Therefore that is in the teletype report. And, thirdly, an attack on a passenger train near Severin: German losses 20 sergeants dead, one wounded, one Croatian gendarme wounded.
In contrast to this report, although the subject is the same, in the copy of the original report a quite different picture can be seen. It states in the original report, firstly, a railway attack near Pavlovac, near Bjelovav right here on the map (indicating); secondly, an attack on a railway near Vukuslavlevica -- this is the same place which I have just mentioned -- is also contained in this report; and, fourthly, there is also mentioned a railway attack near Severin, and then a second attack near Pavlovac.
Now comes the great difference. In these four railway attacks mentioned here the regiment reports, as its own losses, 30 dead, 20 missing 15 wounded; and the daily report of the corps dated 21 October, 1943, states that altogether 12 dead, 3 wounded and one missing.
Q And what were the reprisals which were taken according to the report at the regiment?
AAs reprisals for the 30 own losses, ten missing who were also regarded as dead, and 12 wounded for the great military material damage, altogether 25 bandits were executed. That is considerably less.
Q General, well that is just an accident that this can be found out so clearly because the correct documents are submitted for this, but can you state whether there is a possibility that also in a similar way in other matters this could have happened?
A Yes, that is quite possible. Sometimes the own high losses were not always given during these railway attacks.
Q Did you have the possibility to check the details about these matters?
A No, there was no possibility at all.
Q Can something similar be determined also with regard to the other daily reports?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Because only in this one case did the Prosecution submit the original order to the Court. It is significant that just this one case in which an original report was submitted the number of the hostages killed was very much smaller than the number of German victims.
DR. GAWLIK: That brings me to the end of this count of the indictment. I now come to Count I-m and in connection with this I submit from Prosecution Document Book 16, Page 13 of the English and Page 32 of the German, Document NOKW658, Exhibit No. 375, Page 88 in the English and Page 64 in the German; also in Document Book 16, Document NOKW-075, Exhibit No. 350.
I would like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that both cases are teletypes dated 10 October, 1943. They both concern one and the same document which has been submitted by the Prosecution under two exhibit numbers. I would like to draw the special attention of the Tribunal to this because otherwise there might be the impression that the number of the reprisal measures which were carried out were greater than they really were.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Is this teletype which has been submitted signed at all?
A No, it is not signed.
Q Is it an original document?
A No, it is not an original document.
Q Can you comment on the question about the Figure 2a which mentions the execution of band suspects in the neighborhood of Vinkovci? Can you tell us whether this execution took place at all?
A This teletype which is not signed cannot give any conclusive evidence about whether this execution took place. We are not dealing with an original document here.
Q Is this execution noted in the war diary?
A No, it is not mentioned in the war diary.
Q Then what do you conclude from this?
A I conclude from this that this was not a measure carried out by the subordinate troops but a measure which was carried out by the police or the Croatians. From the documents which were available to me I cannot find this entry.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn at this time until ninethirty tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The court will be in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 18 December 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII, in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List , et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 18 December 1947, 0930, Justice Burke, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom except the defendant von Weichs, who is in the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Burke will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued.
HERNST DEHNER, Defendant.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. General, yesterday we stopped when we were mentioning Count I-II of the indictment, document NOKW 658, Exhibit No. 375 in document book XVI, page 13 of the English and page 32 of the German. This document is identical with NOKW 079, Exhibit No. 350, document book No. 14, page 88 of the English and page 64 of the German. General, I will show you these two documents again.
JUDGE BURKE: Well, Dr. Gawlik one on page 13 of Volumn XVI and what was the other page of the English of the two documents you referred to?
DR. GAWLIK: Document 16, page 13 of the English and document book 14 page 88 of the English.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Thank you.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Let us assume the execution mentioned in the teletype actually took place; did you order this execution, General?
A. No, I did not order it.
Q. Can you remember that you heard anything about the execution?
A. No, I cannot remember any thing about that at all.
Q. Can it be seen from the teletype that the execution was carried out by troops of the 187th Reserve Division?
A. No, it only took place and was carried out in the area of the 187th Reserve Division.
Q. Who then could have carried out the execution?
A. The execution could have been carried out by Croats or by the Police.
Q. Is this not in contradiction to the fact that this execution is contained in the daily report of the Corps Headquarters under the 187th Reserve Division?
A. No, that is not in contradiction to this, the division reported everything which happened in their areas, even if the incidents arose from troops which were not subordinate to the divisions.
Q. General, if you had heard about the execution previously would yon have been able to prevent the execution?
A. No, I would not have been able to prevent it.
Q. And does the report exclude the possibility that the execution was carried out for the killing of German soldiers?
A. No.
Q. Does the report exclude the possibility that the number of people killed on the attack on the goods train was greater than the number of band members executed?
A. No, the morning report dated 9 October , which is referred to in the daily report was unfortunately not submitted, then perhaps we would have found some more explanation.
Q. Does the report exclude the possibility that the killing of the hostages was not in reprisal for only one attack on 9 October 1943?
A. The following attacks and acts of sabotage for which reprisals were not taken preceded this incident: On 7 October there was an attack on the passenger train Bjelevar, there were 10 dead, I wounded and I missing -- this act was not retaliated; On 8 October there was a surprise raid on a transport train near Brod and no reprisal measures were taken for this; During the night from the 2nd to 3rd of October there was sabotage with mines against the main line near Gracenica, I spell it G-r-a-c-a-n-i-c-a, and the post wagon and engine were derailed and no reprisals were taken, on October 14th there was a surprise raid by night near the locality of Tovarnik, I spell it T-o-v-a-r-n-i-k, a guard was disarmed and plundered, no retaliation; On 28 September there was an act of sabotage near Mitrovika, I spell it M-i-t-r-o-v-i-k-a; on 29 September there was an attack on the railroad station near Jankovci, I spell it J-a-n-k-o-v-c-i, the railroad station was set on fire, there were 2 dead and 2 wounded , no reprisal measures were taken for this. On the night of the 29th to 30th of September there was a sabotage act near Antijevci, I spell it, A-n-t-i-j-e-v-c-i. On the night of 29 to 30 September there was a surprise raid on a train near karavce, there were three dead and three wounded. The same night there was an attack and no reprisals were taken for an attack near Girova, I spell it, G-i-r-o-v-a- and near Katalen, I spell it K-a-t-a-l-e-n. There were attacks on goods trains and there were others as well. These cases for which there were no reprisals taken were obviously taken into account by the agency concerned. In a similar fashion, as I mentioned yesterday, with an example by the submission of an original report and a teletype which concerned the same subject.
Q. I now show you the document of the 167th Reserve Division, dated 20 September 1943, it is document NOKW 1758, Exhibit No. 549, document book 24, page 253 in the English and page 165 in the German, page 253 in the English document book 24. Is this communication signed by you?
A. No, it is not signed by me.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of this communication?
A. No, the letter did not go to the Corps at all, but went from the 187th Reserve Division to the 1st Battalion, 466 Reserve Grenadier Battalion and furthermore I was on leave at the time.
Q. And when did you see this document for the first time?
A. I saw this document for the first time here during the submission of the documents.
Q. Did you issue the order for the shooting of hostages?
A. No.
Q. Did you know about this order?
A. No.
Q. Before this order?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell us whether the shooting of hostages was carried out at all?
A. No, I cannot say,I was on leave during that time.
Q. Well now I will show you from document book 16, page 6 of the English and page 14 of the German, document NOKW 658, exhibit No. 375. This is a teletype dated 21 September 1943; is this teletype signed by you?
A. No, this teletype is not signed by me.
Q. Is this teletype signed at all?
A. It merely has a typewritten signature, Corps Headquarters 69th Reserve Corps.
Q. Can you state to whom the hand-written remarks here belong? I withdraw the question until later. Did you order the reprisal measures?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any knowledge at all of these reprisal measures?
A. Probably not.
Q. Can you give us a more detailed reason for this?
A. This report also belonged to the time when I was on leave, which lasted until 26th of September.
Q. I will now show you again the teletype of the army, dated 28 September 1943 from document NOKW 053, exhibit No. 332 on page 118 of the English, document book 13 , page 24 of the German. What can be seen from a comparison of this teletype with the teletype dated 21 September 1943, document NOKW 658, exhibit No. 375 in document book 16, page 14 of the German and page 6 of the English?
A. There is the possibility that the ten hostages mentioned in the teletype for 23 September 1943 from the 69th Reserve Corps is contained in the number of the 40 hostages, the shooting of which the 2nd Panzer army in its teletype of 28 September which was reported to the 2nd Panzer Army.
Q. And what can be seen from this?
A. From this it can be seen that through this manner of reporting a double counting of reprisal measures is reported.
Q. I now submit to you the document in hand-writing, dated 1 October, 1943, NOKW 658, exhibit 375 from document book 16, page 24 of the German and page 10 of the English and draw your attention to the report under 2-b; was the execution of 15 hostages ordered by you?
A. No, this execution was not ordered by me.
Q. Who ordered this execution?
A. As it states here in the report, it was carried out by the police.
Q. Were the police units subordinate to you?
A. No, the police units were not subordinate to me, they were subordinate to Gruppenfuehrer Kammerhefer.
Q. Was Kammerhofer subordinate to you?
A. No, Kammerhofer was not subordinate to me.
Q. I now show you document NOKW 658, exhibit 375, document book 16, page 23 of the English and page 55 of the German.
JUDGE BURKE: If you will be kind enough Doctor to be a little more deliberate -- if you will be a bit more deliberate in giving the figures , then we will be able to keep an account of what you are giving the witness -- not quite so fast. The page number again of that exhibit 375, the page number of exhibit 375?
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Your Honor, it is document book 16, page 23 of the English and page 55 of the German, document NOKW 658, exhibit 375, teletype dated 5 November 1943. Does the document submitted have a signature?
A. No, it is not signed.
Q. During the period when you were in charge of the Corps did you hear about the teletype?
A. The teletype does not bear my initials, therefore it was not submitted to me. I think therefore that I might say that I had no knowledge of this document.
Q. Can you make any comments on the question as to whether the reprisal measure mentioned under figure 2 was ever carried out?
A. The reprisal measure mentioned under figure 2 was not entered into the war diary, therefore, I doubt very much whether the reprisal measures was carried out.
Q. Did you order the reprisal measure reported?
A. No, I did not order this reprisal measure.
Q. Did you receive any knowledge of this reprisal measure?
A. No.
Q. General, can you make any comments on the question of whether, if this reprisal measure was carried out at all, it was only carried out because of the attacks mentioned in the report?
A. If this reprisal measure was really carried out then it was certainly not only in return for the attacks mentioned in the report. There were frequently warnings preceding this and the following surprise raids which were not retaliated preceded it as far as can be seen in the documents which have very many gaps.
On the 2nd November a car of the repair unit of the 2nd Cossack Division was attacked. The driver was killed and the assistant driver was wounded and no reprisal measure was taken.
In the night from the 2nd to the 3rd of November there was blasting of a railway bridge in Zabjak. In the night from the 1st to the 2nd of November there were destructions in the night on the railway line Bjelovar, I spell it, B j e l o v a r, Krizevci, I spell it, K r iz e v c i.
On the 3rd of November there was a surprise raid on a supply vehicle near Salasing, I spell it S a l a s i n g.
On the 30th of October a railway bridge near Spisc Bukovik, S p i s c -- new word B u k o v i k -- was blown up. There was also no reprisal measure for this.
On the 2nd of November a bridge near Razdejist -- I spell it R a z d e j i s t-- was destroyed. No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 30th of October there was a blasting near Popovaca -I spell it P o p o v a c a . No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 29th of October there was s surprise raid on a passenger train Bjelovar-Nrizevci in which the engine was damaged. No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 21st of October there was a surprise attack on the guard tower bridge in Le' enitz -- I spell it L-e-k-e-n-i-t-z.
On. the 29th of October there was a very serious act of sabotage on the express train Belgrade-Vienna near Ilica -- I spell it I-l-i-c-a. The engine and to carriages were derailed and the post carriage was destroyed and the train staff seriously wounded and one soldier slightly wounded. For 12 hours there was obstruction on the line and on this very important two-track stretch. No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 19th of October there was again a blasting near Popovaka in which 49 telephone poles were thrown down. No reprisal measure was taken.
All these numererous attacks for which no reprisal measures were taken are, if this reprisal measure took place at all, taken into account in the order.
Q. If this reprisal measure was every carried out, can it be assumed that the reprisal measure was carried out by units which were subordinate to you?
A. It can be assumed with certainty that the reprisal measure was carried out by Croatian agencies and that the division only passed on the report about the reprisal measure because in the Croatian area principal reprisal measure for sabotage acts were carried out by Croat authorities.
In the report it is also stated that the reprisal for a surprise raid on the police was carried out and I think that it is quite possible that the reprisal measure was carried out by the police; and the fact also speaks for this, that for attacks on the Police, reprisal measures were ordered and carried out by the police without the help of the troops.
Q. I show you from Document Book XVI page 23 of the English end pare 56 of the German, document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375. This is the teletype dated the 5th of November 1943. I draw your attention to figure "H".
Was the SS Police Sector Leader Osiek subordinate to the 69th Reserve Corps?
A. No, he was not subordinate to me.
Q. To whom was he subordinate?
A. He was subordinate to the representative of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Gruppenfuehrer Kammerhofer.
Q. Did you have any kind of responsibility for this measure?
A. No, this measure did not concern the corps at all.
Q. What was the purpose of this measure?
Q. From the teletype it can be seen that the purpose of the measure was to get back those German hostages which had been kidnapped from the German labor service camp Losipovak. There were 180 men from the labor service. The measure was successful and this can also be seen from the documents.
Q. I now show you from Document Book XVI, page 24 of the English, page 57 of the German document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375. This is a teletype dated the 6th of November 1943, page 57, paragraph 2-c of the German, page 20 of the English.
Can you comment on the question as to whether this incident contained under Figure 2-c ever took place at all?
A. This report in figure 2-c is not entered in the war diary. Therefore, it seems to me very doubtful whether it was carried out by troops of the corps.
Q. Witness, did you order this measure?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear anything about the measure before it was carried out?
A. No.
Q. Can you comment on the question of whether, if this measure was ever carried out at all, it was carried out by the 187th Reserve Division?
A. Well, while one cannot see this definitely from the report, there exists a very good possibility that Croat troops who were stationed in the area of the 187th Reserve Division but were not subordinate to it carried out this measure.
Q. Can you tell us anything about he question of whether this concerned a reprisal measure at all?
A From the very brief report this is not definitely clear, beyond doubt. There is a possibility that it concerned the execution of a sentence by court martial.
Q For which violation of the laws of war would the sentence of the court martial have been pronounced?
A I assume for plundering or for unauthorized possession of arms or explosives or something like that.
Q I now show you from Document Book SVI page 25 of the English, page 59 of the German, Document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375, this is a teletype dated 7 November 1943.
Was the reprisal measure reported under figure 2 ordered by you?
A No.
Q What were the military disadvantages resulting from the sabotage act which was the reason for this reprisal measure?
A There was a very serious effect; the engineer company, which was on the move, did not arrive in time. The engineer company was supposed to go to Brecko -- I spell it B-r-e-c-k-o. The bridge there was blown up.
Q Can you comment on the question of whether this reprisal measure was ordered by a division and carried out by a division which was subordinate to you?
A Even if the reprisal measure really had been carried out, then it can be assumed that it was not carried out by troops subordinate to me because sabotage acts were in principle carried out and ordered by the Croat authorities.
Q General, you meant reprisal measures for sabotage acts?
A Yes, reprisal measure.
Q Did you hear about the reprisal measure before it was carried out
A No, I had no previous knowledge of it.
Q I now show you from Document Book XVI page 26 of the English and page 61 of the German document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375. This is a daily report dated the 8th of November 1943 and I draw your attention to page 61, paragraph 3-a of the German.
Were you informed before the 21 hostages were shot?
A. No, I was not previously informed.
Q Could you have prevented the shooting of the 21 hostages?
A No.
Q Can you tell us anything more about it?
A I only received knowledge of it after it had been carried out.
Q Were the 21 hostages only shot because of the case mentioned in the daily report of the 7th of November 1943, the attack on the goods train between Lacacak and Martinoj?
A I assume that in any case surprise raids and sabotage acts which had taken place in the days preceding were included in this. Until the 8th of November there were 12 cases for which no reprisal measures were taken.
Q How can you bring your answer into line with the text of the daily report dated the 7th of November 1943 with the date of 8th of November?
A This is not a so-called original report which is exclusive but only a teletype which is set down in the briefest possible form in a telegram style and only deals with the last event, in a similar way as I stated yesterday with the example of an original report and a teletype.
Q Can you comment on the question of whether this is a reprisal measure for the killing of German soldiers?
A From the report dated the 7th of November, figure 2 to sub-section 3, this cannot be definitely seen. It has merely mention of a very considerable military damage and that the railway line has again been blocked It is possible that the losses of civilian personnel block leaders, train staff, et cetera, was not reported individually as was usual. In addition the preceding cases for which no reprisals had been taken were probably included.
For instance, there was a sabotage act on the 5th of November which resulted in 1 dead and 1 wounded. No reprisal measure was taken. On the 5th of November there was another sabotage act.
In the night from the 4th to 5th of November a railway bridge between Revisce -- I spell it R-e-v-i-s-c-e --- and Ivan Zapno -- I spell it I-v-a-n Z-a-p-n-o -this railway bridge was blown up and no reprisal measures were taken.
In the night from the 4th to the 5th of November there was sabotage on telephone lines. On the 4th of November there was another act of sabotage on the railway near Zagreb and again no reprisal measures were taken. In the night 5th to 6th of November there was a surprise raid on the railway station Jaksic -- I spell it J-a-k-s-i-c.
On the 6th of November there was an act of sabotage on the main railway line near Ivanierad -- I spell it I-v-a-n-i-c-r-a-d. Here one engine and two carriages were derailed. On tho 8th of November there was a surprise raid near Potnja -- I spell it P-o-t-n-j-a. This resulted in 7 dead, 11 wounded and 10 missing.
Just to mention a few examples, these surprise raids and sabotage acts were not retaliated.
Q Is there a possibility that the number of German casualties incurred during these sabotage acts and surprise raids was equal to the number of hostages killed?
A There is a definite possibility.
Q I now show you from Document Book XVI page 27 of the English, page 67 of the German, Document NOKW-658, Exhibit NO 375. This is a teletype dated the 12th of November 1943.
Is this teletype signed by you?
A No, it's not signed by me.
Q And I will now show you further in this connection from Document Book SIV, page 121 of the English and page 93 of the Germans, Document NOKW-075, Exhibit No. 358. Is the text of those two documents the same, and do they concern the same incident?
A Both are the same. The second case concerned is an excerpt, the text of which is the same as the Daily Report.
Q Please take Document Book XVI, on page 27 of the English and page 67 of the German, the one which you have just mentioned. Did you sign this document?
A No, I did not sign this document.
Q Is this document signed at all?
A It merely has a typewritten signature "Corps Headquarters LXIXth Reserve Corps" and a reference number.
Q Does this document contain any kind of initial by you?
A No, it contains no initial by me.
Q While you were in charge of the LXIXth Reserve Corps did you gain knowledge of the contents of these two documents?
A Well, I cannot say today with absolute certainty. At that time I was not with the Corps Staff, but I was taking part in a larger operation near Tuzla. T-u-z-l-a. This can be seen from the teletype submitted
Q Did you order this execution?
A No, I did not order the execution.
Q Can you remember whether you heard about the execution?
A No, I can't remember.
Q Do these two documents show beyond any doubt that the executions were carried out by troops of the 173rd Reserve Division?
A No, the two documents do not exclude the fact that the execution could also have been carried out by other troops who were in the area of the 173rd Reserve Division.
Q Can you tell us anything about the question of whether this reprisal measure was only carried out because of the surprise raids on Starokostovo and Fucukovo?
A No, the following surprise raids for which no reprisal measures were taken preceded this: On the 8th of November there was a surprise raid on an Engineer company near Potnja P-o-t-n-j-a. One officer was killed; six men were killed; seven were wounded; and ten were missing. No reprisal measure was taken. On the 6th of November -
MR. FULKERSEN: Excuse me a moment. Apparently the witness is referring to these various document books, and he's not giving the page number -- either in the English or in the German. I think it would be more helpful to the Prosecution and I think it would be more helpful to the Court if we knew to what he is referring.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Gawlik, you can instruct the witness to make reference by page and document book numbers. And I might say also at this point, Dr. Gawlik, that you might proceed a little more slowly with reference to the page numbers and document book numbers. The questions you may ask in the usual interrogatory tone of voice.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Would you please state the page numbers to which you are referring?
A They are always the page numbers of the previous reports to which I have referred. On the 6th of November a sabotage act -
Q Document Book XVI.
A Document Book XVI, page 24 in the English text. A transport train ran on to a mine, and two carriages were derailed.
On the 8th of November, also Document Book XVI, under Figure 3.
Q Which page, General?
A Page 63 in the German.
Q It's the same page in the English, your Honors.
AA railway sabotage act on the Durdevac-Koprivnica, D-u-r-d-e-v-a-c K-o-p-r-i-v-n-i-c-a, and several hundred meters of track were destroyed. No reprisal measure was taken. Then, there are others.
It can be assumed that these acts of sabotage and raids which preceded, and for which no reprisal measures were taken, were included and taken into account in this reprisal.
Q I will now show you, in connection with this, Document NOKW 648, Exhibit No. 374. I'm sorry -- it's NOKW-658, from Document Book XVI, page 3 of the English and page 6 of the German. This is the War Diary of the LXIXth Reserve Corps. Does this document show that this reprisal measure was not carried out by troops of the 173rd Reserve Division?
A One can certainly assume this for the sabotage act on the railway, but with regard to the other case near Vukovar the possibility is not excluded.
Q Can you give us any more details about this?
AAn SS transport train ran into a mine, and it can be assumed that the SS applied to the police or the Croat authorities who had this reprisal measure carried out.