Did you ever collaborate with the Germans?
PRESIDENT WENNERSTURM: May I interrupt just a minute. The Tribunal will be in recess at this time until reconvened, because of the fact that the recording is not functioning, and it will be necessary to repair it before we can proceed. With the consent of Judge Carter, who is presiding, the Tribunal will be in recess until reconvened.
... The Court recessed until 1540 hours ...
MR. DENNEY: If it please your Honors, I withdraw the last question. Dr. Laternser has spoken with me during the recess and has said that the term that he used, which was translated to the English as "collaborator" merely was one which was meant to indicate that he kept on working and that he did not imply any collaboration in the question.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Very well.
MR. DENNEY: I have no further questions, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Are there any further questions by the defense?
... Defense counsel indicated they had no further questions ...
MR. DENNEY: We request that the witness be excused, if your Honors please. I am sorry, I thought the Tribunal had no questions.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: The witness will be excused, subject however, to the possibility that he might be recalled. He will be excused for the time being.
... Witness excused ...
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honors please, I ask that the Marshal be directed to call the witness Costas Triandaphylidis.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: The Marshal will produce the witness.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honors please, this witness will testify to the regular military organization of one of the two major partisan organizations in Greece. I think it might be helpful if your Honors had this map of Greece before you, since there are many place names on it, and the witness will have occasion to refer to it.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: The witness will stand and be sworn. The interpreter will stand and interpret for him, please. -2069
COSTAS TRIANDAPHYLIDIS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT: Repeat after me: I swear to speak the truth and only the truth, in reply to whatever I am asked without fear and without prejudice.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. What is your name?
A. Constantinos Triandifilidis.
Q. How old are you?
A. I am 40.
Q. And where were you born?
A. In Constantinople.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Have you any children?
A. No, no children.
Q. What is your educational background?
A. I finished the French College and I stayed in the University of Athens for a period of three years.
Q. Have you travelled very much?
A. Not very much but officially anyway.
Q. What is your present profession?
A. I'm a newspaper man.
Q. For what newspaper?
A. I am the manager of Ethnikifloge, and I am also cooperating with other newspapers, namely, the Ellinikonema and Estia.
Q. Where is that newspaper published?
A. In Athens.
Q. What's its circulation today?
A. Approximately 20,000 for the Ethnikifloge.
Q. Do you live in Athens?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your occupation prior to the war between Greece and Italy?
A. I was a newspaperman at the time also. I was a newspaperman since 1933.
Q. Did you cover the Greek-Italian war in the course of your business as a newspaperman?
A. I was working on the Albanian Front from the very first day of the battle against the Italians until the 20th of April 1941.
Q. And what did you do on the 20th of April 1941?
A. I returned to Athens when it was quite apparent that the Greek armies would capitulate.
Q. Did you continue to work on your newspaper after the German occupation of Athens?
A. From the second day of the German occupation on, namely the 28th of April 1941, the Germans closed the newspaper where I used to work. Then that newspaper was Asyrmatos. And from that day on I didn't work with any other legal paper which was circulating regularly.
Q. Did you have any other job during the German occupation?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And how were you able to live? What money did you get?
A. As the staff of newspapermen was out of a job from that time on, the building where those newspapers were published, the organization of the Greek journalists sold the building and it was from that money that we received certain allowances.
Q. Witness, will you tell the Tribunal very briefly what you did during the period April 1941 until May 1943?
A. It was the summer of 1941 that I was informed that a former Greek officer, Colonel Zervas, intended to organize a certain Greek organization which would fight the German invaders by sabotaging.
Q. Did you talk to Colonel Zervas? Did you talk to Colonel Zervas who was forming a different organization to fight the Germans?
A. I tried to speak to him, but it was rather difficult because he had been arrested by both the Germans and the Italians on several occasions. That is, they had nothing definite that they could prove. He was again released. It was towards August 1941 that I finally succeeded in seeing him.
Q. And did you, talk over the plans of Zervas' organization with him at that time?
A. They did have the intention of--- I finally succeeded in talking to him and he told me that the staff needed a staff of correspondents who could possibly convey messages and information to secret papers and other publications. That is, to publish that information. And what I was mainly interested in was to know whether they would form an organization which would fight against the invaders. I wanted to know if the organizations which were to be set up were going to be military and not fighting organizations.
Q. Did you join Colonel Zervas' organization at that time?
A. Colonel Zervas assured me that he intended to set up such military guerilla units and that he would proceed to establish them, and I joined him and his organization.
Q. What did you do for the organization during the period April 1941 until May 1943?
A. I saw to the printing and circulation of leaflets - flypapers and later on I also helped with publishing a secret paper.
Q. Was there great personal risk involved to you in doing that for the organization?
A. There was an order which had been issued by the German authorities according to which the circulation and printing of such leaflets would result in death. The Italians had issued a similar order.
Q. What did you do, witness, during the period May 1943 until March 1944?
A. That is, of course, I agreed to do the printing of those newspapers. I had to go up to the mountains to go with the other units. As a result of this I met several military commanders, and finally Zervas himself.
Q. Were you up in the mountains the whole time during this period May 1943 until March 1944?
A. No, I wasn't. I only stayed there for a short while, and then I would return to Athens in order to continue the publication of those leaflets.
Q. From what sources did you get the information which you used in your leaflets?
A I gathered my information from the general information which we were receiving in Athens. As far as the information was concerned with reference to the fighting which was going on in the mountains, I received that either from detachments which would cone down towards Athens, or either on the spot examination from troops commanded in Athens, and those detachments which were receiving the information from messengers who were coming down from the mountains.
Q While you were in the mountains during this period May 1943 until March 1944, did you see any battles yourself between the Germans and the Zervas' units?
A Personally I only heard about it in October 1943. I was present also in the fighting during the first phase of the struggle which took place near Tsoumerka. And that was during the first phase of the struggle between the Germans and our guerrilla, forces, and the Zervas forces.
Q. Did you talk to Zervas?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you see the report which came in to him from his units in the field?
A Yes. It was natural because I had to see that in order to go down to Athens and print it.
Q Did you talk to members of Zervas' organization?
A Yes, I did. I spoke to many of them.
Q Did you circulate among the villages and talk to the population in the areas, in the areas in which the Zervas units were operating?
A Yes, I did repeatedly and in many villages during the period May 1943 until March 1944.
Q Were the Zervas forces subordinated to any higher headquarters?
A Yes, they were under or subordinated to the Chief Command of the Middle East.
Q Did you see the reports which Zervas sent to these Middle East headquarters?
A Yes, repeatedly. Those messages were being sent by radio, by wireless, and I also watched the transmission of such a message.
Q Where were you, Witness, during the period March 1944 until October 1944?
A I was together with the forces of Colonel Zervas in the mountains.
Q During that whole period?
A No, only with the exception of one week during which time I had to return to Athens, but I returned to the mountains immediately after that.
Q Where were you during the period October 1944 until February 1945?
A I was following the operation of Colonel Zervas' troops as the chief of the printing department of his forces.
Q And where were you from the period February 1945 until the present time?
A I was in Athens, where I was carrying on my profession.
Q Is it correct, Witness, to say then that during the period April 1941 until May 1943 you were largely in Athens publishing underground leaflets and pamphlets?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And that during the period May 1943 until March 1944 you were up in the mountains, and back in Athens at various periods?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And from March 1944 until February 1945 you were in the mountains with Colonel Zervas' units publishing propaganda on behalf of his organization?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And from February 1945 until the present time you have been publishing a newspaper in Athens?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q What was the name of Zervas's organization?
A The name of that organization - the political name was National Democratic Hero Organization, or EDES.
Q How long have you been associated with that EDES Organization?
A I was there since the establishment of the organization until the end of the conflict, from the day when I visited the Colonel until the end of the conflict.
Q That is to say, from the summer of 1941 until the Germans withdrew from Greece in October 1944?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Were you a friend of the head of the organization, Colonel Zervas, himself?
A Yes, undoubtedly. I'm one of his closest collaborators.
Q Now, Witness, I want to ask you some questions about this EDES organization, of which you were a member from the summer of 1941 until the German withdrawal in October 1944. When would you say this organization first began?
A In the summer of 1941 the first preparations were made for the establishment of the organization and on the 9th of September the official establishment took place.
Q Where was Colonel Zervas at that time, on the 9th of September 1941?
A In Athens.
Q Did the occupying forces know that he was forming a resistance movement?
A They knew that he was one of the strongest and most active Greek elements; however, they did not know exactly what they were going to do.
Q Was he ever arrested by the occupying police authorities?
A In the month of July 1942 he was arrested four or five times.
Q Was he released on each occasion?
A Yes, he was released on every occasion, but after he was arrested four or five tines he was compelled to go and report to the occupying authorities every day.
Q Did Colonel Zervas ever leave Athens?
A You mean during this period of title of the summer 1941 and July 1942?
Q Yes.
A No, during that period of time he didn't.
Q When did he leave Athens?
A He left Athens on the 23rd of July secretly while being chased by both the Germans and the Italians.
Q On the 23rd of July of what year?
A 1942.
Q And where did he go on the 23rd of July 1942 when he left Athens?
A He went to the region of Valto southeast of Epirus, at least at the northern borders of Epirus.
Q Where is the Epirus section of Greece?
A Epirus comprises the entire northwestern section of Greece.
Q Why did Colonel Zervas choose Epirus as the German territory to which he would go when he left Athens?
A The main occupying force at the time were the Italians and their line of communication to Italy ran along through the Epirus, then through Albania, then to Pavlon which was the port there and across to Bari.
Q What did Colonel Zervas intend to do in that territory?
A Col. Zervas wanted to organize a force which would be in a position during the critical period of the campaign, which he expected would come soon, to interrupt that line of communication.
Q Witness, have you ever seen all the records and reports and orders which were issued by the EDES organization?
A The records and whatever else might be of interest are in my hands. They were given me by the Colonel, Colonel Zervas, in March 1944 to enable me to write the story of the organization.
Q Are you writing this story of the organization now?
A Yes, the first part was already published in the paper which I am printing and it will also be printed in a book.
Q What period of time would you say constituted the first period of the EDES organization?
A You mean of the organization EDES as a military organization?
Q Yes.
A It comprised the period of time between the end of July 1942 and the 10th of November 1942.
Q You say it occupied the period beginning with July 1942 because that is the day when Zervas left Athens for the mountains?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q During that first period, July 1942 until November 1942, how many men were there in the EDES organization?
A You mean of the guerilla forces?
Q Yes.
AAs of the 23rd of October, 1942, which was where the first fight took place between the Greeks and the Italians, that unit included together with Col. Zervas 98 persons.
Q And what was the military strength of the organization during that first period July 1942 to November 1942?
A The military structure consisted of the following. First of all there was one commander who was Zervas himself. Then there were several smaller units which were led either by officers who had come and joined the group up in the mountains or then farmers who had shown their ability to lead men in battle.
Q Did the officers wear a uniform.
A Yes, they had brought along with them secretly the uniforms which they still had from the war against the Italians.
Q You mean the regular Greek army uniform that they used in the war against the Italians?
A Yes, that is correct, the normal Greek officer's uniforms.
Q What did the men who were not officers wear?
A Some of them were wearing civilian clothes. Others again were wearing policemen's uniforms or they were policemen who had joined us, and others again were wearing the normal Greek soldier uniform which they had kept from the end of the war against the Italians.
Q Was there any particular insignia worn by those men?
A Yes, the officers were wearing the regular Greek insignia. The policemen were wearing their uniforms and the civilians weren't wearing anything at all of course, just their civilian clothes.
Q You are now talking about the first period July 1942 until November 1942?
A Yes.
Q Did Zervas ever change his rank from a colonel to another rank?
A We used to call him the commander of an army of a military group, a general anyway, but in 1944 the Greek government, in cooperation with the Middle East forces, finally promoted him to Brigadier General.
Q Did the occupying forces do anything when Zervas left Athens in July 1942?
AAll the units were organized and all the police units were alarmed in order to catch him and roads were blocked off but they didn't succeed in catching him.
Q Did they offer a reward for information concerning his whereabouts?
A It was the end of November at which time -- after November 1942, at which time the bridge of Neopotamios had been blown up, namely on the 25th of November 1942, they offered 100 million drachmas in food or money for whoever would give information to lead to his arrest.
Q Did you see posters to that effect?
A Yes, thousands of those leaflets had been distributed all over Greece, Athens, and the streets of Athens.
Q Witness, when was the first battle fought by the Zervas organization?
A From the 23rd of October until the 10th of November, in the region of Skoulikarias, 1941.
Q And against whom was that battle fought?
AAgainst four Italian battalions.
Q How many men did the Zervas organization have during that battle?
A 98 men.
Q Witness, when would you say the next period in the history of the EDES organization comprised?
A That is approximately for the period of the 10th of November, at which time they loft to blow up the bridge of Neopotamios until December 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until ninethirty to-morrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 16 August 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 16 August 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, have you ascertained whether all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed on behalf of the prosecution.
CONSTANTINOS TRIANDAPHYLIDIS - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness -
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me just a moment. I wonder if the lady could move back a little bit. I like to see the face of the witness.
GREEK INTERPRETER ANAGNOSTOPOULOS: Excuse me, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all right. Maybe you can move over a little closer. That is better. Just move over a little bit. Personally, I like to see the witness. It's very agreeable to look at you but I also like to look at the witness.
Q Witness, yesterday afternoon you testified about your personal participation in the EDES movement in the summer of 1941 until the end of 1944. You testified that you were in effect the historian of the EDES movement. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q You also testified that in the beginning you published in Athens underground leaflets and pamphlets in favor of the EDES movement during the organization period.
A Yes, that is correct.
Q That you made trips back and forth between Athens and the mountains in order to gain information to put into the pamphlets and leaflets.
A Yes.
Q And that on those trips you talked with the leader of the movement, General Zervas, with his troops, and as a trained professional newspaper man, you also talked with the inhabitants on the villages in the Epiros area of Greece in which the EDES forces operated.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And am I correct that you also said that the reports which General Zervas issued to his men, the reports which he received from his subordinates and the bulletins or reports on EDES activities which he in turn sent on to British Middle East Headquarters in Cairo. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. At the close of yesterday's session we talked briefly about the history of the EDES organization and you testified that the first period of the movement covered the period from July 1942 when General Zervas first went into the mountains of the Epires until November 1942 when he and his men fought their first battles against the Italian occupations forces?
A Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me just a moment. I am making the inquiry for purposes of the record and wondering as to whether or not the Greek that is being spoken by the lady interpreter will be picked up by the sound recording system. She is not speaking very loud. Is it the desire or the purpose or is it necessary that the Greek be carried on the sound recording system?
GREEK INTERPRETER ANAGNOSTOPOLOS: If you wish I can speak louder. I have not because I thought it would disturb and I thought it was not necessary, but if you wish I can speak louder.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. We will find out.
MONITOR: Your Honor, the English questions and the English answers are on the sound track.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I think all we need on the sound track is the English question and the English answer and the Greek need not be put on the sound track.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
GREEK INTERPRETER ANAGNOSTOPOULOS: Do you want me to speak louder?
THE PRESIDENT: Not necessarily.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, who was this man, Zervas, the head of the EDES organization? What was his military background?
A During the war, between 1912 and 1913 Zervas went into the army and was wounded twice while fighting the Turks and later on he became a sergeant of the Evzones which is our elite troop in Greece, by graduating from the military school of Epision, and he left as a second lieutenant of the school. He entered the school as sergeant and he left as a second lieutenant.
During the first World War he joined a French company. With his company he joined the French Army and he received the Legion d'honneur and the Soldiers' Cross, the Military Cross. At the end of the war he became a Regiment Commander, a Major, and he fought as a Major in Asia Minor against the Turks whereupon later on he was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel, from Major to Lieutenant Colonel, and he was dismissed as a Colonel.
He was known for his democratic ideas in Greece and he was also known as being a friend of France and England.
Q Was he in the Greek Army at the time of the Italian war?
A No, he didn't serve in the Greek Army during the war, although he had desired to serve.
Q Now, witness, turning again to the first period in the movement which covered the period of time, July 1942 until November 1942, will you tell us again how many men Zervas had in the EDES organization?
A In the political organization in the Athens area alone, they had 15,000 men whereas on the 23rd of October -- and I am talking now about the Guerillas when they fought the Germans -- they were 98 men including Zervas.
Q Into what kind of units were these 98 men divided?
A Due to the small number of men in that group, it consisted of only one group which was separated into smaller units, due to the circumstances.
Q Were there officers among those 98 men?
A On the 23rd of October they had 7 officers with them.
Q. There were Zervas' headquarters in the mountains at this time?
A. Zervas' headquarters were in the village of Megalochari, which is also called Botsi.
Q. Is that near the Tannina, the Epiros section?
A. It is in the most southern area. If you want to, you may call it Canton Artd.
Q. Now, witness, what was the next period in the EDES organization?
A. That is the period of time in which they got in contact with the British officers, between the 10th of November 1942 and December 1942.
Q. How many men were in Zervas' organization during that period of time?
A. After the period of time of the 25th of November, at which they had blown up the Bridge of Gorgapotamos, they had receive more men from the villages and the whole number towards December numbered between 500 and 600 men.
Q. Into what kind of units were they divided?
A. At that time they started compiling the men and organizing them into commands, who commanded smaller groups.
Q. How many men were in a command?
A. Every command had from between 150 to 200 men.
Q. And how were these, between 500 and 600 men organized? Were there officers?
A. Most of the groups were led by officers but there were also smaller members who were also in charge of groups -- younger members, farmers who had distinguished themselves in leadership and who also became commanders of the groups.
Q. Did the officers wear uniforms?
A. All officers were wearing their old Greek uniforms.