DR. FLEMMING: I submit to the court first of all the Mrugowsky Marriage Certificate, and the Baptismal Certificates of his childres-Document 46, page 202 of the Document Book. I submit it as Mrugowsky Document 51. The Baptismal Certificates of his two children are Document 47, pages 203 and 204. I put them in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit 52. I submit, further, Document Mrugowsky 49 -- an affidavit by Dr. Wilhelm Karl Grotepass, on page 205 of the Document Book. This is Mrugowsky Document 53. From this affidavit of Grotepass I read a few passages. First of all he says how he came to the Hygiene Institute, and then says: "In my opinion Mrugowsky was, though not bound to the church, a deeply religious person with a high ethical conception of his medical profession, a fact very frequently observed by me during lengthy conversations with him. The Institute, because of its many female employees, had an almost entirely civilian setup. Mrugowsky insisted very strictly on just one thing, namely, that work had to be performed conscientiously and diligently. Over and over again Mrugowsky would spur us on to a critical review of our own work.
"Since for many months 20 concentration camp prisoners were at work in our establishment repairing bomb damages, I feel that I really can give an opinion on the treatment of the prisoners by Mrugowsky. The prisoners enjoyed working in the Institute, and it was for them a special punishment when, by order of the camp management, they could for several days not work for us. Mrugowsky, for example, often praised the work and character of the prisoner Wessel who came from Dortmund. Wessel in turn frequently praised Mrugowsky for his good treatment. Mrugowsky tried to have Wessel employed as caretaker in the Institute. He once talked with me about it, that it was too bad that in spite of all his efforts he could not get a release from the concentration camp for this man. Since at first the prisoners had only trenches available for a shelter during the many air raids, Mrugowsky ordered that at the very first warning of an attack the prisoners were to be marched to a bomb-proof bunker which was within a walking distance of about 15 minutes.
I have frequently observed how Mrugowsky saw to it that the prisoners got started early enough.
"Then leaving Berlin at the end of April 1945 we stopped for some time at a place called Wittstock. After two days several columns of prisoners marched through Wittstock. As soon as Mrugowsky noticed that, some prisoners from our Institute were in the column he spontaneously called out, 'These are our people.
We must absolutely give these fellows something to eat. He saw to it at once that food and drink was brought on and also gave the men a good portion along for the march after he had inquired in detail about their well being. From a discussion with Dr. Hansdieter Ellenbeck, Stubaf. at that time, I know -- for example -- that Mrugowsky had proposed to put vitamin preparations at the disposal of the prisoners at Buchenwald among whom, for unknown reasons, sporadic oedema appeared in spite of all efforts.
"In closing I should like to remark that, from discussions at the Berlin Institute, for example, I know that Mrugowsky refused to have concentration camp inmates used for vaccinations with typhoid fever, para-typhus and dysentary serums for the determination of the occurring titro, because he maintained the standpoint that such series of experiments had better be carried out on young people in military training camps." Signed, Grotepass.
Now, I submit an affidavit by Dr. Jung, Mrugowsky Document 50, page 208 of the Document Book, which will be Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 54. I bring this to the attention of the Tribunal, and should only like to read one paragraph from page 209: "In April 1945 the prisoners from the Sachsenhausen camp were transported to Schwerin. At that time we were about 10,000 men." -- I beg your pardon -- Document No. 50 is Wessel's affidavit. Exhibit 54, page 208, is Wessel's affidavit. And from this I should like to read the following -- on page 28, the next to the last paragraph: "The food we received from the camp was very bad and entirely insufficient and, therefore, I approached Mrugowsky several times and asked him for additional food for the prisoners. Upon his instigation we then received at noon an additional warm meal from the kitchen of the Hygiene Institute. About 15 to 22 prisoners were working there.
"It was a daily occurrence that prisoners were beaten by the SS guards, and I asked Mrugowsky, therefore, to put an end to this state of affairs, so unworthy of human beings. Mrugowsky thereupon forbade the continuance of such beatings in the work commando.
Only when Mrugowsky was not present did it still happen that SS guards beat prisoners.
"Mrugowsky was always human and friendly towards us prisoners. Whenever we greeted by taking off our hats, he always acknowledged it and frequently exchanged a few words with me.
"In April 1945 the prisoners from the Sachsenhausen camp were transported to Schwerin. At that time we were about 10,000 men. While resting on the way in the brick-yard at Wittstock, Mrugowsky came out and called for me. He inquired about the prisoners of the former work commando and had then all called together. He distributed cigarettes, bread and pumpkin among us. We were very happy about this because we were terribly hungry.
"There were also foreigners in the commando, especially two or three Russians and they, too, spoke favorably of Mrugowsky. He was one of the very few who always was correct and humane towards us prisoners."
I submit further the affidavit by Dr. Seeker, Mrugowsky 53, on page 210.
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, it seems to me that in accordance with the rulings of the Tribunal during the course of the second day of the examination of this defendant, that we could dispense with reading these character affidavits now and proceed with the examination of the witness, and complete the examination of the witness in a reasonable time -- This witness has been on the stand now for nearly three days, and these affidavits seem to me unrelated to the testimony of the witness, and can be put in at a later time.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, my interrogation is almost completed. The reason it has been so long is that despite four requests the prosecution has not yet said what charges against individual defendants it withdraws, nor has it stated which of the various counts which are not in the indictment are charged against the individual -
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
DR. FLEMMING: I put in now the affidavit Kenber and 3 associates, Mrugowsky 57.
It is to be found on page 196 of the Document Book, I might remark that I received this without having asked for it.
THE PRESIDENT: What number did you assign to Document -- is that 53? -- the affidavit of Seeker?
DR. FLEMMING: 54 was the last one, which is Document 50. You mean Wessel's affidavit, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. FLEMMING: Exhibit 54.
THE PRESIDENT: According to the notes I have the affidavit of Wessel is No. 54. What number did you assign. Is that the number?
DR. FLEMMING: That is correct, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What number did you assign to the next offer you made, Seeker? S-E-E-K-E-R-?
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, sir, Seeker. It precedes the next number 55, Exhibit No. 55, Document No. 53; on page 210, from or by Seeker. This affidavit is simply brought to the Tribunal's attention. Then as the next document we have the affidavit by Kemper, Mrugowsky's No. 57; Exhibit No. 56. This is an affidavit by various members of the Second Medical Company of the SS Supply troops, which had worked under Mrugowsky until August 1940. I shall read only the last page, the 2nd Ambulance Company.
MR. HARDY: May I ask for the official number of this document? I ask the defense counsel instead of being the signature of one, what is this?
DR. FLEMMING: It is signed in Mogsburg from the camp leader.
MR. HARDY: No objection to it.
DR. FLEMMING: I read from page 200 - rather pages 199 and 200:
"From Oct. 1939 until August 1940 we have been members of the 2nd Ambulance Company of the SS Verfuegungstruppe, the commander of the company being the then Stubaf. Dr. Dr. Mrugowsky. Our company has been in charge of a great number of field dressing stations during the campaign in France, Belgium and Holland. We had to render medical treatment to wounded German men as well as to English and French soldiers. Upon the order of Dr. Mrugowsky, all these men were taken care of indiscriminatingly as to their respective nationality. We should emphasize that Dr. Mrugowsky in performing his duties as physician did not only comply with and live up to the various provisions and orders of the International Red Gross about all of which we had received instructions, but that he went much farther in the performance of his duties in manner most worthy of admiration without taking heed for his own health or safety.
Upon his order, all the wounded men that were delivered to our dressing station in a motley army of our own and of enemy soldiers were scrupulously classified for treatment exclusively according to the severity of each case.
While we had become familiar with his Unselfishness and his human attitude as a comrade from the very first day of the organization of the company we had additionally ample opportunity during the campaign in the West to learn of his character as a physician when he expected the physicians and the other medical personnel under his command to do their duty to the point of self-sacrifice to save the lives of the wounded. Evidence of his own non-sparing efforts may be gathered from the fact that he declined to be kept - posted by other on the situation in the firing-line out that he used to organize persennally and without regard to his own safety the expeditions removal from the firing-line of the severally and most severally wounded men, not in the least way discriminating thereby between friend and enemy, an attitude which was evidenced by the kind of those delivered to the station and by which he lived up to his standards as a physician where from he never deviated: that any patient is a patient. While in a therapeutics his manners towards the wounded were representative of the highest standards the moving care of Dr. Mrugowsky in matters of food, clean linen and tobacco-rendered undiscriminatingly to all that happened to be entrusted to him - calls for further attention.
The undersigners as motor-drivers and sanitary personnel belonged to the above mentioned unit":
The following four signatures of and these men were internees of this camp who sent in this affidavit unsolicited.
DR. FLEMMING: I now submit Dr. Jung's affidavit as Mrugowsky's No. 50, found on page 213, Your Honor. That is as Mrugowsky's No. 52 put into evidence as Mrugowsky's No. 57, page 213, Document No. 52, Exhibit No. 57, which I brought to the Tribunal's attention.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. What was your financial status?
A. I was paid as a soldier, or as an official doctor.
Q. Did you draw any material benefit from your membership in the SS, or Party?
A. No, never.
Q. Now I come to the point one, namely, conspiracy. Please tell who of the other co-defendants you knew at all closely?
A. Of all the defendants I know only three. That is, Dr. Gensken, my chief collaborator for many years, and of course, whom I knew very well. Otherwise, Dr. Poppendick I knew from many conversations, because we had officially known each other. Finally, another, Professor Rose, because he also is a Hygienist, as I am, and if there were any technical discussions that referred to the use of soldiers on the front, we saw each other several times. Now I have had slight acquaintance with nine others of the defendants. Professor Handloser was to whom I twice spoke, and whom I saw several times when he had the chairmanship of the conference. Secondly, Karl Brandt with whom I had one discussion and when this drinking-water committee was founded, and that was the only time I ever saw him. Third, Professor Rostock, who was the deacon of our medical faculty in Berlin, 15. I saw him when I requested to be appointed as a professor. Schroeder I know only by sight. Professor Gebhardt, although he is an officer of the SS membership, I spoke with only twice, once in the field, 1941, I believe, and once previously in a corridor at one of the consulting conferences. Then I had two conversations with Blome, once in his office, and once at mine on a matter of information when he was interested in my institute, that was the reason ho was there, and then I knew Sievers with whom I had two discussions, once in my office, and once at his office, which you can find out from his files. Further I had nothing to do with him. Rudolph Brandt I saw as long as it takes to shake handstand finally, Dr. Hoven, just before he was interred.
The others in the dock I saw for the first time in Nurmberg, here.
Q. What did you talk about to Professor Rose?
A. Individual questions of troop hygiene.
Q. This is my last question now. On the report of Mrugowsky's No. 10, Exhibit No. 20, the report on the first typhus experiment series. This report is that of request of Dr. Conti to Grawitz, chief of the hygienic institute of the SS, to the Robert Koch Institute, of the typhus research office of the OKH in Cracow and the Behring Works. This is the series in which the vaccine was tested in internees in Buchenwald. Is that not true that these officials were acting in a common plan to carry out this typhus experiment?
A. In my opinion this document proves exactly opposite. Of those to whom this report was sent, and had part in this matter, I had not known anything of the intention to carrying out these experiments on human beings, and, then Grawitz order would have made no sense, and then to me to recast the Ding report in the way that you have it. Also referring to files 29 December 1941, there was one discussion there on the epidemiological testing of the various typhus vaccine that can be seen from Carl Doenitz file case. Grawitz tried to prevent this through this report with those who received it subsequently to find out in detail how these experiments were carried out. I don't think there could be a clearer reputation of conspiracy than provided by this report.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, that concludes the direct examination of the defendant Mrugowsky.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess.
(A recess was taken to 1330 hours)
(The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours 31 March 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has only just now received the statements by counsel for the defendant Sievers concerning the two witnesses which were referred to by counsel this morning. The Tribunal will examine this statement and announce it's ruling as soon as possible.
The Tribunal now desires to announce that the Tribunal will recess at 3:30 o'clock Thursday afternoon of this week until 9:30 o'clock Tuesday morning following.
The Tribunal will be in recess from Thursday evening until Tuesday morning.
DR. FLEMING: (For the defendant Mrugowsky): Mr President, I have no further questions to put to the defendant.
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, in as much as the witness Horn is outside now and the representative of the Czecho Slovakian delegation informs me that the witness desires to return to Czecho Slovakia tomorrow, it might be advisable to call the witness Horn now before the cross examination of Mrugowsky by defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: That was my intention. Defendant Mrugowsky is excused from the stand and will resume his place and the Marshal will summon the witness Horn on behalf of the defendant Hoven.
JUDGE SEBRING: You will hold up your right hand and be sworn. Repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
The witness repeats the oath as follows:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will add nothing.
JUDGE SEBRING: Repeat this last part of the oath again: That I will speak the pure truth and with withhold and add nothing.
WITNESS: I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.
DR. GAWLIK (For the defendant Hoven) DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, will you please tell the Tribunal your name?
A. My name is Videslaw Horn.
Q. You are a doctor of medicine, is this true?
A. Yes, I am a doctor of medicine, a director of the hospital at Ihlava in Czecho Slovakia.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. I was born on the 2nd of November 1893 in Crbic.
Q. What is your nationality?
A. Czecho Slovakian.
Q. Please describe to the Court briefly your career?
A. My father was a doctor. I studied in Crbic and then in the medical faculty in Prague. I was a soldier in the first world war. I was assigned to a surgical unit under Hofrat Prof. Eisenberg in Vienna. After the end of the war I became an assistant of the surgical section in Brno. From there I went to my position in Hlava as director and surgeon. That was in 1924, 1925. I am married. My wife is from Pola, from Pola on the Adriatic.
Q. No, only your professional career. And what is your profession now?
A. As is I already said.
Q. When and for what reason were you arrested by the Germans?
A. I was arrested on the 17 July 1939 before the beginning of the war by the Gestapo. I was not interrogated. Later I was told that Germany was facing very serious events; that I would be put in protective custody for political reasons. My wife tried to find out what was wrong and the head of the Gestapo told her she should not expect me to come back. During 6 years I was never told why I was arrested. Nothing was explained to me.
Later we learned that this drive was called by the Gestapo the Benesh follower drive.
Q. What was your attitude toward national socialism?
A. As I wrote no articles and no books and hold no lectures, yet I was definitely opposed, and this can be seen from the documents which have been found now after the liberation in Czecho Slovakia. Kreisleitung Iglav asked the Gestapo to proceed against me with all possible moans.
Q. Where were you in custody?
A. I was in a Gestapo prison in Islawa, then in a collecting camp at Snolna, in the fortress prison Speilberg in Brno, and then I was sent to the famous Gestapo prison Polizeigefaenghis in Berlin where I did medical service, but suddenly I was locked up separately. I was locked up for six months without any reason being given. I had no ventilation. It was in the middle of the summer. Only later did I learn why this procedure had been taken with me. I took a trip through the prisons of Germany. I was in a prison in Vienna, Salzburg, Munich, Plaven and finally in Buchenwald.
Q. When did you come to the concentration camp Buchenwald?
A. On the 9th of December 1941.
Q. What was your activity in the concentration camp Buchenwald?
A. I was in the stone quarry but I was not there very long. Then I was in conversation with the Czech Liaison man. The Czech Liaison man said when Dr. Hoven came back from Leeds I would not stay in the stone quarry. I was also in the penal company and the liaison man, Dr. Seidak assured me I would not stay there. It was reported that Dr. Hoven would come back from Christmas leave on the 29th of December, and I was to be released on that day. Dr. Hoven immediately took me into the hospital. Dr. Hoven did not oven examine me. I was accepted there as a patient.
Q. What was your position after the liberation of the camp by the Americans?
A. At the end of 1944 when the camp was enormously large, I believe we had in evidence more than one hundred thousand prisoners, I was the chief surgeon.
A week after the liberation I was appointed. Chief of the Allied Medical Staff.
Q. You mentioned the name, Dr. Hoven, just now. Is this the same Dr. Hoven who is in the dock here?
A. Yes, he is in the second row, the fifth man from the right.
THE PRESIDENT: You will note for the record, that the witness has correctly identified the witness (defendant) Hoven.
BY DR. FAWLIK:
Q. What did you do in the hospital?
A. I came into the hospital as a patient. Dr. Hoven told me that there were no doctors there yet, you will be the first doctor, and the prisoners who work there do not understand their business. They all performed operations. They even performed appendectomies. They were afraid that they would lose their jobs. Dr. Hoven was right, as I realized later when I went to see a leading prisoner, Capo Weingartner, he said: "Comrade Horn, we do not need any doctors hero." I was a patient for three or four months, I believe. Dr. Hoven called me in for operations which I generally performed alone and went back as a patient to my bed. Suddenly I was released from the penal company and then I was put on the detail as a nurse. Generally I worked only in the operating room. I had the authority from Dr. Hoven to prepare for the necessary operations, and if necessary to carry out the operations. Generally, I was given an SS doctor such as Dr. Kraeft as assistant or Dr. Platzer and others. I performed the operations, and later when the SS doctors took an interest in the operations Dr. Hoven told me that the SS doctors would also perform operations. First, it was to be a theoretical discussion and then the operations were to begin. As an old surgeon at that time I pointed, out to Dr. Hoven that the operating technique required a certain amount of training, and Dr. Hoven said: "Do whatever you think is necessary and whatever you consider necessary." The young subaltern SS doctors did not like this and it was clear to me that they complained about me. They said my technique was very complicated. I said that they should begin with simple things like making knots, learning how to hold the instruments and so on.
Dr. Hoven was always on my side. He said a rule had to he made when a doctor can perform a breach operation, so I made a plan. The doctors first had to understand the matter theoretically and then they worked as assistants for about ten operations and then they performed twenty operations with my help and then we went on to other operations, such as appendectomies. We went into it gradually, and if it was not clear or if something went wrong, then we performed the operations on corpses. And later I was gradually let into the wards where the sick prisoners were and we had further training of the personnel, and later when other doctors came, that is prisoners, doctors, we had medical seminars. That was up to the time when Dr. Hoven was taken into custody.
Q. Please describe to the Tribunal the medical care in the Concentration Camp Buchenwald under Dr. Hoven?
A. When I came to the camp in December 1941 I believe that Dr. Hoven was not the chief camp physician. I believe his predecessor had typhus and he was merely representing him. The hospital had about three hundred beds, an internal and external section in three barracks. It had an x-ray station, a dental station, and a few auxiliary sections, like the laundry, etc.
Q. Did Dr. Hoven introduce improvements in the medical care?
A. We found in the camp that only nurses were treating the prisoners - no doctors. We could not understand this. When I was put to work there we discussed it once with Dr. Hoven and then further steps were taken. I should like to distinguish between improvements with regard to personnel and technical improvements. First, shortly after my appointment Dr. Hoven called in another doctor, Dr. Mathuschek who was used in the internal section. There was also a German doctor and I believe it was the assistant at the Dresden Orthopedic Clinic. He also worked there. Then later on other doctors came from Auschwitz to the camp and I gave a report that many doctors had arrived. I received an order from Dr. Hoven that I should bring those doctors to him. There were specialists - an eye specialist, Dr. Weick. He was used as an eye doctor in the hospital. There was Dr. Waniatta, a nose and ear specialists. He was used as a specialist at the hospital. And I point out that these are all Slavic doctors only Slavic doctors came from Auschwitz and, to go on, Dr. Pokerin, a Colonel, a nerve specialist. And, then later, I don't know whether Dr. Hoven was there yet or not, but there was a French X-Ray specialist, the professor of the French Medical Faculty in Dijor or Lyon, Professor Roussai.
That was all. And in Dr. Hoven's time a Tuberculosis Section was created. We did not have any specialist for that. I remember that there was a Jewish doctor in the camp, a tuberculosis specialist named Dr. Schnabel. It was impossible to use a Jewish doctor. Dr. Hoven got the idea that we can use him as a calfactor in the section. Dr. Schnabel was appointed but he dealt only with tuberculosis in the prisoners. Those were the improvements in the group of doctors. As for the training for the nurses. Dr. Hoven gave orders that they were to be trained and I was ordered to conduct this training. Then came the technical improvements in the camp. It grew slowly. We needed room. We asked for two hundred beds. Dr. Haven saw to it that two barracks were built with 200 beds. We had a pharmacy and the head of the pharmacy was an SS pharmacist. He was very reluctant to give out the drugs. Dr. Hoven saw to it that we get the drugs and if a report came from the pharmacy that the drugs were not available he got the drugs from Berlin. And now the matter of instruments occurs to me. In the operations on the abdomen, etc., we could perform but we did not have the instruments for tropanationfor brain operations. Later, after the bombing - August 1944, it became very important and Dr. Hoven got these instruments with some difficulty in Berlin. I myself, although there were some surgical groups already working in the campwe had French surgeons, we bad Russian surgeons, we even had a Canadian at that time - and they all performed operations. I myself during 24 hours performed ever fifty brain operations which was only because I had received the instruments from Dr. Hoven. These were the technical things but there were other improvements, too, which had great value for us as prisoners. First, the matter of medicines. Then the medic ines were not available in the prison pharmacy Dr. Hoven permitted the medical non-commissioned officer, Wilhelm to go to Weimar or Jena and buy the medicines and we were very glad to pay for this.
When the prisoner specialists were not in the camp yet it happened that various eye cases came to me. I could not do anything also. They were well known people. For example, the well known painter, Joseph Taspek, who was a serious case. Taspek is a Czech. The name was well known in connection with President Masaryk. The man was afraid of losing his sight. I went to Dr. Hoven and Dr. Hoven sent a car to Jena regularly and sent the prisoners whom we could not help there. We doctors too were not specialists. An inevation in the camp was that a prisoner doctor was sent on an outside detail with a car to see what was going on. I myself was once sent on a detail about 80 kms. from Buckenwald where a prisoner, an anti-social, had broken his foot. He had been treated by a doctor there. I took him to the surgical section in the camp hospital Buckenwald.
Q. After this detailed description I shall submit to you NO-1063, Exhibit 328. This is the testimony of Schalker. On page 16 of the German, page 14 of the English translation, Schalker says: "The camp doctor Dr. Hoven played a very bad role and he is doubtless responsible for the death of numerous people because of completely inadequate medical care." That is what the original Dutch text says.
A. I cannot remember who Schalker was and I do not want ...
Q. Dr. Horn, I want to ask you the following questions. Did Dr. Hoven as camp doctor, play an extremely poor role?
A. No, of course not.
Q. Was Dr. Hoven responsible for the death of numerous people because of completely inadequate medical care?
A. That the health care in the camp, in spite of all the improvements, was for behind any civilian care, that is quite certain, but a description of how Dr. Hoven treated the prisoners in general would be more appropriate than what Schalker says about Dr. Hoven being responsible for inadequate medical care and that he ordered poor care -- that is not true; or that he refused care to anyone, I cannot say that either. Dr. Hoven set up a network among the prisoners of liaison men. They were prisoners who could at any time speak to Dr. Hoven. They were all types -- greens or blacks or whatever they were. As a concrete example, a liaison prisoner was xray laboratory assistant of the hospital, a "green" prisoner. The professional criminals were certainly a very peculiar group of prisoners. Generally we were political prisoners -- I mean at the time of Dr. Hoven-that is at the end of December 1941 until the arrest in September 1943. During this time the majority of the political prisoners were hostages, that is, people who had not been interrogated by the Gestapo. For example, there was a large group of German prisoners there, mostly communists but there were some social democrats; there was a large group of Dutch hostages; then there were Czech hostages; and there were Poles. The Poles had a very special position. The political section of the camp, that is the Gestapo section, treated them quite differently than it treated the rest of them. Through the liaison prisoners, Dr. Hoven was in contact with all these groups That was a very important measure. The people came and reported "There is a person sick here, something must be done", and it was always arranged that the prisoners should be brought to the hospital and then the camp administration did not like this. An order was issued that no prisoner can go to the hospital unless he reports to a Report Leader, that is, an SS man working in the camp; and then in all blocks, whether they were German, Czech, Jewish or criminals, we had a so-called medical guard.
Dr. Hoven, in effect, told the SS "No prisoner may come into the hospital directly" and then he said "Only medical guards--" but they had a different name at the time of Dr. Hoven, "medical men", -- "Only he can bring them". In spite of these measures I saw that the senior block inmate, out of fear for the SS, kept back many a prisoner. "You don't need to go to the hospital, you are all right." He didn't mean it badly, but just to avoid difficulties. And then it happened that the man didn't need it. If the care was still inadequate in spite of this system, that was due to conditions -- the conditions at the camp as such, the food, and everything--and if Schalker says here that Dr. Haven is responsible for this, I must say no. As proof of this statement I must say if I or other liaison prisoners asked for anything I cannot remember that the were ever refused.
Q. Was Dr. Hoven in any material way different from the other SS doctors?
A. That is quite a broad question. It is unfortunate that I cannot show you a film which should be called "SS going through a camp street". We soldiers of the first world war, soldiers of the Vienna Monarch, we knew what it was to serve before the Kaiser, to stand at attention, but what happened when an SS man marched through the camp, I believe that surpasses any idea of any conviction of what a normal civilian can imagine. There were various stages in such a thing. The big victory of the German nation in Russia, when the Fuehrer said that the Red Army can be wiped out by police measures; then the landing in Africa; then the bombing of the American flyers and I must emphasize that it was an important moment for us later, the bombing of Nurnberg; the advance of the Red Army--that was reflected in the conduct of the SS. In 1941 when I came to the camp, when the SS went through the camp street the prisoners had to lie down, some were slapped and they were very badly treated. At that time already, at the time when the German nationals at its height, Dr. Hoven acted as follows:
going around the camp without a cap and with his hands in his pockets was normal. Sometimes he spoke to people, to the prisoners, and it was even seen that the prisoners stopped him and spoke to him. I give a concrete example; Dr. Hoven was once stopped on the street by a prisoner. He said he should be released because there was something wrong in his family. Dr. Hoven could do nothing but never-the-less he went to the hospital and told the liaison man "Investigate this matter". Evan if he did nothing and merely had the thing investigated, that was a big advantage to the prisoners that one could at least talk to the SS officer. And so the answer to your question comes up.
Q. Think of the other SS doctors-- was there any difference between Hoven and the other doctors?
A. I went through a whole series of SS prisons.
Q. How about Schidlausky, for example?
A. Dr. Schidlausky came to the camp, I believe, in November 1943. Dr. Schidlausky had a very bad reputation. I was examining a female inmate of the camp when I heard that Dr. Schidlausky had come to the camp. I did not know this SS man. The woman said I should kill her because she did not want to live if Schidlausky was in the camp. After a few days I saw that something was wrong. This SS man who was preceded by such a bad reputation, did not want to sign death certificates for prisoners who had died in the hospital from normal diseases, let us say pneumonia, and a peculiar situation arose, that we prisoners first had to initial this death certificate. A few of the prisoner doctors were authorized to do that and only then did Dr. Schidlausky sign them. In spite of this change in Dr. Schidlausky there was still a big difference. If the food was not well prepared, Dr. Schidlausky was told about it. He took no interest but said "We cannot do anything, there is a war on, we cannot get anything." And so, to sum up, I should like to say if something was missing, medicine, for instance, under Dr. Hoven, we simply went to the SS Hospital and got the medicine.