Q. Will you first turn to Document Book 7 in this connection, to Document NO-266? It is on page 41 of your book. Exhibit 204.
A. Yes, I found it.
Q. It states there that--this is a letter by Loerner is it not?-to the personal staff of Loerner?
A. Yes.
Q. And it states as far as expenses for the institute--referring to the Ahnenerbe--are to be met, they are to be disbursed out of the funds of the Waffen-SS, by the cashier of the personal staff as follows, etc.
Isn't it clear from this letter that he handled at least some of the budgetary affairs of the Ahnenerbe? This is a letter by Loerner.
A. That is exactly what I have just stated. I was thinking of this letter when I discussed this matter before. It is not a part of the budget of the Ahnenerbe, but it is a notification where the money which came from the Reich Budget of the Waffen-SS in the military scientific institute was to be accredited. That is, with the Waffen-SS and not with the Ahnenerbe. That is to say, with the treasury of the personal staff.
Q. Well, then will you turn to another document on this subject in Document Book 9; it is on page 47 of the German, document NO-098.
A. Yes, I have it.
Q. Do you see the point on page three of the original where budgetary matters are talked about. Incidentally, this is a letter from Sievers of the Ahnenerbe to Brandt, on the personal staff of Himmler. And Sievers says that the budget of the institute will be met according to the order of the Reich Leader of the SS, and was already discussed by me in detail with SS-Standartenfuehrer Loerner, out of the funds of the Waffen-SS.
He is talking in this connection about payment for the use of prisoners for medical experiments, is he not?
He says, "We use only ten prisoners........"
A. No, that is exactly the same letter which we have discussed previously and which Sievers is referring to here. It is not so that Loerner from case to case especially turned over every expense to the Ahnenerbe, but once he had received the approval from Himmler to use Reichs funds from the Waffen-SS for the financing office, and by one notifying the treasury of his personal staff, were such funds to be accounted for. With that, the activities of Loerner had been completed. He did not have to say in every case: "This bill has to be paid, has to be paid, etc." But this became completely superfluous.
Q. Excuse me. This letter deals with the payment which the Ahnenerbe has to make for the use of inmates for medical experiments. The Ahnenerbe complains that they are having to pay too much. Now, you can answer the following question Yes or No. Is it clear to you from this document that Loerner participated in the discussions about charges for inmates? Is that clear to you from this document?
A. No.
Q. That is all I ask you: If it is not clear. Then it isn't?
A. No, that cannot be seen either, by the document.
Q. I would like to ask you if you took any part in the follow-up of the matter of charges for inmates for medical experiments. Were you informed about this matter: the charges which were being made to Ahnenerbe for prisoners?
A. I don't know that the Ahnenerbe paid these prisoners. In any case, I can't recall that I was ever approached in a matter of raising funds for the furnishing of these prisoners.
Q. There is no doubt about it, that the inmates themselves were not paid for being experimented upon. And I am just asking you if you know anything about the charges which were made for the use of inmates for medical experiments, charges which were made by Amtsgruppe D of your organization.
You have stated that-
A. I cannot remember that Amtsgruppe D had any expenses for prisoners who were used for medical experiments. I don't know because I did not write out the bill.
Q. I would like to show you a letter that you wrote on the fifth of November, 1942, and see if this doesn't state the exact contrary. This is Document NO-2789, and I should like to assign Exhibit No. 530 for identification. This letter is signed by you, is it not?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And it is addressed to the chief of Division D. I should like to read part of it. You state:
"I was informed by SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt that the Ahnenerbe has been charged by your office---" (to Interpreters) Do you have a copy?--"with the expenses for the prisoners. The ancestral Heritage Research Organization is carrying out experiments in Natzweiler." Will you follow this on the original to see if the translation is correct?
A. Yes.
Q. "At the order of the Reichsfuehrer-SS under the direction of Professor Hirt the Ancestral Heritage Research Organization is a part of the SS Supreme Command. I assume that these facts are not sufficiently known in your office. Otherwise, it could not have happened that the Ancestral Heritage Research Organization was charged with the expenses for prisoners, especially when these prisoners were used merely for purposes of experiment. Furthermore, I would like to insure that the Ancestral Heritage Research Organization is given the utmost assistance wherever it is active. This applies also to the installation of experimental stations, supply of material, electricity, etc."
Would you like to modify your prior testimony in light of this?
A. No, I adhere to my previous testimony, I said ....
Q. Do you still maintain that you had no knowledge that charges were being made by Amtsgruppe D to the Ahnenerbe for prisoners?
A. Yes, I adhere to this statement because the letter states at the beginning that only through Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt, the Secretary of Himmler, was I informed of this; and I was told that Amtsgruppe D had charged expenses for the use of prisoners for these experiments. I did not know of that. I otherwise would not have needed to write the letter.
Q. I didn't ask you who informed you; I asked you if you had been informed, and you said that you knew nothing about it.
A. I did not know anything about the individual incidents, about prisoners expenses which were charged and those which were not. I did not find out anything about this. It was a matter between the camp and Amtsgruppe D, and I was not contacted about these matters. There must have been thousands of bills. That is the same thing which I have point out yesterday. It is impossible for me to look up each bill here like a little clerk. Just this document is proof of the fact that I did not know anything about it. Otherwise, I would have informed Amtsgruppe D.
Q. The document will speak for itself. But this letter is signed, is it not?
A. Of course.
Q. And it refers to the fact that the Ahnenerbe has been charged too much for the use of inmates for medical experiments, does it not?
A. After this letter, Brandt told me that the Ahnenerbe had to pay money to prisoners of Amtsgruppe D although the Ahnenerbe was part of the personal staff. It was a bill of expenses within the firm; and I pointed out to Amtsgruppe D that this procedure was nonsense. Because--
Q. Well, you must have known something about it. You must have been informed by someone that charges were being made; otherwise, you couldn't have told D to stop charging Ahnenerbe.
A. Well, that is contained at the beginning of the letter. The letter starts: "As SS Sturmbannfuehrer Brandt informs me"-and that is where I found out about it.
Q. And after this letter, did Amtsgruppe D stop charging Ahnenerbe for inmates?
A. I suppose so.
Q. That's what you recommended in this letter?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Then after you interfered in the procedure, didn't the doctors who it cost the doctors who experimented on human beings less for their human subjects than it would have cost them for a cat? There was some charge made for a cat for experimentation, but after you got through with the procedure, no charge at all was made, is that correct?
A. The question of expenses did not play a major part in comparison with cats. I must refute it. It does not correspond with my concept. Payments by him to the agencies of the SS was sheer nonsense. I tried to stop it. That was the whole letter. The Treasury of the Personnel Staff spent the money and another treasury at Oranienburg received the money. That was the purpose of this letter.
Q. So that it didn't cost Ahnenerbe anything at all for human subjects?
A. After that I answered that Ahnenerbe was not to make any additional payments for the use of prisoners, because that was part of the Reichsfuehrung-SS.
Q. You don't still maintain, do you, that you knew nothing about the fact that Ahnenerbe was using inmates --prisoners -- and that charges prior to your letter-
A. I have never denied that. I never denied that I had no knowledge of it.
Q. The record will speak on that subject. Hans Loerner also participated, did he not, in the negotiations concerning the so-called wages for inmate labor of all of the SS industries?
A. I don't think so. The wage discussions for the prisoners----
Q. Yes, you remember that from the documents, don't you, that Hans Loerner participated in the discussions on charges for inmate labor to the SS industries?
A. I don't think that Hans Loerner played any part in that. It wasn't even in his field of work. I don't think so.
Q. Will you turn to Document Book No. 4, to page 46 in your book. This is Exhibit 86, Document NO-517, on page 34 of the English Book.
A. In Document ---- what page of the German?
Q. On page 46, I believe of the German.
A. That is Document NO-242.
Q. You see NO-517 at about that location?
A. Just a moment please.
Q. Book 4, yes, page 46 in Book 4. Is that Hans Loerner that is referred to in the last paragraph of the letter?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. This is a memorandum by Baier, signed Chief W, and it concerns camp regulations for prisoners and it states that you have asked that Baier draw up certain regulations and those regulations concern the amount to be fixed as pay for prisoners and so forth. The proportion of pay which goes to the Reich, premiums, and other matters concerning payment for prisoners. The last paragraph says that Loerner and Salpeter have to be consulted. You gave those instructions, didn't you?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Do you still maintain that Hans Loerner had nothing to do with the fixing of inmate wages -- so called?
A. I see now that in this work, because he was also the expert for the salary questions of the employees and workers and he was to participate in this.
If any collaboration took place, I do not know, this is an exception.
Q. You know now, don't you from looking at the document? It says----
A. Yes, yes, yes.
MR. ROBBINS: Would this be a convenient time for the Tribunal to recess?
THE PRESIDENT: As you say.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for 1t minutes.
( A recess was taken. )
Q. When do you recall when you first met Hans Loerner?
A. I can not recollect it. I don't know when he joined the WVHA.It might have been in 1940, but I knew his name before that, because he was in charge of some administrative office, but I am not sure of the year.
Q. I am very sorry. Would you repeat that?
A. I don't recollect the year when I met him personally. At the same time I believe he was in some administrative office of the Reich. I knew him by name, but when I met him for the first time I don't recollect.
Q. Do you remember when he first joined your administrative organization?
A. It might have been before the war, but I am not quite sure.
Q. Do you recall what his first position was. At that time. The organization was the Main Office Budget and Construction, was it not? I suppose he held the position then of Main Office Administration and Economy?
A. I don't know, because he did not come to see me personally at the time. He must have been in charge of Main Department of the Office, I am not sure. He was not immediately under me. I assume he was under Office Chief, but I don't recall what position he had at the time.
Q. Do you know whether or not he joined the SS voluntarily? Do you know when that occurred?
A. If he joined it before the war, it must have been voluntarily.
Q. Well, we are still discussing Amtsgruppe-A. I would like to ask you if you recall the time when an administrative unit was established in Division D. That is, the administration was taken out of A and placed in D, as far as certain items of concentration camp administrations were concerned. Do you know when that occurred?
A. Do you mean the taking out of the Main Department 1-5 from Office Group-A?
Q. No, we discussed that yesterday. I am referring now to the establishment of an administrative unit in Division D -- Office Group D, wasn't that?
A. Yes, there was an administrative unit within Office Group D, that existed from the beginning. Even at the time when Office Group D, had not been made part of WVHA, that was the Central Office for the Administration of camps.
Q. You don't recall on the 3rd -- around the 3rd of June, as a matter of fact, it was the 1 June 1943, a separate administrative unit without a finance office was set up in Division D, and was named, "SS Main Office for Economy and Administration Division D Administration."
A. I don't understand what you mean?
Q. You don't recall that that happened, is that right? Or you don't understand that question?
A. The question is so unclear, and that the description is so confused, I don't know what is being asked about it.
Q. I am reading from a document that unfortunately I don't have the original here so I can not give it to you. I am just questioning you generally about it, and you state, do you , that you don't recall that an administrative unit was established in 1943 in Amtsgruppe D.?
A. You asked me whether in 1943 an administrative unit was established in Office Group D. I can not understand that because the administrative office there always existed. I don't know what you mean by administrative unit within Office Group-D? In Office Group D, or in the inspectorate of the concentration camps unit, there always was an administrative office that was further defined in 1943 that always existed.
Q. Did the administrative office report to Office Groups A-2, A-4 and A-5 on certain phases ofits activities?
A. We were so far an administrative Office within Office Group-D, the administrative unit. If there was a decision about budgeting matter, that went to the budget department itself. I don't know what you mean by report.
Q. Did A-2,A-4 and A-5 make any decisions on budgetary matters which concerned Amtsgruppe-D?
A. That is the budget was set up for the entire Waffen-SS Office Group-A, and it must have been an administrative office. The Office D-4 was a purely regional, which concerned the budget. For instance, the budget for the concentration camps, which they had to prepare, and then it passed onto Office Group-A, as its contribution and Office Group-A reviewed the budget for concentration camp, which was passed onto it by Office Group-D. Amtsgruppe-A reviewed the budget for the concentration camps, which was submitted it by the Amtsgruppe-D. Is not that what you just said?
A. Office Group-A put together the whole of the budget by listing together the various contributions. The review on the part of Office Group-A did not apply because their needs would not be known. The reviewing was up to a lower agency which knew about all these requirements. They set up the budget, in this case the administrative office, of the Inspectorate, that is, Office D-4, they put together the budget for all concentration camps, and then passed it on as part of the whole budget of the Waffen-SS, to Office Group-A, which then put together the entire budget.
Q. And to which Amt of Amtsgpuppe-A was the budget sent?
A. To what office?
Q. Which Amt in Amtsgruppe-A?
A. I believe it was Office A-1, but I am not quite sure how it was divided up into details. I believe A-1 was the budget.
Q. And who was in charge of it, Hans Loerner?
A. Yes.
Q. And I now turn to the defendant Fanslau. When did you first meet Fanslau?
A. I saw him for the first time before the war. At that time he was in charge of an administrative office and I met him in Munich. When he joined the WVHA I am not able to say. Yes, he succeeded Frank in 1943, I believe, but I am not quite sure of the figures.
Q. Do you remember when he was made Chief of Amt A-5?
A. No, I don't know.
Q. You know, do you not, that he was in 1944 made Chief of Amtsgruppe-A?
A. Yes. In 1944 in the Summer he took over and he was first charged with Direction, and in September he was later made Chief of the Office Group.
Q. And when he was made the Office Group Chief, do you know that Hans Loerner became his deputy?
A. Yes, I suppose so. I believe Hans Loerner was the most senior to the office chief.
Q. Will you describe the duties of the personnel office of Amtsgruppe-A, and which was Amt A-5?
A. Well, the details are not known to me. The personnel office looked after the personnel data of all administrative leaders. The administrative skilled personnel transferred the planing course, and all other matters which usually connected with personnel offices.
Q. Did they handle the transfer and replacement and recruitment of the Death Head Units?
A. No, the guards in the Death Head Unit were recruited by the Operational Main Office. We had nothing to do with that. The personnel office of Office A-5 only such personnel date were handled up which concerned the leaders of their offices. It might have concerned about three thousand men. I am not quite sure.
Q. What personnel office handled the replacement of the death head units?
A. Concentration camp guards and replacement and recruiting members of the death-head units as such, and all other units of the Waffen SS was the task of the Operational Main Office. I do not know what office in that organization worked on it.
Q. Did Amt A-V handle the placement of the concentrationcamp commanders?
A. No.
Q. I should like to turn to Defendant Vogt, V-o-g-t. He was in charge of the office of audits, Amt A-IV?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you describe the duties and functions of A-IV?
THE INTERPRETER: There is a correction here. It is the Defendant Vogt, not Volk.
MR ROBBINS: Vogt, V-o-g-t.
A. A-IV was the auditing office and was in charge, or rather carried out the preliminary auditing with the units of the Waffen SS.
Q. Fanslau in his affidavit states that Vogt checked up on all expenditures of the individual Amtsgruppen within the WVHA with the exception of Amtsgruppe C and W. Is that correct?
A Yes, that was part of it . They were also units of the Waffen SS. The WVHA also had to be audited, so to speak, and the overheads of Office Group C were of a technical nature and therefore required technical auditing, which Office A-IV was unable to do.
Q. And Amtsgruppe W had its own auditors?
A. Office Group W had its own auditors also. That was the commercial part. The other office groups were put on a different basis, on a fiscal basis. They were quite different auditing fields which concerned with there. Office Group W, therefore, the Office A-IV had nothing to do with because it did not have the technical experts for these tasks.
Office A-IV audited the fiscally laid books, whereas Amtsgruppe W looked after the commercial side of it.
Q. And Vogt audited the books for Amtsgruppe D?
A. Yes, I assume that Vogt also audited those, but the whole auditing procedure in the course of the years, especially in the war was changed so often. Sometimes preliminary auditing could be dispensed with. Sometimes we would call it final auditing, and therefore I cannot say with certainty whether and for that period of time offices were audited. I can say only very generally that Office A-IV audited the Reich agencies.
Q. That includes Amtsgruppe D, does it not? You said-
A. Yes, that was also a Reich agency.
Q. Do you know now when you first met Vogt?
A. I met Vogt when he joined the Administrative Office. That must have been in '36 or '37.
Q. And at that time the office was called Verwaltungsamt?
A. Yes, yes, it was called SS-Verwaltungsamt, Administrative Office.
Q. And what position did Vogt have at that time?
A. We had an auditing office there already in 1936 or '37. Vogt probably was in charge of the department. He may have been a main department chief. I am unable to give the precise details because the organized station and task of the various office groups I am no longer very familiar with. Details go so far and you become so involved that I do not recall it precisely.
Q. Was Vogt an SS man during that period?
A. Yes. I do not know where he came from. He was, during his activity with us, he was a member of the SS.
Q. And he provably joined the SS voluntarily, is that correct?
A. Yes, because he came before the war.
Q. Do you know for a fact that he joined it voluntarily or is that just an assumption?
A. I cannot say for certain. I assume it, because I do not know where he came from, whether he came, he was transferred from a Government department to the SS, which is possible. I do not recall the details. I seem to remember that he came from some food office of finance or supply office.
Q. I would like to turn next to a discussion of the Defendant Tschentschner. He was in charge of Amt B-1, was he not?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was-- Will you describe the purposes and functions of Amt B-1 ?
A. That was an office of Office Group B which dealt with food supplies for the Waffen-SS.
Q. Do you know that on occasion he arranged for the supply of food to concentration camps?
A. No, the Office B-1 had nothing to do with it.
Q. He states in his affidavit that he arranged for a supply of food for the concentration camp Norhausen where the V-weapons were being constructed. Do you know anything about that?
A. He was sent there by me at one time, and there was an emergency, in order to report to me about conditions there, and then he was given the order to supply as much food as possible from troop movements, which was an issolated act of assistance that he carried out. But that was not part of his permanent duties in the Office B-I.
Q. Wasn't it a part of his permanent duties to arrange for food for the concentration camps whenever Amtsgruppe D was unable to furnish it?
A. No, that was not his task. The Office Group D had to be in a position to do so, unless, as in the case of Nordhausen, because transport had been interrupted, and by supply difficulties caused by damage to traffic installations. Whether, that is to say, Office Group B intervened in order to do something about the emergency, that was done in an isolated example on a large scale, and perhaps there were a few more small cases, but they were all of them exceptional, and that was not part of the duties of Office Group B.
Q. Do you recall when you first met Tschentschner,?
A. Tschentschner was part of the units for a long time. I do not know when he joined the main office, during the war it must have been, perhaps as late as 1942, but I am not certain.
Q. And what position did he first held in the WVHA?
A. As far as I can recall he became at once the Main Office Group B Chief of Office.
Q. He was also deputy chief of the entire Amtsgruppe, was he not?
A. I don't know Loerner made him his deputy. The various deputies of office group chiefs I did not decide. The office group chiefs themselves decided who should be their closers collaborator, and any formal confirmation was never done.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Robbins.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. What supplies did this defendant furnish, and to whom did he furnish supplies?
A. At that time he supplied the Nordhausen camp. On my orders he took food from army supplies in order to combat an emergency. That was done on a large scale. Actually several convoys of trucks were used on a large scale. The actual supplies came from the Waffen SS, that is the troops, which was actually not quite allowed, but as the emergency existed I ordered this so that something would be done then or there was no possibility to help this camp.
Q. I am not particularly interested in that--you already certified to that, we already know that. But did this defendant furnish any other supplies and if he did furnish any other supplies or had charge of furnishing other supplies to whom did he furnish the other supplies--other than food?
A. That was an isolated delivery to Nordhausen camp.
Q. I am not asking about that at all. I am asking you: Did he furnish any other supplies of any kind or character to any other concentration camps at any time?
A. I don't believe so. He was not allowed to do so. He was not allowed to do that.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. George Loerner, who was Tschentschner's superior, and who was in charge of Amtsgruppe B, says this in his affidavit: "If Amtsgruppe D was in need of rations, Berger sometimes turned directly to the chief of Amtsgruppe B-1, Rations, Standartenfuehrer Tschentschner, who reported it to me."
Do you know whether or not that is a fact?
A. I can say nothing about that. I do not know how the various offices dealt with these things among each other.
Q. You have already said something about it. You said that it didn't work that way. I am just asking you now if George Loerner is wrong in his conception of the way food was furnished the concentration camps. He was in charge of this.
A. He should know that himself if he said so. After all, he was chief of Office Group D, and I can't say anything about that. Anyway, as far as official orders were concerned, Office Group B was not competent for that task. Whether he, himself, intervened on his own initiative in certain cases, I don't know.
Q. Well, he goes ahead to say "official channels were from D-4 to Gluecks and from Gluecks to me. I admit that these were normal channels."
Is there anything wrong with that?
A. As I remember it, the channel stopped at D-4, the central administration, and how far that office contacted Office Group B and Office Group B-1 in certain cases is quite unknown to me. I never saw anything, and I can't say anything about the. The arrangements he made between himself and Office D-4 never reached me.
Q. You recall, don't you, that when you were interrogated that after you were first arrested you said that this office D handled food as well as clothing for the concentration camps? You recall that, do you not?
A. Yes, that is correct. I said that, but I corrected it later on after I remembered that the whole of the food supply question was decided on by the Reichs Food Ministry--not by Office D-4.
Q. Do you know whether or not Tschentschner joined the SS voluntarily?
A. I do not know; I do not know where he joined it.
Q. I should like next to turn to the defendant Scheide who was chief of Office B-5, Transportation. Will you tell us what his duties were?
A. Scheide was the technical leader for transportation in the WVHA. He was not a member of the skilled personnel of the Main Office. In his charge was, first of all, the maintenance of all our vehicles. And in order to look after the transports for food and clothing as far as that became necessary within Office Group B. Those were his main duties. What other duties were added to this later on, I do not know.
Q. You say he took care of the maintenance for all "of our vehicles." Do you mean by that the vehicles of all of the Amtsgruppen?
A. Yes, the vehicles of the WVHA--only of the Main Office.
Q. Do you know that he also furnished weapons for the concentration camps; arms, ammunition?
A. Well, ammunition and weapons were supplied by the Main Operational Office, but it is possible that applications of Office Group D to the Operational Main Office went through Scheide's office, but I am not quite sure.
Q. That is what he says in his affidavit. It is not only possible --it is highly probable that that was the channels.
A. Well, as I have said, I do not know the various details of the duties.
Q. Do you know when he first joined your administrative organization?
A. Scheide came relatively late. I don't think he came before 1943--but again I am not quite sure.
Q. And was he made chief-of-office as soon as he was assigned to the WVHA?
A. Well, whether he became office chief immediately, I don't know. But he certainly was that later on, chief of office.
Q. Do you know whether or not he joined the SS voluntarily?
A. I do not know.
Q. I next direct your attention to the defendant Kiefer, in Amtsgruppe C. He was Office Chief of C-2, Special Construction Tasks Will you tell us what this office was in charge of?
A. That office, C-2, as far as I can recollect, was mainly in charge of the whole settlement program, for the post-war years. It had to prepare it. That was, above all, plans for settlement. And Kiefer in this field was a specialist, an expert. For that reason as far as I am informed, Kammler, I believe, borrowed him from the Luftwaffe.
Q. He was at one time Kammler's deputy chief of Amtsgruppe C, was he not? You remember that from the documents, don't you?
A. Yes, I remember reading that here in the document.
Q. You didn't know it before you saw it in the document?
A. No, I didn't recall that. I cannot recall. He may have come to see me once, but I did not recall it.
Q. You know do you not that in his special construction tasks he used concentration camp inmates as laborers?
A. Yes, that whole business was never carried out in the war. No settlements were built as far as I know. Kiefer dealt with plans for settlement. That is to say, with office work.
Q. Do you mean that none of Kiefer's plans were carried out, that no construction whatever was carried out under Kiefer?
A. I don't believe so. Building in the war with timber was very difficult, and I don't think that under Kiefer we actually built settlements. By that I mean these large, living settlements for post-war years which were planned. It was never carried out
Q. He was in charge of building hospitals and infirmaries. Weren't hospitals and infirmaries built during the war?
A. No, in the war we did not build hospitals or infirmaries. We changed them in some cases but large constructions were never carried out because it was not possible to do so.
Q. I didn't ask if large constructions--Some hospitals must have been built during the war under Kiefer, weren't they?
A. Not that I know of. I do not know.
Q. Office C-2, sub-division 2 was in charge of buildings for armament, ammunition, and signal purposes. What did this consist of: building for armament and ammunition? That is on the chart that you signed which is in evidence.
A. I am not acquainted with the details there. All I remember is the office chief of this enormous office. What these people did in detail in departments and sub-departments, I cannot say.
Q. So you can't say with any certainty whether or not Kiefer used concentration camp inmates?
A. No, I am unable to say that with certainty. I am of the opinion that kiefer only planned in his office, but I am not quite sure.