General von Geitner -- I as his superior can only give him the highest recommendations.
Q. Between you and Geitner were there ever any differences of opinion of basic value?
A. I do not know of a single occurrence of this nature.
Q. Witness, did you, in your command as Military Commander Southeast -- did you receive Daily Reports or reports of activity?
A. One has to distinguish, I believe, between two things. First, the Daily Combat Reports and secondly the Monthly Reports which were issued by the Military Commanders and in the equivalent staffs and given to us, and by our echelon to the Army Groups and to the OKW.
Q. These reports or these two different kinds of reports of which you're talking - did they come to your office in regular intervals?
A. The Daily Reports, as far as I recollect, arrived twice daily - noon and night. The Monthly Reports arrived towards the end of the month - that's once a month.
Q. You've already said that Army Group F passed on these reports. Were those original reports or copies?
A. I believe they were copies. That is, at least the Monthly Reports were copies, which at the same time were sent to the Army Group and to the OKW.
Q. Who in your staff, witness, was the responsible officer or the responsible authority whose task it was to pass on these reports to the Army Group?
A. The responsibility was that of the Chief of the General Staff. The reports were submitted to me and they were signed by me.
Q. Witness, why were those reports sent to Army Group F?
A. I assume it as a matter of course that the Army Group wanted to be kept posted on everything which happened in its area. Whether an order from above was given to this effect I do not know.
Q. Witness, did your reports - those which you sent directly - did they go to the OKH or to the OKW?
A. They were sent to the very same department of the staff of the Quartermaster General, who, as far as I can suppose, passed them on to the Wehrmacht Leadership Staff, at least as to their contents.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether it was the task of the defendant Geitner to study the incoming and outgoing reports of their districts?
A. Naturally. He was the expert and collector of these reports which then, after he had seen them and shown them to me, were given to me for signature.
Q. Do you know whether the 2nd Panzer Army received directly those reports from your headquarters?
A. I think it is correct that we were requested by the Second Panzer Army to let them have our reports too for their information, that is, as an act of friendship, so to speak.
Q. Was that done, witness?
A. At least in the summer of 1944 that was done. I assume it happened earlier too. That was a more or less personal agreement between two chiefs of staff.
Q. When, witness, did you, for the first time, in your capacity as Military Commander Southeast -- when did you hear for the first time of so-called collective reprisal measures?
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Just a moment, please. I think probably the witness ought to be advised at this time that he is not obliged to answer questions that might incriminate him, that anything that he here says may be used against him in any subsequent prosecution or trial. I don't know whether the witness understands that in America that's the principle to be followed, and we deem it our duty to advise him of this at this time.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, do I understand that this statement, as just made, is the advisement to the witness or does Your Honor wish that I should tell him that again?
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: I think it's sufficient, but we have no objection, I'm sure, to your advising him yourself if you see fit to do so.
BY MR. RAPP:
Q. Witness, did you understand the words of the Judge completely?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware of the importance of these words of the Honorable Judge?
A. Yes.
Q. Therefore, could I ask you to answer my previous question, when for the first time you heard of collective reprisal measures in your capacity as Military Commander Southeast?
A. The first knowledge which I received of this collective order -- the first knowledge when I reported to the Fuehrer's headquarters.
Q. When was that, witness?
A. That was on approximately the 20th of August 1943.
Q. Witness, what were you told at that time?
A. I received an order through the then Field Marshal von Keitel who introduced me to my new office and my new responsibilities, and he pointed it out explicitly that I had to take ruthless measures to an extent. And he showed me an order of Hitler which said the same thing, and which went as far as to say that Hitler emphasized he would cover every superior who exceeded his responsibilities.
In this exaggerated sense the introduction of this order was carried out by Keitel. Subsequently I went to Jodl, whom I knew from earlier days, and in my new commission I can only say I was shocked by it. He calmed me down and emphasized that Keitel's conception was exaggerated. With this attitude in mind I arrived in Belgrade.
Q. Witness, do you know for a fact whether your predecessor, in his capacity as Military Commander of Serbia, that is General Bader, whether he ordered and carried out collective retaliation measures?
A. It was made know to me that during the years of 1942 and 1943 considerable retaliation measures were necessary.
Q. Who was Bader subordinate to?
A. As far as I know, he was subordinate to Army Group E, that is, General Loehr.
Q. Did you discuss the question of retaliation measures as far as it was connected with Bader, his chief, and your later chief Geitner?
A. I must assume that we did discuss these matters. I cannot remember details at this time.
Q. What impression did Geitner make on you with respect to the retaliation measures?
A. Geitner and I from the very beginning in this as in all other matters understood each other completely. I made my attitude clear to him and I explained to him that under no circumstances was I willing to carry out these collective retaliation measures, which in my opinion were senseless, without special pressure on me. In this connection I might mention that this conception of mine I also made clear to my supreme commander Field Marshal von Weichs and that I found his consent.
Q. What, in your opinion, was the purpose - I am not talking about the cause - of these collective retaliation measures?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. The witness, Your Honor, is to be asked the facts only, not his opinion and judgment. For this reason I object to the question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection is good; it is sus tained.
Q. Witness, what was know to you as fact and the purpose of these retaliation measures?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. Your Honor, that is the same question as before.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Sustained.
A. The collective retaliation had--
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, since the question was not admitted, the witness may not answer.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: That is correct. Proceed with another question, Mr. Rapp.
Q. Witness, did the retaliation measures prove effective? I mean, was their purpose fulfilled?
DR. LATERNSER: I object again. The question refers again not to a fact but the question is asked to judge something.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, if you will pardon me please, we submit that the witness was the expert in the Southeast Theater. He was responsible for these measures and I am asking him as a matter of fact whether or not his success or failure in relation to the retaliation measures was obtained.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think, Mr. Rapp, if you have him testify as to what happened, testify as to the facts, the balance of it is a conclusion.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor.
Q. When we talk about so-called retaliation or reprisal measures, does this concern matters of security or of tactical nature?
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, this question too is not admissible; this question again asks the witness to judge something; the prosecutor may ask the facts but he may not ask the witness to judge certain facts. I, therefore, object.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, if you permit, we believe in this particular instance, as far as this question is concerned, that the witness must have known himself whether these collective measures are of a tactical measure or of a security measure.
He was in charge of them and he is merely being asked which one of the two it was.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will permit him to answer that question.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor.
A. The collective measures were of a tactical nature as well as of a police nature. In the Balkan area, as matters stood at that time, in my opinion the police nature - aspect - of the matter is the more important one.
Q. Did you talk to the then Commander in Chief of Army Group F with respect to these retaliation measures?
A. Yes, indeed, on repeated occasions, and quite frankly Field Marshal von Weichs was from the very beginning of exactly the same opinion, that is, that the collective order, at least as of the autumn 1943, was completely nonsensical. He and Ambassador Neubacher, who was an important person with regard to these matters, were in my opinion a great support to us.
Q. Do you know whether the defendant Foertsch was present with this kind of discussion you had with Weichs?
A. These discussions took place in the inner circle, that is, at the office of the Supreme Commander, and as far as I recollect Foertsch was present every time.
Q. Your chief, Geitner, was he present too at these discussions?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Pardon me, we are getting a little ahead. Could you slow down your questions?
A. I think I recollect that General von Geitner was only present a very few times, but I am certain that he was present at the beginning of my activities.
Q. Did you at any time discuss these things with your subordinate military commander, that is, did you discuss retaliation measures?
A. The very few times when the military commanders were presented to me personally we discussed all of these reprisal questions as a matter of course.
Q. What else was the attitude of the military commander subordinate to you to these retaliation matters?
A. I did not find a single person who was against my conception, with the exception of the Higher SS and Police Leader Meissner.
Q. Witness, who had the right to order retaliation or reprisal measures?
A. The military commander had the right to order retaliation measures.
Q. To whom was the Military Commander responsible as far as retaliation measures were concerned?
A. In the first place he was responsible to his superior office; that was as regards the Military Commander in Greece and Albania; my office and as far as I was concerned, in the first place, the OKW.
Q. Did the Military Commander in each single case request your permission for the orders of retaliation measures?
A. No. In this respect they were independent.
Q. When the troops under your command in Serbia were employed in the fight against the partisans, were the troops under your command or under that of Army Group F?
A. No, they fought under my tactical command.
Q. Who, in such cases, was your tactical superior, witness?
A. My tactical superior was the army group.
Q. Which army group?
A. Army Group F.
Q. Then the German Plenipotentiary General in Croatia, GlaiseHorstenau -- was he subordinate to you?
A. Glaise-Horstenau was subordinate to me.
Q. What was his official relation to Army Group F?
A. I have said previously that Glaise-Horstenau had a more political position, that is, he was a political advisor to Poglavnik, and in this capacity he was, in my opinion, also subordinate to Army Group F, which was expressed by the fact that he was often in Belgrade, and as the first thing always visited the army group.
Q. Did he have the right to order reprisal measures?
A. No.
Q. Who was responsible for the ordering and carrying out of retaliation measures in Croatia?
A. As far as I remember, Poglavnik with his Ustascha bands and the tactical commander in chief, the commander of the Second Panzer Army.
Q. Did Glaise-Horstenau ever report to you about the carrying-out of so-called retaliation measures in Croatia?
A. No, not in writing, only orally. He outlined the political situation in Croatia to me.
Q. Did your subordinate officers in connection with retaliation measures repeatedly or at all -- did they suggest to you ratios for retaliation?
A. It did occur repeatedly that local commanders requested me to order a reprisal measure and put suggested ratios to me.
Q. If I understand you correctly, witness, you are now talking of the local commander, who was subordinate to you only in Serbia, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The Military Commanders subordinate to you -- did they ever suggest ratios to you?
A. No, there were no suggestions from these quarters.
Q. Did you have the right to order reprisal measures when there were attacks against your own troops, which were subordinate to you?
A. No, these reprisal measures were also requested for attacks, murder and such things carried out on the Serbian people who were under the protection of or employed in any way by the German Wehrmacht, as for instance, mayors and such people.
Q. Did you, as Military Commander Southeast, ever order reprisal measures outside of the Serbian area?
A. No, it was out of the question.
Q. Did the tactical troops or their commander in Serbia know that retaliation measures as a reprisal were ordered?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. The witness cannot testify to what somebody else knows. He can only testify to his own knowledge.
JUDGE CARTER: I think you had better establish that by preliminary questions.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor.
Q. Witness, did you ever tell the tactical troop commanders that you ordered reprisal measures?
A. No.
Q. Who, I mean what authority or what person, informed you that the enemy had attacked German troops?
A. These reports generally came in from the local headquarters. If attacks were carried out on the troops themselves, as for instance on the professional police of the Higher SS or Police Leader, then the request for a retaliation measure came from the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. Witness, did you ever order retaliation measures as a reprisal for attacks, that is for attacks on material or members of the German troops which were tactically under the command of Army Group F?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. The question is put in such a general way that the witness cannot personally answer it. It is kept in such a general manner that one can hardly say that the witness is being asked about effect.
JUDGE CARTER: He may answer it if he can.
Q. Witness, if you can, answer the question.
A. May I ask you to formulate this question again?
Q. Did you directly order retaliation measures as a reprisal for attacks, that is attacks on material or members of the German tactical troops which were subordinate to Army Group F?
DR. LATERNSER: I object again.
MR. RAPP: I believe, Your Honor, Dr. Laternser did not hear you say that the witness could answer the question if he was in a position to answer it. I am merely repeating the question. The witness did not get the question.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, as far as I understood, it was now even more generally put. The witness could only be asked whether he knows certain troops he was subordinate to. Whether attacks were made against those troops and whether for that reason he ordered reprisal measures;
it is impossible - it doesn't make sense - that the witness should have to answer this question.
JUDGE CARTER: The witness may answer it. Overruled.
A. Requests from the troops for retaliation measures generally did not come to me at all, for everything that happened to the troops happened generally speaking during combat, and in combat no reprisal measures were ever taken. It cannot merely here concern attacks on police units who perhaps were attacked while supervising the harvesting or carrying out of other similar tasks. In those cases the Higher SS and Police Leader did request retaliation measures, and in as high a ratio as possible in those instances.
Q. Witness, did you inform Army Group F when you wanted retaliation measures, and as to when it was carried out?
A. The information on retaliation measures which had been carried out was received by the Army Group through our daily reports. Generally speaking the Army Group was informed by me, not about details, for instance, when only three or four people were concerned.
Q. Witness, in which manner was an execution ordered by you carried out?
A. The carrying out took place on the basis of an order which was given to the higher SS and Police Leader. The troops, at least in the Serbian area, refrained from all reprisal measures and from the carrying out of all reprisal measures
Q. You, therefore, do not know, witness, how the execution was actually carried out?
A. No, Meissner was usually quite strange, he also treated these matters very secretly and discretely.
Q. Who gave the order for the arresting of hostages?
A. I believe one has to distinguish, that general arrests of hostages were carried out by the Police for purely political reasons; that is to say, out of certain classes of the population they collected persons who seemed suitable to them. Hostage arrests by the local headquarters, as far as I can recollect, did not take place during my time, because we were of the opinion that we would never get the right people and that, in the last instance, the Communists would feel a quiet satisfaction about the fact that we would take people as reprisal measures who were politically their opponents. Therefore, the arrest of hostages -- at least, that is, up to 1943 -- was in the main in the sector of the High SS and Police Leader. We had no possibility whatsoever of applying any methods to really find out whether the hostages taken were actually Communists. The Staff or the Higher Police Leader never showed his cards.
Q. You said, witness, that this situation only applied up to autumn 1943. How were hostages taken as of the Fall of
COURT V CASE VII
1944.
A. The arrest of hostages took place then, too through the activities of the Higher SS and Police Leader. I was in October -- that is, on the 12th of October 1943 -- I found out through a report which came to me by mistake, a report by the Deputy of the Higher SS and Police Leader, Dr. Schaeffer -- then I was informed that Meissner only had five hostages available at that time at his so-called "hostage camp." Therefore, I had to assume that the figures which he usually gave us and which went up to the hundreds, were probably never correct.
Q. Was the number and equipment of the troops subordinate to you in Serbia sufficient to maintain law and order?
A. No, from a purely numerical point of view, I had about 70 to 80 thousand men subordinate to me, in this difficult mountain terrain, the combat troops as well as equipment; also the number was completely insufficient; especially bad was the Bulgarian Occupation Corps.
Q. Witness, what was the highest ratio which you ordered as retaliation measure?
A. I may refuse to answer this question.
Q. Did the ratios go down?
A. Yes, they went down considerably in the daily reports. I received in the reports 50 cases of murder, kidnapping or wounding within my own Serbian area; when I had applied the ratio even to a small extent, I would have had to kill thousands of people.
Q. Why, witness, did you order that ratio to go down?
A. I did not have to give an order to this effect, because the decision rested solely with me, and from the very beginning I had been determined to diminish reprisal measures where at all possible and to raise them in cases where they were really necessary and to apply them according to the severity of the case.
Q. Witness, did you ever, as retaliation, order the burning down of houses?
A. Immediately after my arrival in Belgrade, I was confronted with a request for retaliation -- I think a request by the Higher Police Leader -- I cannot say that for sure, I was asked to order the shooting of about 800 hostages and the burning down of one locality. I, after a long struggle with the Police Leader, decided this order to the effect that this complete reprisal request was not fulfilled; whether at a later date the burning down of houses took place here and there, I cannot say. I think it is, especially in the sector of a Bulgarian unit, quite possible.
Q. Were, according to any of your orders in connection with the reprisal measures, cattle or grain stores of the population confiscated?
A. This question I cannot answer. If it did happen, it can only concern individual isolated cases.
Q. Witness, did you, in your capacity as Military Commander for Serbia and Military Commander Southeast, ever give orders which concerned the taking of hostages from members of families of so-called bandits or partisans?
A. I never did anything like that because I would have considered it nonsensical.
Q. Did you, in your capacity as Military Commander Southeast and Military Commander of Serbia -- did you transfer the population able to bear arms or to work to Germany for work?
A. I had no influence on these matters. I only heard that in earlier years transport of civilian population to Germany was said to have taken place.
At my time the lack of harvest workers was so great in the whole area, especially in Serbia, that we were glad of every single person whom we had received for this work. But it is possible that the Higher SS and Police Leader transferred prisoners of his units to Germany without our knowledge.
Q. Where there hostages camps in Serbia?
A. In my time I knew nothing of a hostage camp.
Q. I am not talking about one hostage camp. I am talking about several.
A. I only heard through a complaint by the Minister President, Nedic, that a collective camp of the Higher SS and Police Leader was the Croatian Area in Semlin; apart from this, I know nothing of any such police camps, in the Serbian area.
Q. Witness, were there concentration camps in Serbia?
A. Not in my time -- at least, not then.
Q. Did Gruppenfuehrer Meissner, in his capacity as Higher SS and Police Leader in Serbia, on the basis of any orders by you, carry out shootings or hangings?
A. When retaliation measures were ordered by me, they went to Meissner as an order.
Q Witness, did the former Fieldmarshal von Weichs ever protest to you about the carrying out of your business?
A No, I had the impression that my Supreme Commander and I agreed completely in this respect.
Q Did the military commanders subordinate to you - at least on paper subordinate to you - did they protest to you about the carrying out of so-called retaliation measures?
Q Do you know in your capacity as former military commander Serbia, whether the units subordinate to you, sent delegations to Serbia?
A I never heard anything about such a delegation, and I think it is quite impossible, since this was merely the territory of the SS and police leaders, which was made clear to me by the initial discussion which I had with Keitel.
Q Witness, did you in your headquarters, in your capacity as Military Commander Southeast, as well as in your capacity as military commander Serbia, - did you hold a court martial?
A No, at least not for these purposes.
Q When you are talking about these purposes, you are talking about retaliation measures?
A Yes, retaliation measures, because the legal business for retaliation measures, these were orders to the SS and police leaders. While under his jurisdiction the Higher Police Leader had his own SS court.
Q I would like to put my question a little clearer.
There ordered shot by you as reprisal, - shot to death, - were they sentenced by a court martial?
JUDGE BURKE: It is not any clearer to me, so far as the translation is concerned.
Q Those who were sentenced by you as reprisal, sentenced to death as reprisal, were they first of all judged by a court martial?
A The persons concerned did not come under my jurisdiction. They were under the jurisdiction of the High SS and Police Leaders. I merely ordered for a certain case, a certain number of hostages to be shot.
One of the Higher SS and police leaders had a court, - legal court proceedings, I do not know which persons he chose.
Q Your order was an order, not a directive?
DR. LATERNSER: I object to this question. This question is a leading question, and I definitely object to it.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CATER: He may answer.
A In my staff, these persons were not judged by a court martial.
Q Witness, I asked you whether your order was considered a strict order?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. It is purely a legal question which the witness cannot answer. He is not a legal expert.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Whether it is a strict order or not, can only be answered by a court. I do not see how he would construe how it might be interpreted by someone.
MR. RAPP: I beg your pardon.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: I do not see how he could construe how it might have been received by the receiver of the order.
MR. RAPP: Very well.
Q Witness, was an execution actually carried out in accordance with your order by the Higher SS and Police Leader?
A I assume that.
Q Did the partisans or bands during your term of office, as military commander southeast, simultaneously military commander, supreme commander, Serbia, - did the partisans wear uniforms during that time?
A They cannot be regarded as wearing a uniform. As partisans they were everything one could possibly imagine. Only in July or August, 1944, when they had Tite did they get it.
DR. LATERNSER: I object, your Honor. The question as it was put is not admissible. The witness was asked whether the partisans wore uniforms.
The witness has said no, he cannot answer that. He has to be asked whether he saw the partisans wear uniforms.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: It might be well to inquire about his knowledge before you ask him a question.
MR. RAPP: Very well, your Honor.
Q Did the military commander subordinate to you, or in the area of Serbia, -- two commanders subordinate to you, ever report to you that the partisans were uniforms?
A On the part of the troops, generally speaking, the partisans as I said before, did not wear any common uniform at all. In a few individual cases they wore insignia, the hammer and sickle, and others wore German uniforms, Italian uniforms, and every kind of civvies. When I was personally present at band quarters I personally convinced myself of the truth of these facts.
Q Witness, were you ever given reports, or did you at any time yourself, during the experiences at the front, see that the partisans' leaders were wearing uniforms?
DR. LATERNSER: I object to the question, whether the partisans were led as a unit cannot be answered by the witness because it cannot be seen. It is therefore not a fact, but again a judgment, and therefore the question is not admissible. He cannot see whether the partisans were led. That is no fact.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: You should let the witness testify to the facts. The Court will draw its own conclusions.
MR. RAPP: Very well.
Q State whether you saw immediately at the front, the enemy which confronted you, and which fought you, were they led?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. I object to the witness answering. He cannot know it; he cannot see it.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Objection sustained.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPP:
Q What impression did you gain of the troops that confronted you from the point of view of leadership?
AAs I said before, up until the summer of 1944, one had the impression that the enemy were what we call in military language a "band". We knew partly also the names of these band leaders. The bands were even partly named after the person, after the name of the band leader.
In July 1944 this picture changed, and from that day on, there was really a kind of military organization recognizable. Even the conception, "division" which Tito gave to his unit, was a bit exaggerated.
Q Witness, did you receive through the so-called Ic channel, reports about the units of the enemy, or did you receive any such report?
AAs it is militarily usual, we tried to estimate the enemy exactly, and for this purpose too the department mentioned just now, Ic, was mainly responsible. This department submitted exact figures on the material and equipment of the enemy, inasmuch as they could recognize it themselves.
THE MARSHAL: The persons in the court room will be seated.
The Tribunal is again in session.
Q Witness, did you ever see, yourself, how retaliation measures came out?
A No.
Q Did the representatives of the OKH or OKW ever come to your headquarters and order you to witness the executions in retaliation measures?
A No, I cannot remember such a measure during my presence in Belgrade. I remember Colonel Gartmeyer and General Warlimont of the Wehrmacht Fuehrungsstab but this visit was carried out for formal reasons, that is, on directives; that did not concern the reprisal measures.
Q Did any of the representatives of Army Group F come to your headquarters for specific reasons in order to witness the implimentation of an execution?
A No.
Q Did you, in your orders, give instructions that parts of the population concerned had to witness the execution?
A No.
Q Witness, do you know the Military Commander Greece personally?
A Yes, I do; I have seen him several times.
Q Do you recognize him here in the court room?
A Yes.
Q Will you kindly point him out?
A Yes, that is the person furtherest on the right.
Q Did the defendant Speidel, the former Military Commander in Greece, ever receive the permission from you to carry out a reprisal measure?
A I cannot remember; I don't believe it.
Q Did the defendant Speidel report to you about the carrying out of retaliation measures?