Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 13 January 1947, 0940-1700, Justice Toms presiding.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, before we go into the Jaegerstab, there are one or two matters which should be cleared up for the sake of the record.
First, if Your Honors will recall, on the first day of the evidence there was a discussion with reference to a translation, and Dr. Bergold and I discussed that in my office, and he is agreeable with the translation as it appears in the document and a was read to Your Honors.
Now, we have the extra page. If Your Honors will recall, in Exhibit 51 which was presented last week, NOKW 198, was a chart which was prepared with reference to the slave labor. I got the original for Your Honors, and it was noted that there was one page which had not been photostated. We now have that page photostated, and we offer that to be added to Exhibit 51, which appears at page 59-A of Document Book 2-B.
And, if Your Honors will recall, in reading the minutes of the 54th session of the Central planning Board, which appeared in Document Book 3-A, there was a discrepancy in the translation. We now have the balance of the pages, and they should be added after page 12 in Document Book 3-A. Page 13 in Document Book 3-4 should be dropped because it is included in this new material, and Page 12, as it appears in your Document Book, should only go down to the bottom of the German page 1816, which is the speech of Sauckel appearing just before the German Page 1824. These pages are offered as an addition to Page 12 of Document Book 3-A, being Exhibit Number 48-A, and they are pages 12-A through H, and with Your Honors' permission, I will read them into the record.
This is a continuation of the 54th meeting of the Central Planning Board, which was held 1 March 1944.
The defendant is talking:
"Milch: Unfortunately Reich Minister Speer is not present today. He certainly must have had his opinion about the whole system. His agreement with Bichelonne was to activate an additional labor supply in France itself for out armament with the aid of existing French capacities. We cannot compute the result here of what that action achieved. Whether the result he dreamed of has been achieved can not be decided just now; that is: have the S-plants given us an increase of armaments which is greater than what we would have achieved if the people had worked in Germany? I would propose that Minister Speer himself one day clarify this problem again. Because if only a negative resuly had been achieved, he would automatically change his point of view, too.
"The first question is: Is the percentage of trained people in the S-plants so great that all the others are to be regarded as rubbish? And the second question is: Is it possible at all, with the lack of so-called executive power and the different opinions on this question, to seize and transfer to Germany the remaining 80 per cent who arc not in the S-plants? So, in view of the general political and organizational conditions in France, would you be able to transfer some 10 - 15 per cent of the best of these 80 per cent?
"Sauckel: I must take them out.
"Milch: Can you do it at all?
"Sauckel: Today I can not promise anything. Today I can only work.
"Milch: I mean if as regards the other 80 per cent your hands are not tied by the different circumstances that, firstly, there is nothing to attract these people to Germany, that secondly they reckon with Germany's defeat in a short time, that thirdly they are attached to their families and to their country and that fourthly they shun work because they can still exist and without it they look on the whole period as a period of transition they expect to get over.
On the other hand you have the fact that the army docs not assist you and that the German authorities are hostile to each other, a fact which is very cleverly utilized by the French.
"Sauckel: That has changed since my last visit. All the German authorities, the military commander, Field Marshal von Runstedt, Field Marshal Sperrle, have supported me considerably in these affairs.
"Milch: I refer to the smaller authorities, the Executives.
"Sauckel: That has boon spoiled--pardon me if I have to bring this up--because all departments, even armaments over there, were of the opinion up to 4 January that my claims and especially my figures were a crazy demand.
"Milch: But only people who thought that could not understand such figures.
"Sauckel: Up to 4 January it was the same everywhere, from the Military Commander to the German Ambassador and the German armament departments. Up to then all the agencies in Franco had in general hold the opinion without exception it has not been decided yet by any means, Sauckel's figures are not correct, so we have to take it easy here. And that penetrated naturally to the lower ranks of French Authorities too.
"Milch: That is just what I mean about the differences of opinion between the different authorities, today, the difference between you and Minister Speer. You say, the best thing for mo is to approach the protected industries; Speer says: Leave those people alone, take 80 per cent away from the others. And if one is neutral, one has to say always under the condition that these 20 percent in the SPlants really achieve something for us. Speer is right when he says: Please do not touch my 20 percent; there are enough among the 80 percent for you to use.
And now I say Why do you not take tho others? Is it so difficult to approach then?
"Sauckel: No. I need tho people as well. The fact is that Spoor's plants are filling up nowadays. For instance, I received the information tho day before yesterday that the urge to work for the protected industries is especially strong just now in France and so the supply of quality work ers to Germany is practically cut off.
People of duality are only to be found in these plants.
"Kehrl: May I explain briefly the opinion of my minister? Otherwise the impression might be created that the measures taken by Minister Speer had been unclear or unreasonable, and I do wish to prevent this from happening. Seen from our viewpoint the situation is as follows: Up to the beginning of 1943 manufacturing for the use of Germany was done in France only to a relatively modest extent, since generally only such work was transferred for which German capacity did not suffice; these were some few individual products, and moreover some basic industries. During all this time a great number of Frenchmen were recruited and voluntarily went to Germany.
"Sauckel: Not only voluntarily; some were recruited forcibly.
"Kehrl: The calling up started after the recruitment no longer yielded enough results, "Sauckel:
Out of the five million foreign workers who arrived in Germany not even 200,000 came voluntarily.
"Kehrl: Let us forget for the moment whether or not some slight pressure was used. Formally, at least, they were volunteers. After this recruitment no longer yielded satisfactory results, we started calling up according to age groups, and with regard to the first age group the success was rather good. Up to eighty percent of the age group was caught and sent to Germany. This started about June of last year. Following developments in the Russian war and the hopes raised thereby in the Western nations, the results of this calling up of age groups became considerably worse, as can be proved by the figures noted; viz., the men tried to dodge this call-up for transport to Germany, partly by simply not registering at all, pertly by not arriving for the transport or by leaving the transport on its way. When they found out through these first attempts that the German executive either was not able or was not willing to catch these shirkers and either to imprison them or take them forcibly to Germany, the readiness to obey the call-ups sank to a minimum.
Therefore, relatively small percentages were caught in individual countries. On the other hand, those men, moved by the fear the German executive might after all be able to catch them, did not enter French, Belgian, or Dutch factories, but took to the mountains where they found company and assistance from the small partisan groups existing there.
"Milch: Another question, Since now through the transfers of industry so much is covered by French labor, as in the textile industry, etc.
, a corresponding number of German workers just necessarily become free as a result.
"Kehrl: Then they will not be required where they would have been required formerly.
"Timm: Nobody is going to be released. Probably other requests will be sent to tho same factories.
"Sauckel: in this respect I must also draw attention to the fact that the German factories which were slut down wore much more up to date and probably worked with loss personnel than tho French factories.
"Milch: But we do want all the factories to work for armaments.
"Kehrl: That would also result in spreading tho risk in case of air warfare.
"Filch: I believe the system to be good, as a still severer commitment of workers for Germany would have the effect of making a considerable part of them remain over there for good. I wish you had something at the back of you to make tho thing a necessity. I do not think that anyone in France will enforce it.
"Sauckel: How about Germany setting about the thing in tho right way. It is not the insignificant French workman who should be punished, but the French policeman, who, instead of supplying people to Germany, goes to them beforehand and says: 'I'm coming tomorrow; you'd better get out,' The French subordinate and intermediary authorities have to be punished.
"Filch: Even if Bichelonne and Laval have the best intention there will be resistance from the mayors, the gendarmes, and the prefects, just because those people are afraid that firstly, they will be called to account afterwards for this affair, and secondly because of their national point of view, which makes them say: 'We must not work for the enemy of our country." Therefore I would like to have an authority in our administration which would force these people to do it, because then the French could say:
"If you force us, we will do it, but voluntarily we will not do it.' The same applies to Italy. There they say: 'Who knows who will win, whether it will be Mussolini or Badoglio or the King; only if you force us we are ready to do it.' Therefore we have to have some tiling on our side which will exercise this pressure. I don't at all see why big divisions should be necessary for this. The existing forces should be sufficient to accomplish it.
"Timm: I have the feeling that in this problem we are keeping too close to the question of figures and are overlooking the question of quality. The present development may permit us to fulfill our programs with regard to figures, but in the demands made by the factories the important thing for them is to have so many metal workers, etc. Then we practically have to say:
'You will get only unskilled workers.'
"Kehrl: This point is clear to all of us. The plants are getting unskilled workers, at the utmost it may be possible to obtain quality workers by transferring plants from Italy to Germany.
"Sauckel: Then it will happen that in the course of years the factories will declare: 'We cannot use these workers.' And over against this you have the fact that in France we have a reservoir of unused skilled workers.
"Milch: I am not worrying about that. Naturally our plants will say: 'We want skilled workers.' But they also need a certain number of unskilled workers.
"Timm: Will it not happen that the offices making the demands say one day: 'But we know that in the French plants there is an excess of skilled workers which cannot be justified?'
"Milch: That should be discussed again later with Speer himself. First Speer must have a survey of what has happened as the result of all his agreements.
I can imagine that first he immediately Introduces a propertionate number so that the extent of the output in the S-plants is fixed, and that secondly it is decided later on that if a part of the S-plants has not worked properly after a certain period, they lose their protection again and the people from those plants can be transferred collectively. I can foresee now already that air armaments a part of the plants will turn out such bad production that I shall not be interested in keeping them up. So that protection for certain plants will simply be lifted again. And this will have a positive effect on the other plants, too, because they will say: 'If we do not work decently, we shall be transferred.' Now during the transfer it is necessary to see that the people really do arrive and do not run away before or during the transfer. If a transport has left a town and has not arrived, 500 to 600 persons from this place must be arrested and sent to Germany as prisoners of war.'
Here we have a Field, Marshal, a member of the Wehmacht, recommending in an order that forced labor be brought to his country that if when a transport leaves, some of them don't show up in Germany, to get the questionable benefits of the Third Reich's policy with reference to those laborers, ho says, "arrest five or six hundred people and send then to Germany as prisoners of war," probably to be sent to Mr. Himmler's stalag.
"Such a thing is than talked about everywhere. If actions like this and other similar ones are carried out often, they would exert a certain pressure. The whole thing would be made easier if we had control of food. The stuff offered by the black market has to come from a certain depot, and there we ought to cut in.
"Kehrl: That is difficult. The transport of food by parcel post has taken on extraordinary proportions in Franco.
"Milch: I personally as military commander would confiscate all goods sent by parcel post."
Again indicating that fine demeanor ho had toward everything connected with this slave labor program, he suggests there that the military commanders confiscate all the parcel post packages.
There is one more document which appears in Your Honors' Document Book 4, which should be offered at this time. page 118
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, may I interrupt before you leave this document, this document refers to protected industries and S-Plants.
MR DENNEY: These, if Your Honor please, are the same. That was a plan whereby Spoor and his ministry set up certain protections over plants in foreign territories whereby the product of those plants was coming into the German war economy, and anybody who worked there was exempt from being seized for forced labor.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood that; but they are synonymous?
MR DENNEY: Yes, as I understand it; yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: "S-Plants" means "protected industries"?
MR DENNEY: Yes. It happens to be a difference in translations. One translator works on one part and calls it "S-Plants" which is the German indication for it, some one else works on another cart and calls it protected industries, In Document Book 4 at Page 118, this is an interrogation of Speer conducted on 18 October 1945, by Lt Col Murray I. Curfein.
It was conducted here in Nurnberg, and this is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 68a. Hr King, in his presentation of the Jaeger Stab, will have occasion to refer to it at some length. However, the first
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, you will remember, that in your decision-- I am sure you will remember this-- You granted me an interrogation of Mr. Speer as a witness. I an of the opinion now that in this case where a certain 395A man will appear here as a witness in court.
Affidavits and previous interrogations should not be presented, merely cross-examinations, and the prosecution could submit the corresponding charges. In the case of Military Tribunal No. 1 it was generally done in this manner. Affidavits and statements of persons certain to be interrogated generally should not be introduced.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I don't agree with Dr. Bergold's conception of the ruling of the International Military Tribunal. Speer has been requested by him as a witness. We have not objected to Speer being called. This is an interrogation, not an affidavit, and Your Honors are familiar with the provisions of the charter with reference to interrogations. It has whatever probative value Your Honors want to give it. It was made at a time some time past. If Dr. Bergold wants to ask him questions about it when he calls him here as a witness, he is certainly entitled to. But I certainly don't have to call Speer to ask him about this.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it your plan, Dr. Bergold, to call Speer as a witness?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor. The Tribunal has made a decision to this effect, granting me the examination of Speer as a witness. At least that was told me by the Secretary General.
THE PRESIDENT: And Speer is available as a witness?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Denney, do I understand that you would be willing, in the event this document is introduced, that the defense counsel may regard what is contained in the document as testimony already introduced in court for the purpose of cross examination?
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, in your question, Your Honor, I can see a difficulty. We have been taught the following during the International Military Tribunal No. 1: If we call upon a witness, we can interrogate him but not cross-examine him.
I cannot charge the witness with what the prosecutor has presented in the cross-examination because of the rule that if I request the witness I may not cross-examine him. At least that was told us during the International Military Tribunal. However, if Your Honors are of a different opinion, if Your Honors think that I may present the witness with these statements, then my objection becomes unfounded and void.
MR. DENNEY: Of course, if Your Honor please, our position about this document is this: Speer is of necessity to be regarded as a hostile witness. He is now serving, I believe, a twenty year sentence. He was a co-worker with the defendant. This is a statement that he made. The statement shows that there was no duress in it. It was voluntary. It was made after he turned all his documents over to Mr. Justice Jackson, which appears in the record of the first case. We offer it for such probative value as Your Honors see fit to give it.
THE PRESIDENT: In view of the fact that the witness will be here, Dr. Bergold will have an opportunity to examine him, at least, either as a friendly or a hostile witness, and especially with regard to the matters that are in this interrogatory, there will be no limitation upon Dr. Bergold's examination; and if he can induce Speer to repudiate the interrogatory or to modify it by means of cross-examination, of course he has that right. The interrogatory will be admitted.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We haven't located the document, Mr. Denney. Will you give us the page again?
MR. DENNEY: It may be page 104, Your Honor. I have 118 but the note I have at the bottom says page 104, starting 104, Document Book 4.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit number, please?
MR. DENNEY: Exhibit No. 68.
THE PRESIDENT: Will there be more than one volume of 4?
MR. DENNEY: No, sir. There is just 4, and then after that comes 5, the medical experiments book. Starting about the third question:
"Q. I wanted to ask you to day about the Central Planning Beard.
"A. Yes.
"Q. Were you the chairman of that office?
"A. The Central Planning Beard was no office as such, it was a place where decisions wore made. The Central Planning Board was not led by me but the decisions were made by three men in common -- by Milch, Keerner and myself. After we took over the production department from the Ministry of Economics the fourth man, Funk, was added.
"Q. And did you attend all the meetings of this Central Planning Beard yourself?
"A. I took part in all sessions except from February until May, when I was sick.
"Q. In what year?
"A. In 1944.
"Q. And while you were away, during February to May 1944, did you receive reports of the proceedings so as to be in touch with the situation?
"A. I was kept informed of all current events by the chief of my ministry. The exact minutes of the sessions of the Central Planning Board I only read later.
"Q. So that when you returned to work in May 1914 you went over all the minutes of the decisions and discussions of the Central Planning Board, I take it?
"A. I don't remember this exactly, but you must remember that when I returned after my sickness I came into the middle of much work and the plane attacks were going on at that time. I more or less tried to catch up with the information that I had missed with the use of certain key words in order to donate what had happened in my absence. But I will say now, frankly, that if a decision has been made, no matter what its nature, tint I will tell you about it if I know about it now, even if I did not knew about it at the time it was made.
"Q. Who was your representative in the Central Planning Board at the time of your illness?
"A. In the case of absence of one of the members of the Contral Planning Board no deputy was chosen but one of the other members took over the functions of the absentee.
"Q. Who was it?
"A. I believe it was Milch in this case.
"Q. You mean that you were acting as the Chairman of the Central Planning Board before you became ill and that Milch took your place as Chairman?
"A. There was no Chairman in the Central Planning Board as such, the three members had equal jurisdiction and powers, thus Milch was not Chairman when I was absent. In practice, however, it happened that milch and I would usually agree upon what to do and Keerner played a subordinate part more or loss.
"Q. But to represent the production office of yours you must have had a man there to represent your interests during the time of your illness?
"A. May I say the following here. We agreed that in the Central Planning Board Milch and I would not represent special interests. If that had been so, there would have had to be other representatives beside us. For instance, there would have been one for the Navy and also somebody to represent the other main factors. We agreed that we would be impartial in representation on the Board and that we would not be there as representatives of our representative Ministries.
THE PRESIDENT: That should probably be "respective ministries".
MR. DENNEY: That is as much as I wanted to read at this time, Your Honor. We never did present to the Secretary General B-124. We have it here now. We will hand it up. The documents have been completed. That completes this pant. Mr. King will now take over. He will present the case with reference to the Jaegerstab.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The Tribunal understands you have rested your case on the slave labor feature of the indictment.
MR. DENNEY: No. If your Honor please, this Jaegerstab also has to do with the slave labor feature.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You have rested on one feature?
MR. DENNEY: On the general background and Milch's participation so far as Central Planning is concerned. We are now going into 1944. Mr. King will now proceed.
MR. KING: If Your Honor please, we are waiting momentarily for a chart showing the organization of the Jaegerstab - the general set-up.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, the translation difficulty which we referred to a little earlier and which we had discussed with Dr. Bergold, was in reference to Document 016-PS, which is Exhibit 13.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, concerning this statement made by Mr. Denney I would like to say the following: I have come to an agreement with him that the present translation shall remain because Mr. Denney told me the English translation refers not only to the financial part but also to general employment as such.
MR. DENNEY: Referring to the question of expenditure, the Doctor thought "expenditure" meant only the money part. I said "expenditure" was used in the document to mean everything. It was not just money.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the difficulty been cleared up between you?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, if Your Honor please.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
MR. KING: If Your Honor please, the prosecution begins now the presentation of that phase of its case dealing with the defendant Milch's partici pation in the Jaegorstab.
I might add that has to do with the slave labor phase of the Milch case.
First, I wish to say a few words about the background of the Jaegerstab. The Jaegerstab was formed on March 1, 1944 by decree of Albert Speer issued pursuant to an order of Adolf Hitler. Our evidence will show, however, that it was the defendant Milch who conceived and instigated the formation of the Jaegerstab.
The purpose of the Jaegerstab was the increased production of fighter aircraft. Fighter plane production had suffered severe set-backs due to British and American air attacks. Defendant Milch and his Luftwaffe had also suffered in the battle for new raw materials and workers had hampered the spare armament industry.
Fighter aircraft were Germany's principal defense against bombing raids. Early in 1944 the defendant Milch had concluded that without adequate fighter protection the entire German armament industry would soon be destroyed. After repeated urgings, Milch was finally successful in his efforts to create a special commission of top officials from various ministries to undertake a special effort in the field of fighter production.
The Jaegerstab, therefore, was actually a concentration of experts drawn from various ministries. Our evidence will show that the defendant Milch and Speer were designated as the joint chiefs of the Jaegerstab with Karl Adolf Sauer acting as the Chief of Staff.
The methods adopted by the Jaegerstab in the execution of its tasks were (1) transfer of German aircraft industry under Grogg, (2) the decentralization of German aircraft industry, (3) quick repair of bombed-out plants.
Our proof will show that the labor for this program, which was the decisive consideration in the discussions of the Jaegerstab, was obtained from throe sources: (1) Sauckel Ministry, (2) concentration camps, (3) by direct recruitment from occupied countries.
The first series of documents which the prosecution will introduce show the background and operating procedure of the Jaegerstab.
The first document in this series is NOKW 317. It is prosecution exhibit Number 69. It is on page 3 of the English Document Book; page 2 of the German document book.
301-A This is an interrogation of former Field Marshal Milch held on October 14, 1946.
In this interrogation the defendant describes the economic and political background of the formation of the Jaegerstab stating that the Luftwaffe had been shortchanged in the administration of armaments by Herr Sauer of the Speer Ministry.
Part of the interrogation which I shall read starts on page 5 of the English Document Book and Page 6 of the German Document Book. It starts with a question, "How long were you leader of the Jaegerstab?" I will continue reading.
"A. The Jaegerstab was founded on my suggestion around the end of February or the middle of March, 1944. I resigned on 20 June 1944 as Director General of Air Force Equipment Generalluftzaignmeister and State Secretary. Then for a few days I only did the transfer work. As far as I know, that was approximatly only July or August. One of Speer's men, Sauer, arrived then and he then took over the whole matter. From then on I had absolutely nothing to do with it. I believe it was from I August on, and during this time I have only worked on the transfer.
"Q. What was your job as chief of the Jaegerstab?
"A. May I briefly depict the historical motives?
"Q. Please do.
"A. Already previously the whole administration of armaments was in the hands of Speer's ministry. Thereby we in the Luftwaffe incurred disadvantages. The man who prejudiced us for the benefit of the army and the navy was this Mr. Sauer, who was Department Head for Armament matters on the staff of Speer. For a period we engaged in weekly conferences with Speer in order to remove all these injustices. Many assurances were given, but few of them were kept. Speer himself had the good will but apart from him his Mr. Sauer made his own business flourish. And the result was that we were unable to produce sufficient fighter planes because we were not given enough assistance in all spheres. However, this support was particularly necessary for us because since July 1943 the Luftwaffe industry had been the main bombing target, especially in daytime of the American airforce and also severely at night of the English.
As a result of this, we could only raise our plan of increasing the production of fighter planes to a certain degree and could not proceed any further. Approximately 1000 fighter planes. However, we wanted to reach 3000, that was my suggestion at the time, which I submitted when I took up my office. When these discussions with Speer did not show any real success --they had helped somewhat, but not decisively -- Speer became severely ill at the end of 1943 and early 1844. Now Sauer did not have anybody to hamper him anymore. And that was when I had the idea to establish a mutual commission between us and the Speer ministry only for the purpose of increasing the production of fighter planes. That was the only task with which the Jaegerstab was charged."
THE PRESIDENT: Should not that word be "pamper"?
MR. KING: No, "hamper", Your Honor. The idea is that Sauer was interfering with the production of the Luftwaffe armament and the implication is that with Speer ill Sauer had complete control of the Armaments Ministry and was not allocating sufficient workers or raw material to the Luftwaffe.
"I now demanded that Sauer also was to join the Jaegerstab. After several refusals by Speer. I had visited him at the hospital, after his suggestion had been disapproved, he was a politician, who, however, did not have any understanding of our affair -- he gave in and agreed that Sauer also joined. And thus the Jaegerstab consisted of Speer, myself, and Sauer."
This document helps to show the Jaegerstab was founded on the instigation of the defendant Milch and that it was he who originally conceived the idea for this joint commission.
I would like to offer in evidence Document Number NOKW - 017, rather, if Your Honor please, this document has already been introduced and it is Prosecution Exhibit Number 5-A. This document is on Page 12 in Your Honors' Document Book; page 13 in the German Document Book.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Mr. King, when you refer to a document book, would it be too much trouble to tell us the number?
MR. KING: I will do that, Your Honor. The Exhibit Number of the next document which I am going to read is Prosecution Exhibit Number 58. This document contains minutes of a conference of defendant Milch with Air Force Engineers, Chief Quartermasters, held on Saturday, March 25, 1944.