Q Another main office was the Personnel Main Office. What were its tasks, who was in charge and what were its connections with the WVHA?
A The Personnel Main Office worked on the personnel data of all administrative officials, no matter in what department they worked. That is to say, all applications for promotions would reach the Personnel Main Office. For many years Obergruppenfuehrer Walter Schmidt was in charge and at the end, from 1944 on, I believe, it was Obergruppenfuehrer Von Herff.
Q Another main office was the Office of SS Justice Administration of Justice. Who was in charge there?
A The main office SS Court, which was in Munich up to the end of the war, was directed for a long time -- I think up to the first years of the war -- by Obergruppenfuehrer Scharfe, and, after his death, up to the time of the collapse, by Obergruppenfuehrer Breithaupt, for all matters concerning legal proceedings of both the SS and Police.
Q Another main office was the Reich Commissioner for German Nationals. What were his tasks?
A The main office, I believe it was called Reich Commissioner for the Consolidation of German Nationals. This was to look after German nationals who had returned to the Reich. He was to settle them somewhere. It was directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Breifeld.
Q Now I wish to speak of the so-called German Central Agency, the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle, and it was directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Lorenz. What were the tasks of that main office?
A This main office did the preliminary work for the office which I have named just now. It brought Germans back to the Reich and, until they were settled, it looked after them. It was directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Lorenz, as you say.
Q Now the last main office to be mentioned here was the Inspectorate for German National Schools under Obergruppenfuehrer Heissmeyer. What was the task of this office? What did it do?
A The Institutions for National Political Education were under the German Reich Ministry of Education and Heissmeyer had a double position within it. In that capacity he was concerned more with the organizational supervision of those institutions. He had to engage school teachers and exercise a certain amount of influence on the training schedules. That is to say, his task complemented those of the Reich Ministry of Education and he took a certain amount of influence on institutions which is the reason for the establishment of a main office.
Q Now, the central agency of concentration camps was the Inspectorate for Concentration Camps. Did the Inspectorate for Concentration Camps have the position of a main office? What were its tasks, and who was in charge of it?
A One could not say that the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps had the position of a main office. As an independent organization it was never equal to the main offices. It was immediately subordinated to Himmler. The task of this Inspectorate was to work on all matters of all the concentration camps in the field of administration, supply, and, in collaboration with the RSHA, to work on executive matters, or matters concerning the executive tasks. Its leader, up to the time he was called to the front, which I believe happened around 1939 or 1940, was Obergruppenfuehrer Eicke. After him, for a short time, was Obergruppenfuehrer Heissmeyer, who became Inspector-General of Concentration Camps, and SS Death Head Units, but he was relieved of his duties and succeeded by the then Brigadefuehrer Gluecks.
Q Was Brigadefuehrer Gluecks during a certain period of time - immediately under the Chief of the SS-Leadership Main Office, the FHA.
A The Inspectorate of Concentration Camps belonged and was part of -- I think -- from 1940 to 1942 - the SS-Leadership Main Office, the FHA. For that reason, Gluecks must have been at that time subordinated to the Chief of that main office, the SS-Leadership Main Office, the FHA.
Q Do you believe that Obergruppenfuehrer Huettner, as the Chief of the FHA had any considerable influence on the administration of concentration camps? Was he in that position?
A I do not think he would have been in a position to do so, because he was lacking the expert knowledge.
Q In the documents submitted by the prosecution, the name "Higher SS and Police Leader" occurs frequently. Gas this an original organization? What was the position of the Higher SS and Police Leader, both at home and in the occupied territories?
A The Higher SS and Police Leaders were Himmler's represent atives within their respective areas. In the Reich itself their competence, generally speaking, was the same as the arrangement of an Army district; within that competence the Higher SS and Police Leaders carried out all functions which were part of the competence of Himmler as chief of the German Police and SS. That is to say, they concerned themselves with police matters, general SS affairs, and also, up to a point, with questions of the Waffen SS. The Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories had the same functions and tasks, but their authority and power was increased because they had to take very strong executive measures in all spheres of life which were directed by Himmler
Q Between the chiefs of the 12 main offices, or, chiefs of the main offices, was there close collaboration between them?
A That sort of collaboration, unfortunately did not exist. As I have already described the Reich Leadership, SS, that is to say, the whole complex of those 12 main offices was not housed in the same building in Berlin as a sort of general staff, but they were scattered all over Berlin and, later on, over the whole of the Reich, Himmler himself was not the man to desire such a collaboration.
Q What was Himmler's attitude to that question, and what was the explanation of that attitude, and what were its results?
A The real reason for this unusual type of organization can only be found in Himmler's character. Himmler felt somehow that if he organized these things too closely formed such groups and these various main offices would be tied together to a close staff, which is the usual, the obvious thing to do in a military organization, that this might be dangerous to himself. His whole method was aimed at preceding the old political law of balance of power and to form a group which might conceivably oppose him one day, the old motto "Divide et impera", "Divide and Rule". He felt uneasy and uncertain. I myself told him, I once proposed to him, because collaboration was not too satisfactory and difficult, to have representatives of the various main offices on his staff together. With a sly smile he declined this and said, "I think we will leave it as it is. Let each one work on his own and no groups can then be formed, and so forth," Of course, that method did not promote collaboration and team work. Throughout the time I worked there, I did not attend one single staff meeting where all the chiefs of the main offices would be gathered at round tables.
He asked each one of us to see him alone. Never did I experience that two men came to see him at the same time. Whenever he met somebody, he asked to see him, talked to him alone, dismissed him, and nobody else knew that this man had called on Himmler. I never saw two chiefs of main offices in Himmler's office at the same time.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take the customary recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom take their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, before the recess you explained the manner in which the twelve main offices of the Reichs Government and the Reich Leadership of the SS collaborated, and worked with each other. In this connection I ask you what impression you gained during those years of the character of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler?
A Himmler came from a family of teachers, and, exactly, as leader of the police he represented the customs of this high position to the people. He was clever without being extremely intelligent, that is, without having the extreme intelligence of Heydrich. He was Sull of ideas. The most contrary nature of these ideas was not carried out in personal creatives but naive methods. That gave them the character of a theoretical nature. Again and again during these years he told me of many ideas, which did not quite fit into the fields of tasks. All these things are matters with which he was occupying himself, Lebensborn, Ahnenerbe, the Koenig-Heinrich-Stiftung, ExtrasteinStiftung, all these things were additional tasks which had nothing to do with the police and the military organizations, and they were typical hobbies. On the basis of his character, he was also endeavoring to keep his power. He did not do that by striking an adversary with a sharp dagger, but he did that in his own soft manner, and even by being kind, or he used other methods. He did not start immediately by being soft. That particular characteristic of his which was the certain insecurity I already mentioned before, he also showed to us, his closest collaborators. In other words, he showed us the contrast between the two main points, or one of the two points. Personally my relations ship to him, aside from a few arguments here and there, which resulted from contrary ideas or opinions, was always good.
Q Witness, most people imagine Himmler to be a man of brutal manners, a hard man?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What was that. I did not catch that. What kind of man?
THE INTERPRETER: A hard man.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Did you make an observation here which would support this opinion?
A Well, a hard man in the sense in which I look at it, in other words, a person who harbors in himself a power which fights against those persons who do not agree with his own conceptions of things, I unfortunately was not. On the contrary, according to my own experience, he was one of the most winning instruments of Hitler. If any one else would have been considered as soft, or, rather if any one had ever knocked on a table with dishes with his fist, it would have been Hitler; he simply could not do that. In this connection one only could consider him suave, even to a point of being a "sissy" to use a sharp term. As many other men, I would say that most of them, even all of them, were aware of Himmler due to the fact he belonged to those who were over "relais", who could sort of exercise a specll of his dominating will over the entire organization, regardless of Hitler, or the Gauleiters, or even Goering and the practice even occurred ---
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Suppose we get to the point and not wandering away from those issues. I would like for him to do some illustrating. The translation came through that he, Himmler, was one of the most winning instruments of Hitler. Then thereafter there was a metaphorical expression about his striking the dishes, or the table. I did not get the concept of that, and I would appreciate you asking him, or to get an explanation from him by a question, which permits us to get a little more clearly just what was intended.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, you heard the question, that it did not come through entirely in the translation just how Himmler apparently re-enacted to Hitler's intentions, and I would appreciate if you would repeat that?
AAccording to the sense, I said that Himmler freely reacted too much to the recognition of Hitler's intentions. In other words, that he did not have the power within himself, to like other men, simply slamming his fist on the table; that, therefore, he was one amongst the many others who were the people who did not have the will power to fight Hitler. In other words, he was a willing instrument of Hitler's.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I don't get the difference between Himmler and Hitler. It is mixed up. If I understand it correctly, that Himmler was under the influence of Hitler, is that what I understand. When you refer to him, you refer to both Hitler and Himmler, and the third, the last is unsatisfactory; we don't know whom you mean; whether Hitler or Himmler themselves, when you give such a complicated description.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, if I understood you correctly, you mean to say the following: That Himmler as a result of his entire character, was Hitler's instrument without any willpower, is that correct?
A Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Oh, I see. Very well. Thank you.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, in speaking of Hitler right now, I should ask you how often did you see Hitler personally within your field of tasks?
A I stood before Hitler personally, twice in my life. On one occasion in 1939, I was introduced to him after being appointed Ministerial Director, and, in July 1944. I saw him together with Frank, that is, the defendant Frank here. Then I was ordered to carry out the reform of the Wehrmacht Administration. In both cases Himmler was present and introduced. Hitler then approached me and shook hands with me. That was all.
Q In Count I of the indictment, it is alleged that not only the defendants had conspired to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that other persons had been involved. I wish to ask you now, witness, were there any discussions between you, Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, and the chief of the other main offices of the Wehrmacht, did you have any conversations amongst each other, or, did you have any meetings for the purpose to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity?
A I have already mentioned before that in all of those years during which I was subordinated to Himmler, I never participated in one single discussion which Himmler carried out with all of his main office chief, or with a few of them at the same time. Even amongst the main office chiefs, I have never seen such official meetings. Whatever these persons had to do with each other was always taken care of by telephone. It may be, that once in a while one man would visit the other. Of course, I was in the Leadership Main Office, the FHA, and what we had to discuss with a few of the speakers, regularly, or irregularly, but official meetings never occurred.
Q I refer to March 1942, within the organization of the WVHA there was a change insofar as on the basis of an order by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, the Inspectorate of the concentration camps of Amtsgruppe-D was incorporated into the WVHA, and, after that date, there was a provision for the Inspectorate of the concentration camps, and in answering this question, I want you to limit yourself to your own section, because we shall discuss this point a grain later?
A The Inspectorate of the concentration camps had an independent position as far as this was possible with regard to its position in the SS Leadership Main Office, the F.H.A., that is, so far as you are talking about being incorporated into the SS and WVHA, I personally was never aware of the fact that the inspectorate of the concentration camps from 1940 to 1942, was incorporated in the Leadership Main Office, the F.H.A. I only found out about that on the basis of documents which I studied. We always thought that the Inspectorate of the concentration camps was directly subordinated to Himmler.
Q You mentioned before that you had obtained knowledge of this through the study of documents. By that do you mean the study of documents of these trials?
A Yes.
Q What were the reasons for incorporating the Inspectorate of concentration camps into the WVHA, and, what were the orders with regard to the reorganization which the Reichsfuehrer-SS gave you at that time?
A In March 1942 Himmler asked me to come to his place, and he told me approximately the following: The war has now reached its climax. The most important thing, or the most important problem before us not is the procurements of labor for the Armament Industry. A discussion took place at the Fuehrer's Headquarters and orders were issued to the effect that a Plenipotentiary-General for labor allocation would be appointed by the Fuehrer. He was not to byepass the labor in the concentration camps, with regard to these questions, they were in the foreground. He said in other words, "I have to have a man who can tell me the possible effect, the new Plenipotentiary-General will have, and, who on the other hand, will see that the decree of Hitler with regard to the labor allocation question will actually be carried out."
"I cannot use Gluecks for that particular purpose. He is too soft and he is simply not fit for that purpose as the whole matter is an primarily economic matter. You are my economic matter. You are my economix expert and I must assign you to that duty. I made up my mine to turn over the concentration camps to the SS-WVHA."
Q The Prosecution, with reference to the time after the third of March, 1942, introduced two organizational charts for the WVHA. The document No. 111 was introduced to this Tribunal, as Exhibit 38. It is organizational chart for the WVHA which was made on the 3 March, 1942 by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and drafted by him.
I would like to interpolate here that this organizational chart was shown to the Tribunal when the Prosecution introduced Document Book No. II. I shall put this organizational chart before you now, witness, and ask you if the chart is a correct picture of the organization and branches of the WVHA.
A (Chart exhibited to witness) I know this plan, this chart. This chart gives a correct picture of the organization of the WVHA.
AAccording to the organizational chart, what were the main tasks of the WVHA?
AAmtsgruppe A dealt with all questions of troop administration of the Waffen-SS. In other words, with questions of economy, of pay, of legal question, and with personnel questions.
Q What was the task of Amtsgruppe B?
AAmtsgruppe B dealt with all the tasks in the field of troop economy. In other words the fields of food, clothing, billeting and, later on , also with question of transportation within the WVHA.
Q What were the tasks of Amtsgruppe C's, and who was in charge of that Amtsgruppe?
AAmtsgruppe C dealt with all the questions in the field of construction. It was last directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kammler.
Q Could you give us a short description of the personnality of Ober gruppenfuehrer Kammler, and the special tasks which were assigned to him by the Fuehrer?
A Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kammler joined the WVHA in the Fall of 1944 by Himller's orders. At that time he was construction directoror manager-- of the Luftwaffe in the Air district of Brandenburg.
Kammler was a man of outstanding intelligence. Not only was he a wonderful construction engineer but also a son of an old Pommerian officer's family. And as a cavalry officer he was an excellent soldier, and he was also honorary professor at the technical school at Charlottenburg, with scientific matters.
Physically, he was tall slim, with a haughty nose, he was elastic just like a bow which is eternally strong. I could not understand it quite often how this man coped with the tasks with which he was assigned in as short a time as one day. He was everywhere! Apparently he slept only during his official trips in his car at night. And neither did he float on the surface, but he managed somehow to know all his fields of tasks to the very bottom. As chief of the special staff which during the course of the years all tasks gathered which were assigned to him, he was possessed of an agility which could not be explained. He called his men, members of the Luftwaffe, of the Waffen-SS, of the army, of the navy, who had been transferred to this particular staffto his office at any time of the day or night regardless of whether it was noon-between twelve and one--or at three o'clock in the morning. He did not pay any attention to that.
Not only he was in charge of the construction department in the WaffenSS,but he also managed to have say in the construction department of the police. And finally he succeeded early in 1945 in becoming the construction chief of the Army.
In his manners he was very ambitious-but in good sense because his ambition was never that of an ambition to become important. There was extreme energy in him. Towards the end, not only did he take care of these huge construction projects--of transferring the armament industry-not only did he participate in the program of the jet-propelled planes but he also influenced it in a good way.
The development of the entire "V" weapons were under his orders. I believe it was a series of fifteen to sixteen kinds of weapons. And then, on top of all that, he found the time to take over an active command at the front and to fully direct the use of these reprisal weapons from Berlin by dashing to one battery and then he was back at his office again.
As I said before, I simply couldn't understand how to carried out such tasks. But he was an unusual person in every respect.
Q What do you knew about the fate of Obergruppenfuehrer Kammler?
A I have no authentic information in that respect. There were rumors that during the last months before the capitulation he was in chargo of that division and that he was killed. Other people say that he is in Russia. I did not know.
Q In his capacity as chief of the special staff he was immediately subordinated to Hitler?
A Yes that is correct.
Q What were the tasks of Amtsgruppe W, which is also mentioned or contained in the organizational chart?
A In Amtsgruppe W all economic enterprises were included tasks resulted from the character of the single enterprises.
Q I shall now come to the tasks of Amtsgruppe D which was incorporated into the Main office as an Inspectorate of Concentration Camps on 3 March, 1942. At that time Brigadefuehrer Gluecks was in charge of it?
A Yes, that is correct.
A Where was the Main Office of the Inspectorate, and did anything change with that particular department when that division was incorporated into the WVHA?
A The Inspectorate at the concentration camps had its main office in Oranienburg. That is approximately 35 kilometers from Berlin. Even after the incorporation into the WVHA the main office remained there.
Q. What did the incorporation of the concentration camps with the WVHA actually mean?
A. A practical result of that incorporation was actually only the control and the organizational, or the ministerial supervision of the entire labor assignment of the concentration camp inmates in the armament industry.
Q. Did that incorporation result in the fact that the individual competences of the WVHA were Interpolater with the activities of the other agencies of the WVHA?
A. The other Amtsgruppen were not touched at all by this incorporation. It was a personal order of Himmler to me, with which I was personally affected in my work. However, as to the circumstances of the other Amtsgruppe, nothing changed with reference to their tasks as a result of this now measure.
Q. In the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, did anything change in the administration of it through this change?
A. Only insofar as from that time on, Inspektor Gluecks had to report to me with reference to questions of labor assignment.
Q. Through the incorporation of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, did any other Amtsgruppe of the WVHA receive new tasks?
A. As I have already said before, no, because they were not at all touched by that new incorporation.
Q. Is it correct, witness, that the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, even after the incorporation into the WVHA, was the central point in all questions of concentration camps until the end?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. With reference to the news and radio service in Oranienburg, was that in the seat of the Inspectorate; in other words, in Oranienburg? Or was it transferred to Berlin when this office was incorporated with the WVHA?
A. The broadcasting net which we had, our own broadcasting net, was that of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps; it remained unchanged. In other words, there was no transfer to Berlin, that is, to the WVHA.
The WVHA did not have a news agency of its own. With reference to our news, we had to rely on the teletype facilities which were already there. However, all other characteristics remained at the Inspectorate in Oranienburg, which signify the personality of an Inspectorate. The Inspectorate retained its own personnel, it retained its own administrative office; it had its own Judge Advocate, and a few other things.
Q. Did the reports that went to the commanders of the concentration camps come from the WVHA in Berlin, or from Amtsgruppe D?
A. The instructions to the camp commandants came from Oranienburg, through the Inspectorate of the Concentration camps. It is possible -however -- I cannot recall that I ever gave instructions to the camp commandants myself.
Q. And to whom did the camp commandants report?
A. The camp commandants reported to their superior office, in other words, to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps in Oranienburg.
Q. Is it correct that the Reichsfuehrer SS, Himmler, regularly gave direct orders and instructions to Amtsgruppe W, and to be exact, and not through you?
A. I know that he gave orders directly to the concentration camp commanders. However, I cannot prove that he actually did that regularly. I only received orders directly from him which were in connection with things which referred to my field of tasks.
Q. Did you participate in the official meetings which took place at regular intervals with the commanders of the concentration camp at Oranienburg?
A. I did not participate in one single official meeting which the Chief of the Inspectorate at Oranienburg had with the concentration camp commanders.
Q. If one of the concentration camp commandants wanted to talk to his superior about any matter, to whom did he report?
A. He reported to his immediate superior, in other words, the Inspektor of the Concentration Camps, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
Q. How often did Obergruppenfuehrer Gluecks report to you in the WVHA, and how long did these meetings usually last?
A. Gluecks came to the WVHA quite regularly every Friday afternoon, to Berlin, to see me, and we discussed the questions of labor allocation. It also happened that when I wanted to go to see my family at Oranienburg, if I didn't have any time on Friday, I went to see him in his office in Oranienburg on Saturday morning in order to carry out the discussions there.
Q. So some of these discussions were about labor allocation. Who was Gluecks accompanied by when he went to the WVHA in order to report?
A. I do not recall that any other man was over with him, apart from Standartenfuehrer Maurer.
Q. What were Standartenfuehrer Maurer's functions in Amtsgruppe W?
A. Standartenfuehrer Maurer was chief of the Amt W 2. He was competent for the labor allocation of the concentration camp inmates.
Q. Did the WVHA at any time have the authority to carry out executive measures?
A. The WVHA as an administrative agency could not and did not have this authority.
Q. What was the only main office which was in a position to take care of police and security measures and other executive measures?
A. The RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office only was competent in these matters.
Q. Did you yourself have the possibility to send somebody to a concentration camp?
A. Neither more nor less than any other citizen of Germany. I had to either go and see the Gestapo, or I had to write to Kaltonbrunner. I did not have that authority by virtue of my official position.
Q. Who had the authority to issue so-called protective custody orders?
A. Protective custody orders could only be issued by the RSHA, or the Reich Security Main office.
Q. Is it correct that once in a while a reviewing of the sentences had to be carried out, in other words, with reference to the order of arrest, and that the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office, was the only agency responsible for that?
A. I do not know from my own experience what the regulations were for the carrying out of a custody reviewing procedure. The RSHA the Reich Security Main Office, was competent for that task.
Q. Was the WVHA, or were you yourself, in a position to carry out the release of one of the protective custody inmates or prisoners?
A. No, I was not.
Q. With whom did the concentration camp commanders discuss executive questions?
A. Only with the Chief of Amt IV in the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office.
Q. The Chief of that office was Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. Did you ever see Gruppenfuehrer Mueller at the Gestapo headquarters yourself?
A. I only went to see that man once, in all those years of my activity; that might have been before the war. I cannot tell you now exactly what it was all about. However, I take it that it was some sort of matter concerning the release of an inmate.
Q. With reference to matters of concentration camps, did you ever have any discussions with the Chief of the RSHA, Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner, and did he ever visit you, or did you ever visit him in his office?
A. I never discussed concentration camp matters with Kaltenbrunner. I never visited him in his office, and neither do I recall that he ever visited my in my office.
Q Where did you have to go to if you wanted to have a concentration camp inmate released?
A In those particular cases when I was interested in the release of one of the concentration camp inmates I did that by means of a private letter to Kaltenbrunner.
Q Did Gruppenfuehrer Gluecke, the Inspector of the concentration camps, report to you regularly with reference to the various discussions which he had with the chief of the Gestapo?
A No, he never did that. I never heard anything about the contents of these conversations.
Q With whom did you have official connections, apart from Obergruppenfuehrer Gluecks, with reference to Amtsgruppe D?
A The only person apart from Gluecks, with whom I had further official discussions regularly, was Oberfuehrer Lolling, the chief physician of the Inspectorate. He came to see me once a month. He then gave me the monthly report on the sickness and death rate development in the concentration camps, which was based on statistics.
Q What were the deductions that you could make on the statistical reports of Oberfuehrer Lolling, and how far were you thus in a position to see what happened in the development of the health situation of the inmates.
A On the basis of these statistics I could recognize the health condition of the inmates. The cases that occurred were separated, according to their nature, with curves, and also the development of the death rate. I could recognize, in other words, in what camps the sick or death rate was higher, where it was lower, and I could see what this was based on, what the reason was for that, because these single diseases were listed below with other statistics again, and as I said before, I could see the development of the death rate.
Q What was the position of the concentration camp commanders under the chief of the Inspectorate with reference to the chief of Amt D?
A They had the position of independent commanders and they were responsible for their own field of tasks.
That is why all the organs which belonged to an independent office or agency were at their disposal, namely, Command leadership, administration, and medical equipment. These three were requirements of an independent Command leadership.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: While you are right there on the reports that you say you got from Dr. Lolling, what did you find out as to the health or the death rate from these reports on the inmates? You said you could see the condition and the death rate. What did you find out, or what was your conclusion from these reports?
THE WITNESS: I could deduct from these statistics, in other words, where the diseases had increased, where the death rate had increased, or where it had been reduced. I said that. I said that I could see from those curves all those various things on the basis of those drawings that were submitted me.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did they give you any figures?
THE WITNESS: Of course. I mean, it was statistically listed. I could see from month to month, let us say, the death rate is fifteen per thousand, or twenty-five per thousand, on the basis of these figures I could recognize if the death rate was rising or if it was sinking, and I could find out what the reasons were for this development.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, did it give the figures, the number of dead each month?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not receive these total figures in those statistics.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When you received the percentage of deaths, weren't you sufficiently interested to ascertain the actual number of deaths?
THE WITNESS: Well, I always based myself on the statistics. In other words, on the percentage. I did not have any information on the total number of the deaths, and how they were distributed on the various
JUDE MUSMANNO: Then you did ascertain the actual number of deaths.
THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, if you received a report which said 2.5 deaths, now didn't you carry through to learn just what 2.5 meant in numbers?
THE WITNESS: I never received a written report, in other words, in text form. The report which was submitted to me consisted of nothing but curves. It was statistically written down in curves. I never received a report which was written -- shall we say typewritten -- and that stated for every camp so and so many people died, or so and so many are sick, but it was just a preliminary work that was carried out. Lolling received from all the camps the sick reports and he compiled them and made one big statistic, and that was the statistic that was submitted to me, that I could see clearly and immediately what the development of the camps was.
JUDGE MUSMANN: Don't let speak in such abstractions. You actually received a report showing the percentage of deaths?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I received a statistic development of the deaths, but I never received a report.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Please answer the question directly. Did you receive a percentage report?
THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You said a few moment ago that you did, that you would receive a report showing a certain percentage per thousand of deaths. Now did you or did you not receive such a percentage report?
THE WITNESS: Well, when I say "report" I mean a written report concerning the developments, not a statistic report.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I understand you to say a few minutes ago that it was a statistical report.
THE WITNESS: That is correct. When I say "a statistical report" I mean the curves of development which are in the statistics.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Then you received a chart with the curves showing whether the deaths were increasing or decreasing.