THE PRESIDENT: Will you have the witness repeat what position he held at the end of the war?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
Q Witness, what was your position at the end of the war?
A I was manager of Central Management. It concerned labor assignments and the distribution of labor in the Ministry of Armament.
Q Witness, you just said that you became a member of the Speer Ministry in 1944. What were your positions before that?
A From May, 1942, up until the end of 1943, I was with the Organization Todt in Berlin. From 1938 to 1942, I was working for the Economy District Administration Hossen in Frankfurt am Main as Trustee. From 1934 until the end of 1937 I was in Berlin with Reichtrustee of Labor. Before that I had been an Assessor.
Q Thank you. Witness, when and in what position did you have to do official business with the Defendant?
A I had some dealings with him on official business after 1944 when I became Chief of the Amtsgruppeneinsatz in the Ministry of the Armament. I saw him again after the Jaegerstab was formed, that is, after March, 1944.
Q In your position in the Ministry of Armament, did you have anything to do with the Central Planning Board?
A I had something to do with them insofar as the Chief of Staff of the Armament office was concerned. He was my chief. I had to write down the necessary figures concerning labor assignments when I accompanied him at certain sessions of the Central Planning Board as assistant.
Q What time was that? Approximately.
AAs far as I can remember the first session in which I participated was in February or March, 1944. I did not always participate in these sessions, only in a few of them when I accompanied the man I mentioned before.
Q Did the sessions of February and March, 1944, deal with labor assignments?
A. Yes.
Q. During these conferences, were they trying to clear the numbers or the figures which were announced by Sauckel?
A. In one of the conferences which I can remember, they wanted to make Sauckel a proposition concerning the distribution of labor which he wanted to provide. I remember that the Central Planning Board had a written proposition submitted to him. Sauckel said that he would acknowledge this proposal, but would take care of the distribution himself, personally.
Q. Did they, during these sessions, try to find out whether the numbers and figures Sauckel reported were correct? If he mentioned figures which were too high, did they speak concerning these matters in this conference?
A. I do not remember that day. But I know in various conferences, the question of reliability of the figures played a great part. There was always a difference between what Sauckel reported in the figures and what Speer reported.
Q. Did this apply to both figures which Sauckel mentioned as having already happened, or did it apply to these figures which were from which laborers were to come?
A. That applied particularly to the numbers of laborers who had already been brought. It was not possible to try to control the number of laborers wanted because it was only something that was being planned, nothing else.
Q. That is correct, but from previous experiences, weren't they in a position to find out that Sauckel's promises were not being kept?
A. At the time, they doubted that the figures which Sauckel reported could ever be brought up.
Q. It is known to you that Sauckel during one of these conferences declared that out of five million foreign workers, only 200,000 came to them voluntarily?
A. I cannot remember that.
Q. Do you think that such a statement that out of 5 million workers. only 200,000 came voluntarily, could have been made by Sauckel at one of these conferences?
A. According to my knowledge of the happenings, I do not believe that the figures could be correct.
remember the figure in this case. If the number had been mentioned in my presence, I am sure it would have stuck me. Sauckel constantly stressed the point that the laborers who came to Germany came legally. In other words, I would have noticed it if Sauckel would have mentioned such a low number for those who came voluntarily.
Q. Is it correct that in your position, as a member of the Speer Ministry, or in your capacity as a member of the Organization Todt, you very often participated in the staff meetings of Sauckel?
A. Every month Sauckel would call such a staff meeting where representatives of the most important labor assignment ministries took part. I almost always participated in those meetings.
Q. What other ministries apart from the Ministry of Armaments participated in those conferences?
A. The Air Aviation Ministry, the OKW, the Economy Ministry, the Agricultural Ministry and I do not think I can remember anything further.
Q. Was the Traffic Ministry there too?
A. I do not remember that.
Q. Did the Defendant Milch ever participate in those sessions?
A. No. Those were conferences where the experts of the ministries took part; not the leaders and not their representatives either.
Q. Who was the chief of the Air Aviation Ministry?
A. Goering.
Q. At this staff conferences, did Sauckel ever make any statements saying he brought the laborers voluntarily to the Reich?
A. I remember that Sauckel repeatedly said approximately the following:
"They say that I am forcing laborers to come to Germany. Once somebody said I went to foreign countries with a lasso and caught people and brought them over to Germany. They said I forced them to come to Germany."
Furthermore, he said, "I declare all those things are not true. The laborers are brought to Germany by me on the basis of contracts with other governments, as far as there are governments in those occupied territories; or on the orders of the local military commanders or other local German agencies."
He asked us to tell our superiors his opinion on that question.
Q. Did you ever talk about foreign laborers who came to Germany on a voluntary basis, I mean on the basis of recruitment?
A. Yes.
Q. Has he ever mentioned that those were small figures or large figures?
A. He said that the laborers who came to Germany should be recruited. The number of people who came on a voluntary basis decreased. The number became smaller and smaller. He said the recruitment of labor was ordered by the French Government itself according to age groups.
Q. Is it known to you that there was an agreement with the French government according to which for two laborers, one prisoner of war would be released to France.
A. Yes.
Q. Is it known to you that the French workers during their activity in Germany got leave once in a while?
A. Yes.
Q. A leave to France?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they ever return from their leave or did they just stay there?
A. A greater part of them came back from their leave; quite a number did not come back. Part of the laborers who went on leaves did not come back. Some of them came back.
Q. Was that the larger part that came back or the smaller part?
A. I did not hear any figures concerning that. As far as I know the greatest of them came back. According to the factory manager, the larger part always came back, but of course I have no exact figures.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I have been lenient with Dr. Bergold on this.
In this whole line of questioning he has been testifying. He can ask the witness "Was there an agreement with the French Government?" The witness can say "Yes," and then he can ask what the contents was. I submit that the Doctor is testifying and the witness is not.
THE PRESIDENT: Your objection is he -
MR. DENNEY: -- is leading the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: May I say something to this? There were several, agreements with the French government which could not be known by the witness. If I ask the question the way Mr. Denney suggests, I happen to know there were four or five agreements-
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is that you are putting the answers into the witness's mouth. When you ask the question you indicate to him the answer you expect. In American law that is termed a leading question and is objectionable. The Tribunal will dispose of the objection by warning you, Dr. Bergold, not to testify yourself, but to simply ask questions of the witness and let him give the answers.
Q The Plenipotentiary General for Labor Assignment, Sauckel, during the session of the first of March, 1944, said in France there was never a contract on a voluntary basis.
A. I do not know that.
Q. Is that statement made by Sauckel correct?
A. No. I do not think it is. It is not correct in respect to the other statements which he made. I never heard any other statements by him.
Q. Witness, then he joined the Jaegerstab. Do you know anything about the creation of the Jaegerstab?
A. Approximately on the first of March, I do not remember the exact date, I was asked by my Chief of Staff, to go to the Air Aviation Ministry where Milch and Mr. Sauer were present. He said the Air Armament was so badly damaged by the airraids, that there had to be a fighter program.
For that purpose a staff needed to be developed to hold daily conferences which would be necessary in order to increase the fighter production or at least bring it to the same level that it used to be. A number of gentlemen from the Air Aviation, as well as from the Armament Industry, were designated to take part or participate in these sessions, and to report to their offices what had taken place and put orders into effect.
As a representative of the Armament Ministry, I was chosen to represent labor assignment. Later on I heard that this Jaegerstab Fighter Staff - was under the management of Speer and Milch and that Sauer was the manager of the Jaegerstab. Later on there were conferences almost daily, first at the Air Ministry and later on at a barracks at the Tempelhof, near Berlin. They dealt, first of all, with the production of the fighters and with all the questions in connection with the fighters and also with labor assignment.
Q. Who directed these conferences?
A. At the beginning Milch participated almost regularly in those sessions and he was the one that actually led or presided over the conferences; formally, that is. Mr. Sauer was the speaker most of the time. Mr. Speer very seldom, according to my recollection perhaps three or four times, participated in those sessions, which in those days were transferred to the Armament Ministry.
Q. You just said that Milch at the beginning had the formal leadership. From what time on did that cease?
A. After the transfer into the Armament Ministry, or rather, into the Caserne at Tempelhof. I don't remember the date. Milch did not participate as regularly as he did before. At those conferences after the change of the fighter staff into the Armament staff, he only participated there once or never.
Q. Who was the chief or manager of the Fighter Staff?
A. I don't remember that exactly. It was either Speer or Sauer. I don't remember that.
Q. Who mostly led the conferences in practice?
A. Sauer.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, that translation came through as, "Who was the chief of the Fighter Staff", and Dr. Bergold used the word "Ruestungsstab". He was not talking about the Jaegerstab - these last three questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want a correction made on the record?
MR. DENNY: If Your Honor please.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. I was speaking of the Ruestungsstab, which replaced the Jaegerstab.
There is one more thing to be mentioned here. My colleague tells me that the word "Formally" was translated with "actually", which is not correct.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, was it known to you that before the creation of the Fighter Staff there existed certain differences between Milch and Sauer concerning the use of the contingents that were at their disposal?
A. No. Before the creation of the Fighter Staff - that is, in the months of January and February - I participated at the conferences concerning the production of the Air Ministry once or twice which were initiated by the Armament Ministry, the same conferences took place with the Navy Ministry, and I never heard of any differences which they had there.
Q. Witness, concerning the conferences of the staff, there were always minutes or records taken. Is that known to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Apart from those minutes, were any other minutes taken?
A. Yes, the verbatim record - I want to call it a "result record" was compiled and these records were sent to all of the offices which were interested in those conferences. Those verbatim records were taken down by stenographers during the session and according to my knowledge were sent only to Mr. Speer, and of course they remained with both Sauer and Milch. In other words, very few copies were made.
Q. Were these verbatim records ever controlled?
A. No, I don't think so. I don't believe that the large records were read or checked by someone else.
Q. Can one say then that the decisions of the Jaegerstab were contained in the result records?
A. Not only the decisions but also the more important deliberations that took place. However, when decisions were made, then they were in the records and the result records.
Q. During these conferences did it ever occur that the participants were not always present?
A. That happened very often because the sessions lasted for a long time and it happened many times that I, for instance, was called out and ordered to take care of my business, at least by telephone, and the members of the Fighter Staff did not always participate in the conferences, but later on - that is, from May on - they had representatives or deputies replace them.
Q. Did those sessions often result in single discussions?
A. That always happened once in a while, particularly when technical questions were discussed where very few experts could say something.
Q. I shall now proceed to the labor assignment within the Fighter Staff. How did the Jaegerstab deal with the questions of labor assignment?
A. As with all the production discussions of other programs, labor assignment questions were discussed at the sessions of the Fighter Staff. I had the task, concerning these labor assignment questions, to pass it through my office chief and so far the tasks which I had with the Jaegerstab overlapped my other duties and tasks with other organizations; in other words, if you want to know exactly or if you want to have a detailed description of what my tasks were which I had to do in general -
Q. I want to know what you had to do with the labor assignment of the Jaegerstab and what was your main task there; otherwise, we will be here about an hour or so.
A. Amongst other things, we had the task, on the basis of the reports of the various factories which came over the armament inspectorates to me, to write a proposition how those red slips were to be distributed on the individual production. In the Fighter Staff, I also had the task to distribute those red slips in such a way that the most important factories would get the necessary number of red slips. The red slips were orders to the labor assignment offices or agencies of Speer; in other words, to the armament inspectorates and to the armament commandos, and were given from Sauckel to his labor assignment agencies which were to provide preferentially the necessary amount of workers on the basis of those red slips. I furthermore had the task to take care of transfers of laborers who already were in the armament industry by giving respective orders to my agency and requesting Sauckel to carry out these things; since regarding the Fighter production, the question was, in the first place, concerning experts only transfers of this kind were carried out.
Skilled workers were no longer assigned to us by Sauckel in 1944. My main activity, therefore, concerned transfers from one of the industries to the other, 728 A and as regards the Fighter Staff, in transfers from the destroyed bomber factories or from other obsolete aircraft types to the Fighter factories which were working full.
I finally had the task to deal with the transfer of the armament workers to the Wehrmacht as soldiers and I had to take care of those. In 1944, through several actions, many laborers were withdrawn from the armament industry and transferred to the Army. That concerned particularly skilled workers. It was my task now, together with those responsible for the production to take care of the distribution in such a manner that the armament industry be hampered as little as possible in their production.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch tried to see to it that as a friend of the Fighter factories, no people had to go to the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes, from all the factories and particularly from the Fighter factories they tried to send as few laborers as possible to the Army. At the beginning of the early days of the Jaegerstab--in other words, in the month of March and April approximately, we tried to relieve the Fighter program concerning deliverying laborers to the Wehrmacht. Later on, this was very difficult to be carried out. I knew, however, that Milch tried his very best to give as few people as possible to the Wehrmacht from the Jaegerstab production, that is of the Jaegerstab factories.
Q. Witness, you just said that concerning the request for assignment of workers, you suggested to Sauckel during these meetings, there is a word by Sauer that says, "We take care of labor assignment." What is correct now? Did you just request them or did the Jaegerstab actually take care of the assignment?
A. The Fighter Staff was not able to give orders to offices which did not belong to the Speer Ministry or to the Aviation Ministry. The Jaegerstab, very often by Sauer and perhaps by Milch, gave directions. I can't remember, concerning Milch, whether exactly such words were used there. In reality, however, it was quite different. I appeared at Sauckel's and I was ordered to tell him about the creation of the Jaegerstab and its importance concerning the Fighter production, with the request that when laborers be distributed, the Fighter Staff production should be considered in the first place.
An order to 729A Sauckel was never given by me and I am sure that Sauckel would certainly not have followed my request, particularly as he always repeatedly stressed the point that he was independent and was responsible only to the leader of the Four-Year Plan and Hitler.
Q When Saur made such a statement, "We will take care of the labor assignment, "why do you think he said that?
A Well, once in a while such strong words were used. I never considered this statement very seriously and I didn't react to it because I knew exactly that nothing would happen afterwards, and nothing really happened. I was sure that in the presence of Sauckel, the labor assignment should have been taken care of by the Fighter Staff, but it was impossible to take care of that for one single production. Everyone who had something to do with the labor assignment could understand that.
Q Witness, you just spoke concerning boasting remarks. Is it known to you that Milch often used such strong exaggerated boasting remarks during these meetings?
A I don't remember single statements made by Milch, but I am sure that they occurred. What I am to say now is that it appeared to me that Milch very often, particularly concerning the industry and his own generals, wanted to boast in order to play the strong man, I believe, however, that these statements did not always achieve the desired impression he wished to create.
Q Do you mean to say that they were not taken seriously?
A Well, not quite seriously, anyway.
Q Were you present during the conference of the Fighter Staff where Milch had made a long speech to the Air Force engineers and the quartermaster chiefs?
A I was there partly. I remember now that the session which took place in the Air Aviation Ministry -- there were 100 people there at the time, and I have to remind you of the fact that I wasn't present during all those conferences.
Q However, can you remember that Milch used boasting expressions in that conference?
A No, I can't remember the speech itself.
Q Do you remember the way Milch spoke about someone with whom he had difficulties? (Dr. Bergold uses a German slang expression.)
INTERPRETER: The statement made by the defense counsel cannot be translated.
A I cannot remember this statement of his. I cannot remember Milch's statement.
Q Witness, the prosecution introduced a document during the trial where Goering gives Himmler a Fighter Group in exchange for the use of concentration camp inmates which were put at the disposal of the Air Force Armament. Do you know anything about that?
A What Fighter Group do you mean?
Q I mean a squadron -- a whole squadron was placed at the disposal of the SS and Goering wanted to have concentration camp inmates from the SS. Do you remember anything about that? It was on the 15th of February 1944.
A I can't remember that exactly. The way it was: Goering, that is the Luftwaffe, put a great number of soldiers at his disposal for immediate production. They got their leave. But if they ever exchanged laborers for concentration camp inmates, I do not know today anymore. It could be possible; however, I can't tell for sure.
Q Witness, is it known to you that, in the Fighter Staff, they were often transferred from the construction sector to the plenipotentiary for chemistry?
A No. In any case, I don't know that this was done to a considerable extent. It is possible that it also was said during my presence that the plenipotentiary for the chemical industry had too many workers in the construction sector and a few of them had to be transferred back to the chemical industry, lots of complaints were made. However, I can't remember anything concrete.
Q Witness, can you remember that Milch tried to be able to get certain engineers from Hitler who were working in Berchtesgaden?
A I believe I can remember that. The question of the engineers was discussed very often because in the construction sector this was a big bottle neck. I remember also that concerning the construction works in Berchtesgaden it was discussed in this connection and that one hoped to be able to get not only engineers but other skilled workers from the construction works carried out in Berchtesgaden for Hitler.
Q Witness, I shall now read to you from the Exhibit NOKW-337. That is Document Book No. 4 of the Prosecution Exhibit No. 75. I shall now read to you a statement made by Milch: "We spoke to the Fuehrer--" NOKW-337.
MR. DENNEY: Page 133 of Document Book No. 4.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q That is on Page 18 of the original document.
"We further appeal to the Fuehrer that we should get the 64 engineers who are in Berchtesgaden as the work there will probably soon be finished. He made a suggestion that we, like the SS, should also train engineers in a greater extent and mentioned the figure of 10,000 that would have to be trained one after another because they could not all be trained at once."
Q Witness, I shall now ask you to make some sort of statement concerning this statement made by Milch, and I would like to know if these engineers who were trained by the SS were concentration camp inmates and if the figure, 10,000 could be possible?
A I don't know what sort of engineers the SS trained. I take it that the engineers were concentration camp inmates because the SS, in their construction works, preferred to work with concentration camp inmate I also know the statement concerning those 10,000 engineers which was made by Milch, and I believe that the number of 10,000 is somewhat exaggerated because, according to my knowledge of the construction, only a very few miners are used in the construction program, but never such a large number.
Q Witness, is it known to you that the use of concentration camp inmates was carried out in small closed groups?
A Yes, as far as the SS used concentration camp inmates, outside of their own factories, this was obviously only carried out in larger groups of about 500 to 1,000.
Q Is it possible that during constructions, a few engineers or engineers were concentration camp inmates?
A When the rest of the workers were not concentration camp inmates, then, according to the regulations of the SS, I personally don't believe that there were 50 or 100 concentration camp inmates there also and I don't know of any such cases. I know that the SS always required that the concentration camp inmates be taken in large numbers and that they should be used in groups and billeted in groups.
Q In other words, is it a possibility that the SS also used people of their own as engineers, apart from those concentration camp inmates?
A I couldn't tell you because I did not know the situation with the SS. However, that is possible.
Q We're not talking about SS construction only, but construction in general.
A I didn't understand the question.
Q The question was: If the SS ever used engineers from their own ranks and if they trained them?
A No; I don't know anything about that either.
Q Do you know if the SS had a school for building workers.
A No, I don't know that either. I never heard of any building workers' school. The workers learned that during their experience.
DR. BERGOLD: I shall prove later on that there was a miners' school with the SS. I shall now proceed to NOKW-388. This is, in the English index, on the first page, 138, Your Honor.
Q They say that, from Italy, skilled workers came. The passage reads as follows: "Very few come from the West and they are slowly starting to come from Italy. There are comparatively few skilled workers among them." What kind of labor assignment was that from Italy?
A I don't understand your question. You want to know who carried it out?
Q Yes.
A The forces that Sauckel brought from Italy.
Q Yes; were these prisoners?
A No.
Q Were they civil workers?
A No; if you read the passage like that, I'm sure that they were civilians who were brought from Italy by Sauckel.
Q In the same document, a few pages further on, you say, from the page which I have just read now, this is page 52 of the original; "A letter is on the way from the Minister to Mr. Sauckel. During the first three months Sauckel has brought in between 300,000 and 400,000 people, but not even a miserable 66,000 "red tickets" could be dispatched." Milch continues: "I personally cannot get over it! Take the help away from the housewives! In the past year 800,000 domestic servants have been negotiated and we are fighting for 2,000 men!"
Witness, who was the Minister who wrote to Sauckel? It says here, "A letter from the Minister."
A. I don't remember that.
Q. Minister?
A. Probably Speer. I think this was Speer.
Q. If it says here, Sauckel brought in from 300,000 to 400,000 people during the first three months, do they mean that these were new recruitments?
A. No, those were statements made by Sauckel that he had brought in some people. Partly, I can remember that approximately. They were probably people who were found mostly abroad and partly in Germany as well; but not transfers, I don't think that they mean transfers from one factory to the other.
Q. Well where did they find peoplo in Germany -- I mean domestic servants in Germany?
A. Well, in Germany, various people were found -Laborers, that is, particularly the younger ages. Then the civilian factories were brought against, in 1944, the so-called war production, not the armament, that part of the production which was under the orders of Speer, which dealt with the production of civilian products were combed out. I remember that the combing out of 1944 brought about 200,000 laborers which were only assigned to the armament. From the fluctuation forces, there were several people who were combed out. Sometimes, in autumn, for instance, when the agriculture could not use all the people they had on hand, they were transferred to the armament, and others, sugar factories, for instance, delivered some workers to the armament too.
Q. Right now I'm only talking about the 200,000 people who were put at the disposal -- combed out, that is -were these people also considered as brought in Sauckel's term? 735