What were the reasons which caused you to call the commanders before you, and did similar conferences take place subsequently?
A. After the Inspectorate for concentration camps had been transferred to us, I had a first conference on 24 or 25 April, 1942, when I called the camp commanders together with the workshop managers to my office in Berlin. On that occasion I explained to them the new plan of organization resulting from Himmler's orders regarding the jurisdiction of concentration camps which had been transferred to the WVHA. I pointed out to them that the only cause for this incorporation was the question of allocating labor, and that consequently this was moved into the very foreground of the tasks and duties, particularly those of the camp commanders.
As far as this labor allocation was concerned, the workshop managers of the economic enterprises in concentration camps weren't any less interested; and between these two, and right from the beginning, there were considerable discrepancies regarding the allocation of prisoners. The commanders were trying, as before, to get hold of experts without having to send them to the firms which came under the WVHA, but they were interested in starting their own workshops and black-market firms.
I tried, during this joint conference between the camp commanders and workshop managers, to do away with these discrepancies by drawing the attention of these two groups to the much higher aim of the armament tasks which we were facing.
I stated further in this order what my points of view were concerning general principles and directives regarding working hours. I said, in fact, "This employment must be truly exhaustive in order to achieve a maximum output." I would attach importance to an explanation particularly of the conception of "exhaustive". I believe it has been translated "exhaustive" in the English. The word "exhaustive" has a double meaning in German. On the one hand it means exhaustive from the point of view of exhausting all possibilities; and then it means exhaustive from the point of view of tiredness of getting exhausted. In English "exhaustive" has a very clear meaning, namely, the meaning of the exhausting of possibilities. What I was trying to say here was that there should be well-planned utilization of the proper labor allocation, and I was not thinking of the exhaustion of individual men. Likewise, in the case of the formulation contained under figure 5, which says "working hours should be without limits", we are concerned with the limits of time.
Up to that time, as far as I am informed, working hours, generally speaking, were subject to the hours from 0600 hours to 1700 or 1800 hours. Of course, it happened that working parties of prisoners, because of weather conditions such as fog, etc., either left or arrived late, or didn't even leave at all. For instance, as I have myself experienced on one occasion, it did happen that entire truck convoys, loaded with fresh herbs which had been collected in the fields along the road, simply had to be left standing over-night because they arrived at 1700,1500, or 1900 hours and the detainees or the prisoners had already fallen out, had already retired. Consequently, these fragile herbs perished, more or less, which of course, considering the tremendous quantity we were concerned with and the importance they had for products made from them, represented a very considerable damage.
Here, therefore, the labor allocation was to become more elastic, and in fact later on it did become essential that prisoners worked two shifts, in other words, even at night. There was a day shift which they worked one week, and a night shift which they would work the other.
That is what I was trying to say in this connection when I said that working hours had no limits because for the duration, as it said later on, the length of working hours as such, was, after all, to begin with, decided by the camp commanders alone.
Q. Figure 7 of this order deals with a better guarding system. Who had suggested this step?
A. This suggestion came from Himmler. It was connected with changes in the labor allocation, with the mandatory consequences of this new arrangement.
Q. Part of document R-129 is a letter written by you after the transfer of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps to the WVHA. The letter itself is not dated, but the contents show that it was written after 3 March 1942. The letter would seem to show that at the beginning of the war there was a total of six concentration camps.
Now let me ask you: By whose order were these camps constructed?
A. Up to the outbreak of war, the camps were constructed by Inspector Eicke, who had a construction department of his own. The order for this purpose was given by Himmler in every instance.
Q. The same letter shows that in the years 1940-1942 nine additional camps were constructed. Let me ask you: Who ordered the construction of these new concentration camps between 1940 and 1942, who built them, and who had jurisdiction over the so-called Youth Protection Camps?
A. The order for the installation and construction of all concentration camps always came from Himmler. This second series of the years 1940 to 1942 was initially built by this construction department which I have mentioned previously, of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. Approximately at the end of 1940, however, it was transferred or turned over to the WVHA, so that the camps built after 1941 were built through the construction department of the WVHA. The approval and planning for these camps, however, until the beginning of 1942, was still in the hands of the Reich Ministry of the Interior, and up until that time we had in fact to obtain permission for the carrying out of such construction work from the Reich Ministry of the Interior, because we of the WVHA only had independence regarding construction work after the spring of 1942, which was the time when we ceased to be dependent upon the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
This, in fact, was the first success which Kammler who joined us at the time -- scored, who succeeded in becoming independent of the Reich Ministry of the Interior for construction purposes.
The Reich Youth Camps-- which I had included in this report of mine, since Himmler wanted me to compile a comprehensive report about the camps even when they didn't belong to the WVHA-- were subject to the jurisdiction of Group Leader Nebe of the Reich Criminal police Department.
Q. How is it possible that the RSHA and the Leadership Main Office, the FHA, established their own camps?
A. That I don't know myself. I had heard about it at the time; I had heard that in occupied territories--that is to say, in the East-- they had constructed their own camps; not many, though, I don't know how many there were. Presumably it was the Leadership Main Office, the FHA, in order to have workships directly behind the front. I heard about it, and I reported it to Himmler. I requested that here too, in order to prevent a splintering up of jurisdiction, he should withdraw this jurisdiction, this independent jurisdiction, from the other main departments.
Q. I shall now turn to document NO-504, which the Prosecution submitted as Exhibit No. 41. It is in the Germar document book II on page 75, and it is on page 70 in the English text. This is a report which you wrote on May 1942 to the Reichsfuehrer SS, the subject of which is the consultation of the WVHA with the Reich Ministry of Finance with regard to the budget of the Waffen SS.
I want to ask you, in connection with this document: How do you explain that only 11 concentration camps were recognized by the Reich Ministry of Finance?
A. The negotiations which are the subject of this report were negotiations regarding the peace-time budget, even if they took place in May 1942, because even during the war, and apart from budget questions of a war-time nature, we had a peace-time budget. That, of course, referred to all those positions which, after the war, would remain in the hands of the Army. That is the case here in this report which, for instance, deals with 11 concentration camps. What this means, or what it is saying, is that at the end of the war the concentration camps still in existence at that point would all have to be dissolved, with the exception of, first of all, eleven, since for those the peacetime budget means would not be set aside. In fact, one sentence below the figure says that the approved extent quoted in the peace-time budget of the Waffen-SS is such and such. And that, of course, also applies to the concentration camps.
Q. Figure 3 of this report states literally and I quote: "The Reich Ministry of Finance has expressed its special satisfaction regarding the reorganization of the WVHA, and recognizing this Main Office as the highest Reich Administration Department of the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police has, after a short debate, approved the following leading positions."
My question to you is this: Did the WVHA, as an independent administrative body of the Reichsfuehrer SS, in fact carry out all the functions which it was to have?
A. No, it did not. I had already previously said this; I had said that ends had been visioned, or had been drawn up, which had not been reached, due to objections raised by the other main offices.
Q. The Reichsfuehrer SS, following your report dated 30 April 1942, answered to you on 29 May 1942. That is document NO-719, page 74 in the English and 79 in the German, Document Book and I quote from it verbatim:
"On the whole, I quite agree with all points. I think, however, that it should be stressed somehow that no change of policy took place regarding the questions of a reexamination of the custody orders. Otherwise, the opinion might arise that we arrest people, or keep them in custody after they have been arrested, in order to get workers. For this reason, the emphasis on and clarification of the fact that re-examination of custody order remains unchanged and stays independent from the labor allocation in the economy. Besides that, in giving 100 percent priority to the labor to be gotten out of them, I feel that the camp commanders have to care for the education of those fit for education."
In connection with the letter from Himmler to you, I want to ask you this:
Did you share, or did you communicate this view of Himmler's to the camp commanders?
A. After all, I did not call the camp commanders together myself or participate in the conferences, with the exception of the one which I have mentioned to you. I probably handed this letter over to Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks, as was my habit. That is Department Group D. I presume that he made it the subject of a conference; that is to say, the next time a meeting of commanders took place he probably talked about it.
Q. The letter also speaks of the re-examination of protective custody orders. Is it correct that even after the transfer of the concentration camp inspectorate all these matters were dealt with by the RSHA?
A. Yes, that is correct. The examination of protective custody orders was not a matter with which the WVHA occupied itself; it was a matter for the RSHA.
Q. Exhibit No. 44 of the Prosecution was a business plan of Department D of the WVHA for January 1943. It is Document No-1288, on page 82 in the German document book II, and on page 76 in the English version. There won't be any need to go into the details of this plan for the distribution of work, which is signed by the head of that Department Group, Dr. Kammler. Only Department C½ might be the cause of the remark "the department for the construction of concentration camps and the KGL." The KGL presumably means prisoner of war camps does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Right now I want to ask you, did Amtsgruppe C generally occupy itself with the construction of prisoner of war camps?
A. I have no knowledge of the fact that Amtsgruppe C ever constructed prisoner of war camps.
At that time I did not see this, I did not see this plan. I presume that here we are concerned with one of Kammler's rather farreaching aims which he was in the habit of setting for himself and which, as I said this morning, at the beginning of 1945, he actually achieved by having Himmler -- who, after all, was Chief of the Reserve Army -- give him charge of the construction organization of the Army without my knowledge. Nothing is known to me about the fact that the WVHA ever planned or constructed prisoner of war camps.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, in Exhibit 36, which is the chart that we were discussing before --
A. I am sorry, but I did not understand, Your Honor.
Q. Exhibit 36, the chart; the organization chart of the WVHA which we were using before. Do you have it?
DR. DEIDL: I think I shall have to draw the attention of the witness to the fact that it is still the organization plan attached to the brief of the Prosecution regarding the organization of the SS.
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, I have it.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. You have it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this paper bears your signature, does it not? That is, you certified that it was correct?
A. I am sorry, I cannot hear the German properly. There isn't sufficient volume.
Yes, I said earlier that, materially speaking and as far as it contains the tasks and the personnel question, this plan is correct.
Q. All right. You said more that that, but we will not discuss it.
Now, look at the paper, Amt C-1.
A. Yes.
Q. General construction.
A. Yes.
Q. What does it say right underneath that?
A. I still can't hear you properly.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you hear me, Mr. Frank?
MR. FRANK: Yes, I can indeed.
THE PRESIDENT: (To the Interpreter) Try again.
THE WITNESS: It says there, "Department C-1, General Construction Tasks."
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. And then what?
A. And then it says, "Construction work of the Waffen SS."
Q. And then what des it say?
A. "Construction of concentration camps and prisoner of war camps."
Q. Well ---
A. "Construction of the German Police and Construction of the Allgemeine or General SS." Those are the departments contained in this Department C-I.
Q. Well, then, isn't it true that Amt C-I did have something to do with building concentration camps and prisoner of war camps?
A. I cannot hear the question, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: See what is wrong with the witness's receiver. Perhaps the switch is not turned on.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. I will restate the question. It is true, isn't it, then, that Amt C-I had a good deal to do with building concentration camps and prisoner of war camps?
A. It says so in this plan. I have said that it never came to my knowledge that the Department C-I had built prisoner of war camps.
Q. Well, the fact is that you say so in this plan, don't you?
A. Yes, I do; yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Seidl.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. May I just interpose one question? My question had been aimed at the point whether, according to your knowledge, that group had actually constructed prisoner of war camps or not.
A. I have no knowledge that Department Group C did build prisoner of war camps.
Q. As Exhibit 46, the Prosecution submitted a document dealing with the organization and tasks of Amtgruppe W. It is document No.-116, on page 123 in the German document book, and in the English text on page 105. I want to ask you this: who compiled this report, and what was its aim?
A. This compilation comes from a member of Staff W. Just who compiled it at the time is something that I can't say. It was meant to be an instructional document in the case of lectures before members of the armed forces, which had been asked for during courses of instruction for quartermaster officials and the like.
Q. I now turn to Exhibit 47 of the Prosecution, part of document NO-489, on page 156 in the German Book II, and at page 113 in the English. Figure 1 states, among other things literally:
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't that 498? I thought you said something else.
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, 498; thank you sir.
Q. (Continuing): It states, under figure one, verbatim:
"The following service departments of the WVHA, and effective as of the 1st of September, 1942, will become independent agencies:
"(a) The Building Inspectorate "(b) The Chief Economic Post "(c) The Clothing Department of the Waffen SS; and "(d) The Payroll Department of the Waffen SS."
My question is: What do you consider in this connection to be independent agencies?
A. An agency becomes independent when the commader assumes sole responsibility, in other words, with regard to which he has certain independent powers; when, for instance, he becomes independent regarding disciplinary action, promotions, the question of commanding the members of the staff, transfers; when, in fact, he is no longer, on each individual point, depending upon instructions from above. That is what we call independent agencies.
Q. 0 I now turn to discussing a number of documents contained in Prosecution Document Book 3. According to the picture given by the Prosecution, it deals with internal connections in the WVHA. The first of these documents is NO-583, which the Prosecution presented as Exhibit No. 50. It is on page 30 of the German Document Book No. 3, on page 27 in the English version. It also contains the letter from the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to you dated 13 July 1942, in which he requests you to get in touch with Reich Minister Funk in order to obtain additional foreign currency for the carrying out of certain tasks and I want to ask you, why did Himmler ask you of all people to act as an agent with Reich Minister Funk?
A. During this particular period, Himmler was mostly staying at his headquarters in Eastern Prussia. During this time, that is to say, after Heydrich's death, he personally directed the RSHA. It is my guess that before that time Heydrich himself had always obtained such foreign currency from the Reich Minister of Economics. At any rate, before this time, I had never been asked to handle such an assignment. He also presumes as he says himself -
(The witness' answer was interrupted by a breakdown of the sound equipment).
THE MARSHALL: All persons in the court room will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Prosecution Exhibit No. 51 is a document submitted as an affidavit by Rudolf Hoess, the former Commander of Auschwitz, dated April 5, 1946, Document NO-3668, PS. It is on page 31 of the German Document Book 3, and on page 35 of the English text, that is an affidavit which, among other things, I quote from at the end: "That mass executions by gassing were carried out by direct order under the responsibility of the RSHA. All orders for these mass executions came directly from the RSHA." End of quotation. I should now like to ask you if you gained knowledge of these orders which were issued by the RSHA, according to the testimony of Hoess?
A. I received no knowledge of this order at all. It did not go through the WVHA.
Q. Did you discuss the concentration camps with Kaltenbrunner, the chief of the RSHA before negotiating with him in any other way?
A. No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What was the name of the head of the RSHA?
DR. SEIDL: SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner.
JUDGE MUSMONNO: Kaltenbrunner, yes.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I shall now turn to Document NO-385, which is Prosecution Exhibit 54, Document Book 3, page 45 of the German text, and page 43 of the English text. This is an order from Himmler, dated 5 December 1941. Witness, has that order ever been carried out?
A. Yes, this order was carried out. In Mauthausen and Flossenburg we had big training centers. The heads of the latter training camp were under the direction of civilian craftsmen, when that training was put into effect.
Q. The next document which I wish to introduce here is document NO-500, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 55. It is a teletype from Himmler to SS-Brigadefuehrer Gluecks, the Inspector of the concentration camps, which is on page 45 of the English text, and on page 50 of the German text.
It says, among other things, "Large economic tasks and orders will confront the concentration camps in a few weeks. SSGruppenfuehrer Pohl will inform you of the details." Here is my question. "What were these economic orders which are referred to here? Did you inform Gluecks of the details.
A. I had no knowledge of at all of this teletype letter, but I assume that this is the transfer of armament plants which was carried out by Gluecks in the following months. Thereafter there arose a need for armament workers in the concentration camps. That I think must be the subject of the teletype.
Q. In Document NO-1292, which is Prosecution Exhibit No. 56, Document Book III, page 51 in the German text, and page 46 in the English text, the increase in the deployment of prisoners of war is mentioned. What do you know about the increased employment of prisoners of war by the inspectors of the concentration camps?
A. The monthly survey which I received through Maurer, concerning the employment of inmates, did not contain a breakdown of the employment of inmates according to the political and the asocial elements, not was their nationality mentioned. All I could see was that the higher figures of inmates were such that I could not form an impression later if and how many prisoners of war were in concentration camps. As far as prisoners of war or what I assume were prisoners of war were in concentration camps, I thought that for some reason they had been captured by the Security Police, and then sent into the concentration camps. Of large groups of persons sent from the Stalags to the concentration camps. I never heard anything at all. Obergruppenfuehrer Kammler in his organization at plans never referred to the prisoners of war. He did not deduce for himself that prisoners of war were present in the concentration camps in any number so that they could be used for his construction plan.
I an not very well informed on this point.
Q. There is another letter from ss-Brigadefuehrer Kammler, Chief of Amt-C, of 16 May 1943, Prosecution Exhibit No. 57. It is Document NO 1215 in Document Book 3 on page 57 of the German text, and on page 55 of the English text. It is a letter from Kammler addressed to you, and concerns the allocation of concentration camps inmates for armament purposes. Now I want to ask you: "How was the transfer of concentration camp inmates to armament factories carried out?
A. First of all certain armament plants were transferred into the concentration camps by either housing them in existing work shops, or building the necessary work shops for that purpose, and when new work shops were erected, Kammler participated in a responsible manner. The inmates were transferred to a place in Buchenwald by the Gustloff Works, and a large workshop was near the women's concentration camp Ravensbrueck which belonged to Siemens-Schuckert, and also at Neuengamme in the workshops of Mauser. They were, I think, the first ones to follow that method, and, Kammler in his capacity as Chief of Amtsgruppe-C the construction service, together with the competent chief in the armament Ministry, who at that time was Staatsrat Schieber carried out these negotiations. From this document I have to point to the paragraph where he said that as far as the attitude of the WVHA was concerned to obtain the best results for the SS on the balance sheets, he hoped that those figures would be achieved, and then he expressed a view which I cannot understand to this day. He touched a question there which was not connected with this field of work namely that the SS was not at all interested in this transfer of armament plants but it was rather interested in the extent in which armament production could be increased. Later on, by order of Himmler, the Chief of the Leadership Main Office, the FNA, became interested, and he desired a priority delivery of arms from the plants which had been transferred into the concentration camps that is to say, pistols or rifles manufactured by Mauser, and things like that, but in that way Kammler seemed to regard it here, so far as the financial effect was concerned, that there was no classification.
For that reason the file note for Dr. Hohberg is without any point at all. I don't think that Dr. Hohberg was ever active in this particular affair. I never heard anything about it.
Q. On 22 November 1943 you addressed yourself to the commanders of the concentration camps in a circular letter which deals with the working hours of inmates. This is Document 1295, Prosecution Exhibit 60, Document Book 3, page 64 of the English text and page 65 of the German version. This letter says, among other things, that working hours ordered for inmates of 11 hours a day must be maintained during the winter months and that exceptions could only allowed if darkness set in too early for inmates to return to the camp in good time. What were the reasons for you to write this letter?
A. In this case I always followed the general practice which was observed and which frequently changed during the last years of the war as far as working hours were concerned, and in other cases I had to observe orders and instructions from the OKW. As early as 1943, for instance, the 48 hour week had became a 60 hour week with us in the free labor market, and in 1944 it even became a 72 hour week. This regulation also applied to working hours in concentration camps; and as far as the 12 hours are concerned, I changed the 12 hours to 11 hours, taking into consideration the general situation, such as food and so forth.
Q. The next document which I wish you to look at is Document NO-1270, which is Prosecution Exhibit 61, Document Book 3, page 73, of the German version, and in the English text on page 66. At the end of this document there is a file note of a conference concerning the OSTI, which had taken place on 13 February 1943 and in which you took part, as did SS-Brigadefurhrer Loerner, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Volk, SS Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Horn, and Dr. Hohberg. What was the subject matter of that conference, and what are your explanations to this document? I wish to call your attention to the second last paragraph of the file note, where it says the following:
"With regard to the question whether the Jewish properties were to be taken over under trusteeship or de facto, the SS Obergruppenfuehrer's standpoint was that the machinery and other equipment required by the Osti must be acquired from the Reich Ministry of Economics.
It follows, therefore, that the capital of the Osti must be considerably extended."
Before you answer my question, I must point out to you that later on we shall deal with the whole complex of the Osti in all details. We refer to this document now only because the Prosecution used it as part of its evidence concerning the organization of the WVHA.
A. This document -
MR. ROBBINS: Excuse me. I do not understand the question. Will you repeat it please?
Q. This was my question: What were the details of this conference? What were the reasons for which this conference of 13 February 1943 took place, and what, in particular, do you have to say to the second last paragraph of this file note, where the question is being dealt with as to whether the machines needed by Osti should be purchased by the Reich Ministry of Economics?
A. This conference had been requested by Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Horn, as the business manager of the Osti, which at that time was not yet founded. He came to Berlin and brought along this enormous questionnaire with about 30 questions on it, which I was unable to answer. The whole conference lasted little more than ten minutes, and I told him, "You had better go to Lublin first, to the General Government, and look at what things are like there. I can not judge them here from Berlin, and then this conference should be much easier." That was the end of the conference as such. I only answered three questions which he put to me. Question One was, "The East Industry, GMBH should use the Jewish labor of the General Government within the framework of the armament production, and should also use the property there. Is that order complete?" The second question was, "Is this order to be primarily regarded as a political or a police matter or as an economic matter.?" I told him at that time, "Both". The question at the bottom concerning the purchase of machinery which Osti needed for its enterprises was probably put as he left. My view was, basically speaking, that such machines as were necessary should be found and purchased.
As I said before, when that conference took place, I was very little informed about conditions and was therefore unable to answer these many questions. It was a very brief conference.
Q. There is another file note which comes from you yourself. It is dated 7 September 1943, and that was presented by the Prosecution as Exhibit 63. It is Document NO-599, Prosecution Document Book 3, page 75 of the German text and 74 of the English text. This file note concerns the taking over of Jewish labor camps by the SS and Police Leaders in the General Government. What is your explanation of that file note? What were your considerations when you took over these camps, and what purpose was to be served by this?
A. At that time, in the autumn of 1943, labor had been started by order of Himmler, which had the aim to improve the very confused armament production in the General Government. By the transfer from Western Germany to the Eastern territories there were to a considerable extent private firms who exploited loval labor, and thus more or less had become war profiteers. Himmler himself saw those conditions and had therefore reached that decision. The immediate negotiations for this purpose, the issuing of orders for this task, he delegated to Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, who was at that time the Higher SS and Police Leader at Cracow, and Himmler's deputy in the General Government who had frequently reported to him about these problems, and when he returned some days later, he came and saw me and discussed with me how this order could be carried out as far as it concerned me. Some of these orders concerned the taking over of ten labor camps which the SS and Police Leaders had founded in the district of Lublin. The whole of the General Government had, I think, five districts, each of which was directed by an SS Police Leader under the orders of the Higher Police and SS Leader in, Cracow, and each one of these five SS and Police Leaders in his area had become fairly independent, and so here again, within the area of the SS, conditions were somewhat muddled and confused.