Q General, the documents which you have submitted I assume are known to you. I have reference now to Document No. 134 contained in Document Book IV for General Lanz on page 52a.
This is an affidavit given by General von Butler and on page 52a he says that he can still remember that from the Commander-in-Chief Southeast, at least on one occasion, but perhaps more often applications were made to rescind the order concerning the treatment of captured Italians in Kephalonia or at least modify it.
General, the facts contained in the documents submitted by you-were they know to you at the time in question?
AAs far as I know, yes. I had the feeling that the army group and the army group above it held a similar opinion to mine.
Q You mean army groups E and F?
A Yes, I do.
Q Who was the Commander-in Chief of Army Group F at that time?
A I believe it was Fieldmarshal von Weichs.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, would you kindly give us the document, the book and the paging to which you have just made reference?
DE. LATERNSER: Certainly, your Honor. It is contained in Document Book IV for General Lanz. The Document number is 134; it is on page 52a of the German document book and I assume according to what Dr. Sauter said just now that it is the same pagination in the English document book.
JUDGE CARTER: There is no 52A in the English.
DR. LATERNSER: I am just informed it is on page 52.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q General, two cases are mentioned in your record where in the case of the disarming of the Italians you did not act according to orders in those two cases. I now have reference to Document Book 19 on page 6 of the German. I am extremely sorry to say, your Honor, that at this time I am not able to give you the English cage number. It is Document NOKW-1780, on page 9 of the English Document Book.
This record sheet of yours, of 10 July 1943, two cases are mentioned where when the Italian army was being disarmed, and in the fighting connected therewith, you are alleged not to have complied with orders. General, what were those two cases?
A I believe I have stated before this was without a doubt in the first case my negotiations with Vecchiarelli, and in the second case my conduct or the measures I took towards Gandin.
Q Now let us look on those two cases with this in mind. In the case of General Vecchiarelli, the event took place in Athens, didn't it?
A Yes.
Q How many Italians were at that time stationed in the Athens area?
A I could not give you the figure.
Q As compared to German troops perhaps?
A Considerably more.
Q Can you give us an approximate indication how many more there were?
A I could not commit myself to a figure but to give you an estimate, the proportion might have been one to five.
Q In other words, the situation was highly critical?
A Without any doubt. This is how I described it.
Q And something had to be done in order to eliminate the danger?
A Correct.
Q General, is it possible in a case like this for the superior who issues the order to insist on a precise carrying out of the order?
A Of course he can. It's his good right.
Q Because the order was not against international law, was it?
A Not in my opinion.
Q General, from the point of view of the superior, would it not have been the most ideal solution to attempt and achieve the aim, namely to take all arms away from the Italians?
A It is quite possible that my superior thought so, I thought differently.
Q Was it not the intention of Army Group E to avoid violence and fighting between Italian and German troops?
A I assume so.
Q Let us assume, General, although it did not happen, your attempt to eliminate all this through negotiations had failed and the Italians, after having kept their small arms, would have started something? Would the situation not have been extremely dangerous even then?
A That would have been my sole guilt and responsibility and I would have had to face the music afterwards.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I submit that Dr. Laternser has been going around. It has been very clearly submitted in great detail before.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is conscious of that fact and has been giving consideration to it for several minutes. We do not wish to limit you, Dr. Laternser, but I think we must avoid going over matters which have been previously presented. The present objection will be sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. General, about Kephalonia and Korfu, I would like to ask you a few questions. That situation again was particularly dangerous for the German units, wasn't it?
A. Certainly.
Q. And was it not essential to act swiftly in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. When you received the order to take measures against Gandin, had you reached decisions of your own to fight Gandin and to eliminate the dangerous situation?
A. I am not quite clear what time you are talking about, what period of time you mean, which is so important here.
Q. General, when was the situation really dangerous.
A. The dangerous situation arose when Gandin began to resist.
Q. When you heard of Gandin's resistance, what did you cause to be done?
A. I attempted first to eliminate resistance by negotiating with him.
Q. Very well. For how long did these negotiations go on?
A. Several days. It lasted, as I remember it, until about the 15th of September.
Q. Who reached the decision to attack Gandin with arms? Was it your decision or were you ordered to do so?
A. It was a basic order. Only the period of time was left to me.
Q. You had not reached that decision yourself?
A. I wanted to settle everything peacefully which I have explained.
Q. Well, let us leave this point now, and I would like to ask you one final question about your record sheet. General, your defense counsel said yesterday that you had been judged to be too unstable a character because in the course of the Kephalonia and Korfu incidents you had not shot all officers. General, did you make a statement at any time about that?
A. I don't think you have put it in quite a correct manner.
The record sheet refers quite clearly to two incidents which I have talked about here and which in my opinion are quite definite and clear cut cases. They do not refer to one specific matter.
A. Although your defense counsel did so, you do not explain this by the fact that you did not shoot all Italian officers?
DR. SAUTER: Just a moment, General, please. May it please the Court, I object strongly to this questioning. What General Lanz has told me as his defense counsel is none of the business of the counsel of another defendant. They have no right to control and check up on me and ask my client what he told me. That is my basic attitude and I strongly object to this questioning by Dr. Laternser.
DR. LATERNSER: May it please the Tribunal, may I say something about this point? Defense counsel, having stated following up an answer given by General Lanz, that in his opinion the judgment given in the record sheet by my client was given in that form because in defense counsel's opinion General Lanz had not all Italian officers shot. If he makes a remark of that sort, it must be left to me to clear up that remark by putting questions to the defendant. It is not only my right; it is even my duty. That the situation arose at all is not my fault but that of General Lanz's defense counsel. That is what I wish to say about that and I would therefore be grateful if the Tribunal would allow me to pursue this questioning.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. General, you know Fieldmarshal von Weichs, don't you?
A. I believe I know him a little, yes.
Q. General, you are as objective towards him as you are towards General Zervas, I trust.
A. At least as objective.
Q. Do you think, General, that Fieldmarshal von Weichs included this passage that in two cases you had not complied with orders for the reason that you had not shot all Italian officers in the case of Kephalonia and Korfu?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I don't believe the witness is competent to answer what was going through Fieldmarshal von Weichs' mind at the time he gave General Lanz a recommendation.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: In that case I have no further questions.
BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q. Dr. Weisgerber for General Speidel. May it please the Tribunal, I would like to put a few brief questions to the witness. General, when you were with your Corps in the Greek area, did you have official contact of a personal nature, or in writing letters to or having telephone. calls, with General Speidel, the then Military Commander of Greece?
A. When I was staying in Athens before my service in Epirus, I and General Speidel had frequent points of contact because the establishment of my Corps staff was connected with his own staff. When I went to Epirus, as I remember it, I once called on General Speidel when I chanced to be in Athens, which happened infrequently, but we did not discuss anything particularly important. I knew General Speidel from the old days. We are fellow country men and so I called on him. As far as I know, General Speidel also called on me once in Joannina but I think at that moment I was on leave. In any case, I did not see him in Joannina. That much to the question of a personal exchange of opinions. As for ringing him up, I don't think I ever rang him up at all. At least, I cannot remember a case. Correspondence with Speidel himself I do not recall. If all of this would have occurred through the channels of the sub-area headquarters in Joannina.
Q. General, did you contact General Speidel at any time concerning the carrying out of reprisal measures?
A. I cannot recall an incident of that sort at all.
Q. You mentioned just not the sub-area headquarters in Joannina, General, which was subordinate to the Military Commander Greece. Do you, from the period of time of your service in Epirus, recall a case where the sub-area headquarters in Joannina suggested or ordered or carried out a reprisal measure?
The sub-area headquarters was of course in the garrison of your headquarters.
A. Yes, I am aware of that. I am just thinking about it. At the moment, I cannot recall a case.
Q. Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there other counsel for the defense who wish to question the defendant now on the stand? Apparently not. You may crossexamine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. General Lanz, you were Chief of Staff of a Corps before you became Commanding General of the 1st Mountain Division. Was the transition from a Chief of Staff to that of a commanding general a difficult one for you to make?
A. Excuse me, I think there is a small mistake here. I was not promoted commanding general from being chief of staff. In the meantime, for about two years I commanded a division.
Q. Was the transition from chief of staff to that of the commanding general of a division a difficult transition for you to make?
A. In peacetime, I had commanded a regiment in that division. I was familiar with the conditions of that unit from peacetime conditions. I found the transition not particularly difficult.
You participated in the campaign against Greece, I believe, as Commander of the First Mountain Division?
A. No, that is incorrect. In the Greek campaign I did not participate at all. I only participated in the campaign against Jugoslavia.
Q. Were you subordinate to Field Marshal von Weichs in the Jugoslavia campaign?
A. No, I was subordinate to another army, end I must say disgracefully enough, I do not know which one it was. It was that Army which was in charge of the elements on the Northern Front. Field Marshal Von Weichs commanded these elements, who advanced on Zagreb from the East. At least that is the way I remember it at this moment.
Q. After the Jugoslav campaign you went to Russia as Commander of the 1st Mountain Division; do you recall whether you were on leave at all during the months of July and August of 1941?
A. In July and August I was not on leave. In July and August I and my unit were fighting at the front.
Q. You said you had some misgivings when you received the Commissar Order; when General Reinhardt, who was your Corps Commander passed on to you the contents of the Commissar Order; did you consider that order to be in violation of the Geneva Convention respecting treatment to be given captured prisoners?
A. You must forgive me if I clear up a small mistake there. Mr. Fenstermacher, you are mixed up with another man who spoke about Reinhardt. My commanding general was General Kuebler. As for the Commissar Order I said at the time that I had my misgivings about the order and that therefore I wanted to modify it, and add that Commissars may be shot only in combat, that is how I attempted to modify it. What I said was that thereby I wanted to bring the order into a more correct form.
Q. Before you made the modification did you consider the order in violation of the Geneva Convention?
A. Whether I held that opinion at that time I cannot say for certain today. I certainly had my misgivings about the order from a general attitude, I would like to call it.
Q. Were you concerned with the legality of the order when you talk about misgivings?
A. At that time, I don't think I had misgivings about the legality. I emphasize at that time, in 1941, I merely felt that this Order was not in accordance with those soldierly concepts which we had observed up to that time, that is the way I would like to put it.
Q. General Lanz, you had gone to the War Academy and received instructions in the Rules of Land Warfare and also instructions on the Geneva Convention for the Treatment of Prisoners; didn't you think about these two, the Hague Convention and the Geneva Convention at the time you received this order?
A. It is possible, I do not want to deny that, but it is so difficult for me today to say on the spur of the moment what I was thinking about six years ago.
Q. Why didn't you refuse to pass the order on entirely?
A. I believe I have given you my reasons for that. Perhaps I may repeat what I said. I said at that time I regarded it as my unquestionable duty to pass on an order which came from the highest quarters.
Q. Even though that order was in violation of the Hague and Geneva conventions?
A. That is why I wanted to modify the order. I attempted to find a middle way.
Q. Now, General, in the course of the Russian campaign did you receive any other orders or proclamations or communications from your superior officer regarding the treatment of Commisars; I mean in addition to the basic Commissar Order?
A. May I ask you once again, what did you -- do you mean concerning the Commissar Order, or in another respect?
Q. No, I mean concerning the treatment to be given Commissars when they were captured.
A. (no response)
Q. Perhaps I can help you a little bit, General Lanz; did you receive a communication that talked about treating Commissars differently from other members of the Russian Army? You were never asked to circulate any proclamations amongst your troops to that effect?
A. I cannot recall anything of that sort at the moment, but that does not mean that it might have happened.
Q. To what corps was the 1st Mountain Division subordinate early in the Russian campaign?
A. I was subordinate to the 49th Mountain Corps.
Q. Do you recall who the Chief of Staff of that Corps was?
A. Certainly, at first it was Col. Jodl, Jodl the younger, whom we have seen here, and later on when I served in the Caucausus, in 1943 it was Col Joseph Kuebler.
Q. Will you look at this document, General Lanz, and see if your memory can be refreshed a bit about the proclamation I have in mind. This is NOKW 2105, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 617. This is a communication from the 49th Mountain Corps dated 29 July, 1941. The subject is "Proclamation to the Ukrainian Population and Farmers east of the Zbruez."
"On the 28th of this month the Division and Corps troops received a printed Proclamation in German and Ukrainian to the Ukrainian population east of the Zbruez. Further copies of this Proclamation as well as a printed summons to the Ukrainian farmers will follow today. The context of the Proclamation as well as the printed summons are enclosed in the supplement."
I think we need not read the rest, but you will note the final paragraph states:
"The loudspeaker trucks allocated to the Divisions in as far as they are not employed for enemy propaganda are to be employed for making the proclamation known to the Ukrainian population and the summons to the Ukrainian farmers."
And it is signed, for the:
"For the Corps Headquarters The Chief of Staff (signed) Jodl Colonel, General Staff Corps".Now , if you will turn to the proclamation itself, General Lanz, "The German troops have liberated you from the depotism of the JewishBolshevist elements."
Is that the way you looked at the War against Russia?
A. As far as I was concerned the war against Russia was a military affair.
Q. Then we can turn, General Lanz, to paragraph 11 of the proclamation:
"11) Political Commissars and members of the Red Army cut off from their units, are to be arrested without delay by the mayor, who is to deliver them to the nearest commander."
Then paragraph 12:
"12) Sabotage of all kinds, also to the crops, unauthorized possession of weapons, munitions, and explosives, plundering of camps and supplies, as well as the hiding of Commissars and members of the Red Army cut off from their units, or any sort of failure to carry out orders of the German commanders will be punished with the most severe means, up to death penalty."
Do you recall ever having received this proclamation?
A. I do not recall the proclamation at all.
Q. If you had received this proclamation, General Lanz, would you have distributed it to your troops and publicized it?
A. It is possible I would have passed it on, but I dont know what I would have had to add to it for my own part.
Q. You will note that in paragraph 11 a distinction seems to be drawn between political commissars and other members of the Red Army. Were you in favor of a distinction being drawn, giving different treatment to the commissars than they gave to other members of the Russian Army?
A. I was not of that opinion. That becomes clear from my attitude towards the actual commissar order which I have stressed at the beginning.
Q. If you had received this proclamation, General Lanz, do you think you would recall it?
A. Well, it is difficult to answer that. It is probable. The proclamation has been initialed by my IA, which I see from the photostat copy. It is not initialed by me. Had I received it I am sure I would have initialed it, but it is only the IA who initialed it. I see here I did not.
Q. I think you also testified that no commissars were executed except in combat by members of the 1st Mountain Division while you were in command?
A. I did not say that. It is contained in some affidavits.
Q. Do you confirm what is contained in the affidavits?
A. I can only repeat that at that time I ordered t at Commissars must be shot only in combat.
Q. Did you ever hear that commissars were shot outside of combat by units under your command?
A. Anyway, I do not remember a case where it was reported to me that commissars had been shot outside combat.
Q. If it had been reported to you would you remember it today?
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The court will recess until 3:15.
(Thereupon a 15-minute recess was taken.)
(Following Recess.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. LATERNSER: May it please the Tribunal, I would like to make a motion. Dr. Sauter has in yesterday's session, not as a question, but during General Lanz' examination presented the following argument; General Lanz had been declared too unstable a man because he did not have all Italian officers shot. This remark becomes an argument which is not admissible at this stage of the proceedings. I therefore move that it be stricken from the record.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, please, I think the Tribunal will be able to distinguish between what might be construed as argumentative and that which is evidence and the motion will be over-ruled, which will not necessitate any comment from you, with all due respect.
You may proceed.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Thank you, Your Honor. General Lanz, if it had been reported to you that commissars were executed outside of combat, would you have remembered that fact?
A It is possible that I would remember it, but it is not sure. Since those days more than six years have passed and in these six years many things have happened. I could not possibly know that six years later these events were to play such an important role.
Q To your best recollection now, were any commissars ever executed by any units of the 1st Mountain Division, while you were commander of that Division, outside of combat?
A I am in no position to give a definite answer to that. It is possible, that is all I can say. I do not remember it, therefore I cannot give a positive answer to that question.
Q Would you look at this document, General Lanz? This is NOKW 2241, which is offered as prosecution exhibit 618. This is an account, written by a private first class of the 666th Propaganda Company and the account is taken from the files of your 1st Mountain Division from the Ic Activity Report and it is titled, "The Procession of the Eighteen Thousand:"
"An endlessly long procession goes by me, the procession of the eighteen thousand. They are the same eighteen thousand who in the previous nights sought to break through the iron ring which our regiments had laid around them, who stormed the heights in senseless, bloody attacks, in front of them the German weapons, which are accustomed to talk a severe language, behind them the machine pistols of the Commissars, which cracked ruthlessly in the heaps, whenever an armistice threatened.
An endlessly long procession is going by me, the procession of the eighteen thousand prisoners who had been collected from the com fields, the dug outs, and from under the bushes of the underbrush, apathetic, dumb, without any sort of feeling of excitement concerning their being taken prisoner."
I think we need not concern ourselves with a geed deal of the literary style of the author of the report, but if you will turn to page 4 of original document- this is page 3 of the mimeograph copy, Your Honors, to the paragraph - first full paragraph on that page. For you, General Lanz, it will be the last paragraph on page 4:
" And then they pull out a little man, in blue cloth trousers and with an unspeakably common face; he had concealed himself behind the broad shoulders of the good-natured farmers from the Eastern Ukraine, ducked with a sharp laugh and cringing, hustled by the searching eye of the guard, like a rat, which is lured out of its hold and does not feel right in the bright sun. His sleeves bear no insignia, but even a blind man can see the darker places on which the red-embroidered Soviet Star with golden hammer and sickle gleamed, not too long previously. Comrade Commissar? The little one turns white, but he knows how to reply, he is gifted in speech; it takes three hours, until he is wornout, until he does not know how to answer any longer, until he agrees to everything, without contradiction. The game is over, the glance for help directed to the prisoners remains unseen; no one remembers this little rat.
He is taken aside, to a place from whence only the crack of the report comes back, not however the faint cry."
Do you remember ever having seen this particular report, General Lanz?
A No, I don't. To the best of my recollection I have never read this report. If I understood it correctly, it is a report made by a war reporter who describes these events. I don't even know to what extent a war report correspondent describes things correctly and objectively. Most probably I would have remembered this report now if I had read it at the time, but I am sorry I do not remember it. From the date, I can assume that the events must have taken place around the time of the battle of Uman, that was a very hectic time when battles were raging day and night. The scene described does not strike a cord in my memory.
Q To your knowledge it is not customary to choose commissars from the ranks of prisoners and then execute them?
A I can only repeat that the incident described here is not known to me. I don't know whether it was officially reported and reached me personally that is all I can say about it.
Q Wouldn't the 1e of your Division inform you about events of this kind, General Lanz?
A I think that is possible and even probable if the incident really took place in the way the war correspondent describes it here, but war correspondents, as it is well known, have a lot of imagination. Much has been written by war correspondents which is not true literally if one comes to the bottom of the facts. From my own person, I can only say a report by a war correspondent I do not regard in the same light and I cannot give the same value as I would give to official reports.
Q This war correspondent seemed to know what the insignia of a commissar was, General Lanz, you will note he describes it as a red embroidered Soviet Star with golden banner and sickle; that is correct, isn't it?
A That can easily be explained. War correspondents always drive at everything that smells even a little of sensationalism. Not only war correspondents do that, but all reporters do that. The commissars were of particular interest to the war correspondents which is quite easily understood and they availed themselves of all the facts about the commissars, but I don't say assumptions are facts.
Q It is customary for commissars to remove their insignias if they had an opportunity, is it not, General Lanz, in order that they not be treated in accordance with the Commissar order?
A To the best of my knowledge, the commissars soon after the beginning of the Russian campaign, discarded their insignia and also to the best of my knowledge their papers, so that they could not be recognized as commissars. One thing is certainly known to me and that is that Russian troops themselves denounced commissars, who did not wear the insignia or carry papers as one could not then establish whether or not they had really been commissars. To one extent the remarks made by the war correspondent are correct, that is that the commissars always discarded their insignia.
Q They took off their insignia just because they knew what would happen to them if they were captured as commissars?
A That is what I would assume.
Q Your opinion is that the account here is inaccurately described?
A Mr. Fenstermacher, I would not regard that as an authentic report, not official enough to judge the whole problem. Because, after all, a report by a war correspondent in my opinion has not the value of authenticity, but of course you can debate that question if you like.
Q This man, General Lanz, does not appear to be a war correspondent, he appears to have a rank, that of private first class and he is attached to a particular company apparently in the German war companies; what makes you think he is a war correspondent?
A I suppose that he is a member of a field propaganda company. Those people were war correspondents and were drafted by the German press or newspapers just for that purpose. That is what knowledge I have about that subject.
Q Now, your 1c took over this account and made it a part of his Activity Report for the period from 1 September until 31 October, 1941; isn't that an indication that your 1c at least endorsed what the correspondent states?
A That might be possible that the 1c included this report in his report, I don't know who did it in the department 1c and it would be difficult to establish that now. That still does not prove that such a report is an authentic one.
Q Let us move down to Greece now. General Lanz, you described in your biographical affidavit that the Epirus area of Greece was considered an operational zone; isn't it a fact that the troop commander in an operational zone has executive power?
A No, I believe that is an error. The troop commander has jurisdiction over his troops, by this I mean over those troops subordinate to him. He has no executive power, that is something entirely different.
Q You say you did not know who had executive power in the Epirus area, but you knew that you didn't?
A In any case, it was not I who had executive powers, I was troop commander.
Q Well, who had it if you didn't have it?
A I assume the military commander for Greece, but that is an assumption which I cannot answer. I would like to stress that because I think I have to be careful in what I say here.
Q You mean you were in Greece for over a year, General Lanz, and you didn't know what the channels of authority were down there?
A I did not say that, I did not talk of channels of command, I only said I did not have executive power and I shall maintain that assertion. I knew the channels of command quite well.
Q Do you think General Speidel had the executive power in the Epirus area, while you were in command there?
A I assume that, I cannot say that with certainty. To me that question never became acute.
Q Now, General Lanz, you said you opposed the execution of hostages; would you tell us why?
A That was a matter of feeling that is where I was concerned it was an instinctive attitude, just as many things in life are matters of attitude and feeling.
Q Did you think the execution of hostages was never a military necessity?
A That is not what I intended to say, that would depend on the situation as it arose, one cannot generalize on such a subject.
Q Did you think the execution of hostages was inhumane?
A That again would depend on the circumstances. We both know that under certain prerequisites the execution of hostages is admissible even by International law, so that in a general manner one cannot reject or support such views. Such a point of view is in my opinion dependant on the local conditions, such as they prevail at certain times. I don't think that one can generalize about such things.
Q Where were General Stettner's headquarters in the Epirus area, General Lanz?
A That was different at different times. For some time he stayed in Joannina and for another period he stayed in Velas, that was about 30 kilometers north of Joannina, then again he was in the district of Korea. That changed at different times.
Q How long was he in Joannina?
A He was in Joannina when I arrived there and then he was there, if I am not mistaken, until the beginning of October.
Q And then he moved 30 kilometers away; how long did he stay there in the second place?
A I am afraid I cannot tell you that exactly, I don't remember the actual dates.
Q Where were General Stettner's headquarters when you both were in Joannina; were you both in the same building?
A No, it was not in the same building, he lived near the northern exit of the town and I lived, or rather my official quarters was in the Teacher's Academy near the western exit of the town.
Q How far away from each other were you and General Stettner during the day when you both went to work?
A When we were both present in Joannina, we were about two kilometers away from each other.
Q Now, General Lanz, would you turn to document book 19, to page 109 in the German, 83 in the English. This is General Stettner's order of 13 September 1943, which you say you knew nothing about. Now, on that date both of you were in the same town and you were only two kilometers apart from each other?
A Yes.
Q Didn't you and General Stettner discuss the execution of hostages, especially since you had such a strong feeling against executing hostages?
A Well my attitude would certainly have represented a reason for General Stettner not to discuss it with me.
Q If you had known of this order providing for the killing of hostages at a ratio of ten to one, would you have ordered General Stettner to rescind the order?
A That is possible. In any case I would have tried to influence him to the effect that hostage measures would only be taken in inevitable or particularly urgent cases.
Q Didn't you ever ask Stettner what kind of orders he was issuing to his units regarding hostages?
AAt the moment I don't recall that we discussed the subject.
Q Now, one of the first things which was done after an attack by the bandits on your troops was to seize hostages, was it not? Wouldn't the subject as hostages be a perfectly natural subject for you and General Stettner to discuss?
A Yes, but I believe that is a conception which only became so strong here in Nurnberg that this hostage problem was in the foreground of all events. At that time there were completely different things which took up our attention, there was the band fighting, tactical measures, etc., which took up the largest part of the work. Today they are shown in a different light sometimes even all topsy-turvey.
Q General Lanz, was not one of the methods which you used to decrease the number of attacks on your troops to seize hostages?