Q. You don't exclude the possibility that he did utilize inmate labor?
A. It is possible, but I am not sure whether he actually carried out building.
Q. Do you know whether Kiefer first joined the WVHA?
A. He also came rather late. I don't think he came before 1943 or '44, I am not sure of the date. I do know that he was a comparatively late arrival.
Q. Do you know whether he joined the SS voluntarily?
A. I believe he was transferred to the Waffen-SS by the Luftwaffe. I once saw him in Luftwaffe uniform, and I assumed that Kammler, who know him from the old days, was at the back of his transfer to the Waffen-SS.
Q. Are you sure about that?
A. I believe that is how it was.
Q. I think we need not discuss defendant Eirenschmalz since we have an extensive interrogation as to him.
Will you tell us what the Defendant Sommer had to do in Amtsgruppe D?
A. Yes, Sommer was a collaborator of Maurer's in office D-2, Labor Assignment. He did not appear in the picture as far as I was concerned, and what he did under Maurer I am unable to tell you.
Q. I believe you said yesterday that he was chief deputy in the office--or deputy of the office. Which was it?
A. I said yesterday that I have seen no evidence that Sommer was deputy office chief. I doubt that also, because he-
Q Excuse me. I didn't ask for that. I only asked was he chief in the office or Chief of the Office. Yesterday you said he was one but not the other. Which was it?
A He was not Chief of Office. He was a collaborator in Office D-II, and, if nobody else was there, he just might have been deputized by the office chief, without being his official deputy.
Q That is not what you told the Tribunal yesterday. You said that he was either Deputy in the office or Deputy of the Office and I am asking you today if you recall which of those two things you claim that he was?
A He was not Deputy Office Chief. He was a deputy in the office as a collaborator.
Q And this was the office that was in charge of allocating inmate labor?
A Yes, quite. Labor allocation.
Q Do you know whether Sommer joined the SS voluntarily?
A No, I don't know. No, I think he was called up because he was relatively young, but I am not sure.
Q Do you know when he joined the WVHA?
A I believe he joined Office Group D in summer, 1942.
Q Had he worked with you prior to that?
A No, I don't know where he came from, where he was before.
Q I would like next to ask you about the Defendant Pook. Do you know what duties he carried out in the WVHA?
A Pook I met for the first time here in Nurnberg and I heard that he was a dentist at Lolling's. I did not know him in Berlin.
Q Do you know the duties of a Chief Dental Officer in the Medical Division of the WVHA?
A No, I am unable to say anything about that.
Q Did you know that Amt D-III had a dental officer?
A I did not know that at all. I heard there were, that Pook was Dental Chief.
Q I would like to ask next about the Defendant Frank. He was your deputy for a time over the entire WVHA, was he not?
A Yes, that is to say, up to when he was ordered away to the Main Office Police and before that I did not have an official deputy. At that time I was represented by the so-called Staff Leader up to 1939; as long as it was an SS Administrative office, the Staff Leader would deputize for me and after that, after 1939 or 1940, Frank, until he was ordered to the Main Office, Main Police, which I think occurred in 1943.
Q He was also chief of Amtsgruppe A as well as your deputy, was he not?
A Yes.
Q Was he ever your deputy in Amtsgruppe W?
A No. He had nothing to do with that.
Q He did precede Georg Loerner in that position?
A No, Frank had nothing to do with Office Group W.
Q Will you tell us very briefly what his duties as Chief of Amtsgruppe A were. Did they differ in any respect from the duties of Fanslau, which you have described?
A No. Fanslau succeeded him and had the same duties.
Q Part of the proof in this case shows that you visited Auschwitz concentration camp with the Defendant Frank in 1943 for an inspection of the I.G. Farben BunaPlants. Do you recall that inspection tour?
A Yes, I believe so.
Q Do you remember what the purpose of the tour was? Do you know the purpose of the inspection tour. Would you recall that today?
A No, I don't recall it very precisely. What the purpose of the trip was. I personally went there to inspect the enterprise, but I don't even know if Frank was with me or not. I am unable to imagine what he would have had to do there. I am not sure about this.
Q I thought you said a moment ago that Frank was with you.
A But I am not quite certain. I can't say with certainty. It is possible that he came down there with me once.
Q And do you recall that Mauer also visited with you on that occasion?
A I am sure that I went to Auschwitz with Mauer on one occasion.
Q Do you recall if the Defendant Frank was with you when you visited with Mauer?
A No, I don't recall that. I am not sure.
Q It is true, is it not, that Frank supplied the funds for various of the SS industries?
A I did not quite understand the question -- that Frank would provide the funds for various SS enterprises?
Q For instance, at Wewelsburg. Perhaps that will refresh your recollection. Do you recall that he arranged for financing of certain institutions at Wewelsburg? You remember that from the documents.
A Frank the Wewelsburg? The Wewelsburg works were financed with the enterprises of Dresdner Bank, Frank had nothing to do with it.
Q Yes, it is true that they were financed through the Dresdner Bank, but on the 14th of May, 1942, Klein, who was in Wewelsburg, according to your testimony, made a report to you, and that is contained in the Document Book as NO-547. It is in Book XVII. It is on page 178 of the English and 176 of the German, and in this report Klein says that since financial help from the Reich Post Ministry will not be possible for some years, the Dresdner Bank, according to the decision of the Chief of the Main Office was ordered to prepare a credit of 9,000,000 Reichsmarks. Do you remember that you yourself carried out that part of the instructions and that you made such instructions?
A Would you please give me once again the number of that document?
Q That is in Book XVII. It's on page 176 of your book. It states that money that was needed in the interim -- in the meantime -- was supplied by a credit of 200,000 Reichsmarks by Brigadefuehrer Frank. This was carried out under your supervision and was referred to you. Do you recall it now?
A I do not find anything about postal credits there. Postal credits were mentioned here before and after 1940, it had -
Q It must be an erroneous translation. Do you have the Document NO-547?
A Yes, I have it of the money needed?
Q Do you see Roman Numeral I?
A Yes.
Q Subparagraph A -- it is right under Roman Numeral I.
A Yes.
Q And under that financial situation the money needed in the meantime was supplied by a credit of 200,000 Marks by Brigadefuehrer Frank.
A It says 12,000,000, 12,000,000 marks.
Q There must be a mistake in my book. Do you recall that this transaction took place?
A Yes, they were, but I don't know if it took place in 1941. This is only an estimate of the money needed for the construction which was to be needed in two years hence, as it says here, because the total credit which the company finally took up amounted to eleven or thirteen millions marks.
Q And this was in connection with the financing of the project at Wewelsburg Concentration Camp, is that correct -- the project under Klein?
A That had actually nothing to do with the financing of Wewelsburg concentration camps, because the funds for the construction of Wewelsburg came from private sources. They were private credits arranged by the Dresdner Bank, whereas the moneys for the construction of the concentration camp came from the Reich and it is possible that the Society for the Preservation of German Culture Monuments -- made an advance here and the Reich paid back later on -
DR. FICHT (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT KLEIN): May it please the court, may I perhaps say a brief words. This is the second report which came later on, but the document consists of two reports and we will see quite clearly from it what it is about.
MR. ROBBINS: I am just trying to refresh the witness' recollection from this page in the document, I don't see that the second report has anything to do with it.
Q At any rate this money was made available to the Defendant Klein, is that true?
A You mean eleven to thirteen million marks? Yes. They were called in slowly by the Dresdner Bank.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions with regard to this subject. This is a convenient time to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 29 May 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 29 May 1947, 0930-1230, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I would like to direct your attention this morning to the subject of Action Reinhardt. (Sound difficulty).
I would like to take up this morning the subject of Action Reinhardt. There are two propositions which I wish to test, and those concern the witness's testimony that he knew nothing about mass murder of Jews before Himmler's speech in October, 1943, and that he did not participate in the murders. And, secondly, that he did not know that the vast amount of valuables which he handled in Action Reinhardt came from murdered Jews. Also, the measures that he took after 1943 in executing Himmler's plan for clearing out and exterminating the Jews.
Before we get into the subject again, witness, I ask you if there are any changes that you would like to make in your prior testimony on these points?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute.
Q. Will you answer my question?
A. As far as my original testimony is concerned, I have nothing to add, and I don't see where I should change it.
Q. The letters which are a part of Exhibits 462, 461, and 460 in the first part of the document book--the letters which are a part of the Exhibits 460, 461 and 462 of the Document Book 18--show that the mass extermination of the Jews was begun at least as early as 1941. Proof shows that much of this mass extermination was carried on in Auschwitz.
Hoess, who was commandant of Auschwitz, says that he gassed 4,000,000 people in that camp. Witness, on the 7th of November 1942, you took steps, did you not, to have this concentration camp at Auschwitz enlarged and expanded?
A. The extension of the concentration camp concerned the establishment of new barracks because they did not have enough living quarters, and in Auschwitz there were constructions carried out every year. I cannot recall that for a special purpose such as extermination of the Jews the camp should have been extended.
Q. Excuse me, I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you took steps in 1942, in November, to have the concentration camp Auschwitz enlarged. Is your answer yes? If it is not, I would refer you to the document which the court discussed with you last week. It is in Book 18 on page 36 of your document book. It is Exhibit 466-PS. This is a letter that you wrote to the Reichsminister of Finance recommending that 4,640 acres be confiscated from Jews, Poles and the Church, and that only racial Germans be paid for the land; and that this was for the enlargement, of the concentration camp at Auschwitz. You recall that, do you not?
A. Yes; that concerns the grounds outside the actual concentration camp.
Q. That is what I asked you. You purchased new property so that the camp itself could be expanded. I was not talking at the moment about crematory or gas chambers. The camp itself was enlarged.
A. No; the camp itself was not enlarged. The actual space of the camp was fixed. What was done there was merely to clear up the communal rights which were involved there. The actual space of the concentration camp was not enlarged.
Q. Well, I will read you the first sentence from your letter and let it speak for itself.
"The Reichsfuehrer of the SS expressed the wish that the territory of Auschwitz concentration camp should be increased to about 4,640 acres to become a private estate to be owned by the Reich."
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Now would you turn to Document Book XX, please. I would like to go through some of these documents for the purpose of testing your testimony that you knew nothing about the extermination of the Jews before October 1943 and I am talking about the extermination in the East -in Auschwitz.
A In October of 1943 the first official communication that reached me was through Himmler's speech. From my own knowledge, previous to that, I knew nothing about this plan.
Q Yes, that is what you told us last week. Now, will you look at the first document in Document Book XX, which is Exhibit 498. This is a letter from Himmler to you and it is dated the 9th of October, 1942. You received this letter, did you not?
A Yes.
Q And Himmler says, "I wish to state the following with reference to the memorandum from the Wehrkreis Commander in the General Government to the OKW, concerning the substitution of Poles for Jewish Labor:
"1. I have given orders that all of the so-called armament workers, are to be gathered together in concentration camps on the spot, that is, in Warsaw, Lublin, and by the SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger and Pohl.
"2. The Jews who are in actual armament firms, that is, in weapon-production shops, motor car work shops, etc., are gradually to be taken out. As the first step, they are all to be in one workshop in each plant. As the second stop in the procedure, the workers of these separate workshops are to be put together, as far as possible, in separate factories through an exchange and so on.
"3. We will then strive to substitute Poles for these Jewish workers, and to reduce most of these Jewish concentration camp factories, to a few large Jewish concentration camp factories, if possible, in the East of the General Government. Of course, there, too, the Jews shall one day disappear, in accordance with the Fuehrer's wishes."
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
That was a letter by Himmler, written to you on the 9th of October, 1942. What did the last sentence of the letter mean to you?
A Well, at that time I could not conclude from that letter that the Jews should be exterminated. At that time it was always said that the Jews should be evacuated to the East and I don't think that from that sentence it should become clear that the Jews should become executed.
Q This is talking about the East. It is talking about Jews in concentration camps in the East and that they should disappear from the East. Where should they disappear to? Where was it you understood that they should be evacuated to from the East?
A Well, the letter does not say that and I did not think about it because the main context of this letter contains something else, the coordination of labor. What he means by this, did not become known to me.
Q He is talking about the Jews in Occupied Poland. That is the East, isn't it and it says, first they are to put them all into large concentration camps and then they will disappear, in accordance with Hiler's wishes. I think the letter speaks perfectly for itself. Now let's turn to the second document in this same book, which is Exhibit 499. This is Himmler's letter to you and to Krueger in January, 1943, and he expresses surprise after his visit to the East and strong dissatisfaction over the fact that there still were some 40,000 Jews left in Warsaw and he instructs you and Krueger to do something about it. Now, I will turn to the third document in the Document Book, which is Exhibit 500. This is another letter from Himmler to you. This is dated February, 1943. In this letter Himmler instructs you: "I am giving the order to establish a concentration camp in the Ghetto of Warsaw." This concentration camp was not erected, was it? It wasn't erected?
A Yes, it was erected.
Q It was erected? You erected it?
AA concentration camp was in Warsaw later on, after 1943, I Court No. II, Case No. 4.believe, after July, 1943.
Q You carried out Himmler's order in the respect?
A Yes, I did.
Q And then turn to the next document. It is in February 1943 and all of these documents, I remind you, are before Himmler's speech, and all of this time Jews were being exterminated in the East, in Auschwitz, and in other concentration camps under your supervision. This letter, dated 16 February, 1943, is a letter from Himmler to Krueger ordering the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto subsequent to the removal of the concentration camp. Do you remember whether you received a copy of this letter?
A Yes, I do.
Q Did you receive a copy?
A Yes.
Q Will you look at the next letter, which is June 1943. This is Krueger's letter to Himmler, transmitting Stroop's final report on the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, following out the instructions that Himmler had previously given. Did you receive a copy of this report?
A I cannot recall that I ever saw this report before.
Q Do you tell us today that you did not?
A I don't believe I did. I cannot recall that I saw Stroop's report ever.
Q Well, you heard about it, didn't you?
A I heard about it later on.
Q How much later on?
A Well, after the end.
Q And the end was in June 1943. That's when the final mop up was reported and you heard, did you not, that Stroop reported that the SS fought for a period of several weeks against the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto; that 60 Waffen-SS men were killed in the fight and that an average of 36 SS officers and 54 SS men were used each day in the killing Court No. II, Case No. 4.of the Jews in Warsaw.
That is contained in Stroop's report. It also says in Stroop's report that on the first attack on the Ghetto the Jews succeeded in repelling the SS troops and quite a number of SS men were killed. You heard, didn't you, as Stroop reported on page 15 of his report that of the total of 56,065 Jews fought, about 7,000 were exterminated on the spot within the Ghetto in the course of a large scale action and that 6,929 were executed by transporting them to Treblinka II, which means 14,000 were exterminated immediately. Beyond the number of 56,000 Jews an estimated number of five to six thousand were killed by explosions or in fires. You heard about all of that didn't you and do you still maintain -
THE PRESIDENT: Let him answer, Mr. Robbins.
Q You heard about all this didn't you?
A These details did not reach me at that time. All I heard was that there was some action against the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, a military action, without being previously informed about this. I did not hear the details of it.
Q And you heard there was a perfectly peaceful action and nobody at all was killed?
AAt that time in some cases I heard it from the press or from hearsay and I heard there was an action where military forces were used. More details did not reach me at that time.
Q This report was made the 2d of January, 1943. Let's see what happened after that date and I remind you here that this was before Himmler's speech in Posen in October 1943. Will you look at the next document, which is Exhibit 503 on Page 8 of your Document Book. I am sorry, we have already covered that. Look at Exhibit 504, which is the next one on page 155 of your Document Book, which is after the Stroop report. This is a letter from Himmler to you and others. This was after the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, or, at least, after the main part of the military action and Himmler says:
"I herewith order that the Dzielna prison on the former Ghetto Court No. II, Case No. 4.of Warsaw is to be transformed into a concentration camp.
The prisoners are to gather and to secure the millions of building stones, scrap iron and other building material of the former Ghetto."
and then, he instructs that a concentration camp will be erected. You received this letter, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q And you know that the concentration camp was erected there, do you not?
A Yes, at that time the concentration camp was erected in Warsaw.
Q Did you have anything to do with the construction of the concentration camp?
AAnother concentration camp, as far as I can recollect was built by the Essential Building Administration in Warsaw, which was under the Police leader at Cracow.
Q That was under the leadership of Amtsgruppe C, wasn't it?
A No, the central administration it was under the Construction Group with the Higher SS Police leaders, that is, the Administrative Post of Warsaw.
Q Well, if you didn't have anything to do with the construction of the concentration camp after the clean up action, why did Himmler instruct you to see that a concentration camp be erected? This is an order directed to you.
A Well, because I had to be informed of all these matters, because the Central Agency, Office Group D, was part of the WVHA, and I had to be informed about all these matters.
Q And you were completely informed about them, weren't you?
AAs far as it becomes clear from the correspondence.
Q And I would ask you next to turn to the following Document, which is NO-2403, Exhibit 503, on page 156 of your Document Book. This is a letter from Himmler to you as Chief of the WVHA ordering the transfer of the Jews from the Ghetto to the concentration camp and it says the Chief of the WVHA is required to take care that this reorganization Court No. II, Case No. 4.does not cause any reduction in the necessary production by the Wehrmacht.
You carried out Himmler's order that he gave you here, did you not?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I was never out in the East.
Q I don't mean that you personally built the concentration camp. You supervised it; you took care that there was no reduction in the production for the Wehrmacht; you didn't do it personally, but it was done under you, wasn't it?
A It was done by the regionally competent people, who were the administrative agency in Riga. They received the order to carry it out; and I did not bother about the details. I was unable to do so.
Q We'll turn to the next document, which is Exhibit 506, a letter which you wrote, signed 23 July 1943. This was Himmler's speech in Poland; and you are reporting to Himmler that "I report that the concentration camp in the Warsaw Ghetto has been erected and was occupied by the first 300 prisoners on 19/7/43." You signed this letter, did you not?
A Yes.
Q You say in the last paragraph, "Work in the former Ghetto will be executed in the closest collaboration with the SS and police leader in the Warsaw district, SS Brigadefuehrer Stroop." You followed out that promise, didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q Then I should like to ask you, your office procured the gas for the Jewish extermination as early as July 1942, didn't it?
A My office never supplied gas for the extermination of Jews; but I should like to say something about this document. Of all those documents which you have put to me, none of them shows that I had any knowledge of the extermination of the Jews. All these documents are concerned with the reorganization of the whole of the armament enterprises, the concentration of Jews who up to the last moment worked in economic enterprises. If all Jews would suddenly have vanished from the enterprises, I would have reflected about it.
Q Excuse me. Those are inferences and conclusions from the letters which the Tribunal will have to draw for itself. It is perfectly Court No. II, Case No. 4.obvious to me that you were intimately connected with the extermination of the Jews and all this program.
Now, I've asked you, isn't it true that your office actually procured the gas for the extermination of the Jews? Wasn't that handled through Amtsgruppe D?
A I never had any knowledge of that at all, that Office Group D supplied the gas. I doubt that. I never saw anything of it. I never talked about it.
Q I'll show you a group of documents here. Perhaps that will refresh your recollection. First I should like to show you Document NO 2360, which I shall mark for identification as Exhibit 531. This is a teletype from Amtsgruppe D signed by Gluecks; and it is addressed to the commander of the concentration camp at Auschwitz.
MR. ROBBINS: I will ask that this be distributed; and I will ask that 2362 and 2363 be distributed also.
Q This is a cable from Gluecks to the commander of concentration camp Auschwitz. It reads: "Travel permit for a truck from Auschwitz to Dessau and back for the purpose of getting Zyklon gas is hereby granted for 30/7/43. The speciaL SS identification card is to be handed to the driver."
What does that mean to you?
A This is the first time I've seen this document. It does not concern itself with the supply of gas but is purely a travel permit for a trip from Auschwitz to Dessau which was necessary at that time because fuel was so short that it was put at the disposal of agencies only in urgent cases, and long distance trips which went beyond the district concerned had to be approved by a higher agency. That is the part we are concerned with here; and I knew nothing about the whole matter.
Q You think that this gas was used for fuel, do you, to warm the barracks and the SS homes?
A The fuel was approved for the trip from Auschwitz to Dessau which the document shows quite clearly. I am seeing this document for Court No. II, Case No. 4.the first time and did not know what Office Group D had to give the permit for.
Q What do you think the Zyklon gas was used for?
A I know now that Zyklon gas was used to exterminate Jews; but at that time I did not know it. I had nothing to do with it.
Q You know now that it was carried by Amtsgruppe D, don't you?
A I see this from this document, yes; that is to say, it was carried by trucks of the Auschwitz camp, and Office Group D had to get permission for that act, which I did not know before.
Q Then you state that you did not know that Amtsgruppe D was carrying out this function?
A No, I did not know that. That permission had to be given by Office Group D I did not know.
MR. ROBBINS: At this time I should like to mark for identification the other two documents which I have distributed, NO-2363 as Prosecution Exhibit 532, and NO-2362 as Prosecution Exhibit 533. The latter exhibit is a cable from Amtsgruppe D, Liebewenschel, to the concentration camp Auschwitz and reads:
"Your request for a five ton truck with trailer to go to Dessau and back for the purpose of getting material for the transfer of Jews is hereby approved.."
Q Also, in 1942 before the Posen speech the defendant Frank, who was working under you, prescribed the regulations regarding the utilization of property of the Jews who were being sent to the gas chambers, including the gold from the teeth, which was, according to his instructions, to be delivered to the WVHA, jewelry, precious stones and pearls, delivered to the WVHA, foreign exchange, valuable furs, to be delivered to the WVHA and on to the Reich but first delivered to the WVHA, watches, clocks, fountain pens, mechanical pencils, hand and electric razors, pocket knives and flash-lights, which, according to his instructions, were to be delivered to the WVHA and repaired by the WVHA, as shown in Exhibit 472 which the Tribunal discussed with you last week.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
It is in Document Book 18, Page 108, your Honor.
You recall that Frank gave those instructions, don't you?
A Yes, I recall them; but this document again does not show that all these things came from actions connected with the extermination of Jews. Himmler himself regarded it as stolen property. I was unable to say where they actually came from. Frank worked on it on the basis of directives which came from Himmler himself.
Q Himmler regarded it as stolen property all right because in Frank's order he says that all of this property which has been confiscated from the Jews is in the future to be called goods originating from thefts, receiving of stolen goods, and goods". You remember that in Frank's letter, don't you?
A Yes, I do.
Q They were stolen all right but it was stolen from the Jews, wasn't it?
A That is quite possible; but from Berlin I was unable to say.
Q It's not only possible, it is highly probable. It is not only probable; it is absolutely certain, isn't it? There's no doubt about it in your mind? This property didn't belong to the WVHA, did it? It was stolen from the Jews, wasn't it?
AAs it came from the East it couldn't belong to us. As far as all these actions were concerned, I had no active part; and from Berlin I was not able to form an impression where these things came from. I assumed at the time that they came from confiscated property, the confiscations carried out by the police and camp together. Other details were not known to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, you didn't give Document NO-2360 a number. Did you mean to?
MR. ROBBINS: I intended to give it the number Exhibit 531.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Q You say you didn't know where it came from?
A It came from the East. Where it came from and what the story Court No. II, Case No. 4.was behind it I have later on learned on the basis of the evidence which Globocnik supplied to me.
I could only form a real picture of these matters slowly by the various documents which reached me as time went on. Nobody told me what would happen or what actually did happen and how all these things were gathered together. I never saw one single transport. Therefore I could not form an impression of how it was put together.
Q So you actually didn't form any impression. I'd like to show you Document Number 2571.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):
Q Witness, I am curious to know whether, as you learned of these vast quantities of goods coming in, if any image formed in your mind as to the origin of these goods.
A I never saw the individual transports but only in the end saw a sort of total list. We have transported so many goods in the war that these quantities of goods, when transported and so far as their extent was concerned, did not seem to me to be particularly large.
MR. ROBBINS: There were 825 carloads, weren't there? You knew that.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q 825 carloads is a rather sizeable mass of material?
A Well, that probably occurred in various individual transports which arrived and were distributed over a long period of time; and I didn't think it was too much. I did not think anything of it at all.