Q And for what purposes were you sent to Natzweiler, you said something about the Nacht und Nebel.
A The Nacht und Nebel.
Q You were in that group and under that Nacht und Nebel decree? How do you know that?
A We saw one time in Armersfoerth when waiting for our transport we saw Heinrich who visited us and talked to us and he had a paper in his hand and it read something like "Nacht und Nebel Erlasse."
Q Can you say to what extent from your own knowledge--
A Yes, from my own knowledge.
Q Can you say to what extent from your own knowledge other citizens from you country were put in similar transports for the concentration camps?
A Yes, sir. Afterwards there came other people who came to the camp. When we came in the camp we had to paint with red, -- what do you call that, -- we had to paint letters on our clothes.
Q Stencil letters of some sort?
A Yes, two N's on our back, and on our legs, on our breeches.
Q Was that true of all the people who came in under that decree?
A Yes, only for the people who came in under that decree.
Q Did you ever see a document or paper of any kind while you were in the camp which denoted the type of custody under which you were held, whether you were hold as a political prisoner, a bible researcher, or a professional criminal or a race poluter while you were held?
A Yes, when we came in we were adjusted in the Politische Abteilung, the political department and we saw how they filled out and they wrote down our names and the filled in two papers on the Nacht und Nebel, and afterwards when we came to Dachau at first I wrote, -- at first I could write a letter. It was forbidden for the Nacht und Nobel to write a letter or receive parcels or other things, and I wrote a letter twice, and the third time I was writing, then one of the German SS said to me that I could not write for I mas still Nacht und Nebel.
Q And what did you understand that to mean?
A Nacht und Nebel meant that you were put in prison, nobody knew where, you couldn't write letters to home and you couldn't receive parcels. The people at home didn't knew where you were and we should go at night and Nacht und Nebel forever.
Q And do you know whether or not the record which showed your name, where you came from and the reason for your custody was kept on file there?
A Yes, sir, it was kept there, but I never saw it.
JUDGE SEBRING: I see. Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, referring to these trials that you had, how many judges set on these trials, one man or more than one?
A There were about four or five judges with the president. The president was in the first trial of the Wehrmacht, and the Richter of the Luftwaffe, his name was Klump, and in the second trial of the Luftwaffe it was Judge Powschele.
Q Were you represented by counsel?
A Yes, sir. We had German counsels.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions.
DR. GAWLIK: Gawlik counsel for Hoven. Mr. President, I have a number of other questions in addition to the questions you just put.
Q How long were you arrested?
A From the 21st of July 1942 until the 29th of April 1945.
Q Was it possible that Nacht und Nebel inmates were ever released and under what conditions would they be released?
A I have never heard of a case that Nacht und Nebel was released, for most of them were sent to extermination camps, like my case.
Q In what concentration camp were you?
A In Holland in Armersfoerth.
Q I am speaking of Germany now.
A In germany in Narzweiler and afterwards in Dachau.
Q Your statements therefore only refer to the camps of Natzweiler and Dachau?
A Yes, sir.
Q If I now put to you, witness, that a camp physician of another camp has succeeded in getting a large number of Nacht und Nebel inmates released would you agree with me that this was an exception?
A Yes, sir.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other question of the witness?
Does the Prosecution desire to conduct redirect examination?
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, before your two trials you state that you were first arrested by the Gestapo in July of 1942 and then you were condemned to death without a trial?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, who condemned you to death without a trial in the first instance?
A I was interrogated about eleven days and on the evening of the 10th day there came in an officer of the SD, and he had a paper in his hand and he told me that I was condemned to death by a Standgericht. I don't know what court martial and then he said I would be shot down the next morning for spy work and political activities.
Q And then the next morning you were actually blind-folded?
A Yes, I was blindfolded and handcuffed and they took me with them. I thought I should have been shot, but they brought me to one or another room I don't know where and then they put me before a high ranking officer, I believe an Obergruppenfuehrer of the SD. This man asked me some questions and then he said to me, "You must see this whole case as an error and you must forget it and you must never speak about it."
Q Did he then release you and let you return home or keep you in jail?
A No, I was still kept in jail.
Q Then you later had the two trials?
A Yes sir.
Q In these particular transports in which Nacht und Nebel inmates were in; do you know what happened to all the Nacht und Nebel inmates when they arrived at the camp?
A Yes sir, most of us came in these heavy commands of "Strassenbau."
Q Did they exterminate any of the Nacht und Nebel prisoners?
A Yes, many of them were slain in their work while working with the carriage.
Q Was it known that the system was to exterminate Nacht und Nebel prisoners?
A Yes sir, it was a so-called extermination camp and the Nacht und Nebel -Haeftlinge had to be treated worse than the others.
Q I see. I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary will file for the record the certificate from Captain Roy A. Martin, captain Medical Corps, Prison Physician, U. S. Army, stating that the defendant Herta Oberhauser is a patient in the 385th station hospital, U. S. Army. The diagnosis is acute gastroenteritis. The Secretary will file the certificate.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness, Broers.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Broers is excused from the witness stand.
MR. HARDY: Before I proceed to the next witness, Your Honor, the question of the formal introduction of the prosecution's documents which have been marked for identification is one which the Tribunal discussed in the presence of the prosecution and the defense counsel at a meeting in chambers several weeks ago, and the Tribunal stated that they would look over the documents and then indicate which ones or take an assumption that they would all be subjected to objections and so forth. Now, in order to assist the Tribunal in that matter I have now prepared two sets of all the documents marked for identification, with an index. I will have, before the end of the day or by tomorrow morning, additional complete sets prepared and likewise maybe one or two for defense counsel. Everybody has copies of these particular documents but I will give these two sets to the Tribunal now in the period of the next half a day or this evening and they can look over these two sets and instruct us in a most expeditious way to introduce these for formal acceptance.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the prosecution any evidence to introduce this afternoon?
MR. HARDY: I have a witness to call now, Your Honor, and this afternoon I have no evidence to introduce, other than these documents which are marked for identification. And if it is possible for me to get all books together, that is, two or three more books together, by this afternoon, I will be able to take up the identification problem. After that time the prosecution may have one more witness to call and may have two or three other miscellaneous rebuttal documents; other than this, we have no further testimony to offer.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I ask the prosecution first to submit a list of documents which are offered really for identification up to now and which are finally to be admitted in evidence, so that we will have a period of twenty-four hours to examine these documents.
MR. HARDY: Of course, Your Honor, that is unnecessary but I will have the list. The twenty-four-hour period does not apply here. The defense has had some of them since January 26th.
THE PRESIDENT: These documents have already been offered to the Tribunal and marked for identification and copies delivered to defense counsel. I see no occasion for any further delay in the proceedings.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, it is not a question of the submission of the documents, but as long as the documents were only offered for identification we had no formal objections. Now, when these documents are to be admitted finally, we have to determine whether there are any formal objections. I am merely asking for a list of the numbers.
MR. HARDY: He will get that, Your Honor, in due course.
THE PRESIDENT: The list will be delivered to counsel for the defendants.
MR. HARDY: At this time, Your Honor, the prosecution wishes to call the witness Gerrid Hendrick Nales to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Gerrid Nales to the witness stand.
MR. HARDY: The witness's first name is spelled G-e-r-r-i-d, rather than the way it is spelled on the notice. His middle name is spelled H-e-n-d-r-i-c-k, rather than the way it is spelled in the notice. The last name is the same - N-a-l-e-s.
This witness will testify in the German language, Your Honor.
(GERRID HENDRICK NALES, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows.)
JUDGE SEBRING: Please hold up your right hand and be sworn.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
Proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, do you hear in the German language?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, during the course of this interrogation, after I propound a question to you, you will kindly hesitate a moment before you answer to enable the interpreters to put the question into the German language and the answer back to me in the English.
Witness, what is your full name?
A. Nales, Gerrid Hendrick.
Q. When were you born?
A. On 1 October 1915.
Q. Where were you born?
A. In Rotterdam.
Q. You are a Dutch citizen?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you outline to the Tribunal you educational background?
A. Public school.
Q. Did you go any further than public school?
A. No.
Q. How many years of school did you have in total?
A. Eight years.
Q. What was your occupation prior to the time that you were arrested by the Gestapo?
A. I was a fashion designer and draftsman.
Q. Witness, when were you first arrested by the Gestapo?
A. On 20 August - only one day.
Q. What year?
A. 1940.
Q. Were you ever arrested for any crimes prior to the arrest by the Gestapo?
A. No, never.
Q. What was the purpose for which you were arrested in August 1940 by the Gestapo?
A. I was in a Gestapo raid on the resistance movement.
Q. Would you remember whether or not you were given a trial after your arrest by the Gestapo for underground activities?
A. Yes.
Q. You were given a trial?
A. No.
Q. Well, did they merely keep you in prison or did they release you after having arrested you in August 1940?
A. I was freed by the Dutch police. Later I was rearrested again on 13 November 1940 until 1945.
Q. And when you were arrested on 13 November - that is, rearrested were you then given a trial?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the result of that trial?
A. We were separated and we were sent to the concentration camp Buchenwald.
Q. Well, at that trial did they pass sentence on you?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a trial before a court of judges?
A. It was a court martial. I was not convicted.
Q. How many men sat on that court martial? Did you appear before a court martial board, a group of men?
A. I don't remember exactly.
Q. And then you were sent to the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you arrive in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. 18 April 1941.
Q. How long did you remain in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. Until March 1942.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Then I was sent on a transport to Natzweiler, concentration camp Natzweiler in Alsace.
Q. How long did you remain in Natzweiler - from March 1942 until when?
A. From 14 March 1942 until 4 September 1944.
Q. And then what happened to you?
A. Then we were transferred to Dachau.
Q. How long did you remain in Dachau?
A. Until the liberation by the Americans on Sunday, 29 April 1945.
Q. After you were transferred from Buchenwald to the Natzweiler concentration camp in March 1942, what work detail were you assigned to?
A. First I worked on barracks construction and then transport columns, the stone quarry, the DEST, and I went through all the details in the camp.
when Q. Well,/did you first become an assistant nurse.
A. November 1942, perhaps - assistant nurse.
Q. And what were your duties there in the hospital?
A. I was used as a nurse only when the Ahnenerbe research station was set up.
Q. What is this name "Ahnenerbe" that you mentioned?
A. Ahnenerbe was a experimental station that was set up in a special department of the hospital, the prisoners' hospital.
Q. When was this Ahnenerbe research institute, as you call it, set up in the prisoners' hospital in Natzweiler, on what day - in November 1942 - the same time that you were there?
A. November 1942, in the course of the month of November.
Q. And you were assigned to work at this experimental or research station, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know anything about experiments being conducted on human beings in Natzweiler?
A. When the first experiments were carried out, a test, a burning test, on the arms and the body--
Q. Were those experiments with gas?
A. I think - I can't say because I am not a doctor. I can only tell you what I saw, the procedure.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal just what was done to the inmates in this burning procedure?
A. When the experiments were started, there were 14 German prisoners. First these people were given the army food. They were fed a little with the army food and then the experiments started. The professors came from Strassbourg and on these "15" people on their lower arm they rubbed something that was yellow material, and then the people were told they had to go to bed and keep their sleeves up. Most of the people lost consciousness and parts of their body were burned. After 24 hours they were covered with wounds. It had eaten up to their upper arm and then the parts of their body that were touched by their arms.
DR. TIPP (Counsel for defendants Schroeder and Becker-Freyseng): Mr. President, the witness is testifying in German but he is uncomprehen sible.
He is apparently a Dutchman and does not speak German well enough to testify in German so that it can be understood. Since the testimony is apparently rather poor, it might be advisable to have the witness testify in his mother tongue, that is, in Dutch, and to have an interpreter.
MR. HARDY: What does the interpreter think of that? Are you able to interpret this man's German into English? I am talking to Miss von Schon.
THE INTERPRETER: The German is rather difficult, Mr. Hardy.
MR. HARDY: Is it understandable enough so that the testimony here is clear; so it can be translated into English?
THE INTERPRETER: I think that so far I have understood the witness.
THE WITNESS: I speak German as I have learned it.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, my interrogators have talked to this witness all day yesterday and had no difficulty whatsoever in understanding him. I think Miss von Schon has done a creditable job in translating this morning and the evidence she has given coincides with the interrogations given by the witness yesterday, and we are not in a position to put in a Dutch translator.
JUDGE SEBRING: I would ask whether or not the translator in the box who is listening can understand well enough to translate whatever the witness is saying into German for the benefit of those counsel who are apparently having difficulty with their version of their mother tongue.
MR. HARDY: Is that question addressed to Mr. Lamm?
JUDGE SEBRING: It is addressed to whom it may concern.
MR. HARDY: May I put two or three questions to the witness, your Honor?
Q. (By Mr. Hardy): Witness, when you were in the Natzweiler concentration camp what language did you talk?
A. German.
Q. What language did you talk when you were in the Dachau concentration camp?
A. Only German.
MR. HARDY: That's all, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: It appears that the translators are satisfied that they are getting the gist and translating what the witness has said. I think we may proceed.
Q. (By Mr. Hardy): Witness, you were describing the details of the experiments which you preferred to as burning experiments. Will you continue your description of those experiments?
A. I have already said when the material was put on the lower arm the people were put to bed.
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, the witness has just used the word "procede" and none of us knows what that word means. Perhaps the interpreter understood it. I did not.
MR. HARDY: The word means lower arm, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I would ask the interpreter the meaning of that word.
INTERPRETER VON SCHON: I assumed that the witness was using the French word "procede", your Honor, which I translated as "material".
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel states that no interpreter from the Dutch language is available?
MR. HARDY: No, your Honor and the prosecution feels that there is no necessity for it. This man was compelled to speak German from November 1942 until April 1945, and the Germans certainly understood him at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: No one knows whether they did or not and it may be that when one is engaging in conversation that questions can be asked back and forth until the meaning is ascertained.
MR. HARDY: I think this objection is being pushed a little too far. The objection is over the use of one word "material" or "lower arm", whichever one they are referring to. I don't know whether they have an objection to any of the other words that he has used.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I wonder if the German reporters are able to transcribe what he is saying in German.
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: They write what they hear regardless of what it is.
MR. HARDY: Well, do they understand what they are writing?
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: No.
MR. HARDY: I haven't any solution, your Honor. What languages do you speak, witness? Do you also speak the French language?
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. HARDY: You speak only the Dutch language?
THE WITNESS: Dutch and German.
MR. HARDY: Dutch and German. Have you ever had any complaints about your ability to speak German before this time?
THE WITNESS: No never.
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, if I may comment on this, it is not to be denied that the witness does speak to some extent German. But what he certainly cannot explain in his broken German are those technical expressions, and we know that in these points on which the witness is to be examined--lost experiments, perhaps typhus experiments individual technical expressions are important and I am sure that the witness will not be able to give them in German. That is the objection that I have.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if the witness does not know the technical expressions he cannot even attempt to give them, but the witness ought to be able to say what he has seen, and then the interpretation of what he has seen may be for a technical witness to interpret. The matter may proceed until at least it become further complicated than it appears now.
MR. HARDY: Would the witness choose to testify in the Dutch language?
THE WITNESS: I have no difficulty in German.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the matter may proceed. I will instruct the interpreters that if they find difficulties in the translation and don't understand it, that they will immediately advise the Tribunal to that effect. I will also instruct the witness to speak very slowly and distinctly.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Hardy): Now, witness, would you continue your explanation of what you saw in the experimental station concerning these burning experiments?
A. As I have already said, the material that was put on their arms had the effect that their arms were burned and other parts of their body too. Then the people were unconscious for a few days and they were blind because there was an effect on the eyes. Some died, three. And others in the course of the month became more or less invalids and were sent back to the camp.
Q. Now, witness, do you know whether or not any of these experimental subjects died? Did you say three?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what kind of gas was used in these burning experiments?
A. No.
Q. You don't know that?
A. No.
Q. Now, was the result of these burnings terrible and atrocious looking to you; that is, the wounds created?
A. Yes, terrible.
Q. Do you know the names of the doctors who performed these gas burn experiments?
A. Professor Hirt and Bickenbach.
Q. Professor Hirt, who was Professor Hirt?
A. Professor Hirt, as far as we know, was from the University of Strasbourg.
Q. And who was Professor Bickenbach?
A. That was a colleague of his or an associate of his or something like that.
Q. How many times did you see Professor Hirt performing such gas burn experiments?
A. How often?
Q Yes.
A. The experiment with the fifteen people, that was only once.
Q. Did Bickenbach assist him in that entire experimental series of the fifteen people?
A. He was there several times. I am not certain, but I think he carried on the examination and Professor Hirt had an autopsy on a person who had died in the room of the Anenerbe station.
Q. How long did these gas burn experiments last, for a period of several months or just a week or so?
A. The treatment lasted a noon on one day and then the people were sick for some time, for some months, from April and May, '43 approximately.
Q. And these three experimental subjects who died in the gas experiments, did you see them?
A. Yes, I saw them.
Q. Did you know the name of an inmate named Holl?
A. He was the nurse in this ward.
Q. What type of a man was he? Was he a very decent character or was he a rogue or what description could you give us about him?
A. He was a political prisoner. He had been in the concentration camp for many years. He was very decent to these fellow prisoners, and he did a great deal for the people in the experimental station. Otherwise more than three would have died.
MR. HARDY: If you recall, your Honors, the testimony of the witness Holl corroborates the testimony of this witness.
Q. Now, witness, in a later period of time did you have any knowledge or connection with work by Professor Hagen?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us who Professor Hagen is or was?
A. Professor Hagen was a Luftwaffe Officer or a professor who worked in Strasbourg at the University. He wore the Luftwaffe uniform with the staff of Aesculapius on it, and in October, 1943 approximately, he came to Natzweiler for the first time.
Q: And what happened after Professor Haagen arrived in October 1943?
A: What did you say?
Q: What happened after Professor Haagen arrived in October 1943?
A: Shortly before that a transport of gypsies had come from the Birkenau camp near Auschwitz for experimental purposes for typhus experiments. And then Haagen came to Natzweiler and examined these people and had them X-rayed. And his finding was that he could not use these people for his experimental purposes and I heard that in the ahnenere station he told the camp doctor of Natzweiler that he couldn't do anything with these people and he sent a protest to Berlin and said he had to have stronger people immediately, also gypsies. Shortly after that these first one hundred of the group, a large part of them had already died on the way and then while they were in Natzweiler for a few weeks they were sent away again on the Himmelfahrt (Ascension to Heaven) transport, that means the transport where people didn't have any destination and after a few weeks, it was in November 1943, the new people arrived. I can't give an exact number but it was about 90. These people were examined again and they were found to be alright. Then Professor Haagen divided these people into two rooms, 2 groups, he made out of them. One group went to room one and the other to room two and then he divided these again into groups one and two. Then the people of the first group were given a vaccination against typhus. The second group was given nothing. I think 10 to 14 days later all the people were artificially infected with typhus. I can't tell you how, I am not a doctor, but I was there when they did it. There was a woman there, too. In the course of this matter about 30 gypsies died. And, the rest in the course of the month, until March or April, the people had recovered to a certain extent and were sent to Camp Neckar-Eltz.
As I said, about 30 died. I have evidence of that.
Q: What evidence do you have of that, witness, that 30 of these subjects used in the typhus experiments died?
A: I said about 30. I have the death records of Natzweiler. When I was put on transport to Dachau I stole the death records. I copied them so that I could use them later and under great difficulty I took them with me to Dachau.
Q: And do these records show that 30 of these experimental subjects died in the typhus experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, witness, reviewing your statement concerning the typhus experiments you state that in October 1943 a transport of 100 gypsies arrived from Auschwitz concentration camp to be used in the typhus experiments. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And then these 100 gypsies were not used as experimental subjects because their state of health did not permit it and Haagen himself then complained about it and asked for further gypsies to be sent to him at Natzweiler, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And then the further gypsies arrived?
A: Yes.
Q: And then the further gypsies arrived?
A: Yes.
Q: There were about 90 you said, in that second group?
A: Yes.
Q: And this experimental group were physically fit so that they could endure the experiments to the satisfaction of Haagen, is that correct?
A: Yes, they had recently been released from the Wehrmacht and the SS and sent to the concentration camp.
Q: Now, these prisoners they were, that is the 90 prisoners the gypsies were they well fed before the commencement of the experiments?
A: Well, fed.
Q: For a period of how long?
A: I mean when they came in they were well fed. They hadn't been in a concentration camp such a long time as we had or as other gypsies had. They had just recently been arrested.
Q: Yes, I see. Well then after their arrival they were divided into two groups?
A: Yes.
Q: In the experimental station Ahnenerbe?
A: Yes.
Q: And then Professor Haagen vaccinated one group and did not vaccinate the other, is that correct?
A: Not the other one, that's right.
Q: Were you in a position to see the vaccinations take place?
A: Yes.
Q: Then after a period of a number of days Professor Haagen returned and injected these two groups with artificial infected typhus?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see him inject with artificial infected typhus?
A: I was there. The people were all stripped naked and then I had to line the people up and bring them into the room where it was done and I saw how they were innoculated.
Q: Innoculated or injected?
A: Injected. I cannot tell you what it was injected into them.
Q: Well, how do you know that this was an artificial typhus that they were injected with? How do you know but that it was some sort of another vaccination?