ADuring the war in the occupied territories I never thought about it. In particular as I found everything In that condition, I was not a lawyer, and it was my opinion that all those things had been organized in such a manner as they should be in order to insure proper procedure. My predecessor who had organized this and instituted it was a trained lawyer, and also expressed himself to me to the effect that everything was proper. I had to rely on that.
QNow were the executions carried out, when they were carried out?
AIn the Einsatzkommando VI, I heard of two kinds of executions, one by shooting, and another manner of execution, in particular by the office in Rostov, by means of gas vans. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWitness, you say you heard of. Didn't you know as a matter of personal knowledge?
AYes. I shall talk about that presently. I only made a general statement that two kinds of executions existed, and I will now give details about these. The shooting was done in a military manner by single shots, by a machine rifle or by a rifle. In Rostov itself they used the gas van. In order to be Informed about this, I had the action of the gas van described to me on the occasion of an execution, and I asked the chief of the detachment in Rostov to show it to me. This seemed to me a procedure which tried to conduct the execution in a manner which made it easier for both, the victim and the executioner. Like the electric chair, the procedure has been invented for humanitarian reasons. I know that in a few states of the United States of America already many years ago executions through gas had been carried out.
QWitness, did you say that the method of execution by gas van was easier on the victim and easier on the executionor, is that what I understood you to say?
AYes, it is more pleasant or easier for both parties.
QMore pleasant for both parties?
AYes.
QThe victim and the executioner?
AIt is easier for both parts.
QThat is that?
AIt is easier for both parts.
QDid you hear Mr. Ohlendorf describe that men of the kommando objected to the use of gas vans because of the impression it made upon them?
AI heard that, but I could not understand that, because my experiences had been to the contrary.
Q well, your view is then that the method of asphyxiation is less difficult?
AIt is not so difficult by means of gas? No. I can say that I saw the bodies, all of whom made a very calm and peaceful impression. I also know that, through carbon dioxide, people who are in a closed garage and work on a car where the motor is running, without noticing it, are suddenly surprised by death. I was of the impression that death in that manner approaches the person in a very gentle manner.
QWell, to that extent then, you do not agree with Ohlendorf's observations. You have a disagreement on that?
AYes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. BY DR. BERGOLD:
QWitness, did you order the manner of execution?
ANo, as I already said, I found these methods and accepted them and thought everything was all right.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, did you order the execution yourself?
THE WITNESS:No.
THE PRESIDENT:Who did order the execution?
THE WITNESS:Those were the subkommando leaders: Q (By Dr. Bergold) What impression did the activity of Einsatzkommando VI have on you, which you described?
AAccording to my theological development I not only thought it highly unpleasant but I thought I could not be expected to do this, that under my charge death sentences were passed and expected to be carried out.
After all,I was not brought up for that kind of task. A pastor has the task to help souls but never to judge. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QDid you ever order an execution?
ANo.
QDid you witness an execution?
AYes, as I just said, in the gas wagon.
ADid you, as a pastor, conduct any religious ceremony prior to the execution?
AI could not do that, your Honor.
QWell, I am asking you if you did or not. Did you?
ANo.
ADid you try to comfort any of the victims religiously before the execution?
AI never saw the persons and didn't talk to them.
QYou didn't see the executees?
AYes, if I witnessed the execution I did. Otherwise I did not.
QWell, when you were present at an execution, did you attempt to comfort those who were executed; did you talk to them along religious lines since you were trained to do a function of that kind?
ANo, that was not my task.
QWell, didn't you, out of the bigness of your heart, out of your religious training and inclination, feel disposed to comfort these individuals who were now to take that long last walk into eternity?
AYour Honor, it would have made a strange impression if I, as representative of the komnando who passed judgment and who carried out the sentence, at the same time approached the people with religious consolation.
I think the people would never have understood that. One could hardly do this at the sane time. The serious necessity of war, and then one tries to console people, in my opinion this is tasteless.
QYou were afraid you might be criticised if you said a word or two of comfort to these individuals on the verge of coming before their supreme Creator. You thought you might be criticised if you did that?
AWell, your Honor, I would have to describe how this was done, when an execution was carried out by a gas van. I have only described my impression so far.
QI perhaps didn't make my question very clear. I said that had you offered a word of solace and comfort to these individuals who in a few moments would be standing before their Supreme Creator, had you done that, you feared that you would be criticised for having done this?
AYes, from that point of view one could say they did not know who I was. They did not know I was a clergyman. hey didn't know that, and possibly they would have considered this irony if I, as a representative of the kommando, would have said such words then.
QDid you ever think -- Do you think it is bad taste at any time to talk about God?
ANo, your Honor.
QWell now, here is a man who is going to be shot; he is going to be killed.
AYes.
QHe is going to pass out of existence. You are the pastor, or were a pastor. You are religiously trained. It didn't occur to you to say a word to this individual that was starting on this long journey?
It didn't occur to you to do that?
AI had no, opportunity to do this. If I describe this to you you may understand it, Your Honor.
QWell now, I am giving you a chance to describe it. You were the kommando leader. Why didn't you have the opportunity to talk to these individuals, just give them a word or two of comfort? Why didn't you have that opportunity?
AI could have got that opportunity any time, yes.
QYes, well, why didn't you do it?
AYour Honor, if somebody had come to me I would not have rejected him, but to force myself on somebody, that is not my way.
QWell, would you be forcing yourself on an individual who is about to be executed, to tell him that he would soon be standing before his God, and to have strength in this final moment? Would it have been so difficult to do that?
AYour Honor, I had to deal with people who, owing to Bolshevist views, had fought against the German troops illegally. It is known that the Bolshevist ideology advocate the movement of the Atheists. There is a word which sounds very harsh, in particular if I say it in this connection. This word is, "One should not throw pearls before swine". I say that is a parable. When using the word of God one should not use it in situations where it does not fit in, in particular if one is innerly convinced that the ground is not prepared for such a message. If I had gained the conviction that in these people there would have been a longing for God, if 1 had heard this somehow from some men who had to do with them -
QDid you think that because they were Bolshevists and had been fighting Germany that they did not have souls?
ANo.
QYou did believe they had souls then, didn't you?
AOf course.
QBut because they were of the attitude which you have expressed, you did not think it was worthwhile to try to save those souls?
AI had to assume that these were Atheists, There are people who do not believe in God, who have turned away from God, and if I tell such a man a word of God, I run the danger that the person will become ironic.
QWell, suppose he did become ironic, that could not be any worse than the fact that he was going to be killed rather soon, Suppose he did become ironic, how did that harm anyone?
AThese things are too sacred to me that I would risk them in such situations.
QYou were a pastor, and wasn't it your duty to try to convert these lost souls?
AYour Honor, I am a religious man, and I have a great lot of tolerance. I do not think it is my duty to convert people. It is my duty to help men if they approach me with wishes and questions, but I always have to know whether the person has an open mind for these things. I do not go to any Atheist and tell him, "You must believe in God", but if he comes to me and says, "I cannot believe in God, what might be the reason, can you help me?" I then would, of course.
QDid you ask each and everyone of these persons about to be executed whether he believed in God?
ANo.
QThen, how did you know that he didn't believe in God?
AI already said that they were people who believed in the Bolshevist ideology who stubbornly followed the orders of their Communist leaders, and therefore attacked us. Their acts were not honest acts, but crimes, of which they themselves were convinced, and about which they knew that death sentence was the punishment for it, and after all, they were unusual cases. Apart from that I don't know whether the people who believed in orthodox religion in Russia shared my opinion, which after all arose from a German heart, whether they could understand it in that form.
THE PRESIDENT:Then because they had committed a crime, you believed they were not worthy of absolution, or of a word of comfort?
THE WITNESS:No, Your Honor, not like that, but -
THE PRESIDENT:Just a minute, let's truncate this discussion. Did you or did you not, being a man of God, and having been a Pastor, and having devoted much of your life to studying religion, and to preaching religion, did you at any time in any of these executions after any religious comfort to any of the executees. Now answer that question yes or no?
THEWITNESS? No.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. Now yesterday you told us that you had established a new religion, and one of the tenets of that new religion was "Love of fellowmen"?
THE WITNESS:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Do you think that you demonstrated that "Love of fellowmen" by letting these people go to their deaths without a word of comfort along religious lines, considering that you were a Pastor? Did you demonstrate there a "Love of fellowmen"? Answer that question yes or no?
THE WITNESS:I didn't sin against the Commandment of Love, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, if I may intervene in this long discussion and say: Your Honor, the victims did not know that this man was a Pastor, seeing he was wearing an SS or SD uniform, that, therefore, he was an exponent of that authority who condemned them to death and I really believe the defendant that the executees would have considered it strange and would have considered it foul and unworthy if such a man had suddenly come to them, who was the chief of such a commando, and tried to console them In a religious manner. They didn't even know he was a clergyman. I must say I cannot quite understand the discussion because one is to imagine oneself back into that time and imagine the appearance of this man as he approached victims.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, ordinarily, a discussion of this kind would be entirely irrelevant, but yesterday when we tried to confine the issue to the charges in the Indictment, you said we had to allow your client to give his full discussion on religion, because only in that way could we decide whether he was telling the truth, or not.
Now because of these circumstances it is entirely in order to ascertain whether a man with the religious training, with the religious background, in a situation so solumn as an execution, could not have advanced towards the executees, those about to be killed, and say to them, "You see me in uniform of the SS, but I am a man of God. I was a Pastor", and then to comfort them in any way that he could. How, he said he didn't do that. All right, that ends the discussion, let's proceed.
DR. BERGOLD:I have one more question to put to the defendant. BY DR. BBRGOLD:
QTell me, can you speak Russian?
ANo.
QHow could you have talked to these victims about religion?
AOnly through an interpreter.
QWas an interpreter present during the execution?
ANo.
DR. BERGOLD:Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT:Was an interpreter present when the men were investigated for the purpose of determining whether they were guilty or not?
AYes, of course, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes. You could have taken -
A -- That was their job.
THE PRESIDENT:You could have taken an interpreter to the execution if you desired, could you not?
AI could have done that.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, but you did not?
ANo.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. BY DR. BERGOLD: How many executions did you witness?
ATwo.
QWhich territory was under the charge of Einsatzcommando VI?
AIt was a territory about two-hundred kilometers wide, and about three-hundred kilometers long, that is, about 60,000 square kilometers.
QWhen did the meeting which was announced take place where you saw Thomas again?
AThe meeting took place at the beginning of October 1942 in Kiev.
QWhat was the subject, the main subject of this meeting?
AThe subject of this meeting was guerrilla fighting in the territory around Kiev, which had become the most important part in the war against Russia, and the entire interest of Thomas was concentrated on this subject.
QWhat was the result of the second discussion with Thomas?
AMy second discussion with Dr. Thomas during the meeting was only brief. I described him my impression as I have described it before, that is, I told him what I had seen there, and told him that owi owing to my theological training, I could not have been expected to have to pass judgments and to have executions under my change. At the same time I explained to him that I was now convinced and determined, as I had already told him before, to apply immediately to be released from my duties, not only from Russia but also from the Security Police all together. Dr. Thomas listen to all of this very calmly and without a word of criticism he said that he would support my application, and that he would send a Sturmbannfuehrer to me who was to share the responsibility for the Einsatzcommando VI with me, and that he was to supervise the work of Department IV while I who had the same function for the Departments I to III, I was in charge of the entire Einsatzcommando, and from that I realized that he fully recognized my personal misgivings and I was very grateful to him for understanding me so well.
QPlease describe to us the tasks of Departments I to IV?
AThe tasks of the individual departments were as fellows: Department I and II were joined in Russia, and, handled personnel and administrative questions; Department III was the information service dealing with the domestic spheres in the occupied, territory in which the Einsatzcommando was working; and, Department IV dealt with actual security tasks.
QThen I understand you correctly if I summarize your previous statement that the decision of Dr. Thomas to send you a Sturmbahnfuehrer to help you, the purposes of this was to have this man handle the security tasks?
AYes. Dr. Thomas intended to save me from actually touching these subjects.
QPlease tell me if Dr. Thomas was so obliging, could you have got a better job from him, which you would have liked better, which would have suited, you better?
AUnfortunately, this could not be done, because Berlin had appointed no Chief of Einsatzcommando VI. This order could not be rescinded by Thomas or amended but this could only be done by Berlin. Bridging the tension, as Thomas did by giving me a Sturmbannfuehrer to assist me, seemed to me the only solution, owing to difficulties in my special position.
QWhen did you return to Rostov from Kiev?
AImmediately after the meeting on 11 October 1942.
QDid you travel back to Rostov on your own - by yourself?
A no, during this journey I was accompanied by the man in charge of the Civil Administration in Rostov, who was an SS and Police Leader, a general of the police who had been intended for that job, Paul Hennicke. He was about to make all the preparations for taking over his office, and, later on I met him quite frequently.
In fact, I spent a great deal of my time with him.
DR. BERGOLD:If the Tribunal will permit me to comment here; I wanted to bring this man. Paul Heinnecke, here as a witness, but unfortunately he was so seriously ill with diabetics that the prison administration told me that they could not guarantee for his life unless I released him immediately. Of course, for humane reasons I released the witness immediately, or else I would have introduced the witness here. That is just comment.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, he can come later if you can obtain him. We will permit him to come in any time at all before the termination of the trial, and, then if his health still will not permit his attendance, then perhaps you can obtain an affidavit from him.
DR. BERGOLD:I have tried that already, but he was just before his coma, and you know people who suffer from diabetics are not able to make a very clear statement, and I don't went to give the Tribunal a statement of a man of whom I did not have the impression that his mind was quite clear.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, you adjust yourself according to the circumstances, and if you can get any coherent statement from him, the Tribunal will be very happy to have it.
DR. BERGOLD:Very well. BY DR. BERGOLD:
QWitness, this Sturmbannfuehrer you told us about, when did he come to you?
AAt the end of October this Sturmbannfuehrer arrived. His name was Joachim Noshing. He was a lawyer, and his main job was SSleader, and until then he had been a deputy commander in Kiev. Apart from that he was a son of a Protestant eclesiastical counsel, had been brought up in a strict Protestant manner, and very interested in religion, these were conditions which assured that work would be conducted in a proper and clean manner.
QWitness, please tell me how your commando was set up, and how the channels of commands were?
AAs I have already said, the Einsatzcommando VI consisted of a staff, and four staff sub-commanders and four district officess, similar to the commander offices, namely, Rostov, Taganrog, Novotscherkaskh, and Schafhty. The staff consisted of the commandoleader, and the deputy, under them were the Chiefs I and II, Chief III an and Chief IV. The sub-division in the commando-leadership resulted in the fact that the Chiefs I and II and III were subordinate to me, and Nehring was in charge of Department IV. The sub-commandos or local offices were supervised by police officers who were Ober- or Hauptsturmfuehrer, and who did this on their authority. That is, they carried out the tasks of the commandos concerning the security of the Army territory for their sub-territory, and they were competent on their own to do this, and they were responsible for this themselves, concerning the passing of judgments, investigations and carrying out of executions. There is to be mentioned that the subcommando leader of Rost v and Chief IV in the staff was the same man. In this activity the sub-commando leaders were directed in an expert manner by the Chiefs I and II, III and IV, and supervised by me or Nehring.
QDid you pass death sentences yourself?
AI never did that, I already said that I explained to Dr. Thomas that they could not expect me to do this kind, of thing; apart from that it was the task of the sub-commando leaders. In cases of doubt, it was up to Chief IV of the staff or of my deputy, Nehring, according to special instructions of Thomas.
THE PRESIDENT:Witness, up to the point that you said that you didn't want to pass any death sentence yourself, because of your background and training we can understand it, but when you say that it was now up to a commando leader to pass a death sentence, we can not understand, it. Now, tell us whether commando leaders were permitted to pass death sentences?
AWell, I said principally the sub-commando leader did it.
THE PRESIDENT:Now, just a moment please. If you will try to answer the question, we will save a great deal of tine. I ask you now, if commando-leaders were authorized to pass death sentences?
AYes. BY DR. BERGOLD:
QWitness, we already discussed the fact that you don't give any order for an execution?
ANo. And I didn't witness any executions.
QDid your commando shoot any hostages?
TEE PRESIDENT:Just a moment, Dr. Bergold. A little while ago you said that he didn't witness any executions,
DR. BERGOLD:I didn't say that.
THE PRESIDENT:I am sorry, that is what we got - that is the way we got it. BY DR. BERGOLD:
APerhaps I talked too fast.
QWitness, were hostages shot by your commando as reprisals for any reason?
ANo, no hostages were shot by Einsatzcommando VI. Taking of hostages was generally up to the Army.
QDid your commando carry out any mass-executions without a procedure?
AWithout a procedure, during my time in Einsatzcommando VI, neither individual shootings nor mass executions were carried out.
QDid your commando shoot Jews?
AIt is possible that among the people who were convicted by a legal procedure because of crimes, or participation in crimes according to a special order by the Army, who had done some kind of action for which death sentence had been announced, among those persons there night have been Jews sometimes. Apart from that no Jews were shot specifically.
QYou never did this just because they were Jews?
ANo.
QWhy -
THE PRESIDENT:Now, witness, you say that no Jew was shot just because he was a Jew, or that Einsatzcommando VI didn't do that?
THE WITNESS:Never during my time.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes.
THE WITNESS:There was no reason for that.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, how many people in all were executed by your Commando for the reasons which you have given us, namely, they had committed a crime. How many executions in all, how many people in all were killed by Einsatzcomnando VI while you were there?
THE BERGOLD:Your Honor, before the defendant speaks I have a request. This question, how many people he executed....
THE PRESIDENT:No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that, I said, how many people were executed by his commando while he was in charge of that commando.
DR. BERGOLD:That is what I meant to say, Your Honor. I have a request that this particular question, which the President asked, may be answered in a different context; it is connected with his own affidavit where he refers to this figure, and, I, therefore, ask that the question of the President be not asked in this connection, but be answered later on in a different context, for which I would be very grateful.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well, certainly. BY DR. BERGOLD:
QWitness, in your territory were there any Jews at all?
AI never noticed any Jews. In Rostov there were a great number of Armenians whom I thought to be Jews at first. When I happened to see one in my office one day, I thought he was a Jew, this person told me in German, and I was very much surprised at this, he told me that he was not a Jew, but a Karain.
He was at the office in order to hand in a report about the Karains. He showed me a written report, about his tribe. I asked him to give me this leaflet he had, and after that he made a report to Berlin about the Karains in Russia. The man himself, of course, was not harmed. Then I remember that at the end of May, or the beginning of June, 1943, at the office in Taganrog I happened to hear something about the fact that Jews lived in Taganrog who were only registered, and according to this, if I think about it now, Jews might have been in that territory then, and that the circumstances didn't become obvious to me at the time, or I didn't notice it, must be owing to the fact that I had no reason at the time for this observation.
DR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I now come to a different complex of questions, and I would like to ask if the Tribunal would like to have a recess now.
THE PRESIDENT:A good idea to have a recess now. The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. BERGOLD:
QWitness, before the recess you told the Tribunal that you only heard about the Fuehrer Order to kill Jews here in this trial. If you had known it in Russia at the time, would you have approved of it at all?
AOnly from my own basic philosophy of life I can answer this question. No, I would not have approved of it and I cannot approve of it today in any form, since it does not only violate morality, but also an obviously divine law, just as the bombardment of Large cities by large fleets of airplanes or by atom bombs is disapproved by me as immoral and undivine.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWitness, did you disapprove of the bombardment of London when it took place?
ANo, may I say why?
QNo, that's enough. You said you disapprove of the bombardment of cities but you did not disapprove of the bombardment of London. All right, that is your opinion.
AYour Honor, to give the full truth, I must be able to explain why, why I once approved it and once disapproved of it.
QDid you approve of it or not?
AYes, because it attacked military goals, as far as I was informed.
QThen you do approve of the bombardment of cities in war?
AI said that I spoke of large cities with large fleets of airplanes and I meant by this the bombardment of certain areas of a city and blanketing it with bombs, not the attack of military objectives or armament factories.
QYou said you did not approve of the bombardment of cities. Did you say that or did you not?
ABy large masses of airplanes, yes.
QAll right, then, I ask you did you approve of the bombardment of London?
AYes, since this was attacking military objectives, as it was told to us expressly.
QYou said that you disapproved of the bombardment of large cities with large fleets of planes. Now London is certainly a large city and it certainly was bombed by large fleets of planes. Now, do you approve of that or not?
AI only heard that military objectives in London were attacked.
QDo you know that St. Paul's Cathedral was damaged in one of those raids?
ANo, I do not know this.
QYou never heard of that?
ANo, I don't recall.
QVery well.
AI am thinking above all of events in Hamburg and Dresden, which I remember.
DRIECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. BERGOLD:
QWitness, if you had received the order for killing, would you have carried it out or not?
AOf course, these are all hypothetical matters, but I will answer it and I say, if my predecessor had given the order to me for my information, I would not have accepted it. As far as such an oral information was concerned, I would have never had people executed on such an oral passing on of an order. At least, this order would have had to be given to me expressly as an order by my superior, but even then I would not have carried it out. I would have pointed to my spiritual profession and thus I would have asked that no such order be given to me.
QBut you took an oath to carry out all orders.
AThat is correct. I was obligated to obey by oath, but obedience has a limit for no at that moment, when the order so obviously violates the will of God, as this killing order does. Thus, I was not obligated to obey all orders without any consideration. There are moments in our life, when, for a human being who really believes in God and who really knows that he is tied to God, the obedience towards the will of God is higher than obedience to an anti-divine order.
QWould you have had difficulties if you had not followed the order? What would you have done about these difficulties?