Q. Was there then a Military Commander of Serbia previous to your time?
A. On this staff --- the one of my staff which I took over in Belgrade emerged under the leadership of my new Chief, Col. Ritter von Geitner.
Q. Who was your predecessor in the position of Military Commander Serbia?
A. That was General of the Artillery Bader, who then took over the XXI Mountain Corps in Tirana.
Q. Who was Chief of Staff with Bader when you took over from Bader?
A. That was Col. Ritter von Geitner.
Q. Did you have a successor as Military Commander of Serbia or as Military Commander Southeast?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because the Military Commander Southeast was disbanded when Military Commander of Serbia was founded. That must have been on the 5 of October 1944.
Q. Please state briefly what your staff consisted of in your capacity as Military Commander Serbia; in your capacity as Military Commander of Serbia what kind of a staff did you have under you in order to deal with this job in Serbia?
A. I had the same staff as when I was Military Commander Southeast. It was composed of two large departments, first of all from a really directive staff, a technical staff, Col. Ritter von Geitner, and a purely administrative staff, which first of all when I arrived there was only occupied by people as deputies, because the people in their designation of the definite chiefs of the administration had met with great difficulties and this had to be overcome and set geographically.
Q. The territory in which you were responsible as Military Commander Southeast, was that identical with the then territory of the Army Group-F?
A. Yes.
Q. What were your tasks as Military Commander Southeast in Croatia?
A. In Croatia I didn't have any actual tasks as Military Commander, because the Croatian Government under Poglavnik carried out its administration.
Q. Under whose supreme command were the German Troops in Croatia, while you were there as Military Commander Southeast?
A. The German troops we subordinate to the Commander in Chief of the 2nd Panzer Army.
Q. Besides yourself in this position as Military Commander in Serbia were there any additional Military Commanders in the Southeast area?
A. Yes, there was a Military Commander in Greece, that was German Plenipotentiary General in Albania and Montenegro, whose offices were divided later on. The business of Montenegro was subordinate to local headquarters. Then the German Plenipotentiary General in Croatia. I was under my command.
Q. Could you give these Military commanders in the War required by you by name and also their successors, if there had been many, during your tenure of office?
A. I can in detail only remember the highest commanders, that was for the Southern area of the Balkans, the Commander in Chief of the Army Group E and the Commander in Chief of the 2nd Panzer Army.
Q. Witness, I believe you did not understand my question. I asked you whether you could tell us by name, give us the names of the Military commanders or their successors during your tenure of office as Military Commander Southeast?
A. The Military Commander in Greece was, first of all, General of the Air Force Speidel. As far as I know on the 1st of July 1944, he was replaced by General Scheuerlen, again of the Air Force. The Plenipotentiary General in Albania was in the beginning a General Bessel and he was being replaced by the General of the Artillery Geip who simultaneously with General Speidel was replaced by a Major General Gullmann. The local headquarters in Montenegro was under the command, from the Spring of 1944, of Brigadier General Keiper. The Plenipotentiary General in Croatia also was the Lieutenant General of Infantry von GlaiseHorstenau.
Q. Who was the superior of these military commanders.
A. The superior of these military commanders was the military Commander Southeast. That is I.
Q. How often did you visit these Military Commanders?
A. During all the time of my activities as Military Commander Southeast I never left Serbia. The Military Commanders occasionally went to see me and to report to me in Belgrade; that was either Greece or Tirana, and happened only a few times.
Q. Were the military commanders disciplinarily subordinated to you?
A. On paper, according to the directives, the military commanders and similar personalities were subordinate to me. In practice, however, this subordination could not be carried out in this form. It soon appeared, that the Military Commander Greece was dependent on Army Group E which had always fought for complete subordination. The Commander in Albania soon became dependent on the 21st Mountain Corps which was likewise stationed in Tirana. This is explained by the fact that the Plenipotentiary General did not have any troops of his own.
The Plenipotentiary General in Croatia had a special and rather peculiar position. He had no jurisdiction as regards territory and he was looked upon as political and military adviser of the Poglavnic.
Q. Witness, may I ask you to answer my questions briefly? We will come to all the other points; what did the independence of the Military Commander amount to in practice?
A. The Military Commanders Greece and Albania were more or less independent and, as far as they were not bound by the directives of the 21st Mountain Corps or Army Group E, they were also independent in the execution of their measures.
Q. Were these military commanders ordered by you at any time to collaborate closely with the individual troop commanders in their respective territories?
A. No, there never was such a directive.
Q. Which troops were subordinate disciplinarily to the Military Commander?
A. That is subordinate to Military Commander Serbia?
Q. No, this concerns every individual Military Commander as far as you got to know of that officially and had to know this.
A. I cannot say anything of the troops subordinate to the Military Commander in Greece and Albania. I cannot say anything exact and accurate about this. As far as I remember, there were very few troops. As far as Greece is concerned, I remember one police regiment which was, however, directly subordinate to the Higher Police and SS Leader, General von Glaise-Horstenau had no troops at his disposal at all.
Q. As far as you know, witness, in your position as Military Commander Southeast, was it possible that German troops and that native troops were at the disposal of the Military Commanders?
A. No, I have knowledge only of those troops which were sub ordinate to me as Military Commander but only as Military Commander for Serbia.
Q. Do you know which two tactical main units were subordinate to Army Group F during your tenure of office?
A. That is the Army Group E in Saloniki and the Chief Command of the 2nd Panzer Army.
Q. Can you explain in general the military geographical jurisdiction of Army Group E?
A. Without a map, I cannot remember this in detail. The demarcation line between Army Group E corresponds about with the SerbianGreek frontier. That was the jurisdiction area of the 2nd Panzer Army without the Serbian area.
Q. Was there any tension, to speak of, between the military commanders and the troop commanders of which you got to know?
A. Yes, shortly after my arrival General Speidel visited me, the Military Commander Greece, and complained to me about the fact that somebody interfered in his capacity, that the Army Group E constantly interfered with his jurisdiction and command. I remember that he resented this so much he was thinking of asking for his transfer. The General commanding Albania, General Geip, arrived in the Spring of 1944 and told me the same story, that there was especially the will to power of the higher SS and police leader; General Geip was at his request replaced by a younger officer.
Q. In your capacity as Military Commander Serbia was the SD under your jurisdiction?
A. The SD consisted, as far as I know, of a group attached to the higher SS and Police Leader. Whether it was a group or a command-whatever the official designations are, that I cannot tell.
Q. Approximately how many men did the SD have during your period of service in Serbia?
A. I cannot tell that.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will recess until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours).
AFTERNOON SESSION The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, August 11, 1947.
HANS GUSTAV FELBER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY MR. RAPP:
Q Witness, who was highest ranking person of the SD in Serbia during your term of office there?
A The highest ranking person in the SS was Oberfuehrer Schaefer-Oberfuehrer Doctor Schaefer.
Q Whom was he subordinate to?
A Dr. Schaefer was subordinate to the higher SS and police leader, Meissner.
Q Who was the successor of the higher SS and Police leader Meissner?
A That was a Brigadefuehrer Behrens.
Q Was Meissner subordinate to you?
A Meissner was subordinate to me only regarding his own person, not with regard to his position within the police.
Q Whom was Meissner subordinate to with regard to his directives, etc.?
AAs to his directives, Dr. Meissner was subordinate to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler.
Q Did this same subordination later apply to Behrens?
A Yes.
Q Did Meissner or Behrens ever accept any orders or instructions from you?
A They only received orders from me in respect to a military affair, for instance, an order to put police troops at my disposal for combatting of bands, and secondly, orders with regard to reprisal measures against hostages.
Q Can you name other higher SS and Police leaders, who during their term of office were active in the southeastern area?
A I can name for Albania, the higher SS and police leader Fitzhum; for Greece the higher SS and police leader Streck) and about from October 1943, the Brigadefuehrer Schimana. In Croatia, I know by name, Kammerhofer.
Q These higher police and SS leaders in Albania and Greece, who were just named by you -
A No.
Q Just a moment, witness, my question was not yet finished. These leaders were they subordinate to the military commanders in Albania or Greece at that time?
A Yes, indeed.
Q In what respect?
A In military matters Meissner was subordinate to me.
Q Would you say that a little more detailed?
A Meissner as well as the other higher SS and Police leaders in respect to military tasks, were subordinate to the military commanders in their respective areas, solely for these tasks.
Q Did the higher SS and police leaders Fitzthum and Schimana, did they have SD subordinates?
A I cannot answer this question. I do not know anything about it.
Q You as military commander Southeast -- did you hold the same rank as the Commander in Chief of an Army?
A Yes, my position was expressly designated as that of a Commander in Chief.
Q Where, in your opinion, lay the difference between your service instructions, and the instructions of Fieldmarshal Weichs, so far as you were notified of this officially?
A The Supreme Commander Southeast was responsible for the entire military area of the southeastern area; my responsibility was limited first of all to the security and to the maintenance of order - law and order - and further to the administrative action of the southeast area.
Q In what respect, witness, did you have executive power?
A The conception, executive power, was not very clear to me. I expressly received from the Army Group F, at the end of September, the executive power for Serbia, that was in September, 1944. Therefore, I assume that the idea "executive power" did not apply at all to the southeast theatre. That would also comply with the fact that my sphere of work geographically seen fell together with that of the Army group. There was not the usual distinction made between combat and rear areas. Everything was combat area.
Q Witness, if I understood you correctly, your testimony says that neither you nor the then military commander of Army Group F, up to September, 1944, had any executive powers?
A That is correct, inasmuch as, so far as I know, this was not expressly ordered by the Supreme Commander Wehrmacht.
Q Did this situation change before September, 1944, at all?
A No.
Q The situation in Croatia, with respect to executive power, was it any different?
A In Croatia the Croatian government had the executive power in the person of Peglavnik.
Q. What troops were directly under your command in Serbia?
A. The foreign troops.
Q. That is, inasmuch as it is important for these proceedings here?
A. When I started my term of office, the following were subordinate to me: Police Regiment 5, which was under the command of the Higher SS and Police Leader; further, a security regiment for the security of railway lines; a field gendarmerie unit; and a company of Panzers; a third of a division stationed in Croatia; further a replacement unit which was stationed in the area west of Belgrade. Apart from these there were a few Field Gendarmerie units which were mainly active in the security of railway lines. Further, a Serbian Free Corps, a Russian protection corps and a Bulgarian occupation corps with four divisions. That was everything of importance.
Q. Did you know for a fact, witness, whether your former chief, Geitner, and the chief of Weichs, that is, defendant Foertsch -- did you know whether they knew each other personally?
A. I had the impression that those two not only knew each other well but also got along well.
Q. Were you, witness, satisfied with the defendant Geitner as your Chief of Staff?
A. I can only say that General von Geitner - from a military view I was very happy with him. Although he was older than I, he always behaved very correctly and he carried out his duties in a very special manner. I hold him in high esteem as a man of rich experience of life, of extraordinary personal bravery, which his high awards from the First World War show. On his staff, to his subordinates he was know as the true father of the staff, especially when he was promoted to general, and on the occasion of his 60th birthday was this fact pronounced clearly. He was a man free of all personal ambition. He was only devoted to the cause. He had nothing to do with Party ideology and ideas. The proof of this are the daily, very frank discussions between the two of us.
General von Geitner -- I as his superior can only give him the highest recommendations.
Q. Between you and Geitner were there ever any differences of opinion of basic value?
A. I do not know of a single occurrence of this nature.
Q. Witness, did you, in your command as Military Commander Southeast -- did you receive Daily Reports or reports of activity?
A. One has to distinguish, I believe, between two things. First, the Daily Combat Reports and secondly the Monthly Reports which were issued by the Military Commanders and in the equivalent staffs and given to us, and by our echelon to the Army Groups and to the OKW.
Q. These reports or these two different kinds of reports of which you're talking - did they come to your office in regular intervals?
A. The Daily Reports, as far as I recollect, arrived twice daily - noon and night. The Monthly Reports arrived towards the end of the month - that's once a month.
Q. You've already said that Army Group F passed on these reports. Were those original reports or copies?
A. I believe they were copies. That is, at least the Monthly Reports were copies, which at the same time were sent to the Army Group and to the OKW.
Q. Who in your staff, witness, was the responsible officer or the responsible authority whose task it was to pass on these reports to the Army Group?
A. The responsibility was that of the Chief of the General Staff. The reports were submitted to me and they were signed by me.
Q. Witness, why were those reports sent to Army Group F?
A. I assume it as a matter of course that the Army Group wanted to be kept posted on everything which happened in its area. Whether an order from above was given to this effect I do not know.
Q. Witness, did your reports - those which you sent directly - did they go to the OKH or to the OKW?
A. They were sent to the very same department of the staff of the Quartermaster General, who, as far as I can suppose, passed them on to the Wehrmacht Leadership Staff, at least as to their contents.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether it was the task of the defendant Geitner to study the incoming and outgoing reports of their districts?
A. Naturally. He was the expert and collector of these reports which then, after he had seen them and shown them to me, were given to me for signature.
Q. Do you know whether the 2nd Panzer Army received directly those reports from your headquarters?
A. I think it is correct that we were requested by the Second Panzer Army to let them have our reports too for their information, that is, as an act of friendship, so to speak.
Q. Was that done, witness?
A. At least in the summer of 1944 that was done. I assume it happened earlier too. That was a more or less personal agreement between two chiefs of staff.
Q. When, witness, did you, for the first time, in your capacity as Military Commander Southeast -- when did you hear for the first time of so-called collective reprisal measures?
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Just a moment, please. I think probably the witness ought to be advised at this time that he is not obliged to answer questions that might incriminate him, that anything that he here says may be used against him in any subsequent prosecution or trial. I don't know whether the witness understands that in America that's the principle to be followed, and we deem it our duty to advise him of this at this time.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, do I understand that this statement, as just made, is the advisement to the witness or does Your Honor wish that I should tell him that again?
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: I think it's sufficient, but we have no objection, I'm sure, to your advising him yourself if you see fit to do so.
BY MR. RAPP:
Q. Witness, did you understand the words of the Judge completely?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware of the importance of these words of the Honorable Judge?
A. Yes.
Q. Therefore, could I ask you to answer my previous question, when for the first time you heard of collective reprisal measures in your capacity as Military Commander Southeast?
A. The first knowledge which I received of this collective order -- the first knowledge when I reported to the Fuehrer's headquarters.
Q. When was that, witness?
A. That was on approximately the 20th of August 1943.
Q. Witness, what were you told at that time?
A. I received an order through the then Field Marshal von Keitel who introduced me to my new office and my new responsibilities, and he pointed it out explicitly that I had to take ruthless measures to an extent. And he showed me an order of Hitler which said the same thing, and which went as far as to say that Hitler emphasized he would cover every superior who exceeded his responsibilities.
In this exaggerated sense the introduction of this order was carried out by Keitel. Subsequently I went to Jodl, whom I knew from earlier days, and in my new commission I can only say I was shocked by it. He calmed me down and emphasized that Keitel's conception was exaggerated. With this attitude in mind I arrived in Belgrade.
Q. Witness, do you know for a fact whether your predecessor, in his capacity as Military Commander of Serbia, that is General Bader, whether he ordered and carried out collective retaliation measures?
A. It was made know to me that during the years of 1942 and 1943 considerable retaliation measures were necessary.
Q. Who was Bader subordinate to?
A. As far as I know, he was subordinate to Army Group E, that is, General Loehr.
Q. Did you discuss the question of retaliation measures as far as it was connected with Bader, his chief, and your later chief Geitner?
A. I must assume that we did discuss these matters. I cannot remember details at this time.
Q. What impression did Geitner make on you with respect to the retaliation measures?
A. Geitner and I from the very beginning in this as in all other matters understood each other completely. I made my attitude clear to him and I explained to him that under no circumstances was I willing to carry out these collective retaliation measures, which in my opinion were senseless, without special pressure on me. In this connection I might mention that this conception of mine I also made clear to my supreme commander Field Marshal von Weichs and that I found his consent.
Q. What, in your opinion, was the purpose - I am not talking about the cause - of these collective retaliation measures?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. The witness, Your Honor, is to be asked the facts only, not his opinion and judgment. For this reason I object to the question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection is good; it is sus tained.
Q. Witness, what was know to you as fact and the purpose of these retaliation measures?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. Your Honor, that is the same question as before.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Sustained.
A. The collective retaliation had--
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, since the question was not admitted, the witness may not answer.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: That is correct. Proceed with another question, Mr. Rapp.
Q. Witness, did the retaliation measures prove effective? I mean, was their purpose fulfilled?
DR. LATERNSER: I object again. The question refers again not to a fact but the question is asked to judge something.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, if you will pardon me please, we submit that the witness was the expert in the Southeast Theater. He was responsible for these measures and I am asking him as a matter of fact whether or not his success or failure in relation to the retaliation measures was obtained.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think, Mr. Rapp, if you have him testify as to what happened, testify as to the facts, the balance of it is a conclusion.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor.
Q. When we talk about so-called retaliation or reprisal measures, does this concern matters of security or of tactical nature?
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, this question too is not admissible; this question again asks the witness to judge something; the prosecutor may ask the facts but he may not ask the witness to judge certain facts. I, therefore, object.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, if you permit, we believe in this particular instance, as far as this question is concerned, that the witness must have known himself whether these collective measures are of a tactical measure or of a security measure.
He was in charge of them and he is merely being asked which one of the two it was.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will permit him to answer that question.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor.
A. The collective measures were of a tactical nature as well as of a police nature. In the Balkan area, as matters stood at that time, in my opinion the police nature - aspect - of the matter is the more important one.
Q. Did you talk to the then Commander in Chief of Army Group F with respect to these retaliation measures?
A. Yes, indeed, on repeated occasions, and quite frankly Field Marshal von Weichs was from the very beginning of exactly the same opinion, that is, that the collective order, at least as of the autumn 1943, was completely nonsensical. He and Ambassador Neubacher, who was an important person with regard to these matters, were in my opinion a great support to us.
Q. Do you know whether the defendant Foertsch was present with this kind of discussion you had with Weichs?
A. These discussions took place in the inner circle, that is, at the office of the Supreme Commander, and as far as I recollect Foertsch was present every time.
Q. Your chief, Geitner, was he present too at these discussions?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Pardon me, we are getting a little ahead. Could you slow down your questions?
A. I think I recollect that General von Geitner was only present a very few times, but I am certain that he was present at the beginning of my activities.
Q. Did you at any time discuss these things with your subordinate military commander, that is, did you discuss retaliation measures?
A. The very few times when the military commanders were presented to me personally we discussed all of these reprisal questions as a matter of course.
Q. What else was the attitude of the military commander subordinate to you to these retaliation matters?
A. I did not find a single person who was against my conception, with the exception of the Higher SS and Police Leader Meissner.
Q. Witness, who had the right to order retaliation or reprisal measures?
A. The military commander had the right to order retaliation measures.
Q. To whom was the Military Commander responsible as far as retaliation measures were concerned?
A. In the first place he was responsible to his superior office; that was as regards the Military Commander in Greece and Albania; my office and as far as I was concerned, in the first place, the OKW.
Q. Did the Military Commander in each single case request your permission for the orders of retaliation measures?
A. No. In this respect they were independent.
Q. When the troops under your command in Serbia were employed in the fight against the partisans, were the troops under your command or under that of Army Group F?
A. No, they fought under my tactical command.
Q. Who, in such cases, was your tactical superior, witness?
A. My tactical superior was the army group.
Q. Which army group?
A. Army Group F.
Q. Then the German Plenipotentiary General in Croatia, GlaiseHorstenau -- was he subordinate to you?
A. Glaise-Horstenau was subordinate to me.
Q. What was his official relation to Army Group F?
A. I have said previously that Glaise-Horstenau had a more political position, that is, he was a political advisor to Poglavnik, and in this capacity he was, in my opinion, also subordinate to Army Group F, which was expressed by the fact that he was often in Belgrade, and as the first thing always visited the army group.
Q. Did he have the right to order reprisal measures?
A. No.
Q. Who was responsible for the ordering and carrying out of retaliation measures in Croatia?
A. As far as I remember, Poglavnik with his Ustascha bands and the tactical commander in chief, the commander of the Second Panzer Army.
Q. Did Glaise-Horstenau ever report to you about the carrying-out of so-called retaliation measures in Croatia?
A. No, not in writing, only orally. He outlined the political situation in Croatia to me.
Q. Did your subordinate officers in connection with retaliation measures repeatedly or at all -- did they suggest to you ratios for retaliation?
A. It did occur repeatedly that local commanders requested me to order a reprisal measure and put suggested ratios to me.
Q. If I understand you correctly, witness, you are now talking of the local commander, who was subordinate to you only in Serbia, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The Military Commanders subordinate to you -- did they ever suggest ratios to you?
A. No, there were no suggestions from these quarters.
Q. Did you have the right to order reprisal measures when there were attacks against your own troops, which were subordinate to you?
A. No, these reprisal measures were also requested for attacks, murder and such things carried out on the Serbian people who were under the protection of or employed in any way by the German Wehrmacht, as for instance, mayors and such people.
Q. Did you, as Military Commander Southeast, ever order reprisal measures outside of the Serbian area?
A. No, it was out of the question.
Q. Did the tactical troops or their commander in Serbia know that retaliation measures as a reprisal were ordered?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. The witness cannot testify to what somebody else knows. He can only testify to his own knowledge.
JUDGE CARTER: I think you had better establish that by preliminary questions.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor.
Q. Witness, did you ever tell the tactical troop commanders that you ordered reprisal measures?
A. No.
Q. Who, I mean what authority or what person, informed you that the enemy had attacked German troops?
A. These reports generally came in from the local headquarters. If attacks were carried out on the troops themselves, as for instance on the professional police of the Higher SS or Police Leader, then the request for a retaliation measure came from the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. Witness, did you ever order retaliation measures as a reprisal for attacks, that is for attacks on material or members of the German troops which were tactically under the command of Army Group F?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. The question is put in such a general way that the witness cannot personally answer it. It is kept in such a general manner that one can hardly say that the witness is being asked about effect.
JUDGE CARTER: He may answer it if he can.
Q. Witness, if you can, answer the question.
A. May I ask you to formulate this question again?
Q. Did you directly order retaliation measures as a reprisal for attacks, that is attacks on material or members of the German tactical troops which were subordinate to Army Group F?
DR. LATERNSER: I object again.
MR. RAPP: I believe, Your Honor, Dr. Laternser did not hear you say that the witness could answer the question if he was in a position to answer it. I am merely repeating the question. The witness did not get the question.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, as far as I understood, it was now even more generally put. The witness could only be asked whether he knows certain troops he was subordinate to. Whether attacks were made against those troops and whether for that reason he ordered reprisal measures;