A. Yes, I know that, but I don't remember the date.
Q. Was that in the summer of 1944?
A. That may have been in the summer of 1944; I don't remember the year, however.
Q. In the summer of 1944 you don't believe he could have gotten such an authorization?
A. No, as I mentioned before, I believe it is almost impossible.
Q. Witness, do you know that the defendant Milch and General von Gablenz helped a former associate of Milch, Dr. Schatzky, to escape from Germany and to go to America?
A. Yes, Dr. Schatzky is known to me.
Q. I want you to tell the Tribunal who he was.
A. Schatzky was working with the German Lufthansa. He had to leave the Lufthansa because he was a Jew, and with the help of the Field Marshal he was sent to Holland and when the situation was no longer bearable there for Schatzky the now already dead General von Gablenz came and discussed the matter with the Field Marshal and the Field Marshal saw to it that Schatzky could go to the states.
Q. Witness, isn't it correct that in general the defendant saw only those letters which bore the signature "MI" with red pencil and the date?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Were those letters always dealt with by him or did he only read them?
A. That meant that the Field Marshal only saw them. That's all.
Q. Witness, do you know that in the Central Planning Board in the Jaegerstag the technical discussions they took verbatim records?
A. I don't know that. The verbatim records were always taken and were then presented or submitted.
Q. Were they ever reviewed by the defendant or by somebody else? Does that mean in every case that the Minister actually read that, actually ordered that or was that usual as the style of the German officials that a representative always wrote in the "I" form?
A. In those offices there were two styles. The "I" style and the unpersonal style. This did not at all mean when I used the "I" style that the Reichsmarshal or the Field Marshal had any idea at all of this letter.
Q. Is it correct that very often the reporters came to you and wanted to have letterhead papers with the defendant's name on it?
A Yes, that was usual.
Q Did you know that Milch very often criticized Hitler, Goring, Himmler, and Goebbels.
A Yes. Well, once in a while I heard something similar.
Q Did you know that such terms were used during the discussions and conference and that he told the stenographers to skip these passages?
A Yes, of course, these passages had to be skipped or changed.
Q Was the defendant often received by Goering for oral reports.
A No. Very, very seldom only.
Q At the time of the Fighter Staff did you know that in his place a certain Mr Sauer reported on the work of the Staff to Goering?
A Sauer was the actual head of the Fighter Staff and he took care of these things personally. As far as I know the yield Marshal did not assist--did not participate in these conferences.
Q Did the Field Marshal Milch have a close contact with party organizations?
A No, he did not have any contact with the party organizations. I paid his fees for him.
Q Is it correct that Milch addressed Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf only in order to help people who were being persecuted by the Gestapo?
A I know such cases where that happened.
Q Did you ever find out that Sauckel ever saw Milch regarding labor questions and did he have such a position to report on that directly to Milch?
A I never saw Sauckel in our place and I don't know that he had such a position.
Q Could Sauckel reach the defendant through some other channels other than through you?
A No, there was only one channel to the Field Marshal and that channel led through my room.
Q Is it correct that all of the persons who wanted to see Milch had to see you first?
A Yes.
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Q Do you know if Milch said to tho former Chief of the Laftwaffe Ruedel and Chief of the Lafthanse Feerster and Hippke-- if he trusted them all?
A Concerning this answer I can only give you my opinion about it.
Q Yes, please.
A I believe that he did not trust them.
Q When do you mean? Whom out of the three?
A He did not trust the latter.
Q For reasons of irreliability or personal reasons? Did you know that in the Office of Milch concerning the applications for concentration camp inmates went through his office?
A No, I only know that the Field Marshal applied for workers from the German troups and he tried to get these workers free--tried to have them released.
Q Was Milch in a position to send someone into a concentration camp.
A No, as far as I knew, no.
Q Do you know if he over issued orders concerning PW's or foreign labor and that these people ought to be hanged or killed or shot?
A. No, the Field Marshal did not have this power.
Q Do you know witness, that in February 1944 there was in escape of Russian prisoners, namely, two officers, by using a plane?
A Yes, I do. As far as this was a mechanic. This was said to be a mechanic who took off with somebody else.
Q What happened then? Did they succeed in excaping or what did happen?
AAs far as I know they had to make an emergency landing. They were re-captured.
Q Do you knew if the defendant did anything in connection? If he ordered anything?
A No.
Q At that time was he in Berlin?
A Yes, I believe he was but I can't tell you for certain.
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Q Isn't it correct that he learned about it?
A Yes, I remember. He was in his room--he was standing in his room when the news came.
Q Do you know if Milch concerning this matter had a talk with Hitler?
A No.
Q Would you have had to know that?
AAll of the discussions which the Field Marshall wanted to have with the gentleman had to go through my office.
DR BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, this answer is one of the most important answers in this complex. Why, I shall show the Tribunal later. It is of the greatest importance that Milch did not talk with the Fuehrer concerning this incident. Later on I shall prove that the order that these people be shot came from the Fuehrer.
Q Witness, do you think it possible that tho Defendant Milch declared during a session of Planning Board that he had these Russian prisoners shot or hanged? Or do you think that it is a mistake in the records?
MR DENNEY: If Your Honor please, we certainly let him go far afield. Now he is asking, 'Do you think it is possible that the Defendant could have said something?" There is nothing to show that this nan is anything but a civil servant who apparently is in an adjoining office. He is a faithful old retainer who was in some sort of a secretarial capacity. He was not a member of Central Planning. There is nothing to show he was ever there. I submit it is going too far to ask, "Do you think it is possible that the Defendant could have said' something"
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think it is a little late to draw the line?
MR DENNEY: I think we should draw it somewhere or we will be here all day.
THE PRESIDENT: This morning I asked the witness if he suspected that another man might have thought a third man was in the position to do something.
MR DENNEY: I am trying to be fair about this. This is the thing that impels me to say something at this time. I have boon listening to Dr. Bergold testify for about 45 minutes. Tho question before this last one was, "Could milch have seen Hitler except through you? The witness said, "No. He could not." That is so obviously ridiculous, I thought I better say something.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is ready to rule.
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to say -
THE PRESIDENT: I am about to rule with you, so you need not labor the point. In view of your emphasis on this particular point in the proceedings, and your insistence that is most important, we are not inclined to draw the line against this testimony at the moment.
We will reserve the right to determine how much you are proving, but we don't feel inclined to foreclose you from presenting this testimony which you say is most important. At this point, we will take a recess 885 a
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal 3 is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I have just heard that my Document Book No. 2 has turned up. I an very happy that that is so. I am beset with another difficulty which I should like to discuss with the court. If I understood the court marshal correctly, there will be some difficulties tomorrow and the day after. The defendants of the first trial, whom I have called for this trial in order to interrogate them regarding their affidavits, I ask the court to decide. The court marshal doubts whether we shall be permitted to bring these defendants down to this trial, if I understand him correctly. How is that to be done?
THE PRESIDENT: Apparently only by a miracle. This Tribunal will not presume to march into the other one and snatch some of their defendants away to be witnesses. I imagine some sort of an understanding will have to be reached with the Tribunal I so that these men can be used here as witnesses while the other Tribunal is in recess. How that can be done, I haven't the faintest idea. Judge Phillips has suggested that it might be possible that when testimony is being offered which does not affect the witness, the defendant in the other case, that he could be hurried down here to testify. I don't know whether this can be done or not. I'll have to confer with Judge Beals of Tribunal 1 to get his suggestion as to how it can be worked out.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor please, in the first trial, and I believe in this one upstairs, there have been days when defendants individually on one occasion - I can remember in this trial, too - have been absent for the purposes of preparing their defense, and perhaps if a suggestion could be made to that effect. I could work out something with Mr. McHaney so that he would agree to refrain for a certain period. It wouldn't be any more than one session, I wouldn't think, for each of the various witnesses, so that we can get them down and get this trial concluded.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you tell us, Dr. Bergold, which defendants you have planned to call?
DR. BERGOLD: Rudolf Brandt, Hans Romberg, Wolfram Sievers, Oskar Schroeder, Hermann Becker-Freyseng, Georg August Weltz, and Siegfried Ruff.
Mr. President, I believe that I shall need at the most one hour for each witness and I think it would be much less than that. I wish to ask only one, two, or three questions of each witness. Only the witness Ruff will take slightly more time.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you give me the names again?
DR. BERGOLD: Rudolf Brandt, Hans Romberg, Wolfram Sievers, Oskar Schroeder, Hermann Becker-Freyseng, Georg August Weltz, and Siegfried Ruff.
THE PRESIDENT: I will confer with Judge Beals at the end of the session and we will do the best we can.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. I continue with my interrogation of the witness BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, a misunderstanding arose in one of my last questions that I directed to you. I asked you whether it would have been impossible for Milch to speak by long distance by phone to the Fuehrer without doing it via you. The translation was "to see the Fuehrer" instead of to speak to him by telephone. That, of course, is ridiculous. But is it not true that you were speaking, at that time, of telephonic communication?
A. Yes.
Q. I return now to the last question I asked you. Do you hold that Milch's statement as made in the Central Planning, that he had Russians shot or hanged, correct; or do you hold it to be an exaggerated expression or an error in the minutes?
A. That could be an error in the minutes or simply exaggeration.
Q. You do not know that he ever gave such an order?
A. No.
Q. Did he have the power of command to do so?
A. No.
Q. Did he have any power of command over prisoners of war camps?
A. No. not at all.
Q. Did he ever give orders to the SS?
A. Never.
Q. Did he have any power of command to the police -- the ordinary policy.
A. No, not there either.
Q. Did you know that Milch, regarding the shooting of English air officers who fled from the camp Sagan, that he was upset and characterized it as a Mistake?
A. I knew that.
Q. Do you know who drew up the program for the technical meetings?
A. They were drawn up by the technical offices of the G.L.
Q. Who was in charge -- the chairman of the technical office?
A. That was General Vorhof or General Gawlitz.
Q. Were transfers from the Luftwaffe to the other offices frequent during the war and what position did Milch take in these cases?
A. I knew that there were excesses of one sort or another and that Milch had nothing to do with it.
Q. Did he use a particular expression in this case?
A. Milch said, "In general; we shouldn't keep such people as that."
Q. Is it true that Goering ordered that he would take special measures if he needed a total representation for his whole office?
A. The defendant never had such total representation from Goering.
Q. Tell me, from what date on did the defendant have to do with armament during the war?
A. After Udet's death.
Q. Is it true that Udet's death occurred roughly around 17 November 1941?
A. I am hot too sure of the year, but that is probably correct.
Q. And when did Milch stop his activity as G.L., Herr Ordnance Master General?
A. Unfortunately, I cannot tell you the year.
Q. Was it '44 or '45?
A. It could not have been '45; it must have been '44.
Q. What did Milch have to do with Four-Year Plan?
A. So far as I know, nothing.
Q. Was Sauckel and his offices subordinate to Milch?
A. No.
Q. Did Milch have anything to do with the recruitment or transportation or accommodations -- clothing and such things -- of foreign workers?
A. No.
A It could not have been '45; it must have been '44.
Q What did Milch have to do with Four-Year Plan?
A So far as I know, nothing.
Q Was Sauckel and his offices subordinate to Milch?
A No.
Q Did Milch have anything to do with tho recruitment or transportation or accommodations -- clothing and such things-of foreign workers?
A No.
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Q Could Milch give orders to the military officers or the civilian officers, in the occupied territories, that is?
A No.
Q What did Milch describe to you as the tasks of the Central Planning?
A The administration in the first order of raw materials.
Q Do you know what the manpower situation was in the aircraft industry? Was it sufficient or faulty?
A So far as I know, the manpower situation was insufficient.
Q Do you know that Milch made continuous efforts to keep his German workers ?
A Yes, he made efforts to get workers from the troops.
Q From the fighting troops?
A Yes.
Q Did he also make efforts to prevent inductions?
A That also.
Q Did you know or do you know whether or not Milch believed Sauckel's enormous statistical numbers?
A I heard that the Field Marshal did not believe those numbers.
Q Did he consider them too high or too low?
A I don't know that for sure, but at any rate the numbers were incorrect.
Q. Did Milch have punitive power in the Luftwaffe industry?
A. No.
Q. Over foreigners?
A. No.
Q. Over prisoners of war?
A. No.
Q. Over concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Foreign labor?
A. No.
Q. Do you know of the secret reports of Himmler to his SD offices about the treatment of foreign workers?
A. No, I did not read them.
Q. Do you know Rosenberg's reports regarding the situation in the Eastern territories?
A. I did not see them either.
Q. Did you see any reports or regulations regarding the treatment of foreign workers in Germany?
A. No, as far as I can recall.
Q. Did you work in close contact with Milch?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he express himself openly to you, on the whole?
A. I assume that he did.
Q. Did. you know that he made efforts that the foreign workers should be treated well?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you be more precise on this subject?
A. He spoke with Speer on this subject, as far as I know. His principle was that you should treat well workers who worked well.
Q. Did Milch make demands either of Speer or Sauckel that workers should be forced to come to Germany?
A. As far as I know, he did not.
Q. Would that in general have gone through your offices?
A. Yes, that would probably have had to go through me.
Q. Do you know whether Milch knew of the conditions in the recruitment and transportation of foreign workers?
A. Probably not.
Q. Tell me, what struggle did Milch carry on for an effective air armament and what did he call effective -- fighters or bombers?
A. Fighters.
Q. For that reason, did he have to struggle with anyone to achieve that, or were the higher offices in agreement on that?
A. No. Goering was not in agreement on that.
Q. Do you know whither Hitler was in agreement with him?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you know that the defendant Milch, after ho had taken the office of GL was very strict in his direction of this office?
A. Yes.
Q. Did this strictness Serve tow rd the enslavement of foreign workers or to achieve the increase of the effectiveness of the German offices?
A. The latter.
Q. Do you know whether Milch used foreign workers or prisoners of war in munitions factories?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Do you know whether the term "munition factory" is identical with the term "armament factory", or is the latter term more extensive?
A. The latter is more extensive.
Q. Do armament factories include also the iron producing industry?
A. I can not answer this question in the affirmative, but I would assume.
Q. Do you know that there was considerable discussion about loafers and considerable excitement about them?
A. Yes, they were discussed.
Q. Did one understand under this term foreigners or native Germans?
A. Only native Germans.
Q. Did the defendant undertake anything against the loafers ?
A. No, he was not in a position to do so.
Q. I believe I am almost finished. Tell me, who determined that concentration camp inmates were to be used in the aircraft industry?
A. I cannot say. I assume that it was Speer.
Q. Could Milch give orders to military offices, the CKW, OKH, the OKL?
A. No.
Q. Our late friend, Goering, declared in an affidavit that the claiming of labor in the armament industry was so arranged that Milch made the requests and gave them to Spoor; that is, the requirements in the Air Ministry. Do you know anything about those requests for workers?
A. They were, perhaps, compiled in the Technical Office and then sent to Speer.
Q. Did they go directly through the defendant's office?
A. No, they wont only through the technical office.
Q. Do you know that the defendant at the beginning of 1943 advised Hitler to stop the war because it was lost?
A. I had herd so.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, you went to work for the defendant in 1919?
A. Yes.
Q. And what were your duties with him?
A. Civilian aeronautics and the affairs of the German Lufthansa.
Q. Were you a civil servant?
A. I have boon a civil servant since 1896.
Q. Until when?
A. Until the end of the war.
