A The Corporation Charter with the DWB, GmBH was merely a matter which referred to taxation law and commercial law. The decisive factor here were the orders from the Chief and the personality of Pohl. The DEST of the plant at Oranienburg was Pohl's chief worry. Consequently, Pohl was mainly interested in this plant and the DEST, and that is the reason why Mumenthey with regard to his business management had to pay much more attention to his work than the other chiefs, he was much more subordinated to the authority of Pohl.
Q Are you informed about Mumenthey's attitude with regard to the inmate question? I am referring in particular to the treatment of the inmates who were working in the plants of the DEST.
Q I would like to express myself in the following manner, Dr. Froeschmann. Every human being whenever he is exposed to the sun, he has to throw a certain shadow, and every human being has a certain reputation as far as living together with other people is concerned. Formerly, I used to call it a shadow picture of that person. And such a shadow was also cast by Mumenthey, it was cast by all of us. From that office I only know that Mumenthey was regarded as a very social, not only toward the members of his staff, but also toward the inmates. I have heard, for example, that he managed to get potatoes, by giving the farmers bricks in return. After all, potatoes could not be easily obtained during the war.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
On one occasion I also heard that he procured several shipments of soda water for inmates. I also heard that he requested, that he succeeded in getting thirty to thirty-five inmates released on his own initiative. By applying to the WVHA, these persons were later employed as civilians with the DEST.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, after telling us about the shadow of man, and social attitude, and so on--now you have given us three episodes, each one of which you preceded with the statement "I have heard." Do you know these of your own knowledge?
WITNESS: Yes. With regard to the releases of inmates I know that from my own knowledge.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Then state "of your own knowledge." You said "I have heard" which, of course, makes it hearsay.
WITNESS: Very well, Your Honor.
I know from my own knowledge that Mummenthey succeeded in having these inmates released. I found out about that because he made an inquiry to the DWB G.m.b.H. just how the inmates were to become civilian employees, because for the civilian employees I was competent to figure out the wages. He made an inquiry as to just what salaries those former inmates were to receive since they had become employees. I know that from my own knowledge.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for Mummenthey):
Q Now, another question, witness. Do you know that Mummenthey in the year 1942 was to become a full-time SS officer?
A Yes; Pohl wanted that. However, Mummenthey refused that. Actually, the appointment was never carried out. I wasn't present when he saw Pohl.
Q Can you recall that Mummenthey stated at the time that he could not consider it, and he wouldn't consider leaving the DEST?
A Yes; he voiced that opinion very frequently.
Q And now my last question. Are you informed about Mummenthey's relationship to the DEST, as far as his work was concerned. Did he have a contract with Pohl, with the DEST, or the DWB?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A In my opinion, he had a contract with the DEST G.m.b.H. The contract had the same form as the contract which has been submitted here in the files, as far as I was concerned.
Q Witness, did you have the opportunity to watch the inmates who were at work in the DEST enterprises?
A Yes, only on one occasion at Flossenburg. I described that in my direct examination, but I didn't see him otherwise.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
BY DR. FICHT (Counsel for defendant Klein):
Q Witness, did you ask Klein to come and see you in the spring of 1944, and did you pass on some important information to him on that occasion?
A Yes.
Q What did you tell him?
A Klein wanted to make a report to Pohl and I met him when he was coming downstairs. I asked him to come into my office with me because I wanted to tell him something. On that occasion I told him that Pohl frequently had made derogatory remarks about his business management.
Q And what did Klein reply to you?
A He told me that he couldn't understand that at all. He told me that he couldn't understand the reasons that had caused Pohl to make such statements.
Q Why did you warn Klein?
A Because he was my colleague, and I didn't want to see that a man should suddenly be dismissed. That is why I wanted to pass on that information to him. Actually, I was not authorized to do that, but, after all, Klein was a fellow lawyer and as a colleague I wanted to tell him about it.
Q Now, I want to ask you about another matter. Did you attend the balance sheet conference of all the enterprises in Office W in June, 1944, and were you the court reporter at that time?
A Yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Were all the balance sheets of all the various firms discussed oh that occasion?
A Yes, they were discussed, one after the other. Every office chief would come with the competent business manager, and then the office chief or the man who was in charge of the group of enterprises would remain there during the entire time and he would represent his office.
Q However, not all the men in charge of the films were present at the same time?
A No.
Q Can you recall about the official judgment of Pohl's with regard to the films in W-8?
A Yes.
Q Just what was your opinion of Pohl about that?
A Pohl praised the business management of Klein, and he expressed his gratitude to him for the way he had conducted the business.
Q Were any complaints, could any complaints be concluded from that?
A No.
Q When Klein moved his agency to Kranichfeld in 1944 did you see him at all after that time?
A Yes.
Q When did you see him?
A I believe that was in July or August, 1944. It was very hot on that occasion; I can still remember that.
Q What caused you to pay him that visit?
A Pohl ordered me to go to Kranichfeld unexpectedly, and I was to determine there the commercial branch office was working, and that is why I went there. I was not allowed to announce my arrival there beforehand. I was especially told not to talk to Klein about it.
Q How long did you have to travel to Kranichfeld from Berlin?
A Yes, I came from Berlin. I took an express train, and it took me five hours to get there, and then I had to go for another three hours on the local train, and then I had to walk for an additional half Court No. II, Case No. 4.an hour.
Q Were you able to surprise Klein, and what impression did you gain of his work?
A I arrived there in the afternoon at four thirty, and I immediately had myself announced to him. And then I was taken to his office. He expressed his surprise about the fact that I had not called on him before because then he would have sent for me with a car to the station. I told him that I was not allowed to do that. He had two big piles before him, and he was signing the correspondence.
Q What impression did you gain from the entire office?
A I concluded that it was working regularly and efficiently.
Q How long did you remain at Kranichfeld?
A I remained there for approximately three hours.
Q Did you report about this visit to Pohl, and just what did you state in your report?
A I told Pohl that the office was making the impression of efficiency; that all the employees had worked at their desks--even on this very hot day. And, after all, I couldn't carry out any auditing work because I didn't know anything about it--or very little. Therefore, I could only give a description, a description of the impression that I gained.
Q Do you know whether Klein had any closer contact with members of the Main Office, or did he seem to be very reserved?
A The latter seems to be correct because he had very little contact with these people.
Q Can you give me an example of that?
A No, unfortunately I am unable to do that. I only know-
Q Did he tell you about his family matters?
A No, I never heard anything about his family status. I only saw the announcement of his marriage on one occasion. I think when he got married he sent me his marriage announcement.
Q Do you know anything about the arrest of his sister?
A Yes, I know about it now. I heard about that in the year 1945.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Then I have several other questions. These questions refer to the fact that, according to your previous testimony about the business methods of Office Group W and about the personality of the defendant Pohl, you are so well informed.
Do you know the auditing report of the business management of the defendant Klein. It has just been mentioned before, and it was compiled in the fall of 1944.
A I did not read it. If you ask me whether I knew it, that is saying too much. I heard about it.
Q Where did you see this report?
A The court officer, Dr. Schmidt-Klevenow, received this report, and he showed it to me in his office. There were many green lines drawn by Pohl on that report.
Q May I assume that you looked at that report very briefly, but that you are not informed about the details?
A No, I cannot testify about any details in that report.
Q May I put the following to you? Upon the question of Judge Phillips whether any embezzlement had been ascertained, the defendant Baier stated on the witness stand that Klein had made loans to his collaborators, and that he paid them expenses for rent and official trips. And it was stated that these loans had not yet been repaid when the auditing was carried out. In that connection, I want to ask you: As an office chief, was the defendant Klein authorized to give loans to pay travel expenses to his collaborators?
A Yes.
Q Wasn't he required by his duty to do that?
A Yes, his duty required him to do that.
Q When were these loans to be repaid--that is, after the trip was completed?
A If possible, after the trip was completed. That is how it was done in the government agencies. Of course, in our offices it would happen that these things were repaid very late. However, this may have been caused by the conditions of war.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q And were the conditions which prevailed in 1944 important in that case?
A Yes, it may be assumed. However, I don't know any details about that.
Q Do you know just what the credits were which were given for rents?
A Yes, 3 or 4 houses had been constructed there and Klein always urged that the rent was to be fixed. However, the bills for the construction expenses had not arrived yet, and in the case of one family houses, with the interest from the capital, about 7½% interest would be obtained and that would be the rent, of course.
Q Witness, summing up this point, may I ask: Could Klein be charged that he had not charged for the rents until the construction expenses had been figures, so that the rents could be fixed?
A Yes, the rents could not be fixed by Pohl.
Q No, what I mean is, could he be reproached if he did not collect rents from those people who were already living in these houses before the bills for the construction had been compiled? After all, these bills took up some time before they arrived.
Q According to German Penal Law, he could not have been charged with that at all. Of course, as a business manager, it would have been better if he had told the employee in question, "Just pay a certain amount for the time being and we will settle the matter later." All that would mean was that he would only make the employee a certain advance.
Q The Defendant Baier has stated on the witness stand that in construction matters, and here he was referring to the construction of houses where the funds which had been appropriated, had been extended without any further permission. At the time, and now I am referring to the period of the years '43 and '44, was it not just customary that the expenses for the construction actually were much higher than the expenses which were included in the planning?
A Yes, that is correct. However, if you know the practice, Court No. II, Case No. 4.the planning for a house is always higher than it was previously considered.
Q That is not what I wanted to know. I wanted to know whether the difference was still larger than normal under these circumstances?
A Yes, we had to pay more, because material could not be legally obtained.
Q Didn't it happen in the WVHA that such appropriated funds were exceeded and do you know if Pohl was ever reproached an office chief for having done that?
A No, I can't recall such a case at all at the moment.
Q Did the auditing report show in any way that the construction work which was carried out by Klein for his employees was extraordinary expensive or that the funds which were spent had been illegally spent?
A I saw the house where Klein was living. He invited me for supper one evening and he showed me around the house. It was a very small and modest family house.
Q Did the report show that Klein had embezzled any money from the organizations or from his work?
A No, I don't know the report and I haven't heard anything about that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Counsel, how does all this affect the charges in the indictment, I mean, your client. I think you had referred to this once before?
DR. FIGHT: Your Honor, a similar question has already been asked by the presiding judge and Mr. Robbins on that occasion stated that he considered it important for what reasons Klein had to leave his office. From this reason I asked the individual questions on that subject. However, I will be finished in just one moment.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That's all right. I have just been wondering. I see now what you have in mind. Very well.
Q (By Dr. Ficht) I would now like to come to my final question. I would like to ask the following. The defendant Baier has made the statement in the witness stand upon the question of Judge Phillips that he was Court No. II, Case No. 4.not a legal expert and he could not state whether here there was an embezzlement.
Now you happen to be a legal expert and you were working in the WVHA. I therefore want to ask you, according to the facts which have been stated, can we talk about embezzlement and fraud in this case?
A We cannot speak about embezzlement at all, because according to German Penal Law this would not be an embezzlement. According to paragraph 266 of our Legal Code, it is not fraud either, for after it has been booked then in my opinion there is no intention of taking the funds. In short, he did not appropriate these funds for his own use.
Q And now my final question. What was your total impression about this auditing report?
A I did not see the auditing report.
Q However, you looked it over with Schmidt-Klevenow and you talked about it with him.
A Yes, the court officer, Dr. Schmidt-Klevenow, told me, "Dr. Volk, you, as a legal expert know that if one wants to hang somebody, a legal expert can always find a way that this can be done."
DR. FICHT: Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions by defense counsel? I think we might take up cross-examination at the end of the recess, Mr. Robbins. We will recess until l:45.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 29 July 1947) LEO VOLK - Resumed.
CROSS EXAMINATION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, just before recess in connection with the DEST Industry you mentioned Schondorf. Do you know Schondorf's present location?
A. I heard it here. As I was told here, he is alledged to be in London, in order to build brick factories there. I know that Schondorf, in the month of May or June 1945, was captured by the British Occupation Forces, and taken to the internment camp of Nevengamme. I heard from his wife that he was in several internment camps. I only gained my first knowledge here at this trial.
Q. Can you tell us, witness, what the functions of a syndikus are?
A. That designation was given me by Herr Pohl.
Q. Is that a word in art, or a technical term that is used in business and commerce, generally ?
A. Yes, it is a term which was particularly used prior to 1933 for experts who dealt with legal matters. In Germany you either say a syndikus or justitiar, those are the two terms.
Q. Is that a position in the management, of an industry, in a field position?
A. No, not quite. I told the defense the position as such can not be seen from the term itself.
Q. It does not correspond to a position of prokurist?
A. No, the prokurist is a person, or rather a term itself used in a mercial code, while the term syndikus can be acquired by almost anybody. A person can call himself a syndikus who has not even completed his legal status entirely in Germany. For instance, we say here that man is not a full lawyer.
Q. Well, does a syndikus have anything to do with the management of an industry?
A. I still want to inform you, Mr. Prosecutor, it depends. It does not necessarily have to be -- it can be -- but then again it can't be.
Q. Well, we will come back to that in a moment. You tell us you joined the Party, the NSDAP, in April 1933, is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. You say you disagreed with the principles of the Party?
A. That is correct, too.
Q. And in November 1933 you joined the General SS?
A. Yes, that's correct. On 5 November.
Q. And you joined the Allgemeine SS because a member of the Party told you you would have to do so. Is that right?
A. I don't get that. Would you please repeat that?
Q. You joined the Allgemeine SS because at a meeting in an auditorium in Berlin a member of the Party told you you would have to join the Allgemeine SS?
A. Yes. A leader of the junior lawyers held a speech, and as I said before, he said that all referendars should belong or had to join one of the Parties, the SA or something else, or would be releasedfired afterwards.
Q. You were not drafted into membership into the Allgemeine SS by the State or by any agency of the Reich, were you?
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. And then in 1937 you became a member of the Reiter-SS. What month was that?
A. I was transferred. I can't tell you the month for sure.
Q. You retained your membership in the Allgemeine SS, did you not?
A. Yes, the Reiter or mounter SS is part of the General SS.
Q. In 1940 you were transferred to the administrative service of the Waffen-SS?
A. No, that is not correct.
Q. You received an order as a member of the SS to become a member of the Waffen-SS?
A. That's not the reason. The Waffen-SS had finally succeeded in getting age groups from 1900 to 1912, who had not had service with the Wehrmacht yet were to be permitted into the Waffen-SS. As prior to the War I didn't have any Wehrmacht training I was conscripted.
Q. Witness, in 1940?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1940 civilians weren't being drafted into the Waffen-SS.
A. Yes, indeed. Just like any other soldier I was conscripted into the Waffen SS by a Wehrbezirks-commando(order). I have an affidavit which comes from the files in my agency which was transmitted by my defense counsel. Otherwise I would never have joined the WaffenSS but I would have gone to the Ack-Ack.
Q. Witness, is it true you received an order as a member of the SS to join the Waffen-SS?
A. No.
Q. The order was addressed to you as an SS man, wasn't it?
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. Isn't this true, witness, that in 1940 the Waffen-SS was transferring members of the Allgemeine SS and the Reiter-SS into the Waffen-SS, but was not conscripting non-members nor civilians?
A. That's not correct, Mr. Prosecutor. They did conscript several members of the General SS because they had their lists but they also conscripted others. Actually they couldn't conscript me at the time because I was suffering from a heart ailment. Actually until the end of the War I was not to be used in certain positions and I asked one of the doctors to shut one of his eyes and declare me not fit for service. That is the only way I did not go to the front.
Q. You didn't know then that it wasn't until 27 November 1943 until civilians were conscripted into the Waffen-SS. You state that that isn't true, is that right?
A. That is correct -- it is not right.
Q. The 1600 Reichmarks that you received per month from the DWB was a sum greater than the amount you would have received as a Hauptsturmfuehrer, it that correct?
A. Yes, of course but-----
Q. And you were given the choice of taking the $1600 a month or you were also, given the choice of taking the pay of a Hauptsturmfuehrer?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You told the can $1600.
MR. ROBBINS: I am sorry, I earn 1600 Reichsmarks.
A. That choice was not left up to me.
Q. Didn't you tell us that Pohl told you that you could take the salary of a Hauptsturmfuehrer if you wanted to?
A. Yes, he did. That is correct but it was not up to me. I didn't have the choice. After all I had a family and two children and I had a very expensive apartment. I had two families to support. With the pay of a Hauptsturmfuehrer I couldn't possibly have been able to live. So that was not through duress for me, namely, to select the regular salary of a Hauptsturmfuehrer. Mr. Prosecutor, may I please ---
Q. Would you say that that economic necessity limited your choice?
A. Yes, quite so.
Q. Witness, at any time did you make a request to leave the Waffen SS?
A. I couldn't do that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. I just asked you if you did.
A. No.
Q. Did you make any request to leave the WVHA or the administrative service of the SS?
A. I repeatedly asked Mr. Pohl to let me go because I had such a position which I didn't like. I had to stomach the job all the time, just like a dog at the end of a chain.
I asked to go somewhere else but Herr Pohl said ---
Q. What did Herr Pohl say to you?
A. Herr Pohl said he couldn't let me go. Then towards the end of December I volunteered for the front and even that caused me struggle.
Q. When he told you he couldn't let you go, did he tell you you were indispensible in your job?
A. No, he didn't tell me that.
Q. Witness, I am interested in your statement the other day that your religion is Catholic. I notice that in your SS questionnaire you stated that your religion is Gottglaeubig.
A. That is correct.
Q. Will you tell us what connection that has with the SS.
A. Yes, I will.
Q. Very brief.
A. During all the years from 1941 on, from 1940 or prior to that, the SD was shadowing me. I told my wife that I would have to withdraw from the church but for her to stay in the church along with the children because after the War I intended to go somewhere else.
Q. And this was the official religion of the SS wasn't it?
A. No, it was not the official religion of the SS. But all human beings who were not members of one faith but who believed in God called themselves Gottglaeubig in Germany.
Q. Now, witness, you told us, going on to another matter, that you had nothing to do with inmate questions and had not contact with Amtsgruppe D. I want to show you a few documents and ask you in what capacity you carried out these functions as represented in the documents?
First I want to show you NO-1952.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What will be the number of this for indentification, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: This is Exhibit 606, your Honor.
This is a letter dated 30 July 1943. Can you tell us who has signed the letter? Is this Maurer?
A. No, that's Gluecks.
Q. He was chief of Amtsgruppe D, was he not?
A. Yes. However, do let me read the letter first, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Witness, I don't want to go into detail in this regard, and I don't want to spend too much time on these documents. I just want to ask you if you can recall this transaction.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, however, I have to read the letter first. It is a letter which is dated 1943 and it has been four years since that. How do you want me to remember all about it ?
Q. Do you recall this transaction?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And in what capacity were you handling this matter?
A. The "Bohemia" had complained about the fact that they were to pay for the expenses of the barracks. That matter was submitted to Herr Pohl and Herr Pohl told me that I should write to Amtsgruppe D whereupon I wrote to Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks and I informed him of all the things Pohl told me, whereupon I received this answer here.
Q. Then, were you handling this matter as the personal referent of Pohl or as a legal expert in Amtsgruppe W?
A. Well that's difficult to say that. You could say in both capacities, actually. Mr. Prosecutor, you know I would like to tell you in advance that even my secretary did not always make a difference between that two. She wrote letters, sometimes wrote under Staff W and sometimes under Personal Referent and, if I didn't pay good attention, then the letters were sent out under the wrong heading. I really couldn't judge the matter so severely and differentiate between the two. So far as labor allocation of inmates was concerned I had nothing to do with it. I only had to take care of expenses which the "Bohemia" had to pay -- the barracks and the labor camps were to be established at their expense.
Q. And can you tell me what time the "Bohemia" started its production for war purposes?
A. I only found out about it later on and I found out it was for war purposes. Mr. Prosecutor, did I understand you correctly? I thought it was for war purposes. What do you mean by war purposes?
Q. Well, let me ask you, what was being produced by "Bohemia"?
A. Porcelain was produced there.
Q. The documents show that it was being converted in 1942 for the so-called war production. Can you tell me what was being produced after that time?
A. As far as I know, in 1943, porcelain was still being manufactured there. I do remember, however, and I can't tell you that for sure - that they also produced certain parts for planes, but I couldn't tell you what for certain. However, I imagine that the defendant Mummenthey can give you information on that.
Q. I should like to show you another document, witness, which is NO 3769, which I will mark as Prosecution Exhibit 607, and ask you if you recall this transaction?
A. I did not remember this transaction.
Q. You see your initials on the letter, do you not?
A. The letter does not look very familiar to me either. In any case, I do see that in the entry stamp up in the right hand corner my initials are there --- "BV" but, Mr. Prosecutor, these initials can be found on a whole number of letters. I already told my interrogator that that's the way things were. I had so much to do. The entire mail of DWB was put on my desk and every morning I had to have conferences. I couldn't read all the mail, whereupon I passed it on. Then again the messenger told me the mail would not be accepted unless I put my initials on it. I had to place my initials on it. It was thus that I would place my initials on lots of letters so that they could pass on. If I had to work on these letters then I would receive them again.
Q. Then, it is your testimony that you handled this only as it came by your desk and that you don't remember anything about the transaction?
A. Sometimes I would have fifty or sixty letters in the morning and I would then ----
Q. (Interrupting) I don't care what you sometimes did. I'm asking you about this particular transaction.
Now, you handled matters for this clearance office, didn't you?
A. No, the clearance office was not particularly my field of tasks. It was part of Dr. Wenner's field of tasks.
Q. You didn't work on these matters at all?
A. No, I didn't. It depended in case there should be a legal question, then I would work on them, but the clearance office as such was a task of the financial office.
Q. Wasn't there any legal question involved in this that drew your attention to it?
A. I can't remember anything in particular right now.
Q. Well, witness, you worked on matters of so-called inmate wages, didn't you?
A. What? Inmate wages?
Q. That's what I said.
A. No, I never did deal with inmate wages. That can be seen from the documents, that I was not working on inmate wages.
Q. Well, will you look at Document Book 15, NO. 514, Exhibit 414, on page 51 of the German, page 40 of the English. I ask you why it was that Baier sent you this memorandum concerning the wage scale for inmates?
A. Herr Baier only informed me of it. I didn't work on it. He informed all the collaborators of that. It can been seen from this document -- "Dr. Wenner, Dr. Hoffman, Dr. Weber and then Volk, after the return." I looked at it on the 15th of March, that is eight days later.
Q. You say that he informed all the collaborators. You were one of them, weren't you?
A. Yes, I was in Staff W.
Q. You were one of the collaborators on the wage plans, weren't you?
A. No, I wasn't. I can prove that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Well, just answer my question. You never discussed the wage scale for inmates with anyone in Staff W? Is that your testimony?
A. Discussed it? Well, to discuss something is not to work on it. Maybe I did talk about it. I can't remember that, however. But I was not the lawyer who worked on inmate wages. That can be seen from Document NO---
Q. (Interrupting) With whom did you discuss this subject matter?
A. I told you before I couldn't remember, Mr. Prosecutor. Maybe I did speak about the inmate labor, but ---
Q. (Interrupting) Did you ever discuss the problem with Hoffmann?
A. I can't remember that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Wenner?
A. I can't give you clear information about it.
Q. Well, do you remember discussing it with Wenner? You can answer that "yes" or "no".
A. I really can't remember.
Q. Did you discuss it with Pohl?
A. I can't remember that, either. I am sure I didn't discuss it with Herr Pohl.
Q. Well, you do remember that you didn't discuss it with Pohl? Is that right?
A. Well, I'm just telling you, Mr. Prosecutor, I really can't tell you that. I only can tell you what I know.
Q. Well, let's pass on to another matter, then.
A. Mr.Prosecutor, I just wanted to explain to you that the lawyer.
Q. (Interrupting) I don't want your explanations. You gave me your answer. I want to show you a document that I questioned Baier on and ask you if this came to your attention or whether you obtained knowledge of its contents? These are the letters concerning the Schieferol Company, and I'm going to show you Exhibit 582, NO. 3793, and Exhibit 583, NO-4073. Did you ever see these letters before?
A. I have not looked through all the letters as yet.
I am seeing these letters here for the first time.
Q. Did you have any conferences or discussions about the matters contained in these documents?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the nature of those discussions?
A. Herr Dr. Hoffman came to see me one day and he told me that he had gained knowledge of the fact that, in the Slate Oil Scientific Research GMBH, there was an epidemic. He said that this was not part of the competency of Staff W but that action was required and that one could not possibly discuss questions of competency in such an urgent moment. He asked me to please see that his adjutant would be permitted to speak to Pohl.