Rascher's investigations had not the slightest thing to do with these things and that is to be seen very clearly from the reports of Rascher to Himmler.
Q. You say "very cleanly", and we have just heard Dr. Alexander who said that all of this fell within one frame-work. How will you please explain to us a little more precisely.
A. When it is said that these experiments fall all within one framework, then this must be a very, very large framework. One can say that both experiments, so far as they arr mentioned in the report to Himmler and so far as they arr mentioned in our report, they had something or other to do with altitude, and that would be the framework within which they both fall, but it can by no means be said that Rascher's experiments had anything in any way to do with bailing out by parachutes.
Q. That was what this task was about, in other words, to find how to save people who jumped out from great heights?
A. Yes, that was the case clearly defined and clearly worked out, the experimental plan with which Romberg went to Dachau.
Q. But in what way did Rascher's experiments deviate from these experiments? You must give a very precise description of this, otherwise we hear empty words and have no clear picture.
A. So far as I can judge, Rascher's experiments, and from the scanty reports to Himmler, he, for instance carried out experiments in which the experimental person was kept at the same altitude for a long period of time. In parachute jumping, of course, from the moment on at which they leave the plane, the person never remains at the same altitude, rather he falls from a great height downward, that would be the point.
Q. But in this report an experiment is described namely, an experiment of Romberg on himself in which he also remains at one height for a long time.
A. I believe because of this experiment and Rascher's experiments explained precisely this fact, and the interpretation attached to the results of the two experiments, that here he described something in the realm of experiments on a person's self which falls entirely outside the framework of this experimentation with the parachute jump. It is expressly stressed, the experiments as stated there for explanation it is the question of experiments in high altitude, and for this reason in the case of the experiments involving the parachute jumps, on the experimental persons there were very few external symptoms, sometimes there were more obvious symptoms, to find out where they came from, these two experiments on themselves were carried out. If such experiments had belonged in the rank of the parachute experiments, then more of them would have been described, and not merely these two self experiments would have been described in the report.
Q. You then wish to persist in your assertion that there were no fatalities within the rank of the Luftwaffe experiments?
A. In these experiments there were no fatalities.
Q. You spoke previously of the fact that Rascher has used other experimental persons. That distinction is to be drawn between the experimental persons who took part in the experiments described in the report and the socalled other experimental persons?
A. Regarding the experimental persons Romberg and Rascher used for the experiments I approved and I can report on them precisely, but on the experimental persons Rascher used, I can only repeat what the Prosecution has told us, and by repeating what Rascher said about his experimental persons.
Q. Please do so.
A. Our experimental persons were condemned and habitual prisoners who had volunteered for these experiments. These experimental persons were housed in a common room, and were taken care of as a group, well taken care of and were given tobacco and so forth. In other words, it was definitely a separate experimental group, and as regards the status of Rascher's experimental persons I can only repeat what the Prosecution said.
They are said to have been members of various nationalities, even prisoners of war and so on. From personal experience I 1099a can say nothing about these experimental persons.
Q. Did you at that time choose the people for your own experiments?
A. No, I did not do so myself.
Q. Who did it for you?
A. The choice of the experimental persons was carried out by the management of the concentration camp Dachau, under the experimental directive for the carrying out of experiments themselves.
Q. Are you sure they were really volunteers?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you assure yourself of that?
A. I was once in Dachau to look at the conduct of these experiments and spoke with the experimental persons in connection with the experiments which had been carried out and asked them what had been their life previously and asked them why they were in concentration camps and also asked how many had volunteered for these experiments, and I must emphasize that there was no doubt in my mind that these were voluntary persons and that I never asked a specific question, such as: Did you volunteer? That question I did not ask. That was simply assumed, taken as a matter of course by myself. I asked, rather, how many had volunteered for these experiments, and I was told approximately sixty.
Q. Witness, how were you so sure they were volunteers?
A. There was no doubt in my mind, since first of all the chief of the medical inspectorate of the Luftwaffe had months previously given his approval in principle and there was no doubt in my mind that he would never have given his approval under any circumstances unless it had been a question of volunteers, and he also informed me of this fact.
Q. Witness, that was not quite an answer to my question. You could have been deceived by the SS Camp Commander?
A. That is possible, of course, but before I went to Dachau I was with Romberg once in Berlin. He informed me of these experiments. Since I had never undertaken previously experiments in a prison or penitentiary or concentration, it is understandable that I first asked him if those things were really being carried out as they were being set down. I asked him what sort of people were really being used for experiments and I was told serious criminals. I asked what "serious criminals" were. Romberg informed me. I asked him if he personally discussed the voluntary aspects of their participation with the prisoners. He answered that he did. I knew ail these things when I went to Dachau.
Q. Witness, did you not have any misgivings about carrying out such experiments even with volunteers because such appoint of view was entirely new in science throughout the world?
A. No. Not at all. In medical research in the whole world, it is customary to carry out experiments in this form and on such persons; on criminals, on prisoners in camps and so on.
Q. It is also described in literature that criminals condemned to death are used voluntarily in such experiments?
A. Yes. It is described in literature in the case of criminals condemned to death who volunteer and even those who do not volunteer. Such cases are described in world literature.
Q. Do you know the passages in world literature because Dr. Alexander is not familiar with them?
A. I personally have read them in literature, although, at the moment, I am not able to cite the passages exactly, but that is not difficult. In the description of small pox vaccinations, which experiments in England finally led to a successful vaccination George I, of England, for this purpose used six criminals who had been condemned to death. The physicians has certain misgivings about this sort of experimentation, however, not medical misgivings though. He said to himself, "If one of these people dies during the experiment, then I have taken over the function of the executioner, and there is then the danger that I will be considered guilty by my colleagues for the death of the experimental person."
However, the experiment was nevertheless carried on. All six survived as far as I know. The experiment was then repeated on six orphans.
Q. In other words, it is set down in literature that such experiments are made on criminals condemned to death?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not also so that even imprisoned persons who are not condemned to death are subject to such experiments voluntarily?
A. To a very large extent. You do not have to go as far back as I did in my previous example. The fact is that in very important epidemics, many such experiments are carried out, for example, during the war in the United States.
Q. I am only interested in European states at the moment. Were experiments of this sort carried out in European States?
A. In all the cultural states of the world, such experiments have been carried out.
Q. Witness, when did the high-altitude experiments end?
A. They ended at the end of May. May be the first few days of June.
Q. You cannot say for sure?
A. I cannot say that the chamber was already in Berlin before the first of June.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, I maybe a little time with this witness. In order that he is not prevented from talking to counsel over the weekend, perhaps I better not start my cross-examination until Monday. There is a rule in Tribunal One, that if any person is being cross-examined, he is not available for interrogations or discussions with counsel. I would rather wait until Monday, if Your Honor please?
THE PRESIDENT: Plainly, you could not finish with him this afternoon, so you would rather not do it piecemeal?
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We have made such good progress, I do not think we will begrudge the ten minutes we could continue.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor wants me to I will ask him some questions
THE PRESIDENT: I think not. Let us have it all in one bite. The Court will recess until 9:30 on Monday morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is recessed until 0930, 17 February, 1947 (The Tribunal adjourned until 17 Feb.
1947 at 0930 hours) Official transcript of the the American Military Tribunal in the matter of United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 17 , February, 1947, 0930.
Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in tho courtroom please find your seats. The Honorable, tho Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in tho Court.
SIEGFRIED RUFF - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. May it please Your Honors. Witness, when did you first discuss the altitude experiments?
A. I don't quite understand the question. What do you mean by "discussed"?
Q. Do you know what "discussed" means? When did you first talk about the altitude experiments?
A. Do you mean talked about it to anybody at all or delivered a report on it?
Q. Before the experiments took place.
A. Roughly, the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942.
Q. And with whom did you talk about it?
A. With Professor Weltz.
Q. Where did that talk take place?
A. In my institute.
Q. In Berlin?
A. Yes. In Berlin.
Q. When did you first talk to Dr. Hippke about them?
A. Shortly thereafter -- a few days thereafter; also, in other words, at the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942.
Q. And this was all before the experiments started?
A. Yes, before they began, yes.
Q. And at that time you talked About the serious nature of the experiments?
A. With Professor Hippke and Professor Weltz, I spoke of the dangers involved in the experiments: whether or not these existed; other words, discussed the risk involved.
Q. And when did you first learn that concentration camp inmates were going to be used?
Those experimental persons who wore to come from concentration 1105(a) camps were discussed for the first time when Professor Weltz at the end of '41 or the beginning of '42 was in my institute.
Q And when you talked about it later with Hippke, you discussed the fact that concentration camp inmates would be used?
A Yes.
Q And did he tell you that he had misgivings about them? He wanted to be sure that people were used who have been condemned to death?
A We talked regarding the entire question of the use of prisoners. He told me, on this occasion, that regarding the question of using prisoners, he, roughly at the beginning of 1941, had talked this over with Weltz, Rascher and Rottenhoff in Munich; and on this occasion, he stated his basic approval of this procedure on the condition that exclusively serious criminals should be used who were involved for these experiments.
Q In this talk with Hippke, it was shortly after you talked with Weltz, either late in '41 or early in '42?
A Yes, in connection with that talk with Weltz.
Q when did you first go to Dachau in connection with these experiments?
A I think that was in the end of January or the beginning of February 1942; again, not very long after the talk with Professor Hippke.
Q And when did the experiments start?
AAt the end of February or the beginning of March.
Q Whom did you see when you went down to Dachau the first time either at the end of January or the beginning of February '42?
A I was in Dachau at the same time as my collaborator Romberg, with Weltz, Rascher and two officers of the SS of the Camp,Dachau took part in the conversations.
Q Did you see any of the experimental subjects at that time?
A I was there for the first time, no.
Q. And you had this meeting there with two SS Officers, Romberg, Rascher, Weltz , and you discussed the experiments?
A. We did not discuss tho experiments themselves in detail. The officers in the camp were interested only in what was going to be done in a broad outline and just what tho danger was that was involved in this experiment. It was a relatively short talk which concerned itself essentially with the technical pre-requisites for the experiment; how much electric current, what accommodations,rooms, and so on.
Q. And who ordered the low-pressure chamber down to Dachau?
A. Who brought it down or who gave the order? Which do you mean?
Q. Who ordered tho chamber to be brought to Dachau?
A. Who ordered the chamber to be brought to Dachau?
Q. The low-pressure chamber, which before the experiments was in the DVL, was brought by myself to Dachau with the help of transport workers of the DVL , after I had received Hippke's authorization.
Q. So Hippke ordered that it be brought down and you brought it down with some other people?
A. Hippke gave mo the authorization to take the chamber to Dachau.
Q. And after that, did you go back to Dachau again?
A. Subsequently, at one time when the experiments were going on I was in Dachau.
Q. When you first took tho chamber down there, which you say was late in February, did the experiments start right away?
A. So far as I know, they did not begin immediately, But between the time when tho chamber was brought to Dachau and the tine that tho experiments began, there was a short interval.
Q. So you took the chamber to Dachau and then you wont back to Berlin?
A. I myself, did not take the chamber to Dachau, I was net present when it was actually taken there.
Q. Did you, at that time --- you said that you and some SS people 1107(a) brought it from Berlin on Hippke's authorization?
A. No, I didn't say any SS people and myself brought tho chamber to Dachau, I said rather, with the authorization of Hippke, tho chamber was taken by transport workers of the DVL to Dachau.
Q. You didn't have anything to do with moving it down there?
A. I, personally? No.
Q. When did you go back to Dachau then? We have the first visit in January-February '42, then the chamber gets down there, and then when did you got back again?
A. When tho experiments were in their first few weeks I, myself, went to Dachau and inspected the experiments there.
Q. Were tho experiments performed?
A. Yes.
Q. Was anybody killed?
A. No.
Q. When was this that you wont down there to inspect?
A. During tho first weeks during which tho experiments were going on, but I can't tell you precisely when that was.
Q. Was it in March '42?
A. I assume it was, yes.
Q. Did Romberg report to you that some deaths had taken place?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When did he report that to you first?
A. The end of April or the beginning of May.
Q. How many did he toll you had taken place?
A. One.
Q. And what did you do when he told you that?
A. When Romborg gave no this report that on the occasion of the experiments that Rascher undertook, on his own initiative, ostensibly on Himmler's orders, I discussed with Romborg in great detail, on the basis of the minutes that were kept on our experiment what was to be done. We were in agreement that we should break off 1108(a) these experiments as soon as possible and send the chamber back to Berlin.
I then attempted to r each Hippke, however, he was on an official trip, and then told Romberg, who was going back to Berlin, to end the experiments and to send the chamber back to Berlin.
Q. Hippke was away and you couldn't get in touch with him? Bid you try to get in touch with him again?
A. Shortly after Romberg had gone back to Dachau, I reached Hippke, visited him, and told him of ' what had occurred.
Q. You told him someone had been killed?
A. I told him that there had been a fatality, that in our opinion Rascher was carrying out experiments on his own initiative, the experimental goal of which was not clear to me, that their justification was not clear to me either, and that for this reason I had given orders that our experiments be terminated although they had not gone as far as we really wanted them to, and that we had seen to it that the chamber was returned from Dachau as soon as possible.
Q. Did you hear about any more deaths down there?
A. Later I heard that there were further death cases down there.
Q. When did you hear that?
A. I heard that, as far as I recall, after the return of the chamber after Romberg's return.
Q. Did Romberg tell you within a week or two after he had made his first trip to tell you of the initial fatality that two more deaths had occurred?
A. He did tell me of two further fatalities. This he told me after the chamber was returned to Berlin, and as far as I can recall the time today, it was three or four or five days after the chamber was returned that he called me up and informed me that we were finished and that the drivers could fetch the chamber, and on this occasion, as far as I can still recall today, he then informed me that Rascher had made two further experiments but he told me no details.
Q. He did not tell you that anybody died?
A. No, he could do that only with difficulty over the telephone.
Q. Afraid somebody might be listening from the SS?
A. Yes, that would have been a possibility.
Q. So, you only heard about one death then?
A. At first only of one, and then later of two further ones.
Q. When did he tell you about these two further deaths, just at the time that he told you that the experiments were concluded?
A. As I said, when he returned with the chamber he told me about the fatalities.
Q. When was it? What month?
A. In May.
Q. May of 1942. Did you tell Hippke about these?
A. At the beginning of June I visited Hippke again, and we spoke of the chamber and of Rascher's experiments once more. For this reason, namely, because at this discussion there was a letter from the SS, namely from General of the Waffen-SS Wolf in which this man demanded or requested that the chamber be left for a longer time in Dachau; on this occasion I told Hippke that, in addition to this one case cf which I had informed him, Rascher, as far a.s we knew, had in addition carried on a whole series of experiments. We did know that for certain that he had carried on individual experiments, but we assumed that he did not stop with these individual experiments but carried on many others.
Q. Well, the chain cf command was Hippke, Ruff, Romberg, Rascher, was it not?
A. The military chain of command? Is that what you mean? That is not entirely correct, what you said.
Q. Well, you tell me what is correct then. Tell me what the chain of command was.
A. There was one via Hippke. Hippke as Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe was Rascher's highest superior in his capacity as a Luftwaffe officer. This chain of command, as far as I could judge, was not direct but via a Luftgau command on the Weltz's institute and then to Rascher, but I should like to emphasize here that my knowledge cf the military chain of command within the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe is not absolutely certain, but that is my notion of what that chain of command was.
Q. Well, you could certainly tell Romberg what to do, couldn't you?
A. I? Romberg was my subordinate, yes.
Q. And you reported to Hippke, didn't you?
A. I reported to Hippke, yes, but between me and Hippke was no military chain of command.
Q. You were not actually in the army were you? Haven't you always said that you were a civilian during all this?
A. Yes.
Q. But you worked for the Laftwaffe?
A. He worked for the Luftwaffe and for civilian aeronautical societies, For industry and such.
Q. As far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, anything that you had to do it if you would go to see Hippke; wouldn't you?
A. Not entirely, no.
Q. Whom would you see?
A. That depended.
Q. Well, about the high altitude experiments; whom would you go to see?
A. In the high altitude experiments I went to Hippke for the following reasons: The portable low pressure chamber that had to be used for these purposes belonged to the Medical Inspectorate. Consequently; for these experiments I had to apply to Hippke for the use of this chamber. In addition these experiments were a collaboration between one of my co-workers with a.scientist who was not directly but indirectly subordinated to Hippke. It was of course; understood that in such matters I had to go to Hippke to inform him of what was being planned.
Q. So he was the responsible person directly above you as far as the Luftwaffe was concerned in these experiments; wasn't he?
A. Hippke was in my opinion and as far as I could judge the chain of command was indirectly at least responsible for Stabsartz of the Luftweffe Rascher, but I already said that the chain of command was not known to me in such detail as to permit me to assert this with certainty.
Q. Do you remember being interrogated on 22 October 1946?
A. I was interrogated at the end of 1946. Whether it was on 22 October I no longer recall.
Q. You were asked this question? "The high altitude experiments were ordered by the following channels of command". It is in reverse order; of course; that they are said here. "Romberg; Ruff, Hippke; Milch." Do you remember when you were asked that by Captain Koff?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you remember what you answered to it?
A. I presume that the answer was yes, but on Friday while being interrogated by Mich's Counsel I was told that opinion of mine at that time was erroneous.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, is the interrogation from which you just read in evidence?
MR DENNEY: No, Your honor, it is not. We plan to offer it at a later time, I am just probing his power to recollect.
BY MR DENNEY:
Q. Did you order any other steps to be taken with reference to Rascher after these deaths were reported to you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So you knew that some people had died and you didn't do anything about it.
A. No.
Q. Do you know how many experiments were carried out down there?
A. You mean in numbers? No.
Q. Do you know how many experimental subjects they had?
A. Yes.
Q. How Many?
A. Ten.
Q. Ten? Didn't you tell the Court on Friday that they had 60?
A. Not I, no. T hat was probably falsely translated.
Q. Don't you remember when you were down in Dachau, going to see these people; you told the Court that you must emphasize "There was no doubt in my mind that these were voluntary persons, that I never asked the specific question, such as 'Did you volunteer,' but that was simply assumed, taken as a matter of course by myself, I asked rather, How many had volunteered for these experiments, and I was told approximately 60."