A. After being released from the punishment company, I became the so called orderly in tho hospital.
Q. How long did you remain as orderly in the hospital barracks?
Until being transferred to Block 47. I beg your pardon. I meant to say Block 49 and 44.
Q. Then about the beginning of 1942, in the first months of 1942, you were transferred to Blocks 44 and 49?
A. Yes
Q. In what capacity did you serve in Blocks 44 and 49?
A. I was attendant at the both room.
Q. Now will you tell the Tribunal what Blocks 44 and 49 were, witness?
A. Block 44 and 49 was an experimental station for typhus experiments.
Q. Did this experimental station in Blocks 44 and 49 later move to Block 46, witness?
A. After a short time Block 44 and Block 49 was sent to Block 46.
Q. Who was in charge? Who was the officer in charge of Block 46, witness?
A. Sturmbannfuehrer Ding-Schuler.
Q. Did he have any assistant doctors under him?
A. His deputy was Dr. Hoven.
Q Now, witness, in your capacity as a nurse in Block 46, were you in a position to know, that is, from your own knowledge that experiments were being conducted on human beings in Block 46?
A Yes.
Q What type of experiments were being conducted, Witness?
A Experiments were being conducted with typhus, yellow fever, and infections with lice were carried out.
Q Now, these infections with lice, witness, did you over witness any inmates at Buchenwald Concentration Camp being subjected to the infection with lice.
A Yes.
Q Will you kindly tell the Tribunal what you saw at Block 46 in connection with the infection of inmates with lice?
AA courier brought the lice into Block 46. The inmates were sent into that wing in a naked state, and then had to sit down, and they were shackled. Then the lice boxes were tied onto their legs with rubber bands.
Q How long did those inmates remain in that position, witness?
A approximately twenty minutes.
Q And, you say, witness, that you personally saw, yourself, that these inmates were chained to the chair and that these cages of lice were attached by rubber bands to their legs; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever see any inmates being infected by any method other than with lice, witness?
A Yes.
Q What method was that?
A They were injected in the upper arm.
Q What were they injected with, witness?
A They were injected with typhus, typhus culture.
Q Did you ever witness any of these inmates being subjected to injections with infected blood?
A Yes, I saw such injections being carried out.
Q Now, witness, you have told us that inmates were infected with lice. You said that a courier brought these lice to Block 46 in Buchenwald. Do you know where those lice came from?
AAccording to what the courier said, these lice came from Krakow. The couriers came along and range the bell in the Block 46. I opened the door and they gave me the packages, and then remained for a few minutes smoking cigarettes.
Q Now, witness, when these inmates were being infected with lice and were chained to their chairs, who was present at that time?
A These were present: The Capo Dietsch, Doctor Hoven, and one officer of the Wehrmacht.
Q Was Doctor Ding-Schuler present, witness?
A No.
Q Now, witness, as a result of these experiments, these injections, which you, yourself, saw: do you know whether or not any of the inmates subjected to these experiments died as a result of them?
A During my time in Block 46, I saw approximately twenty persons die.
Q Now, witness, you say you saw these people die. Were you in a position, personally, to see the dead after such experiments had been conducted?
A Yes.
Q Were your duties as a nurse directly connected with the care of the inmates subjected to these experiments?
A I had the task to bathe the inmates, to care for their belongings, and I therefore had excess to every ward.
Q Now, witness, you stated you had to care for their belongings as well as take care of them physically. You were in a position to determine what type of prisoners were being subjected to these experiments, were you not?
A There were all sorts of prisoners.
Q Can you tell us, witness, what procedure was carried out when a victim was brought to the Block 46 to be experimented on; that is, did the victim first report to you and surrender his clothing?
Tell us the entire details of what happened to the inmates upon their arrival in Block 46?
AAfter the inmates arrived at Block 46, they had to undress completely. I noted down their personal effects and noted their personal data, and then the inmates were bathed and received clean pajamas and were then brought into the ward rooms.
Q Now, witness, you stated that you wrote down their personal data from the inmates; therefore, could you tell the Tribunal whether or not any Polish people were used in these experiments?
A Every sort of prisoner was used for these experiments.
Q That is, all nationalities, witness?
AAll nationalities.
Q Now, witness, were political prisoners used for these experiments, from your knowledge, in connection with your duties?
A Yes.
Q Were criminal prisoners used?
A Yes.
Q Now, were you able to determine, witness, whether or not these criminal prisoners used in these experiments were criminals condemned to die or to death for crimes they committed?
A Yes.
Q Were any of these criminals used, that were, in fact, condemned to death?
A No.
Q Now, witness, you have stated in your time that you saw twenty deaths. Now, after a person led what happened to him? Did you have any connection with the corpse after completion of the experiments?
A the corpse was taken into the bath room, I then had to write his number on his side with ink, and then, and then had to deliver his personal belongings there after the corpse was laid on a stretcher and sent into the morgue of the hospital.
Q And, you say, witness, that you personally, yourself, wrote a number on the dead person?
A Yes.
Q That you had twenty or more of such experiences; is that correct?
A I could not give you the exact data but there were at least twenty persons.
Q Now, witness, you arrived in Block 46, in other words, were assigned to duty in Block 46, in early 1942; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did you then later receive a reassignment for duty in Block 50?
A Yes.
Q When did that occur, witness?
A That was early in 1943 when I received the task to start in Block 50 with the Capo there.
Q Then, you remained in Block 50 until your liberation in April 1945; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q In your position within the concentration camp did you see the defendant Hoven?
A Yes.
Q Will you look over to the dock and identify Hoven, witness?
A The fourth from the left in the last row.
Q Would you stand up, witness, and walk out here to the middle for identification purposes?
(Witness walks to the floor.)
A The fifth one.
Q All right, witness, you may be seated.
MR. HARDY: I request, your Honor, that the record show the witness properly identified the defendant Hoven.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the witness identified the defendant Hoven in the dock.
Q Now, witness, during your tine in Block 46, do you personally know of any visits of a Doctor named Mrugowsky?
A Mrugowsky was there on at least two occasions, there in Block 46 -once in Block 46 and later in Block 50; that is twice as far as I know.
Q Did you see him yourself on any of the visits to Block 46?
A I did not really sue him in Block 46.
Q Where did you see him, witness?
A In block 50.
Q What was the occasion when you saw him? Did he come to your office, or where you wore stationed, or did you happen to see him casually, or under what circumstances?
AAs the orderly in Block 50 for Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuler, I had to serve coffee, whenever Dr. Mrugowsky was there for a visit.
Q Now, witness, do you believe that you could recognize Dr. Mrugowsky in the dock?
A No.
Q You don't think you could recognize him?
A No, so many things have happened to me that I do not think that I could remember Mrugowsky's face and that I could identify him properly.
Q Then, how do you know that Mrugowsky visited Buchenwald? Were you told that that was Dr. Mrugowsky, or was he a famous person and when he came he was much talked about?
A Whenever in Block 50 or 46 a visitor arrived, a few days before that we were told to keep everything clean and in order to make the best impression on the visitor. Sturmbannfuehrer Schuler gave me the order to keep everything in order and sparklingly clean for the occasion of a visit of Mrugowsky.
Q Now, witness, in your work at Buchenwald, did you have a close relationship to the defendant Hoven, whom you have just identified?
A Personally I did not have very much to do with Dr. Hoven.
Q Did he visit Block 46 often?
A Yes, very often.
Q Was he in charge of Block 46 whenever Dr. Ding-Schuler went on a trip?
A Yes.
Q And on such occasions were the experiments still going on?
A The experiment was still carried on, whether Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuler was there or not.
Q That is, experiments were being conducted when Dr. Hoven was in charge of Block 46, in the absence of Dr. Ding? Is that correct?
A Yes.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any of the Counsel for the defendants desire to cross examine this witness?
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. FLEMMING (Counsel for defendant Mrugowsky):
Q Witness, would you describe to the Tribunal in what manner the bathing installation in Block 46 or before in 44 and 49 was operated?
A The bathing installation was very primitive. For the very first experiment -- there were approximately 60 or 80 experiments -- we only had one basin with one shower. Since our boiler was heated by means of coat, it was hardly possible to bathe all patients as regularly as should have been done.
Q So, you did not bathe all patients but only a part of them?
A I bathed all the patients, but not always in the prescribed period when it should have been necessary.
Q You were speaking about yellow fever experiments, witness.
A Yes.
Q After the vaccinations, did any persons receive yellow fever?
A Yes, some of them became ill. The yellow fever experiments, as was told me by Capo Arthur Dictsch and the clerk, were soon discontinued because, apparently, they did not show the wished for results.
Q How do you know, witness, that in the case of the yellow fever experiment--which you have described as an experiment--we are really concerned with experiments and not just with protective vaccinations?
A The Capo of the block and all nurses told me that during the course of conversations. In addition, I had insight into the case histories, Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 January 1947.
0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in the courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the fact that all the defendants are present in the court.
Because of transportation difficulties one of the judges is late. We cannot proceed with the taking of testimony, but the court has an announcement to make and we will proceed with that.
In the matter of the need for an established procedure for obtaining written statements from persons having knowledge of facts deemed by the defendants to be material and of probative value to their respective defenses having been called to the attention of the Tribunal, and the members of the Tribunal having met with representatives of the prosecution and with a committee of defense counsel, and thereafter the representatives of both the prosecution and counsel for the defendants having presented to the Tribunal a written and signed outline of a method mutually satisfactory to the prosecution and to the defendants' counsel, whereby written statements signed and witnessed may, if of probative value and otherwise in proper form, be offered in evidence before the Tribunal and received in evidence if in the judgment of the Tribunal they should be so received, notwithstanding the fact that such statements may be signed by the person making the same without having been sworn to before an officer or any person having by virtue of an office lawful authority to administer an oath in due form of law.
The Tribunal has considered the written stipulation signed by representatives of the prosecution's staff and by representatives of counsel for the defendants and desires the following order in connection with the subject matter thereof: First, it is ordered by Military Tribunal 1 that the rule heretofore promulgated and adopted by the Tribunal concerning the requirements to be observed by the defendants in the preparation of written statements by defense witnesses "in lieu of oath" be and the same is hereby rescinded. Second, it is further ordered by Military Tribunal 1 that the following rule concerning the subject matter above referred to shall be, and the same is hereby adopted and "promulgated by the Tribunal for the information of all concerned."
a. Statements of witnesses made "in lieu of an oath" may be admitted in evidence if otherwise competent and admissible and containing statements having probative value if the following conditions are met.
1. The witness shall have signed the statement before defense counsel. or one of them, and defense counsel shall have certified thereto; or 2. The witness shall have signed the statement before a notary, and the notary shall have certified thereto; or 3. The witness shall have signed the statement before a burgomeister, and the burgomeister shall have certified thereto, in case neither defense counsel nor a notary is readily available without great inconvenience; or 4. The witness shall have signed the statement before a competent prison camp authority, and such authority shall have certified thereto in case the witness is incarcerated in a prison camp.
3. The statement "in lieu of an oath" shall contain a preamble which shall state, "I, (name and address of the witness), after having first been warned that I will be liable for punishment for making a false statement in lieu of an oath, state and declare that my statement is true in lieu of an oath, and that my statement is made for submission as evidence before Military Tribunal 1, Palace of Justice, Nuremberg, Germany, the following:"
6. The signature of the witness shall be followed by a certificate stating: "The above signature of (stating the name and address of the witness) identified by (state the name of the identifying person or officer) is hereby certified and witnessed by me. (To be followed by the date and place of the execution of the statement and the signature and witness of the person or officer certifying the same).
(b) 1. If special circumstances make compliance with any one of the above conditions impossible or unduly burdensome, then defense counsel may make application to the Tribunal for a special order providing for the taking of the statement of a desired witness concerning conditions to be complied with in that specific instance.
Finally, it is further ordered by Military Tribunal 1 that the foregoing rule as adopted and announced by the Tribunal be incorporated in the minute book and in the journal of Military Tribunal 1, and that copies thereof, together with correct translations thereof into the German language, properly certified by the Secretary General, be delivered to each of the defendants or their respective counsel.
The Prosecution may now proceed.
MR. HARDY: Defense counsel for the defendant Hoven was cross examining at the recess yesterday. I wonder if he has completed his cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination of this witness by any defendant's counsel?
FRITZ KIRCHHEIMER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GAWLIK: (Counsel for Defendant Hoven):
Q. Witness, I am submitting to you document No. 265). It is the diary of the Division for Typhus and Virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. It is at Page 40 of the English Document Book. Witness, can you find the entry of the 11th of February, 1942?
A. Yes.
Q. It is on the 30th of November 1942. It is on Page 40 of the English Document Book. Did you find that, Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. You see an entry there that "the lice and their cages must be burned immediately, as the latter become leaky during transport and therefore represent a danger of epidemic in Camp Buchenwald."
A. Yes.
Q. With reference to this burning of the lice, I have one question. You remember Rudolph Hart, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You also know the chief nurse at the TBC station, "Willie Jellinek, who was called "Jumbo"?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that Hart and Jellinek informed the defendant Hoven about the delivery of the lice and asked him to prevent using these lice for that purpose?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that the Defendant Hoven appeared in Block 46 where these cages with three thousand lice were contained?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you at that time listen to a conversation between political inmates and the Defendant Hoven where it was said that these cages were leaky and that, therefore, these lice would have to be exterminated?
A. Yes. I remember that conversation. It was with the clerk Liebrand.
Q. And do you know that after that the Defendant Hoven burned these lice in the oven of the big room which was before the tailor and shoe shop?
A. No. Dr. Hoven didn't burn them himself.
Q. Do you know, then, - well, I want to put to you another question first. But you do remember that this conversation with reference to the burning of the lice was carried on with the Defendant Hoven?
A. Well, the matter was as follows: Liebrand and another few men, amongst them I, knew of the pain which these people experienced.
Q. Witness, you probably are mixing up something. Lice was sent on two occasions. Please take a look at this deary.
A. I was only once present when these lice were used.
Q. And what you have told me up to now only referred to an incident, with lice, lice that have actually been used?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that before these lice were applied another delivery of lice had arrived which was completely destroyed?
A. No.
Q. And now I am coming to the second delivery of lice of which you know, during which part of these lice were actually applied. Do you know that these lice were taken by a technical inspector of the Army who was supposed to supervise these lice and the way they were used?
A. I cannot say with certainty whether this officer of the Armed Forces was actually a technical officer or not. He brought these lice along accompanied by two couriers who after these lice were delivered left the block. However, the officer remained.
Q. Do you know that this officer or inspector - it makes no difference -
was supposed to supervise the way these lice were applied?
A. I don't know whether he was supposed to supervise it. At any rate, he was present.
Q. Do you know that Ding knew and was informed of the arrival of this lice contingent and that he ordered the execution of this experiment?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about an agreement between the political inmates and in particular Gellinek with the Defendant Hoven to the effect that this technical inspector or officer was to be removed in order to be able to destroy these lice once more?
A. No At that time Gellinek had no access to Block 46.
Q. Well, he didn't have to have access to Block 46. This agreement was made outside Block 46, and contact was made with the motor pool, and this officer or the technical inspector was given a motor car, and he was then told that "Here is a car for you, and if you are not willing to take this car, you have to walk to Weimar, "which was ten kilometers away. Do you know anything about that?
A. I know that this officer approximately at the middle of the experiment left Block 46. I know nothing about an agreement with Gellinek.
Q. But you can confirm that this officer left the Block at the middle of the experiment?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that at the time the Defendant Hoven entered the room where these experiments were conducted, the Capo Dietsch had already applied these lice to the larger part of the experimental subjects?
A. I can remember that about six persons had already received these lice.
Q. Weren't there a little more? Wasn't it the case that there were two rows of people, that there were two rows of chairs where the inmates were sitting, and one row had already been finished with, and then the Capo Dietsch had already arrived at the second row?
A. It was quite impossible for one row to be finished already since one inmate was always seated opposite to another.
Q. But you remember that six persons wore approximately finished with?
A. Yes, approximately.
Q. Do you know that the Defendant Hoven after entering the room could determine that among the experimental subjects there was one political inmate by the name of Wacht?
A. Yes.
Q. And did the Defendant subsequently order immediately that this political inmate Wacht was to be sent away?
A. Yes.
Q. You already told me, witness, that the inspector left the room during the experiment?
A. Yes
Q. Is it correct that the Defendant Hoven immediately thereafter gave the following order: "Take the lice away; burn the cages"?
A. No. After these lice were applied, we discussed the best way to remove these lice.
Q. Excuse me. Who do you mean by "we"?
A. It was the clerk, Liebrand, a nurse whose name I don't remember, and I, and we decided that one such case was to be destroyed, that the lice were to be put into a basin, and then to go to Dr. Hoven and tell that this meant a danger for the entire camp, and that it would be much better to burn these lice. This was actually done in the C Wing of this Block.
Q. I am now coming to another point. Is it correct that the Defendant Hoven never actually had an injection needle in his hand for vaccination?
A. I never saw that.
Q. Is it correct that the Defendant Hoven never conducted any infections on experimental subjects?
A. No, not he himself.
Q. The Defendant Hoven admits that he was present in Block 46 every day. He maintained, however, that he visited the tailor and shoe shop which was there, in particular, Joseph Knittel, who was employed there. We are concerned with Knittel who was to be sent away on a transport and was hidden by the Defendant Hoven in the workshop located there, is that correct?
A. Yes. It is correct that Knittel worked there. However, I know nothing about these connections with reference to the transport of Knittel.
Q. And how about the visits of the Defendant Hoven into this workshop?
A. Yes. Dr. Hoven repeatedly visited Block 46. With the exception of two occasions he only visited the tailor and shoe shop.
Q. And if I understood you correctly, witness, that the Defendant Hoven only visited the hospital ward on two occasions.
A. Yes. I only saw him visit the ward on two occasions.
Q. And now will you please tell the High Tribunal how long you were in Block 46?
A. I remained in Block 46 until the beginning of 1943, and I was then transferred to Block 50, that is, Spring, 43. At that time Block 50 had not been furnished yet, and I had to furnish it.
A. Then how long exactly were you in Block 46?
A. From the time leaving Block 49.
Q. Well, give me the exact date, about one year and a quarter?
A. Yes.
Q. That is really from the end of 41 until the beginning of '43, and during that period you only saw the Defendant Hoven on only two occasions in the hospital ward?
A. Yes.
Q Is it correct that the Jewish inmate, August Kohn, was employed there as a nurse?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that the defendant Hoven among others transferred this August Kohn, and a few ether Jews in Block 46, since they were supposed to be transported to Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q Do you think it is possible, witness, that the two or three visits of which you spoke, the visits in the ward room, were intended for this purpose of Capo Dietsch towards August Kohn?
A I can not say that since I was not present personally in the room.
Q However, you can not exclude the possibility?
A Yes, it could have been possible.
Q Is it correct that the Capo Dietsch acted completely independently?
A In the organization of the Block 46 he had a free hand. However, he conducted no serious experiments without the approval of one of the responsible physicians. He was an executive organ.
Q Do you know that the defendant Hoven only because of requests by the political inmates was nominated as being their representative?
A No.
Q You don't know that?
A No.
Q Yesterday, you stated that there was only one basin in the washroom, and one shower, and that, therefore, you could not conduct the baths of the inmates in the prescribed periods.
A Yes.
Q What exactly do you mean by baths at the prescribed periods?
A For the purposes of the therapy of typhus, they had to have a luke warn bath, and because of the insufficient opportunities, I could not bathe the inmates at the prescribed periods.
Q Who was being the representative in Block 46 after the arrest of the defendant Hoven?
A I think it was the camp physician at that time.
Q Do you know his name?
A I believe it was Dr. Schiedlauski.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination of this witness by any of defense counsel? Any re-direct examination of this witness by the Prosecution?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Now, witness, you have stated to the defense counsel's question, if Dr. Hoven had personally administered any injections in Block 46, and your answer was, "No, he did not himself." Now do you know whether or not Dr. Hoven ever issued any of the orders to carry out the experiments to administer injections to the others working in Block 46?
A Because of Capo Dietsch who was the executive organ, and in spite of all liberties which he enjoyed, he could not permit himself to conduct any suck experiments on his own initiative.
Q Therefore, in the absence of Dr. Ding before Capo Dietsch could act, he must have received orders from Dr. Hoven, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now you have stated that you personally said Dr. Hoven during your time in Block 46 only two times in the hospital section of Block 46. Now, witness, do you know whether or not Dr. Hoven visited that section in Block 46 more than the times you saw him?