racial inferiority reasons?
the front as a soldier, they give me theorder to shoot somebody because it is essential for the war, or whether one tells no without any reasons that people are to be killed arbitrarily. for the purpose of preventing acts which they eventually would carry out in the future, be less criminal than the killing of the same person for reasons that they were members of an inferior race?
A I did not quite understand the question, Mr. Prosecutor. May I have it again?
Q Yes. Would not the killing of people for security reasons, that is, for the purpose of preventing acts which they would carry out eventually in the future, be less criminal than the killing of the same persons for the reasons that they were members of an inferior race?
A Mr. Prosecutor, durin this war millions of people were killed and one cannot say that they constituted an immediate danger. They were killed at the order of the supreme commanders of the state or the supreme war commanders, and I already said that I do not assume the right to judge this as being criminal. of crimes?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I can only reply again they were not guilty of any crimes any more than hundreds of thousands of German women and children who were killed by bombs. They were just as guilty and just as innocent. In both cases I start from the assumption that the responsible men gave these orders because they considered it necessary in order to attain their end for the war. your Kommando without their casesbeing investigated as to whether they had committed any acts against the German Reich or not?