This, of course, shows that actually, during 1942, most recruitments were carried out on a voluntary basis. Only once was force employed, based on a secret letter, from the Plenipotentiary for Labor, a letter, of course, which was carefully hidden from any other agencies.
Now I turn to Exhibit 21-A, which is Document No. 3721-PS, dated September the 22nd, 1945. It is an interrogation of Sauckel's and it is on page 180 of the English Document Book. The prosecution has attached a special copy of this interrogation because it had not been very legible at the beginning. From this interrogation I shall read from page 4 of the German copy a question after the very long paragraph dealing with central planning. It comes along after central planning, about the middle of the document and there, the question is "Q. Except for Speer, they would give the requirements in general for the broad field, but in Spoor's work you would got them allocated by industry and so on.
Is that right?
"A. The others I only got whatever was left because Speer told me once in the presence of the Fuehrer that I am here to work for Speer and that mainly I am his man. He mentioned it very often and all the countries are not important. It was very unnatural that process of doing these things. These smaller places, instead of ordering their workers from the next higher echelons, gave their orders to the very highest to Speer who in turn gave it down to the lower ones to me; and this was the reason for the Rotzettel system which had to be fulfilled by mo without question. In practice it turned out to be that if a factory actually didn't need any workers but Speer demanded them for that factory I had to supply these workers without being able to discuss or to tell him that it would be a waste of manpower; I just had to do it because Speer had complete domination."
I shall prove through Speer that this testimony of Sauckel's is untrue.
620-a I now turn to Exhibit 42, Document 2520-PS.
That has also been added to the Document Book afterwards. It is now page 221. It is a statement from Dr. Wilhelm Jager. And I will just read a few introductory paragraphs, it is dated October 15, 1945, and it is in addition to the document.
"I, Dr. Wilhelm Jager, am a general practitioner in Essen, Germany, and its surroundings. I was born in Germany on 2 December 1888, and now live at Kottwig, Segenholz 6, Germany.
I make the following statement of my own free will. I have not been threatened in any way and I have not been promised any sort of reward.
On the 1st of October 1942, I became Senior Camp Doctor in KRUPP's workers' Camps, and was generally charged with the medical supervision of all KRUPP's workers' camps in Essen. In the course of my duties it was my responsibility to report upon the sanitary and health conditions of the workers' camps to my superior in the KRUPP works."
Only this morning, Mr. President, I directed the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that Milch in connection with his work did not have anything to do with Armament, and this document also proves it. I hope, Mr. President, you will also again take this document back a minute.
I now pass on to Document Book 2 PS. I shall read from Exhibit No. 45, Document No. 1919 PS, on page 14 of the English Document Book: "Speech of the ReichsfuehrerSS"; the SS group; Milch knew nothing of this; it was not conveyed to him and therefore he couldn't have known, no matter how secret it was. I referred to this, it was on page 18 of the German Document Book, where it is on page 64 of the original; there you will find the following passage, which Himmler stated was the plan with reference to the Clearing out of the Jews; and it is to be found on Page 17 of the English Document Book.
"With reference to the Clearing out of the Jews, I also want to talk to you, quite frankly, on a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on June 30th, 1934 to do the duty we were bidden DR, BERGOLD:
And this is to be found on page 14 of the original. " - and stand comrades who had lapsed up against the wall and shoot them so we have 621 a never spoken about it and will never speak of it.
It was that tact which is a matter of course and which I am glad to say is inherent in us, that made us never discuss it among ourselves, never speak of it. It appalled everyone, and yet everyone was certain that he would do it the next time if such orders are issued and if it is necessary."
So, you see, Mr. President, they didn't speak about this fact in SS circles, not even among themselves. But this is the first time that Himmler actually mentioned it, so, at the top, was secrecy.
Now, I come to Exhibit No. 8, Document No. 1510 PS. It is the Decree for the creation of the Central Planning. It is on page 32 of tho English Document Book. It is stated in what is called tho English Document Book as the "Decree for Central Planning." This is an error. It is not that. It is merely a Decree from the Reich Minister for Armament and Ear Production, regarding war economy and roads - I quote from it:
"The Reich Minister for Armament and War Production. Plenipotentiary General for Armament tasks within the Four Year Plan:
Decree of October 29, 1943, concerning the dividing of tasks in the Ear Economy.
The fuehrer has given me tho opportunity to bring into unified form tho entire war production of war Economy. This is based on Paragraph 7 of the Decree of September 2, 1943, about Concentration of tho War Economy in conjunction with tho Decree of tho Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich and Commissioner for tho Four Year Plan concerning Central Planning of April 22, 1942 (VP. 6707 6707) complemented by Decree of September 4, 1943 (VP 1129/1). Pursuant to these decrees, I am competent and responsible as Reich Minister for Armament and War Production for the supervision, direction and accomplishment of the production of the trade economy of war.
The aim of all measures can only be the further increase of armaments...
Accordingly, I decree the following also as Plenipotentiary General for Armament Tasks with the Four Year Plan, for the different offices engaged in war economical tasks."
622 a
MR. BERGOLD: We have now the contemplation of a war economy. The simplicity of general orders is also introduced. And the introduction of new agencies wherever it is necessary. The next paragraph is very important:
"I. The dividing of tasks in the Reich Ministry for Armament and War Production. The expansion of the sphere of tasks necessitates a re-organization and partly new organization of the Reich Ministry For Armament and War Production I therefore order in my capacity as The Reich Minister Plenipententiary for the different offices engaged in war economical tasks, be divided as follows:
"The Tasks of the Reich Ministry for Armament and War Production will be divided in the future into three large groups, namely --"
MR. BERGOLD: There follows something which I shall deal with very briefly, the list of agencies employed:
"1. tasks of coordination 2. tasks of production 3. cross section tasks."
And then follows the offices specified for the following tasks. This is on page 33 of the English Document Book at the bottom:
"Individually the offices specified below have the following tasks:
a) The Office for Planning of the Plenipotentiary General for Armament under president KEHRL has, according to Decree of September 16, 1943 ZA Org. POOO/2-143, to take care of the tasks mentioned under number II, within the sphere of the Reich Minister for Armament and War Production.
b) The Office for Armament under Major General DR. WARGER- securing of the personal and material readiness in the production of armament and war materials, especially in the spheres employment of labor questions of transport and traffic
c) The Technical Office under Hauptdienstleiter SAUER patent matters special projects
d) And finally, the Office for Armament Supply under State Councillor
DR. SCHIEBER: Control of orders for iron and steel Supervision of electrical engineers."
DR. BERGOLD: And then there is a general department for Finance and Economy; and finally , f) the Central Department for Culture.
Then we came to Roman numeral II, which I have referred to in connection with the planning office, the tasks of the principal committees and principal cartels, as well as economy and trade groups, all of which were directly under Speer; and among others they had the following tasks on this statement.
BY THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess for a short time.
(A recess was taken until 1530, 3 Feb 1947)
DR. BERGOLD (Defense Counsel for Erhard Milch): Your Honors, first of all before I continue I should like to bring up a question. It concerns the interrogation of the witness Speer who I have asked for. As a consequence of a misunderstanding between me and Major Teich, I understood that I had the choice either of calling Speer as a witness or of receiving from him an interrogatory. I then said that I should like to call him as a witness; this was on Friday, in the presence of one of the Judges. I believed this was a preparatory discussion. However, I was just informed by the Marshal of the Court that I had not construed it correctly, Speer could not, at least at the moment, appear in this Court as a witness because the Central Commission has not given its approval.
On the assumption that this is now the last word, I must have the opportunity to consult with Speer at some length. On Friday I received some information from him. If outside the Court I must speak with him, then I must have a whole day at my disposal in which to do so, and consequently must ask the Tribunal to explain how Speer's testimony is to be submitted as evidence before this Tribunal. I am not entirely clear on this point yet, whether it is probably true that an interrogatory in the presence of one of the Judges is not sufficient, or whether there must be an affidavit from him probably which then is to be read in the Court. At least I cannot construe it, so I would be obliged if the Tribunal would give me its opinion on the subject.
BY THE PRESIDENT: The witness, Speer, is in the exclusive control of the allied Control Council, and this Court is without authority to produce him in Court as a witness without consent of the Allied Control authority.
The authority did, however, consent that he be subjected to interrogatories, and that, I believe, has been done, has it not?
625a
DR. BERGOLD: No. I believe that the discussion I had with him was only a preparatory discussion, according to Major Teich who spoke to no in English; I misunderstood what ho said. Consequently, I must have the chance to consult Speer in detail. On Friday there were many questions that I really wanted to put to him, but did not have the opportunity to do so.
BY THE PRESIDENT: If evidence is to be produced at all, it will have to be done by interrogatories which will be transcribed and made a part of the document in this case.
The fact that one of the members of the Court was present when the previous interrogatory was being put to him does not mean that his testimony was taken by the Court. The allied Control Council requested that a representative of this Court be present at the time the interrogatories were put to him, and Judge Musmanno volunteered to represent the Tribunal in that respect, but that did not constitute the taking of testimony before the Court be obviously.
DR. BERGOLD: I quite understand that; in other words, I must submit an affidavit of this interrogation.
BY THE PRESIDENT: Well, whatever you wish to submit must be in some other way than by calling the witness personally as a witness.
DR. BERGOLD: In that case, I must ask the Tribunal to give me a day at my disposal during which I can really interrogate Speer in the presence of one of the Judges, and I must ask the Court that court reporters be present, because my secretary is not capable of taking down an interrogation correctly; I have tried that and it was not successful. There were so many errors in her report that I could do nothing with it.
I should then suggest, Your Honors, that if Major Teich is agreeable to this proposal, and the court is also, that that tomorrow, the witness, Spoor, in the presence of court reporters, should be interrogated; and that the record of this interrogation I shall then submit before the Tribunal. Is that agreeable to the Tribunal?
626 a Vouty No. 2
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to be heard, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: Just this, Your Honor, that I understand that the Court has ruled that when Dr. Bergold interrogates any of the present prisoners who were defendants in the ease before the International Military Tribunal a member of the Court will be present and assume at least from the three interrogations that have already been held, that the prosecution will be allowed to be represented. At thou time that Speer was interrogated I didn't know about it until very shortly before it happened and not knowing what the subject of the interrogation was going to be I was unable to prepare any cross interrogatories. And, in view of what Dr. Bergold tells me about his German transcript not being a very accurate, I don't know just what sort of record we will have from that. In the case of the two which were held on Saturday of the witnesses Neurath and Raeder, I believe that I was able to cover everything there that was necessary. However, there again we didn't have a court reporter to take it down although we did have the interpreter from the regular staff of Court interpreters. I would suggest that at any future interrogations that we have with these people that both German and English court reporters be assigned as well as interpreters so that all that will be necessary when we come to present the results of the interrogation to the Court, just bring the transcript up and read it into the record providing that is agreeable with Your Honors and Dr. Bergold.
THE PRESIDENT: The Allied Control Council merely requires that a representative of the Tribunal be present. It doesn't say that all of the judges must be present so, perhaps, that representative we could have. I think this ought to be handled just as you would be handling a deposition, questions and answers taken down verbatim and read to the Court in lieu of the testimony of the witness.
Did you have much opportunity to cross examine, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: With the witness Speer, no, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Apparently the direct examination of Dr. Bergold is not as complete as he questions here
DR. BERGOLD: Because as I said, I thought it was merely a preparatory investigation or interrogation.
327 a
THE PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps with the new idea in mind it would be better to start again.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And this time with competent reporters and translators and adequate cross examination producing a depostion or interrogation for the prosecution and the defense. Could that be done at all?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, we will have to suspend if we did it tomorrow. Of course, Dr. Bergold knows best. If he wants to do it tomorrow I have no objection. I would appreciate it if I could get his questions at least some time in advance because its going to be easier.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it to be determined by submitting specific interrogations and cross examination or is it going to take the nature of an examination as if the witness were on the stand?
MR. DENNEY: We can do it which ever way Your Honor wishes.
THE PRESIDENT: The latter plan is the most expeditious.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, it certainly is.
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to suggest that it is done in the form as if it were the hearing of a witness because if I have to write out all of the questions I would use more time. I again request more time. Therefore, I would like to suggest that we hear him tomorrow as if he were a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The other members of the Tribunal agree that the best way to get this testimony is to examine this witness in the same manner as if he were on the witness stand by direct examination and cross examination then if you have forgotten some interrogation why -- I mean, if you have forgotten to put it down on paper you can still cover it. Judge Mussmano volunteered to represent the Tribunal at any time tomorrow. When will you do it?
DR. BERGOLD: As soon as possible. Anytime is convenient to me after nine o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: How about you, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: I am sorry. I didn't hear what you said.
THE PRESIDENT: At what hour. What hour would be convenient for you to attend the questioning?
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Bergold agrees that nine thirty will be all right if that's convenient with the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well then the Court will not convene tomorrow but its business will go on as usual in taking this testimony. I presume it will take less time to do it this way than if the witness were here in Court. Now, what about the other witnesses who have been interrogated.
DR. BERGOLD: Raedor and Neurath perhaps they can be heard or interrogated later. After Speer I should like to continue with my other witnesses and Neurath can be interrogated later should it even be necessary. I can perhaps renounce them as witnesses. I do not know yet for sure.
THE PRESIDENT: We will leave that question to be determined later.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am suggesting in the interests of saving time that you night indicate to Mr. Denney the general subjects you intend to cover. Then he will be prepared with any documents which he might want to have in cross examination.
DR. BERGOLD: I can inform him, yes. I wish to interrogate Speer about the Central Planning, about the Fighter Staff, and about the general position that Milch occupied within the German war machine.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That doesn't leave much out.
DR. BERGOLD: That it is, to be sure, and I think it will take quite a while, too.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us have it understood, Dr. Bergold, that no one will be present at this taking of testimony except those who are necessary; yourself, Mr. Denny -
DR. BERGOLD: I shall be there alone on the condition that German reporters are present so that I do not need to bring my own secretary.
THE PRESIDENT: A German reporter and an American reporter and an interpreter, yourself, Mr. Denny, and Judge Musmanno.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well, May I ask in which room this will take place tomorrow?
THE MARSHAL: I will let you know.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: He will let us know the room number.
DR. BERGOLD: I may then continue with my presentation?
THE PRESIDENT: One more question. Do you expect that examination to take longer than the morning? That is, will you finish it by noon?
DR. BERGOLD: No, I believe I shall also need the afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. BERGOLD: Of course I do not know how many questions are going to be asked in the cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it will take some time to transcribe it also and to get it ready to present to the Tribunal. All right.
DR. BERGOLD: May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Please.
DR. BERGOLD: I stopped with Exhibit 58, Document 1510 PS.
"II, the tasks of the Principal Committees." I continue now in the reading from II, 12b. I read from No. 13, Section a, No. IV. That proves that the matter of assigning workers went through the main department or the principal committees. I read then the part before the concluding paragraph V. It is, I believe, the English page 38, the paragraph just before the heading "Final Remarks".
"The District Labor Offices and the offices subordinated to them have the following tasks:
"They accomplish the entire employment of labor in the armament economy. In these cases it is the duty of the District Labor Offices to fill manpower requisitions according to demands of the bottlenecks as well as the recruiting of aliens and manage their employment as well as the employment of prisoners of war.
"They guide the rising generation of their trade and work in the field of relief, such as separation compensations for people drafted into service, special relief, etc.
"In the case of objections from plants against measures of Labor Offices they have to call in the competent supervisory office. In a case in which uniformity of opinion cannot be achieved, the Armament Commissions decide finally." This, too, was, you see, a function of Speer's ministry.
I turn now to Document Book 2b, Exhibit No. 2b, Exhibit No. 61, Document No. NOKW 247, page 99. I am afraid that is Volume 3-C, page 99. It is a long interrogation of the late defendant Goering. Goering here answers a question who would provide information. It begins "No, Funk could give more precise information on the situation."
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honors, the document begins on page 44, which is the very first document in Book 2-B. In Dr. Bergold's index the document was falsely numbered and he is to read in the middle of this rather long interrogation.
DR. BERGOLD: I will ask the Tribunal -- I have the entire document but the cart I wish to read is not in the English translation.
THE PRESIDENT: You nay read it now.
DR. BERGOLD: With your permission I shall read it now and submit it to you later.
Goering is here discussing the fact that Speer was at his office and wanted to be Commissioner for Armament Tasks. I read:
"A short time thereafter Speer came to me again and suggested a Central Planning Committee, because he said he would have to coordinate matters with Economy Group 3, and so on, and since I myself wanted him to do this, because that was the correct thing to do, and because I had too much already to do with the air force, I suggested that he worked very well with Milch and for that reason he should call upon Milch for this, and not so much as my representative as Reich Air Minister, but because of his competence, and he should take care of this field of transportation and the other matters."
Then I read on the next page something again which I presume I shall have to bring later to the Tribunal -- a short section.
Goering says:
"In the Four Year Plan I limited myself to making my general plenipotentiary powers available. I never received any reports on the central planning, because that was not necessary at all. That was Speer's affair."
And then one final section which I shall also submit to the Tribunal later. That is question No. 99.
"Q. That is not my question. My question was solely who was commissioned in the Reich Luft Ministry to coordinate and prepare the manpower in the various subterranean sectors.
"A. An underground factory was built, the so-called Talar(?) Work. That is the only one that I visited. No prisoners worked there. Prisoners of war, that is, concentration camp prisoners. Prisoners of war worked there and German workers. The other factories were not for the airforce, but for the ball-bearing works, and so forth.
"Then a program was initiated under the direction, to be sure, of Himmler and subordinate to him an engineer named Kammler, an SS General of the Waffen SS and Gruppenfuehrer. He was to expand the five or six plants that were planned for, and for these, among others also, concentration camp prisoners were to be used.
"The working forces in general were made up of all sorts of elements, free workers, and prisoners. These plants which were intended, however, did not get past the planning stage, for then tunnels in Stuttgart and near Partenkirchen were taken. This matter was, in other words, Hammier's affair which he had received directly from the Fuehrer via Himmler. For the others Speer was commissioned, in which cases Milch stated the space that we needed. But I recall having sent reports on these instructions. So far as the cement works were concerned, the engineer in charge of the building wa.s Saur. That, in other words, was taken care of in Speer's Ministry. It was in part the Deputy Dorsch, and to the extent that it was a matter of providing the space necessary, it was Saur. That is to say, it was taken care of in Speer's Ministry. That is, all armament matters were coordinated, for to be sure the Reich Air Ministry had a part in it to the extent that we had to announce what we needed."