A. It must have been roughly in the spring of 1944 when the contact decreased so completely, especially when Fanslau started. There were personal contacts in as much as the police - that part of the police which is housed in barracks - had trained its administrative officers on the same principles as the Waffen SS. In that respect alone there remained contact between Fanslau and myself, quite generally. That is to say, we would always discuss questions of training. He, very frequently, helped me out with teachers and school books, and so forth, and I, in turn, gave him advise concerning the training of his officers.
Q. And those functions continued even after Fanslau became office chief? Did I understand you correctly?
A. Those functions? Yes.
Q. You were a member of the NSDAP, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall what date you joined the Party?
A. On 1 January 1933.
Q. Do you remember your Party number?
A. My number was one million and some. I believe, 1,780,000, or something like that.
Q. You joined the SS in May 1932 and -
A. On 1 May 1932.
Q. And you became a full-time SS man in April 1933, is that correct?
A. Yes, Indeed.
Q. You made application for that position?
A. I did not apply in writing. I went there and volunteered.
Q. You were not drafted into that position?
A. No. No. No, I volunteered.
Q. And at that time you were assigned to the Vervaltungsamt-SS, is that correct -- in April 1933?
A. Yes, on 1 April 1933.
Q. 1934 or 1933?
A. 1934, I am so sorry, 1933, of course, 1933.
Q. Was Pohl a member of the Verwaltungsant at that time?
A. No.
Q. And you preceded Pohl as a member of the Verwaltungsamt?
A. Yes.
Q. You then are the oldest administrative SS official among the defendants, are you not?
A. I am not quite sure about that, if I am the oldest. Some of my comrades perhaps joined at the same time as I.
Q. Do you remember which ones?
A. I believe my comrade, Georg Loerner joined at the same time with me and became a full-time SS man. Our official position was very small at that time. We were paid two Marks a day.
Q. I would like to get a brief description of the Verwaltungsamt. I think up to this point the picture is not very clear on the record. The Verwaltungsamt was divided into five departments, was it not, V-I, V-II, V-III, V-IV, and V-V.
A. At what time do you mean sir?
Q. 1934. I believe V-V was not a separate Amt. at that time. There was V-I through V-IV --- 1934?
A. Yes, I think that is what we called it at the time.
Q. Now, V-I, was your Amt. was it not?
A. Yes, I was that myself.
Q. That was concerned with budgetary matters and I think you described that in sufficient detail. The Defendant Fanslau was also connected with that Amt., was he not?
A. Later on.
Q. What date?
A. I believe that was in 1937 or 1938.
Q. And in what connection was he a member of V-I. What were his duties? What was his official position? Was he Chief of that Amt?
A. I believe that the extent of this office is being misjudged.
Q. Excuse me. I think you have described the functions very well of the office last week. Now I am only asking you what official position in that Amt. did Fanslau hold, this is V-I of the Verwaltungsamt SS.
A. He was a Main Department Chief.
Q. Now do you recall what V-II did? That was concerned with auditing, was it not?
A. Yes, as the word says, that office at that time, V-II, took care of the auditing for what we called the Special Task Troops, the Verfuegungstruppe, and also for Party expenses.
Q. And the Chief of that office was Vogt, V-o-g-t?
A. Vogt came very much later.
Q. On what date?
A. In 1937, he came as an assistant official, not as a chief.
Q. He was never Chief of V-II?
A. Not before the war, as far as I know.
Q. And V-III, that was concerned with clothing and equipment, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And Georg Loerner was the Chief of this Amt?
A. He was Chief of that Main Office, yes.
Q. And V-IV, do you recall that a person by the name of Koeberlein was in charge of this Amt?
A. Koeberlein, yes.
Q. And do you recall at what date the office, V-V, Building Matters, was established in the Verwaltungsamt-SS?
A. That must have been in 1935, after the Special Task Troops had become active.
Q. I think you told us that Hans Loerner joined the administrative organization at an early date. Was he a member of the Verwaltungsamt-SS?
A. He was a member of the administrative office of the SS Main Sector of Munich and later on of Nurnberg. In Nurnberg he stayed until the outbreak of the war. These SS Main Sectors, these administrations were the administrative authority immediately below the Administrative Office. Their competence was a provincial one.
Q. And the Office, V-V, that I have just mentioned, that was headed by the Defendant Eirenschmalz?
A. For a certain period of time, yes. As I said before, he quarreled with Pohl and had to retire for a long time.
Q. When the Construction Office of the WVHA, Amtsgruppe C, was established, the Defendant Eirenschmalz was Chief of that office for a time, was he not?
A. Chief of Office C-VI?
Q. No, "C", of the entire Amtsgruppe.
A. That he was never. He was never Chief of that. He was only Deputy Chief on paper. He was never Chief, I am sure. That was always Kammler.
Q. Do you not recall telling your interrogator at an interrogation that Eirenschmalz was at one time Chief of Amtsgruppe C, that he preceded Kammler?
A. No, not of Office Group C of the WVHA, because at that time it was not called Office Group C; it was entirely differently organized at that time.
Q. He was Chief of the Construction Office of the Main Office, Building and Construction, was he not?
A. No, it is impossible that he was that, because at that time he was with me and with me he was in charge of V-V, that is to say, the administration of the construction of the Waffen-SS.
Q. Will you tell us what you meant when you said that Eirenschmalz was Chief of the Construction Office and preceded Kammler in that position?
A. I must have made a mistake there; Eirenschmalz, or, I am sorry, Kammler, was there at a time when the WVHA was founded. Therefore, it's impossible for Standartenfuehrer Eirenschmaltz to have been chief in the presence, as it were, of Oberfuehrer Kammler. I must have made a mistake in my interrogation at that time, because Eirenschmatz was Chief of the Main Department V-V, in my office. I do not know how that error came about.
Q. Turning to another matter now, Witness, do you have Book XVII in front of you there?
A. I haven't got Book XVII with me here. No, I am afraid I have not got it.
Q. I think I can read this to you. It is quite short. Do you recall the document which is Klein's report to Pohl, made on the 14th day of May, 1942, concerning Wewelsburg and the financial situation there and Klein's statement that the money needed was supplied by an interim credit of 200,000 Reichsmarks by SS-Brigadefuehrer Frank?
A. I cannot recall this fact at all today. I would admit it at once and I do admit, because it must have been an interim credit of 200,000 Marks which I had asked for until the credit negotiations of Wewelsburg and Klein had come to a result with the Reichsbank, but I am unable to say today whether these 200,000 Marks were paid back immediately, or whether it was left open for a period of time. I am quite unable to say anything about that.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You recall seeing the reference in the document, Document NO-547? You don't recall seeing the document in Court in the document books?
A I don't know which document you mean, 547. What document book is it in?
Q It's in Book 17 and it contains what I just read to you. You don't recall reading that in the document books here in Court?
A No, I didn't take any notice of it, at all.
Q While you were the deputy to Pohl, can you give us some idea of how often you conferred with him?
A That was quite irregular. Sometimes there were six or eight weeks intervals until we saw each other again, and sometimes we'd meet twice a week. That depended entirely on the tasks which reached me concerning difficulties in financing the troops. In most cases I discussed personnel questions with Pohl because that was our biggest worry.
Q Did you ever discuss the question of labor allocation with him?
A No, I had nothing to do with that labor allocation.
Q As his deputy you never talked to him; you never had one single conversation about allocation of inmate labor?
A I know that it sounds improbable, but what useful purpose would have been served by a conference? After all, labor allocation-
Q Excuse me. I just asked you the question. You can answer it yes or no; and you've answered it no. Did you ever at any time talk to him about food for concentration camp inmates?
A No, I had no reason to do that.
Q Did you ever talk to him about the number of inmates in concentration camps?
A I was not informed about the number of inmates.
Q You weren't interested as his deputy in any of these problems about labor of inmates or the food that they got and the Court No. II, Case No. 4.number of inmates in camps?
You had no interest in these matters?
A I was not his deputy in these matters.
Q Did you ever discuss the so-called wages for inmates with Pohl?
A That is a question in which I was interested from the point of view of the budget; and I believe that I must have discussed it with Pohl.
Q Do you remember discussing it with Pohl?
A Yes.
Q What did you talk to him about? What was the substance of the conversations?
A The Reich Minister of Finance insisted at that time, in 1942, that for each inmate who would be working, no matter whether in private industry or in the SS industry, he would be paid back a sum of money which roughly corresponded to his expenses for billets, feeding, and clothing of the inmates.
Q Were such charges made for the use of inmate labor? Were such so-called wages charged for the use of inmate labor?
A The question of whether the inmates themselves were paid was not with me. I could not decide that question.
Q You don't understand the question. I didn't ask you about what the inmates received. There was a charge made to the SS industries and to private films for the use of inmate labor, and this was euphemistically called "wages". It was turned over to the WVHA and ultimately to the Reich. Now, I'm asking you, who in the WVHA handled these funds?
A The term "wages" was not mentioned in this connection. As far as Office Group W is concerned, what is received from the industries for the inmates and the charge it made for the inmates was not my business as a man under the Reich. All I had to do was to see to it that a certain sum of money would be transferred to the Reich for the inmates.
Q And that was your business?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes, because the Reich spent money on the inmates, which is quite clear.
Q Which of your subordinates in Amtsgruppe A assisted you in this task?
A I didn't need any assistance there. That question I discussed myself because I myself had been ordered by the Reich Ministry of Finance to deal with these things; and this request by the Reich Ministry of Finance was well executed by me.
Q Didn't Vogt make any check on this whatever?
A Vogt only had the task of finding out the sums which were in the Treasury for these charges and put them on the annual balance sheet together with A-II.
Q Now, you were just speaking about the SS industries, who had the same position with regard to private industries. Who handled the funds which constituted the charges made for use of inmate labor in private industries? Was this handled in the same way?
A I should like to give you a small example here, if I may. A concentration camp lent people to an aircraft factory. The officer in charge of labor allocation in the concentration camp concerned kept a list of figures of the inmates and the working hours. Previous to that he negotiated with the aircraft factory as to how much would have to be paid for each individual inmate. At the end of the month the officer in charge of labor allocation would send his list about the figures of inmates and the wages agreed on, also on the agreed compensation, to the administrative officer of the concentration camp. The administrative officer in turn sent a bill to the aircraft factory. The aircraft factory paid the bill, and the money went to the Reich treasury.
Q When you say this was handled by the labor allocation officer, you are referring to a person under the supervision of Amtsgruppe D?
A Quite so.
Q And that specifically refers to Amtsgruppe D-II; is that Court No. II, Case No. 4.correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what function the defendant Sommer played in this procedure?
A No, I didn't know Sommer at all. I met him only here in Nurnberg.
Q Did you ever discuss with Pohl the question of construction on the matters dealt with by Amtsgruppe C?
A No.
Q In any case at all, in the case of any construction, after you became Chief of Amtsgruppe A, were you notified about construction matters that were carried on by Amtsgruppe C?
A Yes, I was informed in advance if they were exceptionally large building projects. That was the case when I drew up the budget for 1943 in 1942. In that budget from my point of view there were for the first and last time negotiations with the Reich Ministry of Finance about large building projects. That happened in the following manner-that the Reich Building Office, which was a sub-department in the Reich Ministry of Finance, through me sent the request that I should be told what large building project the SS planned for the coming year. That request I passed on to Kammler and asked Kammler to deal directly with the Chief of the Reich Building Office, who was Secret-Councillor Reichner.
Q While you were Chief of Amtsgruppe A, there were some rather large construction projects carried out in concentration camps; several concentration camps were built. Did you receive notification of this?
AAs I have told you before, Kammler negotiated directly with the Reich Building Office. As far as the concentration camps were concerned, it was a very peculiar state of affairs. In my opinion these were not large building projects in the way I have described it before. By large building projects the Reich Ministry of Finance meant Court No. II, Case No. 4.such buildings which were being erected massively, on land belonging to the Reich.
The Reich Ministry of Finance was interested in this only because these buildings survived the war, whereas the Reich Building Office or the Reich Ministry of Finance were not interested in barracks-and ninety-nine per cent of all buildings were barracks in wartime--or in smaller buildings below half a million.
Q During your period of office some large construction projects were carried out at Dachau in the form of construction of crematoriums and gas chambers. Did you know anything about this?
A I did not know that there was a gas chamber in Dachau. I say that with the best conscience. That a crematorium existed I did not know. Had I known it, I should not have been surprised because a camp of the size of Dachau - where was it to have sent its dead--and in a city of forty or fifty thousand men there are always some dead. The city or town of Dachau is a very small little place inhabited by about two thousand men.
Q That is enough. Also during your period of office, large construction projects were carried out at Nordhausen and Bergen-Belsen. Did you know anything about this?
A Nordhausen was at a time when I was no longer with the WVHA; but I am quite convinced that construction was not financed by the WVHA. It must have been financed by the special budget at the disposal of Kammler on the basis of a special order from the Fuehrer directly.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess, Mr. Robbins.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, did you know anything about the construction projects that were being carried out at Bergen-Belsen in 1943?
A. I saw in the papers in 1945 for the first time that the concentration camp by the name of Bergen-Belsen existed.
Q. And you didn't know about it while you were chief of Amtsgruppe A?
A. No, I never heard anything about Bergen-Belsen.
Q. Did you ever talk to the defendant Pohl about medical experiments?
A. I can't recall that at all.
Q. Will you tell us if you ever, while you were a member of the WVHA, visited a concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell us when and where?
A. I visited the concentration camp Auschwitz in the spring of 1942. The occasion for my doing this was the following: A letter came from Auschwitz stating that the agricultural expert from Auschwitz was going to deduct large amounts of money from Reich funds and that the administration maintained the point of view that the agricultural special assignments and tasks had nothing whatsoever to do with the concentration camp. Since I was taking a trip to Cracow anyhow, I also passed through Auschwitz. I arrived there around noontime and I had a discussion there. At five o'clock in the evening I continued my trip to Cracow. I can still remember all the details so precisely because I had a bad flat tire with my car between Auschwitz and Cracow and I was on the road until twelve o'clock at night.
Q. Were you taken on a tour of the concentration camp?
A. Are you now referring to this particular case or do you mean in general?
Q. There at Auschwitz.
A. No, I didn't have the time to do that. I had to inspect the agricultural facilities there. My special task was caused by the fact that Himmler had ordered that in Auschwitz a so-called Russian rubberproducing plant, Kok Radis, was to be cultivated. The agricultural expert there told me that this project required an amount of at least two and a half million marks.
Q. Is that the only time you have ever visited a concentration camp?
A. No, I visited the concentration camp Oranienburg. I have to say that in order to comply with the truth. I visited Oranienburg together with Reichsfuehrer Himmler in person. It was on a special occasion.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's get him in or out of Auschwitz. Did he ever see it? We left him with a flat tire on the street. I don't know whether he ever got in the camp or not.
MR. ROBBINS: I am sorry, Your Honor. Will you answer?
THE WITNESS: The agricultural facilities, Your Honor, consisted of a big farm, and there was also a big laboratory for these rubberproducing plants. I inspected the laboratory as well as the farm. Both of them were located outside of the actual concentration camp.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did you get in the concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go in where the men slept, where the inmates slept?
A. No, not there. This had nothing to do with me and I didn't see that. I was in the administration and above all I visited the administrative offices of the agriculture. They were located within the concentration camp. However, they were not within the area where the barracks were located where the inmates slept. That part was completely separated.
Q. Did you see any of the inmates?
A. Certainly, yes.
Q. What were they doing?
A. When I left the place at five o'clock in the evening, I saw how the working detachments were coming back from the fields in columns and they were also returning from the work on the roads. They marched in big columns and there were several thousand men in them.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I have already stated, Your Honor, that I arrived there at noon. I left Berlin at seven o'clock in the morning by car, arrived at Auschwitz towards noon. I ate in the officers mess. Then I held my conferences there. I inspected the places which I have just described and at five o'clock in the afternoon I continued my trip to Cracow.
Q. Then you were there from noon until five o'clock.
A. Quite correct.
Q. You had one meal there at the officers mess?
A. Yes.
Q. But you were not taken on a tour of inspection of the camp proper where the men lived?
A. There was no time to do that.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, now. On to Oranienburg.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. While you were at Auschwitz did you make any inspection at all of the food or the clothing which the inmates received?
A. No, that was none of my business at all.
Q. Well, excuse me. You say that was none of your business at all. You were the deputy of Pohl, the deputy of the chief of the WVHA, and it was Pohl's business. Did it ever occur to you to look into these matters?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, if throughout the year I had nothing to do with clothing and food supplies as far as concentration camps were concerned, then of course it would be absurd for me if in this case I came to a camp and if I looked after food and clothing there. After all, I didn't have the slightest idea what was going on with regard to these subjects. If, for example, the administrative officer had asked me, "We have too little clothing," then I would have to tell him, "Well, my friend, I can't help it.
I don't know anything about it."
Q. You could have reported it to Pohl as his deputy, couldn't you? Couldn't you have done that if he had told you that?
A. If he had expressly requested that I should tell Pohl that there was insufficient clothing there, then of course I would have done it. However, I want to emphasize that at the time I did not go by myself. I was behind Pohl's car because my driver didn't know the way. Pohl remained at Auschwitz and I continued my trip to Cracow. Why should I have worried about all these matters if Pohl himself was there?
Q. On any of these tours of concentration camps, if it had come to your attention by any way that the food or the clothing was insufficient, without a special request from the camp commandant would you have made any report to Pohl?
A. This question is very theoretical. In the military service it is not customary that an administrative officer complain, to me, for example. In this case he would not have gone through his regular channels. He knew exactly that if he told me something of that sort and if I had told Pohl about it, then he certainly would have been told off by his administrative chief, that is Amtsgruppe D, and his superior would have been justified in saying, "Why do you tell these things to Gruppenfuehrer Frank and not to me first if you have any complaints to make?"
Q. Then your answer is no, you would not have made a report to Pohl?
A. No, I'm not saying that at all. Excuse me. If the administrative leader, in spite of all this, had pointed out the fact to me and had told me, "Gruppenfuehrer, I ask you to tell Pohl that there is not sufficient food here," then of course I would have told Pohl about it just like I promised, but not in my capacity as his deputy but because the administrative officer had requested me to do this. Of course, I would have told Pohl about it, and as far as I was concerned that would have been the end of the matter.
Q. So if there were no requests on the part of the administrative officer, if he told you about it or if you saw it from your own personal observation, would you have reported it to Pohl?
A. This could only have been the case if on the occasion of this visit the inmates would have drawn my attention because the food conditions were particularly bad. However, I did not have that impression. To the contrary, the inmates whom I saw at work in agriculture looked well-nourished.
Q. Excuse me. I am just trying to establish what the usual procedure of reporting things to Pohl was. I am asking you if the administrative officer of the camp told you that food and clothing were insufficient but did not make a request that you pass on the information to Pohl, or if from your own observation you saw that inmates were inadequately cared for, would you have passed this information on to Pohl? Now, that is a question you can answer yes or no.
A. Yes.
Q. You would have. Now tell us about your visit to Oranienburg; when and where and under what conditions.
A In the summer--I must make a correction here. Approximately toward the end of April 1943, my adjutant called me to the telephone. He was very excited. He told me that Himmler's chancellery was calling me on the phone. I went to the phone myself and an adjutant of Himmler was calling and he told me, "Gruppenfuehrer, you are to report to Oranienburg immediately." I asked him what I supposed to be doing there and he told me, I don't know. Himmler has just ordered Pohl to come to Oranienburg and Pohl is not at his office. I cannot find him anywhere. Please go to Oranienburg personally." I told the adjutant that this was nonsense. I said that I had no knowledge at all about Oranienburg and that I was of no use at all to Himmler in this case. I really didn't know what I was supposed to be doing there. The adjutant implored me to go there and he told me that he didn't have any other opportunity to tell Himmler that I would have to go instead of Pohl. I told him, "Very well. I shall go out there and I shall personally apologize to Himmler that the matter didn't work out the way it was desired."
I went to Oranienburg as quickly as I could, at full speed. The Reichsfuehrer was already standing before the gates with a very angry expression on his face when I arrived there. I reported to him. He looked at me and asked me, "What are you doing here."? I told him, "Excuse me Reichsfuehrer, your adjutant called me and he told me to report to you here." "Well, he answered, "what am I supposed to be doing with you? You are of no use to me. Well, since you are here you may as well come along." So I went along behind him.
I must say that the inspection was extremely interesting for me. It was an inspection of the entire camp and it lasted for about two hours. The inmates had found out in no time at all that Himmler was in the camp and it spread like a wildfire. It was a sensation as far as the camp was concerned. If I had not seen it myself, I would not have believed it: just how the inmates crowded around Himmler and how they showed him around every workshop and every office and every barracks.
They crowded around him and they begged him, "Reichsfuehrer release us from this camp. I have done nothing. I don't even know why I am here.
The Reichsfuehrer had some of the most striking prisoners taken before him and he had them introduced to him. The commander who was walking at the right of the Reichsfuehrer, it was Standartenfuehrer Kaindl, had to get the files immediately from the administrative office. I, myself, have heard with my own ears how in at least ten cases, Himmler told his adjutant, "Write down the names, Prisoners such and such. Put the files on my table." And to some prisoners he said: "You are going to be released, if what you have told me is correct. "He talked to the prisoners in the familiar form. He asked the prisoners how they were getting along and he inspected the kitchen. He, himself tried the food there. He actually threatened the cook if he had given anything else than was given to the inmates. The cook actually was hiding behind the stove for fear. I don't think that he was lying to the Reichsfuehrer. It was an inspection the like of which I have never seen before in my life. I don't have the impression that anything was kept from sight.
When he had completed the inspection of the camp, after approximately two hours, the Reichsfuehrer told Standartenfuehrer Kaindl, "Now, take me to the solitary confinement building." After we had arrived there, we saw that it was a building of 150 to 180 meters in length. Himmler told me, "Wait outside," and he himself, entered the building together with the first adjutant and the camp commander. O know exactly that this latest for about an hour and a half because my feet became ice-cold while I was waiting outside. Kaindl came outside at one time and I asked him just how long this was going to take, and he answered me, "Himmler is going to one cell to another, and he is talking to every one of the inmates, and therefore it would last at least for another hour," and that is exactly what happened. Around eleven o'clock, Himmler came outside again and I asked him if he still needed me. He said, "No, you can go away again." I then went to my car and drove home.
That was the inspection which I had made with him, the only time in my life. I have given a true description of it now.
Q About how many inmates were in Oranienburg at this time in April '43?.
A It's very difficult for me to say that from my personal impression; however I think there were approximately 2,500 inmates in the camp at the time but the majority of them had gone out for work.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Do you know whether any of these prisoners whose names Himmler took were released afterwards?
A I asked Kaindl about it, because this had aroused my interest, after approximately eight days had passed. And he told me that up to that time he had only been ordered to release two prisoners. I then didn't follow up this matter any further. I assumed that the files were first being examined. But what is interesting from the human point of view is that Himmler showed a very fatherly interest and attitude towards the inmates, and that the inmates were not afraid of him at all, but they were actually crowding around him.
Q. What was the date of this visit?
A. I can't remember the exact date any more. I think it was in the first days of the month of April.
Q. What year?
A. It was 1943.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Did you make any observations as to the nationality of the prisoners in Oranienburg?
A. Yes, according to their languages, they must have consisted of several nationalities. I saw several Poles-at least, I think they talked Polish--and there were also Jews among them who identified themselves immediately. That was in the workshop. However, I cannot exactly recall where this workshop was located. After all, I had absorbed so many impressions from that one inspection that I actually was tired to death after it was completed.
Q. And Himmler took a fatherly attitude toward the Jews and the Poles in Oranienburg in April 1943?
A. I want to confirm explicitly that I was simply surprised about how Himmler acted there. I cannot say anything but that he was actually merciful to them. I am not interested in telling a different story. I could have said that he was very tough with them, but he was not though with them. He was actually very soft. I can assure you that under oath. I was, myself, very much surprised by it.