A No. The SS was not there at that time. I was talking about the period of January 1943. At that time no SS was there.
Q To whom were they handed over?
A To the Secret Field Police - a military authority - no SS authority.
Q Did you ever talk to a Judge of a Field Court Martial about the question how it happened that a Tribunal considered a man innocent and didn't begin proceedings against him whereas on the other hand the same supreme judicial authority did not object that these people remained in prison.
A That was a Police matter, not a matter of the Field Court Martial and in such the judges used to discontinue the conversation, and they were right.
Q Did you ever find any clues indicating that the instructions given to the Secret Field Police or rather from which source these instructions were given to the Secret Field police?
A Yes, Department I-C.
Q I-C, have you any indication showing that this department I-C did not receive its instructions in turn from another source?
A I know nothing about that.
Q Mr. Colleague, earlier you dealt with the case of several Greek officers who wore sentenced because of helping the enemy. Are you aware under which terms the capitulation of the Greek Army was accepted by tho German Armed Forces, particularly what provisions were made with regard to the release of Greek officers by tho German Army.
A. Yes, I can answer that question but let mo toll you this first. Naturally you have more experience than I have in such matters because you have worked before the big IMT, but I am afraid I will have to give you a lawyer's answer to your question regarding the application of paragraph 91b.
Q. I think we can be quite brief. I merely wanted you to tell mo what you know about the negotiations.
A. The Greek officers were not released on parole.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Parole -- that he will not try to join the forces of his country which are still in the fight. That is parole -- the promise to remain in the occupied territory -- and they would not give it when the capitulation occurred.
Q. Then when individual discharges of Greek officers took place they did not give their word of honor they would not go against Germany?
A. That is what I just answered. Released subject to parole, i.e. subject to word of honour; this is the proper German expression (word of honour -- Ehrenwort).
Q. Your Honor, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination?
Any re-direct?
MR. RAPP: There is no re-direct examination, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused then.
(The witness was excused.)
May I now inquire of Prosecution as to whether or not there are any further Greek witnesses to be called.
MR. DENNEY: No, if Your Honor pleases, that's the last one which we plan to call and I must say we anticipated that defense counsel would be considerably more lengthy in their cross examination in view of some cross examination that had been conducted before and I certainly appreciate their effort to expedite the proceedings. Perhaps we could -
THE PRESIDENT: Let me interrupt further, Is there any desire on the part of any German counsel or defendant to further question these Greek witnesses?
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, we agree to the release of all of the Greek witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Upon the statement of Dr. Laternser that it is agreeable to all German counsel and to all defendants, the Greek witnesses who have been called will be discharged from the case and released as witnesses.
That is the order of the Tribunal then.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps the Secretary General could tell me the number of the last exhibit. I believe it is 498.
THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL: Yes, sir.
MR. DENNEY: I have just handed your Honors three copies in English of the portion of the document which I gave to the defense counsel. I have already distributed copies to the interpreters and the reporters, Defense counsel have a German copy. How many do you require, Mr. Stone, in English?
THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL: Three English, two German.
MR. DENNEY: We are distributing to Your Honors, three additional copies in English. These are the three English and the two German copies for Mr. Stone.
I would request that the loose pages, the ones that are not contained in the folder -- there are 39 pages -- headed "Official of the Greek National War Crimes Office and Atrocities Committed in Greece" be marked 499-A for identification.
And the certificates can be placed at the end momentarily and that the document which says "Greek Document No. 1" be marked 499-A 1 for identification. That is a letter dated Athens, September 14, 1945, together with 9 pages annexed thereto. And, then the next document in the folder which is Greek Document No. 2 -- it is requested that that be marked 499-A 2 for identification. This is an interrogation of 3 pages. And then the last document, which is 26 pages, which is the translation of Greek Document No. 3. It is a decision dated 3 December 1946. It is requested that this be marked 499-A 3 for identification.
And the last part of the document in the folder, which is 5 pages, Greek Document No. 4 -- this is a translation of the sub-titles that accompany the Greek film. It is not what we are familiar with as a talking film but a list of sub-titles and we are submitting them in advance. It is requested that this be marked 499-A 4 for identification.
And there is an additional document which we do not have at this time.
However, in order that things may be kept in order, I would ask that the certification by Dimitrius Kissopoulos be marked 499-A 5 for identification. Your Honors will note in the certification that there is one document which is not present at this time.
That, if your Honors pleases, concludes the evidence with reference to Greece except for the offer of these documents which have just been finally prepared and submitted and the film. We perhaps might ask defense counsel tomorrow to waive the 24-hour rule but we certainly don't want to do it now. We have just handed them the documents.
In connection with the matter under discussion concerning the inquiry by the Tribunal this naming, with reference to what progress has been made in connection with the order of the Tribunal concerning the notion by the defense counsel for the purpose of investigation of documents, the matter -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denny, let's have it understood that it was a ruling in which we made certain statements in the alternative.
MR. DENNEY: Your honor please, I was just about to recite the ruling. I submit that I nay state how the ruling was arrived at. I believe this was made as the result of a motion made by defense counsel and the Court's rule was that:
(a) They be allowed to go to Washington or (b) That the documents be brought here or (c) In the event those things didn't happen that certain conclusions would be drawn by the Tribunal.
In that connection I have examined the rules and discussed the matter with General Taylor and would like to say this at this time.
Defense counsel have made a motion for the production in Nurnberg of a large number of documents presumably located in the Pentagon building in Washington D.C. or, in the alternative, for permission to send two of their number as representatives to Washington to examine the documents.
The tribunal has granted this motion in the alternative.
Rule 12 of tho Uniform Rules of Procedure, Military Tribunals, Nurnberg, describes the method by which the defense counsel may apply to the Tribunals for the production of witnesses or documents.
Paragraph "C" and "D" of Rule 12 describes the methods by which documents and witnesses can be obtained if such application is ranted by a Tribunal. These provisions arc clearly applicable to the present situation and provide as follows:
"(C) If the application is granted by the Tribunal, the Secretary General shall promptly issue a summons for the attendance of such witness or the production of such documents and inform the Tribunal of tho action taken. Such summons shall be served in such manner as may be provided by tho appropriate occupation authority to insure it's enforcement and the Secretary General shall inform the Tribunal of the stops taken.
"(D) If the witness or the document is not within tho area controlled by tho United States Office of military Government for Germany, the Tribunal will request through proper channels that the Allied Control Council arrange for the production of any ouch witness or document as the Tribunal may deem necessary to tho proper presentation of tho defense.
The prosecution is advised by the Secretary General that immediately after the Tribunal granted the motion in question ho took steps to secure the execution thereof as provided in Rule 12.
The Secretary General has informed the prosecution that he has been in communication with the director of the Legal Division, Office of Military Government for Germany, United States, Berlin, and has transmitted to his a copy of the court's ruling on the application, together with full information as to the location and quantity of the documents in question.
The prosecution is further informed that the director of the Legal Division, OMGUS, is taking steps in connection with this matter and will communicate with the authorities of the United States War Department in Washington to determine whether the documents can be transmitted to Nurnberg or whether representatives of the defense counsel can be transported to the United States and admitted to the Pentagon Building to examine the documents.
It appears, therefore, that the matter is being handled strictly in accordance with the Uniform Rules of Procedure of the Military Tribunals, Nurnberg, and that the authorities are moving with all possible expedition.
The prosecution constituting the office of Chief of Counsel is subordinate to the Office of Military Government for Germany, U.S., Berlin, and through that office to the United States War Department in Washington. The prosecution does not control and can give no directions with respect to the transportation of the documents from Washington to Nurnberg nor with respect to making arrangements for the transportation of representatives of the defense counsel to the United States or with respect to the admission of the representatives of the defense counsel to the Pentagon Building. The prosecution has been endeavoring to assist the Secretary-General in every possible way in connection with the Tribunal's order and will continue to do so. However, the prosecution cannot assume responsibility for the action of both authorities to which the prosecution is itself subordinate and to which it is powerless to give directives or orders.
Rule 12 of the Uniform Rules of Procedure of the Military Tribunals, Nurnberg, imposes no such responsibility on the prosecution and clearly sets forth the channels for the production of witnesses or documents on behalf of the defense.
In view of the limited time remaining, Your Honor, I wonder if perhaps we could adjourn now.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Carter wishes to speak on behalf of the Tribunal.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I thought I made it clear this morning when we were discussing this matter the nature of the ruling of this Tribunal in regard to this matter. This matter does not come under Rule XII, and the Tribunal so held and, as a member of the Tribunal, I resent the attempt of the Prosecution to come here and overrule the holding that we have made.
When the Prosecution brings in excerpts from exhibits they are producing the records, and by the very use of them they are bound to present the whole record here, It isn't a matter of getting evidence in support of the Defense. It is a rule of law that when one produces a part of the exhibit, he is bound to produce it all for the other side to examine.
I thought I made that clear, and when you come here and say that it applies to matters of evidence pertaining to making the Defense, it is clear outside the scope of the Tribunal's ruling. It has nothing to do with it, and I think, from talking to the other members of the Tribunal, that they are in agreement that insofar as the exhibits offered by the Prosecution are concerned and the parts of them that have been offered hero, that the responsibility is on the part of the Prosecution and no one else to produce the whole instrument.
Now it is true that the Prosecution is probably in administrative matters subordinate to military government here in Germany; but this Tribunal is not, and when the Prosecution appears here, they appear as officers of this Tribunal, and in that capacity, and I say, as the order previously hold, that the responsibility rests upon the Prosecution to produce or make available the balance of those exhibits or the alterna tive therein set forth will be invoked.
Now, I hope I have made myself clear on that. Now, I am speaking for myself, and I think for the rest; if they have anything to add I am perfectly willing that they should do so.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Carter has expressed the sentiments of this Tribunal, and there is no necessity of any further comments by the other members of the Tribunal.
The Tribunal will be in recess until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until nine-thirty o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 22 August 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 22 August 1947, 1000-1730, Honorable George J. Burke, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
JUDGE WANNENSTRUM: Marshal, will you ascertain whether or not all defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, ail defendants are present in the Courtroom.
JUDGE WANNENSTRUM: Judge George J. Burke will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed, Mr. Denney.
MR. DENNEY: I should like to inquire from defense counsel whether or not they received last night, through the information center, the German copies of the section numbered 6 of the Greek report. If they did not, we took it up there.
This is the part of the Greek report to which I referred yesterday, which was not stencilled at the time. He are handing up three copies in English for Your Honors.
We will mark this, if Your Honors please - this Document No. 6, which is an interrogation - as 499-A-6.
The case has gotten along somewhat faster than we had thought, and I would appreciate it if defense counsel would waive the 24 hour rule With reference to the documents which I presented them last night. I realize that it is perfectly within their rights to stand upon it, and if they do choose to stand upon it, I will make no issue of it, but I would ap predate it, if I could proceed with the offer of 499-A for identification.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: What is your reaction to the proposition, Dr. Laternser?
- 2507 a
DR. LATERNSER: We agree.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Laternser has indicated that the proposition is accepted by defense counsel.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, Your Honor.
The certificate in connection with the report, which is 499-A/5 for identification, is offered first - I will take it a little bit out of order. That is the certification, Dr. Laternser.
This is offered in evidence as 490 B-5. I think perhaps it is easier to maintain the number and just change the letter, if that is agreeable with Your Honors.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Why not offer it with the same number and leave it the way it is?
MR. DENNEY: Just because, "A" has always been for "identification", Your Honor. That's all, and every time we have had something to identify and that is received in evidence, we drop the "A", and change it to a "B". Or, we can just drop the letter and offer it as 499 slash 5, if that is agreeable.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: I think that would be better.
MR. DENNEY: We will just drop the letter and call it 499 stroke, or diagonal 5, whichever is easier.
The certificate:
"I, Dmitrius Dissopoulos, do hereby certify that the attached documents, Greek Document No. 1 (Vatikiotty Report with reference to my experiences in Haidari Concentration Camp); Greek Document No. 2 (Interrogation of Karamanos Athanasios); Greek Document No. 3 (Decision No. 3 of the Special Court Martial for War Crimes in case against Friedrich Wilhelm Mueller and Bruno Oswald Brauer) and Greek Document No. 6 (Interrogation of Ionnis Leuca Zizis) arc original documents from the files of the Greek National War Crimes Office, Athens, Greece."
It is certified to by Dimitrius Kissopoulos, Director, Greek - 2508 a National War Crimes Office, and then the seal and the date.
The first document to which reference is made there is 499 A/1 which is offered as Exhibit 499/1. This is the affidavit of Constantine Vatikiotty.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I object to the submission of this document. First of all it is not an affidavit at all. It is just a written document, a statement. Also the signature has not been certified to. I do not know whether in the offer of it at this time, I do not know whether the document will be accepted in that case. I would like the author of this document to come to Nurnberg and cross examine him.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: It is not, of course, an affidavit, and subject to the prior decision of the Tribunal, it will be accepted at this time for what it may be worth, under the prior ruling.
The members of the Tribunal are interested to know whether it may be possible to produce this witness.
MR. DENNEY: I shall inquire, Your Honor. I am not advised at this time whether it is possible or not.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You will, in due time, inform the Tribunal?
MR. DENNEY: I shall, Your Honor. It is my understanding that at this time the witness is at present serving in a foreign country, as the Ambassador in Rome, and whether or not he will be available I am not presently informed. However, I shall inquire and advise you.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well.
MR. DENNEY: The first page, Athens, September 14, 1945;
"Dear Sir:
"I have the honor to submit a full report of my experiences during the period I was detained by the Germans as a hostage in the Haidari Concentration Camp (near Athens).
"CONSTANTINE VATIKIOTTY" Then the report follows:
"On the 26th of October 1943, members of SS police appeared at my apartment, No.10 Plutarch Street, and peremptorily ordered me and my wife to show them our indentification papers. At the same time they began to search the apartment. They sent away my servant and took over the keys, and upon my asking them the reason for these actions, their chief pointed two pistols at me and covered me with blows, stating that there were accounts to be settled between us.
"Then they ordered e to get ready and follow them. They also arrested my wife, upon whose Polich homelad they heaped the vilest abuse.
"Ye were taken to the Merlin Street Headquarters of the SS., whence after answering a few routine questions, we were removed to prison. I remained in the Averoff prison for forty days, after which without further examination, I was taken, together with other prisoners, to the Haidari concentration camp. Ten days later, my wife was also brought to Haidari and shut up in solitary confinement in a cell in Building No. 15 of the camp. Two months liter she was removed to building No.6, where in time, the number of women imprisoned grew to 300.
"Immediately upon our arrival at this notorious camp the Governor commanded that we be searched. Amid showers of blows and abuse, we were divested of our belongings: blankers, watches, rings, and everything that we possessed. Some of the prisoners had their s hoes and even their garters taken from them. In this half naked condition we were thrown in the celler of one of the buildings, where for several days, during the bitter cold of mid-winter, we lay in the bare pavement. It was only a fortnight later that we were allowed to communicate with our families and permitted to replace the mist necessary among the articles of which we had been robbed.
" My first contact with the terrible prison was a tragic one; for, on that day, I witnesses the first execution which took place within the camp walls.
"As we were leaving the Averoff prison the car in which we were riding stopped at the entrance of the outer gate of the prison yard, and the guard threw into our midst the chained, bruised body of a man in rags. The nan was a Jew from Janina, and a Lieutenant Captain during the afternoon roll-call, the Governor called the interpreter and handed him a paper; he then ordered the unhappy prisoner, who stood next to me, to advance towards him. After lashing at the prisoner's face with a whip, he turned to the interpreter and told him to read aloud the written order.
"The interpreter read as follows:
"The Governor of Haidari, Major Radomski, will personally execute before you the prisoner named Levy, for attempting to escape on the day of his arrest. Beware! 'The game fate awaits you in such a case!!!
"Ashudder of horror went through us all. The terrible Governor then proceeded to carry out his threat. He drew his revolver and fired at the unhappy man, who crumpled to earth in a bloody heap. His German assassin then calmly ordered us to removed him. But, before we had had time to lift the man, the Governor fell upon us and began to lash at us with his whip. Then, tearing his victim our of our hands, he fired at him once more and ordered us to remove the man's shoes. They were now and, consequently, a good prize. Under the supervision of the Sub-warden, we carried the man to a garbage pit, and there as we had neither spade nor pick, we buried him with our hands. The poor fellow was still alive when we covered him with the earth of Haidari.
"On tho following day, I became acquainted with the nightmare of life at the camp. A nightmare which lasted nine long months.
"We aronse at five, and from 6 o'clock to sunset we were employed at forced labor. We carried stones made barbed wire netting, filled and emptied ditches pulled down walls etc,, under the eye of furious and raving guards, who urged us on with lashings and kicks and harsh shouts of "Los, los".
"The fobs at which we were employed had no practical purpose. They were merely forms of punishment for the prisoners. On one day, while I was with a group of men carrying stones, the Governor approached for inspection and, claiming that my pail was not full enough, he whipped me in the face.
"Serving as Governor of the prison was the above mentioned Radomski, about whom it was rumoured that ho had been a porter in Hamburg. He was a sadist, a drunkard a veritable trute. He stalked about the camp ground using his whip, which he usually aimed at the face and eyes of his victims, and often his revolver. A few months later he was success by Lieutenant Karl Fisher a cold blooded, vidicti-infernal hypocrite.
"Our sub-wardens were sub-lieutenant Franz Loeflerl, and adjutant Techt, who distinguished himself by his inhuman conduct. Our other tormentors were all simple soldiers, most of them Hungarian. I recall the name of some of them; Richard Weiss, E. Hirschmann, Niklaus Schmitzer, Jakob Suneritch (The camp's executioner) Schmitzer, A. Melzer, Jakob Murgesan and the worst of all, Emmerich Kowacz.
"Amid snow and mud, withour overcoats, (the Governor forbade it) under a driving rain in Winter, or beneath a blazing sun in Summer, always bareheaded, and barefooted most of the time, the prisoners toiled and counted the hours until the moment came for them to withdraw to their cells. But even then how could one rest? There were no beds and not enough bed coverings, for the Governor only allowed us on or two ragged blankets. Sleeping conditions were awful. Owing to lack of space we were packed like sardines, and we were covered with lice. All during that Winter, water was distributed at rare intervals, and we had to depend on the arrival of the water wagon from Athens for a little water.
But there was no gasoline, and the waterwagon rarely made the trip. One can well imagine the condition of the latrines. The sewers were rarely emptied, and the prisoners were often forced to relieve their physical needs in the halls and staircases.
"Those among the prisoners who were ill had no possibility of receiving treatment, for the only doctor in the camp a prisoners, as well as the rest of us had mo medicines whatever to dispense. Besides, there were always very few patients in the infirmary, for sick leave permits were issued by the Governor, and he, as a rule, refused to grant such permits if the patient had a temperature of less the 104. A sick prisoner was not even allowed to remain in his cell without special leave. Each prisoner was required to be present at morning roll-call in any case, and whoso who were too sick to walk were carried on the shoulders of the rest.
"On our way to and from work, we were forced to sing (Arveit und Freude') even though that day might have witnessed execution of some of our comrades on penalty of being deprived of mess.
"I was once held for three days in solitary confinement, in a cell whore I had to stand all days. My food consisted of 25 grams of bread, and once a day, a few beans boiled in water, which - to add to hunger the torment of thirst - was saturated with salt. It was only several hours later that I was allowed to drink a litter water.
"The most insignificant infringement of prison rules brought on the most serious consequence for all the prisoners. Smoking was forbidden ans so was the reading of books and newspapers, (German reading matter not excepted) We were also forbidden to bring in food from outside. Whenever any infringement of the above laws was discovered, the prisoners were exposed to the fury of the Governor. They were forced to do the "Serpent crawl" on the ground, while the guards beat them, and the camp's specially trained police dogs attacked them with tooth and nail. Or they were made to run about the camp, with huge stones on their shoulders, until they fainted.
"Sometimes a punishment was inflicted fro no special reson or justification other than the desire to terrorize and torment the prisoners. Thus, one day, the Governor order the guars to throw all the prisoners belongings out of the windows. Blankets, overcoats, suitcases, baskets, underwear, mess -kits, wore tossed pell-mell in the courtyard. A special roll call was then ordered, following which the Governor confiscated whatever articles were new or in a good condition. While we were impatiently awaiting to be told to remove the rest of our belongings, we suddenly saw the guards piling up our things into heaps and srring fire to them. These bonfires made up the belongings of thousands of prisoners - many of whom came from provicial areas and would be unable to replace them -kept on burning for several hours while the Governor, like a modern Nero enjoyed and sight and laughed and joked with his guards.
"Every morning at roll call, we were disposed into groups of a hundred and. the Governor received a report of the number of prisoner then serving in the camp. Following this a certain number of prisoners' namers was called out. The number of names of prisoners to be released was usually every small; rarely exceeding four or five at a time. Owing to the lack of system and coordination between the different services of the SS., it often happened that men, who had been ordered released by Headquarters but whose bills of release had not been received at the camp, were detained in prison fro longer period of time while on the other hand, it happened that names were called for release of prisoners who had been sent to Germany or executed.
"Those who were called for questioning were taken to the SS, headquarters on merlin Street. They were usually returned to the prison camp on the evening of the same day, unless they were kept at Merlin Street. Sometimes they disappeared altogether. The bodies of some of them were found later, at various points about the capital.
"In the Merlin Street building there were chambers with special installation where those undergoing questioning were often subjected to the most refined methods of torture. This lasted for hours, and often for daus. At Haidari I saw prisoners with broken limbs, with bodies all black and blue from the blows they had received (The Germans used four kind of whips), or bearing the marks of terrible burns made by applying burning torches to them I saw others whom the questioners had hung up by special pulleys, with their hands tied behind their backs. As they swung in midair, the guards beat them with wire whips or iron rods. Those who had suffered this kind of torture had their arms wrenched from their sockets and were unable for many weeks to make use of their upper limbs. I saw prisoners who were brought back from Merlin Street in a half dying condition and who were allowed to expert without being permitted to receive medial aid. My wife saw women prisoners who had been made to sit on a lighted electric range, or who had been beaten to such an extent that they were not able to move for days.