Q. And were two shifts used in these plants, two twelve-hour shifts?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. What kind of work were you doing for Steyr?
A. I was taken to the messerschmitt armament work from the beginning. I worked for Messerschmitt. I was the only expert among 36,000 inmates who knew anything about aircraft construction.
Q. What did your job consist of?
A. I had to teach other comrades.
Q. You were transferred to Messerschmitt, I believe, in the autumn of 1943, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And was the ME-109 in the Messerschmitt factory in Gusen I ?
A. Yes, we built the plane completely on the rolling band.
Q. You built the body and the wings of the plane?
A. We built the fusilage and the wrings, and both on the assembly belt.
Q. Did you construct the motor of the plance at Gusen I?
A. No, the actual engine was added in Strangling. All we built was the fusilage and the wings.
Q. And the wiring and the panel instruments and the motor and the radio were put in in another place.
A. We built the electric wiring and the undercarriage, wings, fusilage, whereas the engine was built by civilian workers near Straubling.
Q. Was the ME-262, the so-called jet turbine, constructed by Messerschmitt in Gusen I?
A. The 202 was built underground in Gusen II, and that was built with the equipment complete, except for the turbines which were built somewhere else.
Q How long did you continue in this job at Gusen I?
A. In Gusen II worked on the ME-109 until April 1944, and in May, 1944, Messerschmitt took over the tunnels in Gusen II, and that is where the 262 was started. From that day until the collapse I was working in Gusen II.
Q. Will you describe for the Tribunal and in some detail the working conditions at Steyr and at Messerschmitt?
A. As I said before, in the case of the Messerschmitt factory the working conditions were very bad, for the simple reason that the civilians in Messerschmitt were worse than the SS. In Gusen II the underground tunnels were always worked on, were extended, and so forth.
We had to work there without any air conditioning, without any fresh air, for twelve hours a day. Many of the under-nourished inmates contracted tuberculosis of the lung and perished later in the camp. Then, in Gusen II, when somebody was no longer capable of working he was then sent away on what was called an invalid transport, from which, of course, nobody ever returned. The way they got these transports together was that they told the people they were going to recreation centers for workers and that once these people recovered they would be reallocated to their detachment. But during the long time I worked for Messerschmitt I never saw anybody return from a transport.
Q. Yow many buses were usually used in the invalid transport?
A. As a rule there were two buses, which came from Mauthause, and they could take about fifty or sixty inmates. In some cases it happened there was only one transport per month. Sometimes it happened that three or four transports left a month.
Q. Do you know where the buses went, what their ultimate destination was?
A. Yes, they went to Harzhein, near Linz.
Q. Going back to the work at Gusen II, when was construction on the tunnels, the underground tennels in Gusen II, commenced?
A. These underground tunnels were begun to be constructed in February, 1944. The building commandos consisted of men up to one thousand. Later on it was three or four thousand inmates.
Q. Do you know under whom these work details were carried out?
A. Yes, for these so-called tunnels Gruppenhuehrer Kammler was working on the 262 by orders of the Fuehrer, and he was assisted by Obersturmfuehrer Eckermann. He had to see that the work was carried out.
Q. You say he was working on the 262. I take it you mean he was working on constructing the tunnels for the 262, is that correct?
A. Yes, these tunnels were meant exclusively for the construction of the 262.
Q. About how large were those tunnels and how many were there?
A The tunnels on on average were about ten meters high and tive meters broad. Apart from that, thirteen tunnels went through that particular mountain, the height of which as a rule was about fourteen meters, and eight to ten meters broad.
Q. About how deep were the tunnels? How far into the earth did they go?
A. At the time of the collapse ten thousand meters of tunnels were ready. Up to Tunnel 16. Tunnel 16 was taken over by the Messerschmitt people. We worked in it actually.
Q. And did the workers live in the tunnels, an well us work there?
A No, the detachments left their billets to go to their place of work and when the other shift took ever one party went back to the camp and the other shift went on with the work.
Q About how many inmates were employed in Gusen II?
A. In Gunse II, in the Messerschmitt Commando, we were 4,800 inmates, and I think the same number worked on the construction of the tunnels.
Q. Was the construction of the tunnels carried our continuously up until the end of the war?
A. Yes.
Q. They were building new tunnels?
A. Yes, the tunnels wont on all the time?
Q. Did you hear of any plans to evacuate the tunnels in case the Americans should overtake this place?
A. Yes, the plan was that should, for instance, the Americans or the Russians approach the camp, all inmates were to be poisoned. But there wasn't enough poison available, or perhaps it was because the rumor had spread about this, but the matter was dropped, and when the collapse occurred Gusen I and II were to be taken to St. Georgen which was to be blown. Explosives and everything was prepared. The dynamite was taken from the tunnels only after the collapse.
Q. You spoke of a typhus epidemic. Do you know what kind of treatment was given, what kind of medical treatment was given to the inmates who contracted typhus?
A. No, very simple. First of all, there were no drugs; and secondly I myself saw that when somebody was suspected of having typhus he was simple killed, in order to save the camp.
Q. How was he killed?
A. I myself saw that people whom they suspected of having typhus, people with temperatures, they were selected by the block leaders, taken to the washing place and there there were two people who literally beat them to death. Of course, nobody will believe me here, because nobody was present. It may sound incredible now, because nobody thinks that is possible. But all the inmates of Gusen who were there between 1943 and 1945, all of them will be able to confirm this.
Q. You say that the inmates who had contracted typhus were taken to the wash room and there beaten over the head until they died?
A. No, they were beaten on the head and then they were put into a barrel of water and then they were drowned. The man was thrown on the side and the next one was called in. And the peculiar thing of this affair, which probably nobody will believe, nobody is able to believe, is that the inmates who were selected for this, they stood there and waited literally their turn. The Poles, for instance who had been very strictly brought up in religious matters, they began to pray, and then they were beaten on the head and killed. That happened in Gusen, in February, 1945.
Q. What was done with the bodies then after they were killed in the wash room?
A. The bodies were put together, because the roll-call had to be correct and their heads were put in front so that the block leader who walked past could see how many inmates there were dead and alive, and then could report how many inmates he had in his block.
Q. Is this wash room the same place where the inmates had their stove for cooking potatoes and so forth?
A. Yes, that is the same place. In that wash room it happened there was an oven there, and one work detachment which worked on the potato situation, they brought back potatoes with them and people in the wash room cooked these potatoes and ate them in the wash room too.
Q. And at the same time the bodies were piled up, I believe?
A. Yes, of course; nobody cared at that point.
Q. Will you describe to the Court how a human life was regarded by the SS men and by the inmates in the camp?
A. After all, we were only numbers. And dogs were treated better than we. They were given better and varied food, whereas we were given the same monotonous food every day -- potatoes, unpeeled potatoes, rotten potatoes, thrown into our soup, and then were we handed this as a meal.
Q And the point was reached where human life, I take it, became very cheap to the SS-men and to the inmates as well?
A Yes, we, as inmates, I must add here, were completely indifferent. We all knew that sooner or later we would be killed; we would perish in the camp. Only in July 1944 -- after the American pilots were shot down over Linz, and they were sent to the Mauthausen camp-were we told by the Americans and assured by them that no concentration camp would ever be bombed by Americans. They had special maps.
And from that day onwards our only interest was an interest for everything which happened in the camp -- and we tried to remember as much as possible in order to exploit this later on and to make the Nazi people responsible for their crimes later on.
Q I want to ask you one more question about the work in the stone quarries under the DEST. Did you see people there in the stone quarries actually worked to death?
A That was in 1943; two Russians came from the Steyr Kommando, they escaped. The whole camp had to do punitive work Saturday and Sunday. We had to carry stones while running on the double, and the SS beat us mercilessly, and I saw how one inmate was torn to pieces by dogs. He fell on the ground. Whether he was actually dead, I don't know. These were moments, so to speak, which one's memory records immediately as you ran past.
Q And in the stone quarries under the DEST, did you see men beaten to death by the guards?
A Yes, but I did not see it myself.
Q Did you --
A Rumors reached me because, after all, these detachments were so large and the quarry was so big that the various detachments amounted to fifty men sometimes, and one could not see what another detachment was doing, and I could not say anything about it under oath that I had seen it myself.
All I can say is what I have seen.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Krysiak, about when were the quarries at Gusen I and Gusen II converted into munitions factories, about when?
A The armament started there in autumn, 1942 or early in 1943.
Q And prior to that time the quarries had been operated both in Gusen I and Gusen II by the DEST; is that correct?
A Yes, by the DEST.
Q And then at the time of their conversion into armament plants?
A Yes, it was under the DEST.
Q And then when Steyr and Messerschmitt started their munitions manufacture there, did they lease these quarries and tunnels from the DEST?
A No, it was the other way around. The DEST leased the halls and these tunnels and workers to the armament factories. They had to pay rent. The pay for the skilled workers was 8 to 12 marks which had to be paid and 4 marks for the regular workers; in other words, from 4 marks and upward. The payment actually went through the Kommandantur of the concentration camp to the DEST.
Q Then Steyr and Messerschmitt leased the plants from DEST?
A Yes, yes, quite. That is, at least, they leased the halls and the workers.
Q Is it a fact that the inmates in the concentration camp sometimes failed to report the deaths of their fellow prisoners in obtain their food rations?
A Yes, that's the way it was. In winter, for instance, when an inmate died, then he was left in the washroom for two or three days or was only dragged to the roll call so that the number was correct, and during that time the food was kept back; in other words, the part for the dead man was drawn by the living inmates.
Q They were piled in this same kitchen where the inmates had to cook their potatoes; is that correct?
A Yes, that was in the washroom. That's where some those blocks maybe three blocks together had one washroom and the dead from all three barracks were then taken into that washroom, and if one of the inmates finally succeeded in getting something -- for instance, after '42 it was also permitted to receive food parcels into the camp; then the inmates could take something into the washroom and eat it there. If he couldn't sit down any place, if he couldn't find any seat, he just sat on the bodies. The feeling for death absolutely disappeared in these people. They had no feeling whatsoever for it. They couldn't feel it any longer because death in the camp was something that happened all day and every day so that nobody was afraid of it.
Q In the munitions factory what was the punishment meted out to the inmates for mistakes in their work?
AAt the Messerschmitt, for instance, it occurred once in a while that the leading forces; that is, the civilians working there, had no interest whatsoever in their work and they just stood around in groups and made some sort of conversation. However, since the armament came into the concentration camp and representatives of all nations were there, if one or the other of the inmates could understand the language he could understand what the foremen were saying, and if you made a mistake, then either his boss himself beat him or he reported him for sabotage, and such a report meant nothing else for that inmate but that he would be hanged, because sabotage was always punished by death. He was hanged.
Q And were relatively minor mistakes punished as sabotage?
A Sometimes it occurred that the inmate, due to exhaustion or to undernourishment had to -- for instance, they had to bore so and so many holes, for instance four millimeter holes, and if the drilling machine was sort of heavy and it might have slipped off his hand, instead of being straight it was bored in an oval form. Such a profile could have been corrected, however, through a special nail because it could have been used just the same, and if this was reported though to the Kommandofuehrer, then that man, the Kommandofuehrer, had him hanged immediately because it was considered sabotage although it really wasn't.
Q I want to go back for just a moment to the work at the stone quarries. Did you see the workers there who were beaten and hanged as punishment?
A In the quarry itself I did not see it too often. I did not see it. However, I did see at the Messerschmitt how a man went to, say, Tunnel Number 11 with an inmate and he just came back alone, and he said that a dead man had to be carried back to the camp. Therefore, the man was probably hanged.
Q You did see men worked to death in the stone quarries under DEST?
A Yes, I did. They then subsequently died of undernourishment.
Q You saw inmates die, workers in the DEST, die from undernourishment or inmates who had died from undernourishment?
A Yes, I did. They went out together with us and then they came back as bodies.
Q Herr Krysiak, to what do you attribute the fact that you lived through these experiences in Malthausen?
A I can explain that by my health, because I was quite a sportsman. At that time and from the moment on I worked in the armament I was just plain lucky, because they needed me as a specialist, and apart from that I have tuberculosis so that I am not as healthy as I used to be before I entered the camp.
Q You suffer from tuberculosis today, do you?
A Yes, I do.
Q And what is the cause of that?
A Well, my arrest in the concentration camp in Gusen, and furthermore I owe this to the medical corps that took care of us after the collapse, because thousands of us who were taken care of by the American medical corps, quite a few of us died because they were not strong enough to even eat.
The road from St. Georgen to Linz, on that road, at a distance of every ten to twenty meters you could see the dead and who had died subsequently. Later on they were gathered and buried at the churchyard in Gusen.
MR. ROBBINS: The prosecution has no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL (Counsel for defendant Oswald Pohl):
Q Witness, you were arrested for political reasons and sent to the concentration camp Mauthausen; right?
A Yes.
Q In that camp Mauthausen there were also other prisoners who were there for other reasons?
A Yes, there were other inmates also. The camp chiefs and the block chiefs were criminals; whereas we red ones had to do heavy work, for instance, the green ones all got out of the concentration camp where most of the red ones actually died. I don't know if they were actually for political reasons or due to some other reason, but the moment that a person received that red triangle he was used for heavy and bad work.
Q How was the percentage between the political and the habitual criminal inmates there?
A Eighty percent of them were political prisoners, mainly due to the following reasons, because the greatest percentage in the concentration camp of Mauthausen and Gusen were foreigners.
Q You mentioned before that the green ones led various things in the camp. May I understand your statement to the effect that the illegal camp administration was being carried out by the habitual criminals?
A Yes, there were clerks -- the clerks or the greatest part of the capos were habitual criminals.
Q You stated before that heavy abuse took place and was carried out by the block oldest; among these block oldest and the capos there were not members of the SS, but inmates?
A I did not say that most of the abuse came from these capos, but I said generally speaking that amongst us there were quite a few people who beat us and that many of us died. I have to add to that that the SS was the reason for moving the inmates to Gusen, mainly due to such abuses; for the very simple reason that every human being has a certain sense to preserve himself, and the green ones had more of this sense than the political prisoners. For instance, if the Kommandantur would have promised them so and so many cigarettes for having killed so and so many people, I am sure they would have done it.
Court No. II - Case No. 4
Q. The camp commander was responsible for the general situation in the camp?
A. Yes.
Q. The conditions in Gusen 1 were better than in Gusen 2?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it that the construction of Gusen 2 was begun?
A. In winter 1943.
Q. Who was responsible for the working conditions in those particular work shops, or working places, in which the firm Steyr and Messerschmitt had the supervision? Were the firms responsible for that or the camp administration?
A. No, the Dest was responsible for that. It was a fact that the firms would only facilitate contain things for the accommodations, but the most responsible persons for certain things was Otto Walter, who was the Chief of the management of Dest at St. Georgen.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions.
BY DR. HAENSEL for Defendant Georg Loerner:
Q. You said that the barracks in Gusen 1 originally were supposed to held 300 men?
A. Yes.
Q. This number, as you said before, however, was increased to 1,000 men?
A. Yes.
Q. If, we understand now, 300 men were in those barracks, could one say then that they would have been well taken care of?
A. No, what I mean by that, that only three men would, have slept in a bed.
Q. No, you don't understand me. Let's assume that only 300 men had been in the barracks instead of 1,000. Now, do you think that these 300 would have been able to live in a decent manner?
A. In a certain way, yes. If the day room would have remained, a day room then would only have been for 150 men, but when that room, when the day room was also used for sleeping facilities then we had successive use of that barracks.
Q. Let's forgot the successive use of the barracks and let's just assume that when the camp was built and for instance when they built a sleeping hall for 300 people, do you think that would have been suitable?
A. Yes, it would have been.
Q. In other words, the installations themselves were o. k.?
A. Yes.
Q. The difficulty only arose due to the excessive number of people there?
A. Yes.
Q. The beds that were taken there, were they somewhat good?
A. What do you mean by "good"? They were nothing but wooden cots three stories high, 180 centimeters long and 80 centimeters broad, with two blankets, whether it was winter or summer, we had two old blankets.
Q. Were these things sent in or were they manufactured in the camp itself?
A. You mean the beds?
Q. Yes, the beds.
A. I don't know in what concentration camp they were made.
Q. The cupboards?
Court No. II - Case No. 4
A. We did not have any cupboards.
Q. The tables?
A. No, I do not know anything about that either. We had only one table and the block older, the clerk, had that. There was another we had the bread on. There were no tables. There was no such a thing in Gusen 1 or Gusen 2.
Q. Then you were taken to the Guson, did it make an orderly impression?
A. Yes, however, there were no sanitary installations and we had no possibility after putting so many more people in one barracks.
Q. Did you ever visit the camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Was everything all right when you visited the camp?
A. Yes, well I can express it to you. In 1944 on the order of Obersturmfuehrer Meyer, who was in charge of the CIC and who had sent a report to Berlin due to the catastrophic billeting conditions of the camp and also the living conditions in Guson 2, there was a visit immediately upon this report, and prior to that Rapport Leader Killemann Schultz went to see every one of the block elders and told him by threatening him by penal servitude told him what to say. In spite of the fact that Obersturmfuehrer Meyer was then transferred, the Abwehrbeauftragter Limpert was the man who took over. However, the conditions remained the same.
Q. Did every one of the inmates then act as he was told to act according to the instructions. Did everyone do what they were told?
A. Nobody could afford to tell . They did not have the courage.
Q. You said before that you did not understand at Court No. II - Case No. 4 Mauthausen how these men who were condemned to death could have been allowed to be killed.
The human thing to do would have been, I am sure, for these men who would lose their life anyway would at least revolt.
A. No, that is what those people would think out of the camp, but we in the camp, we know this, that the people were apathetic. They did not care if they have to die in three or four days or a week. That was the opinion which everyone had who was in the camp.
Q. That is some sort of a disease, which you are telling us of?
A. Of course it was some sort of a disease. No one would have the power to resist.
Q. How were the guards? Did they often change? When did now people come?
A. Up to 1943 hardly. Then in 1943 on or from the Spring of 1944 there were several changes.
Q. How were these new people arranged in their new jobs?
A. Then they were instructed by Obersturmfuehrer Seidler who acted the same way as their predecessors or comrades.
Q. Are you of the opinion now that this is sort of a redemption?
A. Of course, I have that sort of an impression, but that doesn't help me, or thousands of them that died; many of them worked around and they are eliminated, -
THE PRESIDENT: You were crowding the witness too fast. Give him time to answer. Slow up, please.
Q. It is quite true what you say. It does not help the dead. However, today, we must give the responsibility to those guilty. That is why it is of great importance to see how far in that complex they were; also that applies Court No. II - Case No. 4 to this disease you mentioned and how far such a person could possibly understand their results.
For instance, we could say with you that it was very difficult for you to understand all these horrible things and to think about them, again to speak about them. Now, why my question is justified is how far could a human being who was not in the camp and did not see those things possibly imagine that such things were possible?
A. Excuse me, Defense Counsel, if I tell you that if I stood some place as a manager and figures go through my fingers, when the people are moved or are going to be transported and I have to have some sort of an idea and I ask myself where are these people going, and that is particularly true when reports are being sent to Berlin every day.
Q. This is where nobody could speak of the killings. It is necessary for us to see who is guilty. I am sure there are many guilty ones. That is why I ask that question. What was the chief reaction when they saw people were being killed this, like animals? That is my question.
A. That is something which I mentioned before which cannot be understood by someone who is outside because one cannot express those views. This is something that grasps you and you like to pass over this without questions. I have seen people die in the concentration camp, people for whom I would have given my life, people who were just hurt.
Q. The great question is, if a human being who was a young SS soldier in a camp like that would have possibly been able to keep track of the great number of things that he could not understand himself.
A. I believe, if he was strong in the inside then I am Court No. II - Case No. 4 sure that he would not have let anybody influence him.
For instance, people move to the front after four to six weeks, because people would rather go to the front and live the life there than be in a concentration camp.
DR. HAENSEL: No further questions, Your Honor.
BY DR. BELZER (Attorney for Defendant Sommer):
Q. Witness, you stated before that the civilians some times were worse than the SS. You mentioned that in connection with Steyr and Messerschmitt?
A. No, only with Messerschmitt.
Q. Only with Messerschmitt?
A. Yes.
Q. Did civilians also work in the quarries?
A. Yes.
Q. Also with Steyr?
A. Yes.
Q. Particularly with Messerschmitt?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the working hours for those civilians?
A. The civilians usually worked on the average approximately 8 hours. That is, they work in three shifts.
Q. They worked approximately 8 hours?
A. Yes, whereas we worked in three shifts, in other words, 12 hours a day.
Q. How was it that they interchanged. How did they interchange in front of the inmates?
A. They left and the other shift came.
Q. Now can you tell us anything about the inmate payment, the payment of the inmates, what were they paid?
A. The inmates received certain premium payments. The premiums should have been paid out by the month. On the basis of these premiums we received cigarettes from the Court No. II - Case No. 4 mess halls there.
Or, if we received one mark bonus we received nine cigarettes. Now a good skilled worker could make approximately six or seven or eight bonuses per month and out of those premiums he bought himself cigarettes and then he exchanged them.
Q. What was the value of a single bonus?
A. The single bonus had the value of one mark.
Q. You say that for a month a good skilled worker could receive seven to eight such bonuses?
A. Yes, I said six to eight.
Q. Six to eight.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you have any idea how these premiums were calculated or figured out?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You mean within the factory?
A. Yes, The Kommandofuehrer did that.