AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 12 June 1947) THE MARSHAL:
The Tribunal is again in session.
HEINZ KARL FANSLAU---Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Continued
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I only have a few additional questions and I should like to finish up the cross-examination as soon as possible. Can you tell us when the so-called budget for the Waffen-SS was introduced?
A. I can't give you any exact date. As far as I know, that happened already before I took over my office, before I was charged with the leadership of the Amtsgruppe.
Q. And was there at that time also an open budget for the Allgemeine-SS?
A. In the General SS, I had no information about its administration, because I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do with the administration of funds.
Q. Who handled the administration of the funds for the General SS?
A. Pohl did.
Q. By himself?
A. No, in the details he was assisted by Hans Loerner of Office A -I and he had to carry out the administrative tasks, as far as any tasks accumulated for the General SS.
Q. This was handled by A -I?
A. Yes, the then Oberfuehrer Loerner held two positions here. He had a dual position, adding to his main work.
Q. This is another instance where someone held a dual capacity, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And he handled the budget for the Allgemeine SS, not as Office Chief, but as--in what capacity?
A. As commissioner of Pohl and from the Reich Treasurer Schwarz, he was also directed to carry out this work.
Q. You had no supervision over that whatever?
A. I did not have any authority, nor did I have to deal with tasks of that type at all. He never reported to me about these things and it would have been impossible that as a member of the Waffen-SS, as an active member of the Waffen-SS, I should do some work for the General-SS.
Q. There wasn't very much work to be done at that any way, was there? for the General SS in May, 1944?
A. I can't judge that in the details. I can only say that only since we discontinued the most part, I know that the agencies outside had been discontinued and that the commissioned administrative leaders who were working had been transferred to the Army, the Waffen-SS or to the Luftwaffe.
Q. Was there an open budget during your time as Chief of A for the personnel who were working in the 12 main officess of the SS?
A. Yes, well, personnel was required for the war effort.
Q. And who handled the bookkeeping on the wages for the personnel in the 12 main offices?
A. Well, I cannot state--I cannot make any statement in detail about the one or the other main office. In any case there was a central payment agency of the Waffen SS and I believe at the end this was also true for the police, but that is only an assumption on my part. I cannot say that precisely of my own knowledge.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q For the personnel in the WVHA, who handled the bookkeeping for the payments to the individual Amt Chiefs? That was handled under A, wasn't it?
A The bookkeeping was subordinated to A, and it was with the Central Payment Agency. However, this did not include those who were in the sector of a private economy and who were paid there. I had nothing to do with this treasury, and I believe that it was not even located in our house. But I don't know that exactly either.
Q The Main Pay Office of the SS was located in Dachau, wasn't it? That was handled under A, wasn't it?
A No main pay office existed in that sense. For example, as I have already mentioned, there were several treasuries, those payment agencies were organized according to their localities. They served a certain garrison, and these garrison administrations, of which there were several, were subordinated to the Operational Main Office. That is exactly the same as it was handled in the army administration, in the Wehrmacht.
Q Was there an open budget in May 1944 for the Death Head units?
A As far as I know, no special budget existed at all there anymore for the Death Head units, through the consolidation of the Waffen SS. I don't know exactly when this took place for at that time I was out in the field. I don't know exactly when the consolidation with the Waffen SS took place.
Q Budgetary activities for the Death Head units were handled together with the Waffen SS then?
A I cannot say anything about what happened before my time because in my time no budget existed anymore. That is why I don't know what was done previously.
Q When you say no budget existed, don't you mean there was an open budget? That's not the same as no budget, is it?
A Well, the budget was unlimited, and the money was paid Court No. II, Case No. 4.out according to the requirements which were required for the work.
Q There were records kept of the money that was paid out, weren't there? You just didn't quit keeping books altogether?
A I believe the difference must be made between bookkeeping and budget. As an administrative officer and in peacetime these were two completely different divisions and departments.
Q Then let me ask you about them separately. As far as the functions of budgets are concerned, wasn't it the task of some office in Amtsgruppe A to forward to the Reich Ministry of Finance some kind of request to make funds available for the Waffen SS?
A Yes; of course, that was before my time.
Q Well, during your time wasn't it also the function of A to forward these requests for funds, that is, to make funds available to the Waffen SS?
A I haven't quite understood the translation. I never heard of any case where a request was made. I can't recall any case at all.
Q Well, how would the Reichsbank know hoe to pay? Could just anyone write checks on the Reichsbank?
A Yes. Previously from the Wehrmacht Main Pay Office he bad received a numbered checkbook so that he would be able to draw funds, and these checks were registered. Later on these checks were used as evidence; and with the Reich Main Treasury they appeared as a receipt for money which had been drawn.
Q Didn't these receipts reach any office under Amtsgruppe A?
A Well, this question goes too far. I don't know.
Q How about the income to the SS, the dues of the SS members, subscriptions, and donations from members of the FM and other sources of income? Where was that handled? You must have kept some record of that.
A Well, contributions in the Reich budget did not come to my knowledge.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q They weren't handled by A? Not contributions to the Reich budget; contributions by FM members, subscribers to the SS, and dues paid to the SS. Weren't they handled by Amtsgruppe A?
A As far as I can recall there were no membership contributions anymore from members who continued to contribute. This was a Party matter, and this was completely discontinued. I believe this was done by an express order from the Reich Treasury.
Q Did Amtsgruppe A handle any income of the SS during May 1944 and later?
A Well, if this income was an income of the Reich, then it would have been possible that income of the Reich was submitted there. As is done with every Treasury of the Reich, we had a special title for that in the war budget. It was an income title for income of the Reich.
Q Now, that was handled by A. What office in A?
A That was done in all treasuries, not only in A. A itself did not have its own treasury but it had a treasury of the WVHA, or it had a house treasury or Reich treasury. That was not only the case in the WVHA; that was the case with all treasuries, also in the army.
Q Let's take a case of income to the SS from the use of concentration camp inmates who were assigned to private industry or to the SS industries under Amtsgruppe W. These funds were handled by Amtsgruppe A, weren't they?
A No, they were paid to the competent treasuries and accounted for there. However, I don't know exactly how the details were handled.
Q You should have listened more carefully to your colleague Frank's testimony because he explained that these were handled by Amtsgruppe A.
A Pardon, but then I would only repeat what I have already heard here. After all, I am to tell you of the knowledge which I had at the time.
Q Now, let's turn for a moment to another subject. Some Court No. II, Case No. 4.administrative leaders in the concentration camps were named by you, were they not; designated by you?
A Well, they were furnished by me.
Q You sent Burger out to Auschwitz around 1943 as an administrative officer in Auschwitz, didn't you?
A I don't know anything about that. I believe he was already at Auschwitz when I came.
Q You don't remember sending him to Auschwitz? You don't remember signing the order sending him there?
A It may be possible; but I assume that he had already been sent there at an earlier period of time. However, it is quite possible that this was done on my orders in this individual case. With these 2,800 or 2,500 people, I really can't recall in detail whom I sent; but it is quite possible.
Q Wasn't this actually a function of Office A V/4?
A No.
Q What office under A V handled this matter?
A A V/2.
Q Now, if someone was called back from the Waffen SS, from the front, for example from the Death Head Fighting Division, he was called back to the WVHA for reassignment as an administrative officer in the concentration camp, this would be handled in A V/2? Is that right?
A Well, it doesn't matter from what unit in the field he came. That applied to all units in the field. Later on they had no Death Head units anymore; but we had a Death Head Division. After the beginning of the war the Death Head unit was designated as the Death Head Division, just like any other division, the Viking Division, or the Division Reich. This applied to all divisions.
Q Now, what type of officer did Harbaum as Gluecks adjutant assign to the concentration camps? These were non-commissioned officers and enlisted men, were they not?
A Yes, I don't know where these people came from individually. I have already stated that this was a special branch, and in the personnel main office it was treated as a special branch; that included everybody that had worked in the inspecting system of the concentration camps, guard, and so on.
Q Now, for just a moment I would like to direct your attention to the Verwaltungsamt SS, which you discussed briefly on direct examination. You became chief of Office V-1, which was budget, in 1937, did you not?
A I beg your pardon; that was in 1938.
Q 1938? I believe Frank told us it was in 1937? was he wrong in that respect?
A I don't know that he made a statement of that sort; I believe that he said 1938, and that is correct.
Q What month in 1938; do you recall?
A It took me about six to eight weeks until I got used to the work; it was in January and February, and effective the first of March, I was then assigned to the special duty squad.
Q And how long were you - for what period of time were you chief of V-1?
A Until the middle of June, 1938. However, a difference must be made here; I was the V-1, for Victory 1, of the special duty squad, and I had to deal with the budget of the special duty unit.
Q Did you carry out the same activity as chief of V-1 as Frank had performed, in that same capacity as you heard his description of it?
A Yes, within the special duty unit.
Q And you prepared the budget there for the SS?
A Well, there were several branches of the SS; there was also a branch TV and concentration camps, and I prepared the budget VT that budget had already been compiled when I came. When I prepared the new budget it was in the fall of 1938 when I was administrative officer. At that time I prepared the new budget for 1939. The budget for 1938 had already been compiled and completed.
Q And you prepared the budget for 1939?
A Yes.
Q Well, Frank told us that the office of V-1 took case of the budget for the Death Head units and the concentration camps, and that came within his sphere of tasks as chief of V-1. When you succeeded him in that position, you also succeeded to those duties, did you not?
A No. This must either be a mistake here in the record because a certain Kaindl was there before me, and he had already become chief of Eicke before I ever entered the administrative main office. He worked on the budgets, the TV and KL.
Q Frank said this: "In 1936 the budget of the Death Head units and the concentration camps came into the sphere of the task of V-1." I am reading from his testimony. "It was formulated so that it would be correct ministerially speaking, certain bureaucratic traditions had to be observed; it was re-changed into a ministerial document and then submitted to the Ministry of Interior," and then he told us that the Reich Ministry of Interior passed it on to the Reich Ministry of Finance; don't you remember that?
A Yes; it may have been possible that Frank carried out these negotiations, but I myself did not participate in them. I worked on the budget for the special units.
Q He carried them out as chief of V-1, but when you became chief of V-1 they disappeared; is that right?
A I have already stated that I did not compile the budget, and that at my time the budget discussions had already taken place.
Q You told us
A I myself worked on the VT budget and I myself became the administrative officer of the VT.
Q You didn't have anything whatever to do with the budget of the Death Head units, the TV or the concentration camps?
A Something may have passed through my hands, but I can't recall anything in detail. It is possible that by order of Frank, who remained there, and I was told that these central matters would be handled by Frank in his capacity as Stabsfuehrer because I was new in that position; I didn't know the work, and it was my task to take over the administration of the special units, the special duty squad.
Q It was your task to take over the office V-1, wasn't it; you were chief of the office?
A Yes.
Q Prior to May, 1944, how often did you confer with the defendant Pohl?
A I may have seen him daily; I don't know that exactly. It depended upon the fact that I was very much in his vicinity.
Q And after May, 1944, did that relationship continue?
A I would see him once or twice within a two week period; then, again I wouldn't see him for about three weeks. It was just like one of the office chiefs of the Amtsgruppen; it depended upon the work which I had accumulated, and about which I had to have the discussion.
Q And all the other office chiefs conferred with him about the same amount; is that right?
A I can't judge that at all. We had to have ourselves announced first at the adjutant's office by telephone, and then we asked if the chief would be there and can I have a discussion with him; then he would ask me how much time do you need; I would say fifteen minutes, or thirty minutes, forty-five minutes; we would give the approximate time which we required to in order to carry out our business.
Q After May, 1944, did your visits with Pohl increase or decrease?
A I believe the number of visits to Pohl remained the same. I can't say any more today whether in the month of May I paid so many visits to him, and so I am really unable to give you any information about that any more.
Q How often did you confer with the defendant Frank?
A Sometimes it may have been two or three times a week, and then I may have only seen him once in a two week period. I can't say that exactly any more today.
Q How often did you confer with the defendant Vogt, V-o-g-t? And confine yourself to the period before May, 1944.
A It is absolutely impossible for me to make any statement about it. In any case, I only saw him on very rare occasions; and at this time may have discussed personnel matters.
Q How often did you confer with Hans Loerner?
A The personnel matters had very little to do with him, because he never had much personnel under him, even at an earlier time.
Q How often did you confer with Melmer in A-III?
A Perhaps two or three times. However, my secretary would deal with monetary matters most of the time. I personally never collected the expenses which arose from my trips; my secretary did all that sort of work.
Q Witness, will you tell us what the last orders were that you gave as chief of "A"?
A The last orders were the evacuation of the agency and its discontinuance.
Q Did you give any instructions to any one for the destruction of correspondence, or files, or documents?
A Yes, that was a general military order. All military agencies had to comply with this order, and this was done in every war; and this was done in all units.
Q What were the instructions that you gave?
A I can't recall the details any more today. These files were to be burned or destroyed, and this applied for all files; it also applied to all agencies. I received this order in writing from the personnel main office, and also orally.
Q I have one last question. Is it true that, as Frank said, that you and he were disappointed in the SS; that you didn't see what you expected to see?
A Yes, especially during the last two years of the war we were disappointed about many of the high leaders, and many of the ideas; and we were very disappointed also about their manner of living.
We discussed these things very often and criticized them; and this was not only criticized by Frank and myself.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Do I understand you to say that you were disappointed because they were not carrying the war to victory, but that you were satisfied when you were triumphant?
A No. We referred to the personal attitude and the personal behavior which became known to us. We heard about persons which diverted from the ideals of which we had thought of before.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: If you go back two years from May 1945, you find yourself in the spring of 1943, so you had all of 1942 and 1941 before that, and 1940 also, and were not these leaders carrying on in the same manner in those years as they were in 1944 and 1945?
A. I had very little contact with higher leaders at that time because of my grade and position, so that I was unable to form a picture of it at that time. After all, I did not know them before at all.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And you intend to convey to us this thought: That it was only during the last two years of the war that you got to know their real character; is that what we are to understand?
A. Well, this referred only to certain individuals. There were very few of them of whom I found out all of these things.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Who were these individuals that you found out?
A. Well, I request that I be permitted not to make any statement about that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, you were a brigadier general prior to December 1943, were you not?
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In December 1943 you were made a major general in the Waffen SS?
A. That was in 1944.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 1944. Now, this organization, the WVHA, was a right large organization, was it not?
A. It was a very complicated organization.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And in it you had Pohl as the chief?
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And then Amtsgruppen A, B,C,D, W, and Staff W, all under the one head?
A. All of these things were subordinated to Pohl. Pohl had several special assignments.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then in this organization with these various branches of the organization, you had a number of fields of tasks?
A. I?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The organization had.
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now, what method or means of coordination did the chiefs of the Amtsgruppen and the chiefs of the various offices in the Amtsgruppen have between each other for the purpose of carrying out the work to be done by the WVHA?
A. Perhaps it could be explained in the following: If something happened in Amtsgruppe A, then this went from the Office Chief to the Chief of the Amtsgruppen, and if it concerned another chief of an Amtsgruppe and if it was something of a fundamental nature, then it was routed through Pohl, and in internal matters, if it was an individual task, discussions were held about it, and if it was not very important --
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I want to get right there at the discussions. Did you ever have any conferences with the chiefs of the various Amtsgruppen in regard to the tasks and how the coordination between the various Amtsgruppen would be handled? Did you ever have any conferences along that line?
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: About how often would you have those conferences?
A. There were either one or two. I am certain that one of them took place.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In those conferences you coordinated your fields of tasks and the duties and responsibilities of the various Amtsgruppen and their relationship to each other, did you not?
A. No, Your Honor, I was referring to the Unruh Action. It was the examination of the individual offices as to the numbers that they had furnished for military service. That was a general order with regard to the reduction in personnel, with exact time limits and the exact regulations.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, if you never had any conferences between the leaders of the various organizations, how did you operate? How did you know what each branch was doing and how they were doing their work and how it affected the others?
A. I did not know that. I did not know what effect it had on the other offices and what they were doing. I had nothing to do with that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: So the Tribunal is to understand from your testimony that although all of these Amtsgruppen which were under one organization, the WVHA, that they did not have any coordination among themselves, but operated as single, individual units, responsible to nobody except Pohl?
A. The office chiefs were subordinated the Chief of the Amtsgruppe.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I am talking about work. You had not coordination in the work of the various offices, but they were each independent of the other and were subordinated to Pohl; is that what you mean for us to understand?
A. Well, Your Honor, their work was separated. They were completely divided, and they also had special designations. I was never an expert in C or D.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Of course they were separate, but they were working under one organization, and their fields of tasks overlapped and had to be coordinated with each other to carry out the work.
A. Well, the same plan existed as in the army administration, the construction system, the clothing for the troops, the troop administration, economic matters, agriculture, mail service.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Don't you think that the branch who had charge of the finances would have to know something about the food and clothing because they had to pay for them? Don't you think that the manufacturers the ones who had the plants under the Staff W, would have to know something about the labor and the labor allocations?
A. Well, in peacetime the individual had to be much better oriented with regard to the budget and funds because an exact accounting had to be given for everything that was spent at the time. I can only say how it was in my office in peace time. There it was exactly limited. Written requests had to be made from one field to another. The exact reasons had to be given, just how much the construction expenses would amount to.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Whether they had conferences or not, there had to be some method of coordination between various groups to carry out the tasks which they were assigned to perform. Now, if they did not have conferences, what method of coordination did they have among the various branches of the WVHA?
A. I beg your pardon, Your Honor, I can speak only of the coordination in one big field of work. It never happened for example that I ever attended a single conference or discussion of W whenever they discussed these matters. It never happened in the case of D. It never happened in the case of C, or in the case of D. It was possible that I attended a conference with one chief of an office.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The Tribunal will have to find out the best it can how they coordinated. We know they had to coordinate in some way. That is all.
A. I beg your pardon, Your Honor, I could not make any other statement. I only state to you exactly what happened in my case and how it was in my office.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. Witness, I only want to ask you one general question. You told us this morning that Himmler was in favor of illegitimate children.
A. No, I did not say that.
Q. I believe that I can recall the statement.
A. That must have been a mistake on your part. I said that this order or this view of Himmler's was generally known and that we would discuss this in our family circles, especially those of us who were married, and we usually criticized it.
Q. Well, witness, you would have had the order to obey.
A. Yes, as a soldier.
Q. Why were you opposed to this view of Himmler's? Witness, I am quite serious about this.
A. I was not of the opinion that I was ordered to do this.
Q. But you told us that it was the view of Himmler.
A. Yes, but it is not my fault that he is of another opinion.
Q. Witness, that is my question. Wasn't it, therefore, true that all these views, in particular the derogatory views which you had, that these views were views that were complied with by the SS men but that it always depended on the individual?
A. Well, nobody had to right to interfere in such private matters, and this could not be understood as an order. I don't think that anybody understood it to be an order.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, this is a new idea. You have come around to the belief that the head of the State did not have the right to interfere in some private matters. Are you convinced of that now?
A. Yes.
Q. What about the equally private matter of marriage? Do you now think the State had no right to interfere with that?
A. Well, nobody can give me an order when or whom I am supposed to marry.
Q. No, but they could put you in prison if you married a person they did not want you to. That happened in your family, didn't it?
A. Yes. These things were unjust. I considered them to be unjust, and I have proved it by the fact that I myself appeared as the best man in the wedding.
Q. It is a good thing Himmler didn't know that. Well, then, you think now at long last that there are some things in men's lives that the State has no right to interfere with?
A. Today I have a completely different point of view in a political sense than I had then as a young man, and I shall teach my children a different ideology in this field.
Q. Do you think a man has perhaps a right to his own opinion nowadays, without being imprisoned?
A. I can not judge it in every case now what the political situation is on the outside. I have had far too little insight into that in the last two years. Many changes have taken place; I realize that.
Q. I still want to find out one thing. Do you think today that a man ought to be put in prison because of the particular opinion that he holds on religion, marriage, politics?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No, unfortunately by things like that, the will of the people is silented. These are the disadvantages that in the time, in 1931 and 1932, during the development, we could not realize the true faiths of our ideology. We failed to recognize them.
Q The important thing is, have you learned anything since 1931 about these facts?
A Yes, I have learned to open my eyes.
Q How many of your fellow citizens do you think have opened their eyes? You don't know that, do you?
THE INTERPRETER: I can't translate it at all.
THE PRESIDENT: No one can.
A Well, many millions have, all those who have lost their country, their home.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, as Office Chief in Amtsgruppe A, to whom were you responsible at that time?
A To the Chief of the Amtsgruppe.
Q And to whom was the Chief of the Amtsgruppe responsible?
A He was responsible to the Chief of the Main Office.
Q In Amtsgruppe "B" for beggar, was the same procedure followed?
A Yes.
Q The Office Chief was responsible to the Chief of the Amtsgruppe, and the Chief of the Amtsgruppe was responsible to Pohl?
A Yes.
Q And was exactly the same procedure followed in the other amtsgruppen?
A "C", yes, and "D" for dog, yes, probably also. Well, Pohl himself was the Chief of the Amtsgruppe there.
Q And that was in the case of "W" for William. Please tell me, did the fields of work of A, B, C for Charlie, and D have any contact with each other?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No. It can be seen from the organizational chart which contains all the tasks.
Q Well then, you can divide the tasks into twenty different branches. In the WVHA can we speak of a uniform authority in the sense in which it is usually used?
A No. There were different law conditions too. Let's take the Sector W. Only Pohl had any authority there as an economist, as a trustee. However, in military things it was exactly like the Chief of the Army Administrative Office. He and the different branches were channeled together just like in the case of the Army Corps Area.
Q You say that the tasks of the WVHA were not of a uniform nature?
A No, at least they were of three different natures. If I would want to divide them any further we have military administration.
Q Was, therefore, a collaboration between the office groups necessary in order to carry out the work in every individual amtsgruppe?
A No, only insofar -- I can only judge that from my position in the army administration as far as monetary matters were concerned, for in A, B and C these matters were handled between these offices, but this was only done for property.
Q You are talking about three different tasks. Well, from the point of view of the work, therefore, the WVHA could be divided into three offices?
A Yes.
Q And they actually should be independent authorities, is that correct?
A Yes. However, now I am speaking of the whole WVHA. That is, if you take the additional assignment of Pohl with regard to the inspectorate of the concentration camps then there are four.
Q You mean the four authorities which actually dealt with completely different tasks, which were independent authorities?
A Yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q And why was all this consolidated into one office?
A I have stated already that I can only tell of how it appeared to me at the time. Because Pohl had the utmost variety of tasks he organized them according to the organizational chart, and he united all these things in his person.
Q You heard Pohl say that tasks were handled by at least four different authorities, and that they were only consolidated because accidentally all these assignments were concentrated on Pohl?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q However, there was no connection between the actual work?
A Not within these four branches, but they were only consolidated because Pohl was in charge of them.
Q Now, one would think that this is contrary to the question of the supply of funds. Now, I might ask you one additional question. I believe that there are still certain doubts on this subject, who carried out the payment for the WVHA?
A For the WVHA? That was the Reichsbank, The Reich Main Treasury, or the Reich Ministry of Finance.
Q No, I mean within the WVHA. Didn't you have a pay agency?
A You mean the house treasury. Well, I have already mentioned it.
Q Now, let me ask you a question. I want to clarify this point. You say the house treasury?
A Yes.
Q Where did your house treasury belong?
A It belonged to the house commander. It was under Pohl as it is listed in the chart.
Q However, it has not been mentioned here.
A No, only the house commander appears in the organizational chart.
Q That is in the big chart, NO-111?