Q And for what reason?
A Because I had slammed the reputation of the Gestapo in a very strong manner.
Q Will you repeat that, please?
A I damaged the reputation of the Gestapo in a very considerable manner.
Q And were you also attempting to help Jews obtain their release from concentration camps?
A Yes, during this period, that is in 1938 and 1939, I succeeded in having 71 Jews and non-Jews released from concentration camps because I paid money to the Gestapo officials. That was from the concentration camps of Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen that I got the release of these Jews.
Q Did that have anything to do with your arrest?
A Yes, it was just that I was arrested because of that.
Q Were you given a trial?
A Yes, I was brought to the Special Court at Frankfurt.
Q And what happened there?
A In October 1940, during the proceedings before the Special Court at Frankfurt I was acquitted.
Q Then what was done with you?
A Then I was not released from custody and I was transferred to the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen at Oranienburg.
Q You were tried and acquitted by the Special Court at Frankfurt and then sent to Sachsenhausen, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q What was the date of your being sent to Sachsen hausen?
AAs far as I remember I was brought on the 3rd of February, 1941, to the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen.
Q About how many inmates were in Sachsenhausen?
AAccording to my estimate the figure of the inmates at that time was twelve to fifteen thousand.
Q What kind of work were you doing in Sachsenhausen in the years '41 and '42?
A Consequently I was first a worker in the brick works and then in the earth and then I was constructing houses in the DAW and then I was a clerk in the DAW and shortly later I was for a short time legal advisor of the inmates in the Clerk Department of Sachsenhausen.
Q Can you give us some idea of the working conditions that prevailed in the Dest industries during 1941 and 1942 when you were there?
A The working and living conditions during the years 1941 and 1942 were in the camps of Sachsenhausen very bad.
Q Was beating a frequent occurrence?
A The inmates were beaten by the SS guards and by the Capos, that is, the foremen. They were beaten by them and mistreated.
Q And did you usually have to work double time?
A Well, the working hours, as far as I remember, at that time were 12 hours and there was one hour for the noon recess.
Q And did you have to work at a fast tempo?
AAt that time they still worked at the regulation that we had to work double time.
Q Do you know, from your own knowledge, whether workers were worked to death and beaten to death?
A I have seen these in the Klinker Works at Oranienburg, I have seen the inmates by the SS and also by the Capos were beaten and were treated in such a manner that they either died right away or they died after they were sent to the concentration camp hospital.
Q Was the food which was given these workers in the Dest industries sufficient?
A Food, if you consider this happy word, was not sufficient.
Q Did you see the workers become sick and die from undernourishment and overwork?
A I have seen that especially tall and strong men who usually need more food than others, that is small men, that these men very quickly reached a physical condition which made it necessary that they be sent to the concentration camp hospital and a part of them died and that was concerned mainly with the water, because the food, the prison food which was given there was mainly soup; there was a lack of food and water, was formed, if I may call it that as a layman, and the main part of the inmates died because of that reason.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Did you see workers eating grass for food?
A Yes, the inmates went to get beets from the field without permission. They ate raw potatoes. They ate whatever they could lay their hands on in the way of food, whatever looked like food.
Q Was the work carried on out of do**s, winter and summer as well?
A Yes, the work was mainly done in the open air aside from the brick works and the workshops. There we had to work in the halls.
Q Was the clothing for the workers sufficient?
A No, it was not sufficient because there was only one suit put at their disposal; and if, for instance, it rained and the clothing became wet, then on the next morning you had to get into this wet clothing.
Q Then at the beginning of 1943 were you assigned to work in a ceramic factory in Sachsenhausen?
A Yes, I worked in a ceramic workshop inside the camp.
Q What kind of work was carried out there?
A There we used clay to produce ceramic products, for instance, plates and cups.
Q For whom were these plates and cups produced?
A They were to be produced for members of the SS.
Q Did you ever see Oswald Pohl at this workshop?
A During my activity at that time Oswald Pohl, then Obergruppenfuehrer, visited the ceramic workshops once.
Q Will you describe that visit?
A Yes. The Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, at that time Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, only came in to our workshop, looked at the ceramic cups, and asked what the people there were doing. Since the Hauptsharfuehrer who was my boss was not present at the workshop, I therefore explained to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl the production.
Q Do you know whether Pohl received objects from this workshop?
A I couldn't tell you that.
Q How long were you working in the ceramic works?
A I think that I can remember that it was five or six months.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Then what did you do?
A Then I fell ill and was sent to the hospital. When I was released from the hospital, I became legal adviser for the inmates.
Q Legal adviser for the inmates?
A Yes, legal adviser for the inmates.
Q Of what kind of work did that consist?
A I dealt with the trial matters of civilian character for the inmates, that is, the lawsuits. It was complained from the outside that they didn't comply with their obligations in questions of divorce and so on.
Q Had there been any legal adviser for the inmates in Sachsenhausen before?
A No, not before.
Q For how long a period did you hold that position?
A I held this position only for about three weeks.
Q What happened to you?
A In the exercise of these activities of mine, I reported to the first chief of camp concerning the very bad conditions in the hospital at the concentration camp Sachsenhausen.
Q You reported that to whom?
A To the commanding chief of the camp. He was Sturmbannfuehrer Gruenewald.
Q What did you say in your report?
A In this report I showed the conditions as they had been explained to me by the inmates; and I passed on the description which had been given me by the inmates.
Q What were those conditions? Can you give us some idea?
A Well, I could only say that at that time I was of the opinion, having reaching this conclusion from the testimony of the inmates, that the death of many inmates was the result of the wrong treatment of many of them by the camp doctors and by the inmates who were either inmate doctors or nurses, male nurses.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Can you give us some idea of the rate of deaths in Sachsenhausen at that time?
A If I remember correctly, at that time at Sachsenhausen we had an average of eight to nine hundred deaths per month.
Q From what did those deaths result, Doctor?
A I have already told you that it was the result of the heavy work, which was not at all proportionate to the food they got; and it was also the result of the diseases which were prevalent because of the poor food situation.
Q Were the main work details in Sachsenhausen carried out in the DEST industries at that time, in the Deutsche Erd und Steinwerke?
A Who did this work, did you ask?
Q I am asking if the principal work details in Sachsenhausen were carried out in the DEST industries at the time you made your report.
A Well, the work details for the Klinker Works or, better, in the brick works of Oranienburg were sent out by the main camp because at that time the so-called Klinker Camp didn't yet exist. That means a working detail was sent out. If I remember well, it consisted of about 1500 to 2000 male inmates.
Q As a result of the report which you made on the conditions in Sachsenhausen, what happened to you?
A I was sent down to the dark cell, to the bunker; and there I was interrogated. I was interrogated by the camp commander and by the SS doctors, who were represented by the first and second camp doctor, Sturmbannfuehrer Gruenewald, and also by a tribunal officer who had the rank of an SS Untersturmfuehrer.
Q You were given a trial in the concentration camp?
A No, that was what they called an "S" proceedings.
Q What were the charges brought against you?
A I was said to have presented the conditions in a manner which did not correspond to the truth.
Q What was your sentence as a result of the trial?
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
AAfter the tribunal officer had tried to intimidate me, telling me that I should take my testimony which had been handed over to the Sturmbannfuehrer and destroy this testimony and that I should declare that it had not corresponded to the truth and wasn't true or that at least I had made an error, then during these proceedings I also refused to modify my statement and refused to destroy my testimony.
Q Were you beaten?
A I was only beaten by members of the SS who had brought me to the bunker.
Q Were you then sentenced to work in the Klinker Works at Oranienburg?
AAfter I had refused the order by the tribunal and had rejected the competence of the tribunal because defendants had been judges in this tribunal, I was then sentenced to concentration camp for life and sentenced to be brought in to the Klinker Punitive Company.
Q Was this Klinker Punitive Company under the Deutsche Erd und Steinwerke Industrie?
A The Klinker Punitive Company was a detachment inside the camp. It was not under the orders of the DEST but under the orders of the camp commander.
Q This was called the Klinker SK, was it?
A Yes, it was called Klinker SK. That is the abbreviation of Klinker Punitive Company, Klinker Strap Companie.
Q Would you say that this was not under Amtsgruppe I of the WVHA?
A No, that was not under the Amtsgruppe I. This punitive company was under the orders of the camp commander.
Q About what was the death rate in this punitive company?
AAt that time the death rate was very high. The living and working conditions inside the punitive company were, I may well say, very, very bad.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Can you give us some idea how many people died?
A There were many deaths occurred insofar as they wanted to be changed during work, and they were shot by the SS Guards when they went through the guards.
Q What kind of work was carried out here?
A Only stone work was done. In other words, transfer of stones and unloading of stones.
Q How long were you in this Punitive Company?
A I remained in this Punitive Company for about four months.
Q Then to where were you transferred?
A I was withdrawn from the Punitive Company because of my bad physical condition, and I was relieved, and then I was again detailed to a Mason Company. There I was to work as a mason in the tunnel works, and I had to repair furnaces of which there were twenty-four in the camp.
Q Was this under the Dest Industry?
A The Dest Work Company, that was a working company to the Dest.
Q What was the operation of the Dest Company at Sachsenhausen and at Oranienburg in 1943 and 1944, Doctor?
A I do not quite understand. What kind of work?
Q Yes, what was the extent of the Dest Industries operations in Sachsenhausen?
A Well, the operations were of bricks that were produced, then, and furthermore, in and around Oranienburg there was a works to work on the stones which went into Department 0-2, and for which stones were prepared in order to be used for soldiers halls, which were to be erected at Berlin after the war. That was the preparing of stones from Swedish granite.
Q You have already described the working conditions that prevailed during 1941 and 1942 at the Dest Plants. Can you say whether or not those conditions continued to prevail throughout 1943 and to the end of the war in the Dest Industries?
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
A Well, a difference has to be made between the years until the beginning of 1943. Until that time the treatment was worse than in the year of '43, and to the end, and the reasons were that at that time the SS Guards had been changed, and other guards had been sent who had been detailed by the Army, by the Air Force, and by the Navy, and these guards were mainly of the elder people who did not mistreat the inmates in such manner as to reach the degree to such an extent as the SS guards had before done. The SS guards had been there until 1943.
Q Can you say from your own knowledge that up until the end of the war people or workers were worked to death, died from undernourishment, and overwork?
A In the year of 1943, as I already said, until 1945 the treatment of the inmates was not the same any more, and the exercising in the worse way by beating to death, or by shooting, and also in general by mistreating of any kind were not existing to such an extent any more.
Q After you were transferred out of the brick works in the Dest in 1943, where did you go?
A I already said that then after I had been a furnace mason for some time, I then went under the service of the camp elder, who was a friend of mine in Frankfurt. I was then transferred to the legal department of the Dest, which at that time was in the administrative barracks at Oranienburg, or one of the administrative barracks, and I was transferred there, that is, detailed there.
Q What kind of work did you do in the legal department of the Dest?
A I drafted contracts. I dealt with correspondence. I dictated mail, and also I did work which normally would have been done by the legal adviser of the combine.
Q What correspondence did you have an opportunity to see while you were there, what kind of correspondence?
A Well, there was mail which dealt with the different work of the Dest, and which went to the WVHA with the Staff-B.
Q During this time did you have an opportunity to see the defend Court No. II, Case No. IV.
ant Mummenthey?
A I saw the defendant Mummenthey during that period.
Q And how often did you see Mummenthey?
A I saw him often. I saw him when, for instance, I got orders from the Stone Processing Works, where later on the legal department of the Dest was located, or if I brought mail over from that department to the administrative barracks of the main brick works, which already Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey had the supervision as first chief of Staff B-1.
Q Did you see him once a week or once a month?
A I may have seen him twice or three times per month. Once I saw him, that is, in the Stone Processing Works while he inspected the legal department there, and then I visited him once when there had been a complaint about me by the SS.
Q Of what did this complaint concern?
A I was said to have been impertinent to the legal reporter, Dr. Schneider.
Q Where was Mummenthey's office in relation to the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen?
A The then Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey was chief of the office W-1.
Q And where was his office located, physically?
A His offices of his administration, as I have already said, were located in the administrative barracks, which was located in the large brick works of Oranienburg.
Q Was it inside or outside the concentration camp?
A That was outside the concentration camp, but the barracks all the same were surrounded by guards.
Q About how far outside was the office from the camp?
A Well, maybe one-hundred to two-hundred yards. I could not tell you the exact distance there.
Q And where was your office in relation to Mummenthey's office?
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
A I don't quite get your question.
Q Where was your office in relation to Mummenthey's office?
A My office?
Q Yes?
A Well, I only worked with the legal reporter, Dr. Schneider. That is, my activities dealt especially with insurance questions.
Q Excuse me. What I am trying to get at is the physical setup of the concentration camp. Where was the legal division offices in relation to Mummenthey's office. Were your offices inside the concentration camp?
A My office was on the Stone Processing -- on the Stone Processing Works in the barracks, and the work manager, and the checking department were also there.
Q Was this inside of the camp?
A No, that was in the Stone Processing Works. That is not inside the Klinker Camp, but further into the work place, on the stone location.
Q From your office could you see the workers marching to and from their work in the Klinker Works?
A From my office I saw the inmates as they worked?
Q Was this work of the Dest Industry that they were doing in the quarry works, or the stone works?
A No, these were works which were done in the brick works and in the camp itself, where the stones were placed.
Q When Mummenthey went from his office to the offices of the legal division, was it necessary for him to pass the work details in the concentration camp?
A If the then Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey went from his office to the Stone Processing Works, that is, to the legal department of this works, then he had to cross the stone place where the stones were deposited.
Q Would he ordinarily have seen the workers at their work?
A Yes, he could see the workers.
Q In the spring of 1944 did you have occasion to write a memorandum concerning the working conditions in Sachsenhausen?
A Yes.
Q Will you describe the circumstances of that memorandum?
A In this memorandum, in this expert opinion, I made a comparison between the criminal inmates and inmates of the concentration camp, and I compared the working and living conditions of these two groups, and I described them.
Q Who asked you to make this study?
A Dr. Schneider, the legal reporter.
Q The legal reporter?
A Yes, the legal reporter of the Office W-1.
Q And do you know for what reasons the report was prepared?
AAccording to the testimony of the legal expert, Dr. Schneider the WVHA wanted to have greater indemnication for the work of the inmates, and the reason was that the Administration of Justice for their criminal inmates, that is from the employers who used criminal inmates of the Justice prison, was paid higher than the WVHA for their inmates.
Q And the WVHA wanted to know why their prisoners produced less than the Justice prisoners, is that it?
A Dr. Schneider told me that the Chief of the Amt, in that instance Mummenthey, wanted to know what the reasons are why the inmates furnish less work as compared with the criminal convicts of the Justice Administration.
Q And what did you say in your memorandum?
A I tried to describe the reasons, the main reasons for the decreased output of the inmates.
Q What were those reasons that you gave in the memorandum?
A I said that the criminal convicts of the Justice Administration were treated like human beings after they were sent to the prison and not as in the concentration camp treated as mere numbers.
Further, I described that the criminal convicts of one Justice Administration did not have to endure, or practically not, any mistreatment. If there might be instances of this character, the prison wardens would be fired immediately.
Then I said further that the clothing and the food and the accommodations of the criminal convicts of the Justice Administration, in the execution of sentences, were quite different from what they were in the concentration camps.
Furthermore, I pointed to the fact that because the inmates of the concentration camps did not know whether and when they could leave the camps and be released, they were depressed and that therefore they would not work in the same manner as the criminal convicts in the prisons, who knew exactly on what day and what day and at what hour they would be released from the prison.
Q Do you know whether Mummenthey received a copy of this expert opinion to the Chief of the Amt.
Q Dr. Engler, during your work in the legal department did you hear the term "Action Reinhardt"?
A I have heard this word only once during a conversation, without knowing the actual meaning of this "Action Reinhardt".
Q You heard that in a conversation in the legal department, did you?
A Well, today I cannot recall after such a long period of time in what connection and from whom I heard of the Action Reinhardt. This was a conversation which was of secondary importance, and I was not interested in that matter.
Q Do you remember when it was that you heard it?
A I did not quite understand you.
Q When.
A Well, today I could not tell you that exactly any longer.
Q Did you have occasion to learn about certain diamond cutters who were used in the DEST industry?
AAs I was in charge of the File administration, I saw a file once which was concerned with diamond cutter Hertogenbosch, and in this file I learned that there were Jews -- three brothers -- who had the secret of cutting diamonds and who were the most famous diamond cutters of the world. They did not want to give the secret away to the SS, and in this file it was mentioned that an attempt should be made to extort this secret of diamond cutting from these Jews in some manner, either by good persuasion or by other means.
Q What was the relation of the DEST industries to this activity?
A Well, this diamond cutting, if I remember well, was subordinate to the then SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Eggert.
Q And did the SS obtain the secret from the three brothers, as far as you know?
AAs far as I recall, these three brothers did not give away the secret.
Q Do you know what happened to the three brothers?
A I cannot give you any information as to what happened to them.
Q Did you hear about a watch repair shop in Sachsenhausen?
A Yes. Well, in the camp Sachsenhausen--I think in Block 60--there was a watch repair shop in which inmates were working and I remember well, most of them were Jews.
Q Do you know where the watches came from?
A They came from the occupied territories, if I remember well.
Q In the course of you work in the legal department, Dr. Engler, did you learn anything about the acquisition of the Bohemian Ceramics plant by the WVHA?
A Well, the Bohemian Porzellan factory, china factory was bought, as far as I remember.
Q Do you know from whom it was purchased?
A Well, if I remember well, it was purchased by the WVHA.
Q And from whom?
A Well, I worked on that matter at that time, it is true, but I can remember only that a certain Dr. Kobga (?) was there as a trustee. He refused to hand over this enterprise to the SS and sell it to them. At that time I reported to the Prosecutor of the District Court of Agar and requested the files on Dr. Kobga, and I also read them at that time.
There I found out that Dr. Kobga had been arrested on the basis of a denunciation which some party dignitary in Agar had made, and after an arrest of, if I remember well, he had been released from protective custody.
Q Dr. Kobga owned a part of the shares in the Bohemian Ceramics factory, did he?
A He did not own any shares. The shares belonged to, two Jews who had emigrated to England. I have to point out that for all my testimony I can only testify in accordance with what I recall, and therefore I cannot give any definite answer here concerning these matters.
Q You studied the files in this case, did you, on the arrest of Dr. Kobga and how it had come about, and then I looked at the result of the investigation.
Q Do you know when Dr. Kobga was arrested?
A I told you already that he was charged with having connections with Jews who lived abroad and having maintained these connections. The shares of the Bohemia were, if I remember well, deposited in a Bohemian Bank. I think it was in Prague.
Q And the Bohemian plants was finally acquired by the WVHA? Do you know whether or not that is true?
A Well, I could not tell you that definitely today, but I think that the Bohemia was purchased and the Director Hechtfischer was appointed manager.
Q Do you know what was paid for the plant?
A No, I could not tell you anything with regard to that, what was the sum for the purchase if a purchase was made at all.
Q In the course of your work in the legal department in the DEST did you hear the name of Volk?
A On the strength of my knowledge of the files, because I administered and I dealt with the files, I also heard the name Dr. Volk and saw his signature.
Q Do you know what position he held?
A If I remember well he was the personnel expert of the Hauptamtschef, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q Did you hear the name of Hohberg?
A Yes, this name. I want to tell you all the names in order to shorten the matter. I remember the names Volk, Baier, Hohberg. Just a minute, I cannot tell you anything more for the time being, but that was only because I studied the files.
Q You saw those names in the files in the DEST?
A I saw the names in the files of the DEST.
Q Do you know what position Hohberg and Baier occupied?
AAs far as I recall, Dr. Hohberg, before the Oberfuehrer Baier became chief of Staff W, before that Dr. Hohberg held the same position.
Q Do you know what the extent of the control of Staff W was over the DEST industry and over the other industries in the WVHA?
A Well, the Staff W was the highest authority in the office, W-1.
Q Witness, do you think you could identify Pohl and Mummenthey today from having seen them during your work with the WVHA?
A Yes, I think I can.
Q Will you stand up and see if you can identify them in this room.
A The former Obergruppenfuehrer is in the first range near the door at the left.
Q Is that Pohl?
AAnd the former Oberstandartenfuehrer Mummenthey is the third defendant in the back range from the right.
Q Will you tell us again where Pohl is sitting?
A In the first range at the left near the door, the first of the defendants, the front row.
MR. ROBBINS: I ask that the record show that the witness identified Pohl and Mummenthey, that the witness properly identified the defendants, Pohl and Mummenthey.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
MR. ROBBINS: That is all the questions the Prosecution has.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense may cross-examine this witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL: (For Defendant Oswald Pohl)
Q Witness, in the year 1940 there was a proceeding against you before the Special Court. What was the subject of the charges, what were you charged with in the indictment?
A I already mentioned that I was said to have influenced Gestapo officials to release inmates from the concentration camps by bribery, by money.
AAnd these charges nominally corresponded to the fact?
A I did not pay any money to the Gestapo officials. I must say here for the honor of these two Gestapo officials, that the latter part, they did it for ideal reasons, and this fact was decisive, for the fact that the kommissar was sentenced, but not in connection with my own trial, and he was acquitted also. That means that the Tribunal recognized the fact in its opinion that the charges which had been submitted were not corresponding to the fact.
Q You then described the conditions in the DEST industries, and you stated that the workers there had to work for twelve hours.
I now ask you, isn't it a fact that as from 1943 the German workers in the German armament factories had to work eleven and twelve hours daily also?
A May I point out to you Counsel, that during this time I was in the concentration camp and I didn't know anything with regard to the conditions outside, but it is true that later on I was told that.
Q You were then for a certain time legal adviser of the inmates?
A Yes.
Q You also described the activities already which you exercised within this function, but one may draw the conclusion from that the inmates were not completely secluded from the outer world.
A I told you already that the justice administration had complained about the fact that the deadlines were not met and the obligations were not met. You know, for instance, in the Staff W there were certain deadlines to meet, and these complaints were then passed on by the justice administration to the administration of the concentration camps and accumulated there, and then they created the position of legal adviser to the inmates.
Q You furthermore testified that as from 1943 the conditions improved in many instances, and you also stated there were reasons for these improvements. Wasn't the fact also a reason that as from 1942, and more from 1943, an attempt was made to increase the working output of the inmates, and that was perhaps a reason which would lead to improvements in the food and in the treatment of the inmates?
A What you say, Counsel, is correct. During the first period, let's say until 1942, as I said already, there were only political reasons decisive, and later on the inmates were considered working power and were to be maintained as working power.
Q Sachsenhausen was a large concentration camp and you yourself were a political prisoner in that connection?
A Yes.
Q But there were other prisoners in this camp. Would you explain to this Tribunal briefly what were the inmates of which this camp was composed?
A In the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen there were political criminals, anti-social elements, and Witnesses of Jehovah that composed the camp. During a certain period there were also the so-called custody prisoners, these people who were sent from prisons because of their charged criminal records and their danger, the danger they presented to society, and they were sent to the camps for an uncertain period of time. There were also habitual criminals in these camps, and violent criminals who had been sent to the camp in custody, and they were considered inmates in the camp, and they had the green insignia in the camp, the green insignia of the criminal inmates.
Q Who set up the so-called self-administration of the camp, the so-called irregular administration?
A It was exercised by the inmates.
Q I want to know what group of inmates.
A Well, one should say that, for instance, the elders of the camp that belonged to the political group and the criminal group, and their foremen, the so-called capos, to a large extent belonged to the criminal inmates. They were criminal inmates.
Q And that is probably also a reason for the fact that these capos were to a much larger extent as compared to the SS, that they mistreated the inmates more than the SS?
A Yes, according to their mentality as formerly pimps and criminals, they just let go to their lusts and their sadism, but that, of course, was only possible because the SS members themselves had preferred these people as capos.