The overall situation was detrimental to armament production because this lack of coordination and the interference of private firms depended on the Inspector of the Army Equipment, Lieutenant General Schindler at Cracow. They therefore did not come up to scratch as far as labor was concerned and also the distribution of raw materials. In this file, now -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, this isn't even remotely in answer to your question. Now go back to your question again and insist that the witness answer what you asked him.
DR. SEIDL: I asked the witness what his reasons were for making this file note, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 63, and he has now described the negotiations which led to the fact that the ten labor camps in Lublin, as contained under paragraph three of this file note were to have been taken over by the WVHA. I think the witness has finished with his description of these negotiations.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I know he has.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. On 13 January 1944 Amtsgruppe D addressed a circular to the commanders of the concentration camps, with the subject "Rendering of Reports from Concentration Camps." That circular letter is Prosecution Exhibit No. 64, Document NO-1548, in Document Book 3, page 76 of the English text. Here is my question: Were those protective custody reports from concentration camps submitted to you?
A. These reports never reached me. They went to the Inspectorate.
Q. And the Inspectorate did not pass on the reports to you?
A. No.
Q. Then there is another document which the Prosecution has submitted. It concerns food rations for the inmates. That is Document NO-576, in Document Book 3 on page 88, in the German text, page 86 of the English text. It comes from the Chief of Office D-2 and was written on 24 February 1944 in Oranienburg. What is your explanation of this document?
A. This concerns the pay of the inmates, and they only concerned the economic enterprises of the SS, which employed inmates. These enterprises which had originated in the work shops of the camps paid, when they were started, no money at all to the Reich. Only when in 1936 concentration camps were financed by the Reich and the Reich Ministry of Finance stipulated that moneys which would come in through the labor inmates had to be transferred to the Reich Ministry of Finance in order to pay for such expenses as the Reich incurred, and so, therefore, from that time onward, on an increasing scale, the income of these economic enterprises was transferred and sent to the Reich.
Q. Prosecution Exhibit No. 69 is a document headed "Directive for the Heads of Political Departments, at the conference of 23 March 1944". This is Document NO-1553, Document Book 3, page 91 of the English version, page 96 of the German text. I am now asking you: Who issued these directives and did the heads of the political departments take part in conferences of the commanders?
A. These directives, as I see from the signature, must have been drawn up by the Inspectorate. It ways on the bottom: Chief of the Office D-I. This is the central office of the Inspectorate. Whether the political heads took part in the official conferences between the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps and the camp commanders, is unknown to me.
Q. Another Prosecution Exhibit concerns compensation of concentration camp commanders for incurred expenses. This is Document NO-2160, Prosecution Exhibit 76, Document Book 3, Page 114 of the English text, and Page 104 of the German version. I am asking you now, for what reason were the camp commanders given these reimbursements, and from what funds did the money come?
A. When the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was incorporated into the WVHA and when the allocation of labor was introduced, I decided to appoint the camp commanders, as plant directors of the socalled W-enterprises. These were enterprises within the concentration camps which through the years were strongly opposed by the concentration camp commanders.
That became evident when the camp commandants took away the best workers from these W-enterprises which were subordinated to the WVHA, and preferred to send these skilled workers to the workshops of the camps which were directed by the camp commandants themselves, and to their so-called "black" workshops, which they kept going secretly for all sorts of purposes. I believed that that by making the camp commanders responsible in the W-enterprises, I would then finally settle this problem. Thus, that skilled workers would now be sent by the commanders to wherever they could do their best work. For that reason I appointed the camp commanders as the heads of the enterprises. That was a fictitious title which had no effect on practical matters. In order to maintain that fiction, I gave them a monthly sum of money, some sort of salary, and this money had to come from the enterprises themselves.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until Monday morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 hours Monday morning.
(Whereupon the Tribunal recessed at 1640 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 May 1947, 0930-1630 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal Number II.
The Tribunal is now in session.
There will be order in the Court.
May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in Court.
OSWALD POHL -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION -- Continued BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, the Prosecution introduced as Prosecution Exhibit No. 72 a Fuehrer Order of 27 September 1942 with reference to prisoners of war, Document NO-076, Document Book 3, page 107 of the German text and 109 of the English. I shall ask you now, witness, what was the effect of this order with reference to labour assignment of prisoners of war?
AAfter receiving this order, I contacted Obergruppenfuehrer Berger. I called him by telephone, and I asked him what we had to do not. He answered that this was not the opportune moment had not arrived yet and that he would inform me about it later on. However, I heard nothing at all about it later, and cooperation between the two main offices did not take place.
Q Witness, prior to that, within the framework of labor assignments of inmates, did you have anything to do with prisoners of war?
A I had nothing to do with prisoners of war. Prisoners of war were in the concentration camps. However, I did not know how and for what reason they had been sent to the concentration camps.
Q Exhibit No. 73 of the Prosecution is a letter of the Chief of Amtsgruppe D IV to the Chief of Amtsgruppe B of 15 August 1942 which has something to do with the clothing of inmates. Document NO 1990, Document Book 3, page 112, and page 102 of the English book. Can you make a statement with reference to that document?
A With reference to this document I can say nothing at all. That is addressed to Amtsgruppe B, and apparently it deals with the clothing which was to be put at the disposal of the inmates. I did not see the document at the time.
Q As Exhibit 75 the Prosecution introduced an affidavit by a certain Hermann Pister. It is Document NO 2324 Doc. Book III, page 121 of the German text and 109 of the English text. Among other things, it is asserted there that the commandants' meetings which took place every three or four months took place in the WVHA under your direction. Is that correct, witness?
A That is a mistake on the part of Pister. The commandants' meetings took place only in Oranienburg, to be precise, under the direction of Gluecks. Apparently Pister here mixes up the meetings of the commandants in the evening prior to the meeting you are talking about. Before the official meeting, in order to give them the opportunity to discuss certain things with me, I either invited them to supper in Berlin, if I had no time to go to Oranienburg myself, or I had supper in Oranienburg myself. The actual, official meetings always took place the following day in Oranienburg under Glueck's chairmanship. The only exception is the meeting which I have mentioned before which took place in April 1942 in Berlin and in the course of which I informed the commandants and the workshop managers of the draft law of March 1942.
Q In Pister's affidavit, in the same affidavit, it is asserted that at a Commandants' meeting you made an addition to the camp order to the effect that inmates who refused to work should be considered as enemies of the state and that the commandants had the right to sentence these people to death immediately and to carry out that sentence. Is that assertion of Pister correct?
A I never made such a statement. The punishment for the imates were provided for in the camp regulations. The camp regulations, as far as I remember, came out shortly before the war.
It was an official order which, precisely like any other official order, had to be agreed to by Himmler. For that the reason alone I could not change the camp statutes myself. On the basis of my official position, I did not have the right to take a measure which would entail drastic changes, and I never did make such a measure. Only Himmler could do that.
Q In this connection I have a few questions to ask you, witness, with reference to your position as a judicial authority. As Chief of the SS Main Office, you were also President of the Court for the officers and officials of the WVHA, insofar as they were part of the Wehrmachtsgefolge; is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q How many people were under your jurisdiction?
A 1500-1700. Those are the members of the WVHA.
Q If there existed suspicion of a punishable act with reference to one of the members of this office, then the SS and Police Court of Berlin was competent for that; is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Who took care of the factual matters which occurred in connection with your position as a judicial authority?
A The work was taken care of by the clerk-officer on my staff.
Q That was Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schmidt-Gibenow?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Did your jurisdiction also extend to the commandants of the concentration camps, in your position as a Judicial Authority?
A No.
Q Who was in charge of the commandants of the concentration camps and the officers and the personnel of the camps?
A They were under the jurisdiction of the Higher SS and Police Leader, within whose competence the camp was.
Q And competent for the jurisdiction with reference to punishable acts which occurred in concentration camps or in connection with concen tration camps, were the SS and Police Courts within whose districts the concentration camps were; is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q And the sentence had to be approved by the respective Higher SS and Police Leader, or by the Reichsfuehrer SS himself, is that correct, depending on the rank of the person in question and the act itself?
A That is correct.
Q Witness, I shall now come to the complex of questions which are among the most important questions of this trial. That is the question of the concentration camps. We have already discussed a few documents within this complex. Those were the documents introduced by the Prosecution within the framework of Document Books Nos. 2 and 3, and they also concern the organization of the WVHA. I would like to ask you a few fundamental questions with reference to this whole complex of questions. When was the first concentration camp created in Germany, and what was its purpose?
A. The first concentration camp which I knew of, which I saw, was the concentration camp of Dachau. What other concentration camps existed apart from Dachau I do not know from my own knowledge. I heard that thirty-three smaller camps already existed in the shape of police camps in the middle of Germany, and apart from that in northern Germany near Esterwegen, E-s-t-e-r-w-e-g-e-n, which in itself was supposed to have been a justice camp, later on inmates were also billeted. The first camp, namely, Dachau, was a camp in which first of all were incarcerated the political opponents of the regime. After the seizure of power the Reich government endeavored to make sure that those persons who were opposing the new regime or who could oppose the new regime would not hurt the government by putting them in that camp. The first camp of this sort which I knew was Dachau.
Q. Who was it that created the Dachau camp and who was the first commandant?
A. The first commandant of Dachau was the then Oberfuehrer Eicke, who also took care of the installations.
Q. Will you give us a short description of the personality of that commandant, who later on became the inspector of the concentration camps with the rank of an SS Obergruppenfuehrer, or rather attained the rank of SS Obergruppenfuehrer?
A. Eicke, as his physique would show, was strong of will, hard to the point of ruthlessness, unafraid, Qualities which during the fighting time, that is, before we took over the power, led to strong political and police persecutions against Eicke. That was the reason why before 1933 he had to flee from Germany, and he spent a considerable time in Italy. Gradually a group was formed in Italy under Eicke's leadership. When, after the seizure of power, Eicke returned, he was put in charge of the installation and leadership of the first concentration camp by Himmler. As collaborators and helpers he used all those men with whom he had been together in Italy.
According to my conviction, with reference to the development of the concentration camps, it was a misfortune that man in particular was put in charge of their leadership, because Eicke, as I already mentioned before, in his nature already was very hard and ruthless.
He, and his man also, looked upon every political opponent as their personal enemy who had to be destroyed, and that opinion prevailed, even after Eicke's release, that is, shortly after the beginning of the war, within the ranks of those men who had gone through his school, in other words, within the ranks of the protective custody leaders and block and commando leaders. It prevailed secretly and it developed into those cruel acts we saw in concentration camps. Eicke himself considered or regarded the concentration camp as his own sphere of power and he guarded it against any intruder. I myself had quite a few clashes with him in my endeavor to change the administrative orders of the Reich for his particular sphere of work, or rather to put them into effect in his particular sphere of work. However, we skipped all these regulations and unfortunately he was supported rather than impeded in this by Himmler. Eicke, with reference to his mental capacity, was above the average. He was an industrious and hard-working man and he worked himself up from a simple private to a successful division commandant, or a general.
Q. Persons were turned into concentration camps on the basis of a protective custody order, isn't that correct? That protective order had its legal basis in the order of the 28th of February, 1933, which was issued as an emergency order by Hindenburg at the time. That particular regulation has the following title: "Decree of the Reich President for Order and Protection of the State". It is signed by Hindenburg, Adolf Hitler, the Reich Minister of the Interior, Frick, and Justice Minister Guertner.
MR. ROBBINS: It seems to me that this is an extremely leading question. Dr. Seidl has been talking here for three minutes, and then he asks the witness, "Is this correct?" I should think he could state his questions in more concise form.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the order of Hindenburg which you are reading - is that in the document book?
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, this order, or rather decree, of Hindenburg is not in the document book. However, the International Military Tribunal in its sentence referred to that particular decree and that is the reason why I didn't think it necessary to read the text of this decree, which is rather short. The prosecution itself did not introduce the decree.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is that your question is too long. What do you want the witness to say? What do you ask the witness now?
DR. SEIDL: The witness, after I have told him the basic law of that particular custody decree, is to state what agencies could issue protective custody orders.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, that is the question. The witness may answer.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, you just heard my question. Would you tell me now who at the respective times was entitled to issue protective custody orders?
A. As far as I know, protective custody orders could only be issued by the Reich Security Office, in other words, the Secret State Police or Gestapo.
Q. And nothing changed in that matter until the end of the war?
A. I know of no change.
Q. In the concentration camps, in other words, there were prisoners who had been sent to the concentration camp on the basis of a protective custody order of the Gestapo or the Reich Security Office. The agency or office which was in close connection with these camps, in other words, was the Gestapo, or then later on the RSHA. It would be only too logical to put the concentration camps under the RSHA or the Gestapo. Why didn't that take place?
A. The reasons for that are not known to me. All I can give you is my presumption, and I presume that it is correct if I say that the reasons lie in the personality of Eicke and Heydrich.
The concentration camps, according to the law, according to the Gestapo law of 1936, undoubtedly lie in the administration of the Gestapo, because in that particular law it says clearly the state concentration camps will be administered by the Gestapo or Secret State Police. In other words, at the time the necessity would have existed to place Eicke, SS camp commandant, under the orders of Heydrich, who was in charge of the Gestapo, Eicke, however, was the man who by far had the longer time in service and was older than Heydrich. Heyrich was the more intelligent, more ambitious man, and as far as I know their relationship, and as far as I could observe it in the course of the years, there were quite a few tensions, and I am convinced that Eicke wouldn't have served under Heydrich's orders. That seems to have been the reason for Himmler to place the concentration camps, and later on the inspectorate of the concentration camps, outside the jurisdiction of the Gestapo or the RSHA, respectively, as an independent organization. I cannot think of any other reasons.
Q. What other prisoners were in the concentration camps, I mean, apart from the political prisoners?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A In the course of the years many groups of people could be encountered in the concentration camps: asocial elements, conscientious objectors, Jehovah's Witnesses, professional criminals, homosexuals, and other groups.
Q Who was in charge of putting these people into concentration camps--responsible for it, rather?
AAll the persons who were sent to the concentration camps were sent every time by the Gestapo.
Q Then the Reichs Criminal Police Office did not have anything to do with it?
A I don't know that.
Q How did the RSHA and particularly the Gestapo--in other words, office IV RSHA--take care of their State police affairs in the concentration camps? How did it deal with those matters?
A In every concentration camp, as an outside office of the RSHA, there was the so-called Department VI. Through that office the RSHA took care of their matters in concentration camps.
Q The Department VI, in other words, was the long arm of the Gestapo or of the RSHA in the camps. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q What, in detail, were its matters that the political department dealt with in the concentration camps?
A The political department was in charge of all the matters of inmates as far as they were of a police nature. For instance, interrogations, all the files of the inmates, transfers, and all other things that had to be taken care of through the police matters. The tasks were carried out by officials, by criminal officials, who had been transferred to the camps by the Reichs Criminal Office. These officials, during their activity in the camps, also were under the supervision of the RSHA. They were under the RSHA economically and in disciplinary matters.
Q The camp administration, with reference to what you just Court No. II, Case No. 4.said---what were their tasks?
A The camp administration had to take care of economy and also the guarding of the concentration camp people. By "economy" I mean the billeting, feeding and clothing of the inmates, as well as of the guards.
Q Is it correct, therefore, when I say that neither the inspector of the concentration camps nor the chief of the Gestapo, or the RSHA respectively, could be Chief of the Concentration camps because one superseded the others' field of activities?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q In other words, who could be called the chief of the concentration camp?
A If there ever was such an official position--and if there had been such an official position--then Himmler himself would have been the only one who could have taken care of that, and he alone could have been Chief of Concentration camps.
Q What were the tasks of the camp commandant, in detail?
A The camp commandant had to take care of the guarding in the camp. Furthermore, with the help of his officials who assisted him, he was in charge of the feeding, clothing, and billeting of the guards and inmates. Furthermore, he was responsible for the medical care. For all those tasks he had collaborators; he had an administrative leader and also the necessary medical equipment, as well as the doctors.
Q What were the groups of the SS that formed the guards? How were they organized; under whose supervision were they?
A The guarding of the concentration camps in the course of years varied. When I came in 1934, the situation was like this: Eicke recruited the guards himself. He took young people who hadn't been in the service yet, and older age groups who had already complied with their military service. The time of service, with reference to the guards in the concentration camps, was not computed with the service served in the army. Later on, from those guard groups which was not a Court No. II, Case No. 4.compact group, the Death Head Standarten developed.
With these Death Head Standarten the time of service was computed together with the army service. In other words, they were already soldiers. With reference to the entire organization, they were formed and trained and paid according to army regulations. When Eicke, at the beginning of the war formed the Death Head Division, he transferred the Death Head Standarten that already existed into that division. There remained only Sturmbanns, which then, later on, were kept as independent "Wath" groups. As a result, they were called according to the names of the camps, for instance, Wachsturmbann Dachau, or Mauthausen. The highest number of guards, I believe, was in 1944, approximately 35,000 men. Out of those 6,000 were SS members, and the remainder came from the Reichskriegerbund, or from "Volksdenkibe". The Army and the Luftwaffe also provided guards. And that made the situation as it prevailed in the second half of 1944, approximately.
Q With reference to the camp commandant, the protective custody order leader, and the leader of the Guard Sturmbann-they were under the supervision of the camp commandant?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q What do you understand by "protective custody camp" as opposed to the regular concentration camp?
A The protective custody camp was that part of the concentration camp in which the inmates were billeted.
Q Where was the entire administration of the concentration camp lodged, and where were the administrative and supervisory offices of the Sturmbann, of the Guard Sturmbann?
A The administration of the concentration camps--or, rather, the Kommandantur was lodged outside of the protective custody camp. However, still within the area of the concentration camp. As far as the Guard Sturmbann was concerned, they were not always lodged within the area of the concentration camp. In other words, not within the barbed wire fences of the concentration camp. There were also camps in Court No. II, Case No. 4.which the guard Sturmbann was outside of the actual concentration camp, however, immediately next to the concentration camp.
Q Where was the offices in charge of the camp administration, and where were their office?
A The superior offices of the administration was the administrative office, ("Verwaltungsamt"). Later on, the Amt D IV, for the inspector of the concentration camps.
Q How many camps existed until the beginning of the war?
A Until the outbreak of the war, there were six camps.
Q Did you inspect a concentration camp yourself before the outbreak of the war?
A Yes.
Q What were the inmates doing? And, with reference to those camps you saw, what did they occupy themselves with?
A The inmates were employed in the workshops of the camp and also in all other installations with reference to the supplying of a camp, and to keep good order. Part of the administration of the camp, in other words, kitchen, laundry, libraries, dispensary and also the workshops, which dealt with the maintenance of the camps: carpentry shops, electrical shops,locksmiths workshops, and, later on, bakery and butchery. Furthermore, the inmates were occupied with taking care of the various maintenance jobs which occurred in the camp every day.
Q Who was in charge of these workshops where these inmates were employed, before the outbreak of the war?
A These workshops and all the workshops I mentioned, were under the supervision of the camp commandant until I believe 1938.
Q What were the reasons for the change of these workshops into economic enterprises which were not dealt with according to commercial principles, and who was responsible for that change? Which one was the first, original change?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A The number of concentration camp inmates increased in the course of the years. Therefore, these work shops increased also, so that quite soon they produced more than the camp needed. Here came the first appearances of corruption. That was the reason why Himmler ordered -- it was approximately in 1938 -- that these workshops be placed under the supervision of the WVHA. The first enterprises were as Economic Enterprises of the SS -- and at first only in Dachau -transferred to the WVHA.
Q With reference to this change of these concentration camp work shops into commercial enterprises, was that agreed to by Eicke, or, what was his attitude in the whole matter?
A Eicke fought against this transfer to the WVHA of the work shops, because thus he lost control over these work shops and also the right of disposal of the entire production and the results of these enterprises. In other words, he fought against it quite seriously.
Q When were all these matters taken care of later on?
A This resistance of Eicke was eliminated by itself when he was relieved in 1939 or 1940 and went to the front with the Death Head Division. However, the resistance prevailed secretly until the end of the war within the ranks of the old camp commandants. I could show that by the fact that camp commandants tried to form black work shops, apart from those that were already in the camp, in other words, such work shops which would not be under the control of the WVHA.
Q With reference to those work shops in Dachau, they were under the WVHA. That was the first change of its kind, wasn't it? And I ask you when did that occur?
A That occurred approximately in 1938.
Q The German Ausrvestungswerke, was that part of the group that was incorporated in the holding outfit at the outbreak of the war? When was it that the DWB was created?
A The development was somewhat different. The nucleus of all economic enterprises of the SS was in Dachau, which were developed out Court No. II, Case No. 4.of the work shops of the camp; these economic enterprises of the SS in Dachau in 1938 were surrendered to the WVHA.
The following year, that is 1939, these economic enterprises were changed and thus developed the Deutsche Ausrvestungswerke, DAW. These DAW's in the course of time installed more work shops and enterprises in the remaining concentration camps. At Buchenwald, for instance, at Sachsenhausen, and also in Neuengamme later on, the DAW dealt first of all with work shops that worked with timber. In other words, they were the first of its kind. Later on, or rather, already in 1937, independently from this entire development the DEST was developed, that was the first enterprise in Oranienburg. These two enterprises were the first two. They were formed together in the DAW, or, rather, DWB, as a holding company which was created in 1940.
Q What other enterprises were created in connection with the concentration camps?
A In connection with the concentration camps, apart from those two enterprises mentioned, no other enterprises were created or the other enterprises had no immediate contact with the concentration camp, whereas the DAW of the DEST had direct connection with the concentration camp.
Q After the outbreak of the war, where was the largest part of the concentration camp inmates transferred to, after the outbreak of the war, as I said before.
AAfter the outbreak of the war, no transfer of concentration camp inmates to the outside took place. The inmates even during the first years of the war were mostly used in the concentration camps themselves. If and to what extent inmates were also transferred to work shops outside of the concentration camps during the first years of the war, I do not know from my own knowledge, because at that time I had nothing whatsoever to do with labor assignment.
Q The first inspector of the concentration camps, Eicke, then, joined the Army from 1939 to 1940 -- went to the front and was killed.
**essor as Commandant of the Concentration camps?
AAfter Eicke had left, Obergruppenfuehrer Heissmeier, as Inspector General of the concentration camps and SS Death Head Groups took care of these camps. However, I do not know for how long. Then the concentration camps were incorporated into the Fuehrungshauptamt. Under these two authorities, Gluecks, as inspector of the concentration camps then carried out his activity.
Q Could you give us a short description of the personality of SS Brigadefuehrer Gluecks?
A Gluecks was approximately 50 or so. He was an easy-going civil servant. He was sick, and he took care of most of his official matters from his office. He didn't work over average. I only knew him from 1942 on, when I was charged with the labor assignment, and I also dealt with matters outside of Oranienburg, in other words, to control the camp, and he also did so. However, I an under the impression that prior to that time, he did not quite deal with these matters as he should have.
Q What did you do yourself until the spring of 1942, and what did you have to do with concentration camps, and what exactly was your task as Chief of the WVHA in connection with these concentration camps?
AAfter taking the economic enterprises in 1938 or 1939 I dealt with these work shops, or, concentration camps; as chief of the WVHA I had not more to do with the concentration camps as such, than with all the other units of the Waffen-SS. Most of the economic matters met in our organization. There were no other activities apart from those mentioned.
Q What other agencies of the Reich party, etc., had functions in connection with these concentration camps?
A The Reich Ministry of the Interior is the first one I should mention here. The Reich Ministry of the Interior after 1941 had to be consulted first in all construction matters, because these construction matters up to that year were under the Reich Construction Court No. II, Case No. 4.within the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
Only after Kammler joined the WVHA, the authority was issued to him to also deal with construction matters independently, and it was transferred from the Reich Ministry of the Interior to the WVHA. One I have not mentioned at this point is the Reichrechnungshof, who up to a certain time was in charge of auditing all accounts, also those of the concentration camps.
Q In March 1942, the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler told you that he had made up his mind to put both Brigadefuehrer Gluecks and the Inspector of the concentration camps under your orders. What were the reasons that Himmler gave you for his decision.
A I was called up to Himmler's place. At that time he told me approximately the following. In the Fuehrer's headquarters, a meeting took place which dealt with the most important problem of the time, namely, with the labor question in the armament industry. That question at the time, or, rather, at that moment of the war, had reached its peak, had become the most important, he said, and a man was put in charge of that particular thing who had particular authority by the Reich for all the enterprises he was to take care of in this matter. Gauleiter Sauckel was being chosen for that position. He was to become the plenipotentiary general for labor assignment. During that meeting, they also discussed a question that all concentration camp inmates be used in the assignment to various tasks for that purpose. Thus there would be for the concentration camps, a new and particularly important task. He, Himmler, was not under the impression that Gluecks could cope with the task, and, furthermore, it was primarily an economical measure. He had no one else for that task than myself, as I was his economic expert, and, therefore, he made the decision to assign me to a task and to incorporate the concentration camps into the WVHA so that Gluecks could be under my supervision.
Q What did you answer Himmler at the time?
A With reference to this new change I was surprised and perturbed because the WVHA was one of the biggest main offices of the Reichsfuehrer SS. I had to cope with such a great field of tasks that it took all my energy. I drew Himmler's attention to that fact in particular, and I told him that up to that date the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was being taken care of by two high leaders who had no other task and that they could therefore put all their energy into the administration of these concentration camps, and for that reason it would be impossible to assign me to such a task, I who was already in charge of a main office, so that I would receive an additional task on top of all the others.
Apart from that, I thought it very difficult, if not impossible, to set up an organization which was built up in a police and military manner and that was to be taken care of by an administrative central office. I therefore proposed to him that he transfer the Inspectorate of the concentration camps where it belonged logically, to the RSHA. However, he did, not follow my suggestion because he saw the preeminent economic importance of these camps.
Finally he did comply with my wish to the effect that he thought I should only take care of the labor assignments and that at least in that field of tasks, in the interests of the entire armament, I should see to it that there would be no disorder. He wanted to, and he promised me, that at the latest, at the end of the war, he would find a final solution, in other words, that he would transfer the Inspector of the concentration camps to the RSHA.
In spite of my objections to that, I could not argue with him, because he had recognized the importance of the whole task, and I therefore agreed to take over that task.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you have us the witness give us the date when Himmler put the concentration camp inspectorate under his charge? It was in 1942?