Q Is it possible that it was four days?
A Well, it is possible.
Q Thank you. This food that you got, was it very salty or free of salt?
A It was free of salt.
Q That's right, it was free of salt. Then when the Professor made visits, did he visit you and ask you how your stomach was doing?
A He every day visited in the morning and asked us how we felt, whether we were thirsty or matters of that sort - that's so.
Q So he also visited you and asked you how you were feeling?
A Yes, of course.
Q I see. You were visited every morning. How many kilos did you lose?
A That I cannot tell you.
Q Do you happen to remember how much you weighed then?
A No, I don't.
Q But you were a strong healthy man.
A No, on the contrary - we were weakened because of what we had gone through previously in the concentration camp. Then, after not eating during the experiment you can imagine what we looked like.
Q Now, Mr. Laubinger, I have a picture of you here. You look very sturdy indeed. Let me show you this picture and tell me who the first three are?
A I am the third one in the top row.
Q Who are the others before you?
A That is -- I can't remember the name.
Q Well, you must know his name. You were all together there.
A No, I wasn't with him during the last days.
Q The first man you were talking about?
A Yes, he was with me.
Q Yes, you say you were together. And who is the second man?
A That was a Swiss fellow.
Q A Swiss fellow? That's wonderful. And the third one is you?
A Yes.
Q Does it seem to you that you look very weak there?
A Well, this picture was taken before the experiments.
Q Before you got the good food?
A Yes.
Q May I ask that the Tribunal also look at the picture - he is the third man.
Could it be, witness, that you weighed 60 or 61 kilos at that time?
A No, that could never be. I did not weigh that much.
Q But if in the weight charts your weight at entry is put down as 60.5, would you say the Frenchman made a mistake?
A Well, I don't know. Anyway I wasn't that heavy.
Q How much do you think you did weigh?
A I can't tell you.
Q How many days were you in the experiment?
A Just drinking sea water we were in it for 11 or 12 days.
Q Yes, that is so. Did you lose weight steadily?
A Everyday, yes.
Q And how long did you lose weight every day?
AAs long as we drank seawater.
Q And that you drank for 12 days?
A Yes, 11 or 12 days.
Q Yes, that is so. And you lost weight consistently?
A Yes.
Q Well, I will have to tell you that we have a very complete record on you here. For the four days of sea emergency ration you lost l/2 kilo in total. And, on the average you lost 1 kilo a day. Can that be so?
A I cannot tell you.
Q Good, but you were weighed every day, you said?
A Yes.
Q And then you stayed another 8 days in the experiment?
A Yes.
Q Well, in those 8 days you got nothing to eat at all?
A Nothing at all. That's right.
Q Can you say this under oath? Please think about this very carefully, Mr. Laubinger.
A You mean during the seawater?
Q Yes. We know what we are talking about - for four days you received sea emergency rations - coca cola ....
A Coca Cola? We didn't get coca cola.
Q All right, chocolate, cookies.
A For four days.
Q And then for 8 days you got no food at all, is that right?
A Yes.
Q You simply got water to drink?
A Yes.
Q How do you explain the fact that in these 8 days when you got nothing to eat - and everyone is going to lose weight if he doesn't cat for a week - hew do you explain the fact that during that time you lost only 1½ kilos, 3 pounds - in all that time - in 8 days of fasting, didn't you get something to eat?
A No, I didn't.
Q Didn't the Professor allow you to eat porridge?
A No.
Q Then, you are trying to tell this Tribunal that you fasted for 8 days and only lost 3 pounds?
A How much I lost I don't know, but I can say that during that time I was given nothing to eat, no bread, no porridge, no nothing.
Q I must tell you that the Professor allowed you to eat a little.
A No, that is not so.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I must object to defense counsel arguing with the witness. The witness has testified directly that he was given nothing to eat. I see no cause for argument between defense counsel and the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, objection will be overruled, but do not frame your questions to the witness in an argumentative manner. Just ask him direct questions.
Q How do you explain the fact that your comrades who fasted at the same time you were fasting lost 7-8 kilos, and you lost only 1½?
A That cannot be.
Q What can't be?
A That my comrades lost so much and I lost almost nothing, as you were saying. I went through exactly the same thing that my comrades went through.
Q So, you insist that you got nothing to eat?
A Yes.
Q In these 12 days you lost first 4 kilos and then 1 kilo and a few grans - let's say in total you lost 6 kilos.
A Well, as I said, I can't tell you how much I lost.
Q But can it be - on 2 September you left the experiment that on 12 September you had reached the weight that you had when you entered the experiment?
A I don't know.
Q Is it possible?
A No, in view of the food we were getting it is not possible.
Q How many gypsies were there in Buchenwald when the people were asked to volunteer for Dachau?
A I can't tell you the exact number, but there were some thousands.
Q And of this number the 40 volunteered?
A Yes. More would have volunteered if they had been wanted, but they were refused.
Q Then do you remember that when you first met the Professor he made Herzberg the trustee?
A No, I don't remember that.
Q Do you know Herzberg?
A Yes.
Q Is it true that if anything came up the Professor always negotiated with Herzberg?
A He spoke to him now and then, but what they talked about or whether they negotiated I cannot tell you.
Q Now, when you were getting this very good food before the sea emergency rations, did you, as a person with having stomach trouble, easily digest this food?
A Well, I had some trouble, but I was glad to get the food.
Q In other words, you liked it?
A Yes, I did.
Q How about your previous convictions? How many have you had?
A None at all.
Q None at all?
A None at all.
Q Do you have a good reputation in your home town?
A Nobody can say anything against me. Of course, I have a bad reputation because I had a child by a German woman, and under Hitler that was not permitted.
Q No, I am not talking about the old Hitler period. I am talking about now?
A Right now?
Q Since 1945.
A Nobody can say anything against me.
Q You said that you were in Block 20 in Auschwitz?
A Yes, that was the hospital block. I was a guard at the door.
Q Weren't you the Capo there or the room senior (Stubenaltester)?
A No.
Q Now think about this carefully?
A I am.
Q Did you carry the food?
A Yes, I did that in my free time. Sometimes I helped the man who distributed the food.
Q Didn't you take a little bit of this food from your comrades and give it to your mistress, or for yourself and have it cooked?
A No.
Q Didn't you make water available to the gypsies in the morning for them to wash themselves as a foreman in Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Didn't you hit an old gypsy woman in the face so that she fell down?
A No.
Q Didn't you hit the little gypsy children in Auschwitz so hard that they fell down?
A No.
Q Didn't you make them do knee-bends until they fell down?
A No, they did not fall down. There were 3 children there who were so bad that their mother asked me for help. She had no husband or anything. I put them on top of the stove, which was not lit, of course, but it was like a long bench. They stood up there and did knee-bonds. That was the punishment.
Q Now, in other words, you are saying what I just said was an exaggeration?
A I certainly am.
Q How much did you ask from the concentration camp fund as compensation for what you have gone through?
A What fund are you talking about?
Q The fund in Stuttgart.
A Oh, yes, 3,000 or 3,500 Marks.
Q You are sure it wasn't 30,000 Marks?
A It certainly wasn't.
Q What much compensation do you really want to ask for -for the seawater experiments?
A That was no compensation for the sea-water experiments, but simply to get me back on my feet. I am a showman by profession, and I wanted to have a wagon built -- it's being built now -- but I did not have the money for it.
So of course I turned to the concentration camp fund in Stuttgart for this assistance.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I do not see the materiality of the rehabilitation of this witness after he got out of the concentration camp; I don't see that is an issue in this case.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Counsel may proceed.
Q Herr Laubinger, the former concentration camp inmate, Pillwein, the former concentration camp inmate Vorlicek, who was brought here as a witness by the Prosecution, the doctor Dr. Lesse, the antiNazi soldier Massion, and a gypsy who was also in a concentration camp all 5 of these have stated, under oath, that Professor Beiglboeck treated the gypsies well. Do you want to say that all 5 of these men, including the member of your own race who lost everything, are liars?
MR. HARDY: Just a moment, Your Honor. If the Defense counsel wishes to quote the testimony of Pillwein, Vorlicek, and other witnesses, I wish he would do it correctly. As I recall, Vorlicek, in answer to my questions, did not say that Beiglboeck conducted himself in an orderly manner at all times. This is deceiving the witness in his testimony. I wish he would correctly quote the other witnesses before this Tribunal.
DR. STEINBAUER: I just happen to have the record here; Vorlicek, page 9509. Question: "How did Beiglboeck treat the people who were not in the experiment?" Answer: "Well". More is not being asserted by me.
Q Well, witness, did the professor treat those people well or poorly?
A From the humane point of view he never did us any harm, but he did carry out the experiments in an orderly way and penalized anyone who refused or caused any delay.
Q Did you know Eduard Bamberger?
A Yes.
Q Well, you were together with him here. He must have told you where he lived.
No, he did not.
Q Isn't he a decent chap?
AAll I know about Bamberger is what I found out about him in those 11 or 12 days in that experiment. I did not know him before that.
Q Was he in Buchenwald or Dachau?
A He was in Dachau. He came to the experiments only because he had been promised that if he participated in the experiments -- there was another friend of his there by the name of Taubmann, both these chaps had the escape point, and they were told that if they took part in the experiment they would lose that escape point. But what happened to them after this experiment, I cannot tell you.
Q But they did volunteer, didn't they?
A Yes, they volunteered.
Q And what about this adhesive tape that the professor put over the prisoners' mouths? When did he do that?
A Because the man had drunk water, or eaten, or run around, he was tied to his bed and his mouth was plastered up.
Q Witness, isn't it possible that this was done at the time a tube was put down the man's throat?
A No, quite contrary. This friend of mine was not lying very fan from me - there was one bed between us; I could see him very clearly. When he got his water the plaster was torn away from his mouth and he was given a tube and the water was given him through that tube.
Q That is what I wanted to know. Was this a bicycle tube or was it a thin tube?
A It was a single tube, about an inch in diameter.
Q Was it put through the mouth or through the nose?
A Through the mouth.
Q Did you ever sec a tube put down a person's nose?
A No, I never did.
Q Is it possible?
A That might be possible, but I never saw it.
Q So for 8 days in that experiment you got nothing to eat.
A That was more than 8 days.
Q No, you were in it altogether 12 days; for 4 days you got emergency rations and then for 8 days you fasted.
A Yes, that's right.
Q What consequences did you feel from these 8 days of fasting?
A I had attacks of dizziness; then I fall down and don't know what happens after that.
Q Is it true that a liver puncture was made on you, or are you confusing yourself with your neighbor?
A No, it was made on me.
Q Will you please tell us how that was carried out?
A I had to expose my side and lie down. Then Professor Beiglboeck pulled out a needle, 8 inches long or so, and, if I am not mistaken, this needle was in a cover, but I cannot tell you for sure. This needle was pushed between my ribs, and then the needle was pulled out. Then he examined something that had come out with the needle. In some cases it did not come out just right the first time, and he put the needle back in. In some people he put the needle in several times, until he was satisfied with the result.
Q The professor did this himself?
A Yes, he did.
Q Do you know who slept in Bed 20?
A No.
Q In Beds 43 and 44?
A I don't know.
Q Wasn't it your relative, Kiefer? You are related to the Kiefers, aren't you?
A No, I had no relatives there.
Q But you know the Kiefers?
A Yes, I know there was a Kiefer who was with me in the experiment. He was a young fellow.
Q You said there were only 7 or 8 Germans?
A Yes.
Q Don't you think it really was more than that, if I read you all these German names, from Bavaria alone?
AAll I can tell you is what I remember.
Q Couldn't it possibly be more?
A Yes, it is possible.
Q Weren't there 2 Mettbachs there?
A Two Mettbachs? There was a Schweizer - yes, his name was Mettbach.
Q Well, Furth, let me tell you, is in Bavaria. Schmidt?
A Yes, I remember Schmidt.
Q Franz?
A I can't remember him.
Q Adler?
A Yes, I remember him.
Q Was he a German or a Hungarian?
A I don't know.
Q Hoellenrainer?
A Yes.
Q Bernhard?
A Yes.
Q Herzberg?
A Yes.
Q Bamberger?
A Yes.
Q Hermann?
A I don't know him.
Q Taubmann?
A Yes, I remember him.
Q Now, there, look at this. How about Reinhardt?
A Yes.
Q Weren't there even a couple of Reinhardts in there?
A I only know one.
Q Now, there, look at that. We already have more than 7 Germans. Don't you grant the possibility that there were more?
A Yes, of course I do.
Q Were there Slovaks in the experiment?
A Slovenians, yes, but who they were and how,many, I do not know.
Q Were there Burgenlaender?
A No.
Q Remember a little fellow named Papai?
A Yes.
Q He was from Burgenland, wasn't he?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me the name of the fellow who was force-fed?
A No.
Q But you say he was only 2 beds away from you?
A Nevertheless I do not know his name. I have thought about this frequently.
Q You were in Bed 7?
A Yes.
Q Could his name have been Patschowsky?
A I don't know.
Q Then the next man was Mettbach.
A No, it was not Mettbach.
Q Then you don't know what his name was?
A No.
Q Did the Professor pass out very many cigarettes during the experiment?
A Sometimes we got 2, sometimes 3; there wore some among us who were very good, and they got an extra ration of cigarettes.
Q How long did the experiment last altogether, do you know that?
A I can only tell you approximately - 4 to 5 weeks, I should say.
Q Can it be true that on the 12th of September it was finished?
A I can't tell you the exact date.
Q Did the gypsies help the professor to clear out the experimental station?
A No.
Q. Did you cone to Block 22?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you moot Mettbach there?
A. Yes.
Q. He said here, as a witness, that he had given you a loaf of broad?
A. I don't know about that.
Q. Did you meet other comrades there?
A. Well, we were in Block 22, but we were in different rooms, one, two, and three, so we met now and again, that is so.
Q. If anyone had died, then you would have found out about it, since you gypsies stick together?
A. No, it was not possible, because about two days after that I was put to work.
Q. There were you sent to?
A. I stayed in Dachau.
Q. You stayed in the camp?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Ah, that is very important. You just went out to work during the day?
A. I was employed there in the equipment office, and while I was working there I did not have a chance to talk to anyone. After I was finished work, I was glad to have a chance to rest.
Q. Don't you think that if anyone had died you would immediately have been told about it, that was usual in the camp; was it not?
A Well, my comrades were really too dumb to do that.
Q. Well, you would not say that Mettbach was dumb, would you?
A. They were too afraid they would be sent to the hospital or something would happen to them if they told what actually happened to them or things of that sort.
Q. But you do not exclude the possibility that you could have heard of such a death if one occurred?
A. That is possible, but I heard nothing about it.
Q. At any rate, you heard nothing about a death?
A. No, I only know that two were carried to the hospital on stretchers and I saw nothing after that.
Q. When was it that they were taken out?
A. That was during the experiment.
Q. Now, before you answer, please think is it not possible that one of these men was taken away at the very beginning of the experiment?
A. No, that is not possible.
Q. THen, I must tell you that Mettbach said that he was taken away on the first day.
A. That cannot be so, Mettbach wont through the whole experiment.
Q. Now perhaps you arc mixting up the two Mettbachs. I am referring to the younger Mettbach.
A. I don t know any young Mettbach at all, all I know is the older Mettbach, he was a Schweizer and was with me in the experiment.
THE PRESIDENT: The secretary will file the certificate of Dr. Roy A. Martin, Captain, Medical Corps, stating that the defendant Oberhauser will not be able to be in court today on account of illness.
Just a moment, counsel.
During the recess which the Tribunal is about to take, the witness will be kept in the custody of the Marshal and will not be allowed to talk to anyone.
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, may I make a correction?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go ahead.
THE INTERPRETER: When this witness has been using the word "Schweizer", he is not referring to the nationality Swiss, but to the German word "Schweizer", meaning a dairyman.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the record will show the correction. The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, will you please be kind enough to give me your home address and your exact present residence?
A It is Heilbronn on the Neckar, Jaegerhausstrasse, formerly the RAD camp.
Q And this is where you are living now?
A Yes.
Q In order not to misunderstand one another, during the experiment you drank no sea water, only water which had the salt removed?
A No, this water also contained salt. It was the second type.
Q But you don't know that it was called Schaefer water?
A No, I don't know that.
Q But at any rate, it wa.s not sea water?
A Yes, it was sea water, but not as much salt content as the other.
Q Don't you know the names of the two persons who allegedly went to the hospital?
A No, I don't know their names.
Q You went through the hell of Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q After the experiment, you went into the quartermaster's office, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q Now, if you compare these two concentration camp experiences, don't you think that the quartermaster's office was a comparatively good detail?
A No, on the contrary. I had to do hard work there. I had to transport rifles and machine parts, and we had to do whatever work there was there.
Q Didn't you have to deal with the so-called property room there?
A No.
Q Is it correct that you actually experienced a liver puncture performed on you?
A Yes.
Q Well, where is the scar?
A The scar is no longer visible.
Q Don't you have a little white circle on your dark skin. I am sure that you could see if there was a liver puncture there.
A No, I can't see anything.
Q Would you agree to be given a medical examination to see whether you have such a scar?
A Certainly.
DR. STEINBAUER: In that case, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions on the part of counsel for the defendant Schroeder or Becker-Freyseng? Does the prosecution have any redirect examination?
MR. HARDY: The prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused from the witness stand.
(Witness excused.)
MR. HARDY: At this time the prosecution would like to call Karl Hoellenrainer to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring the witness Karl Hoellenrainer to the stand.
KARL HOELLENRAINER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SECRING: Hold up your right hand and be sworn. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, your name is Karl Hoellenrainer?
A Yes.
Q Would you spell your last name, please? Did you hear me, witness? Spell your last name.
A Yes.
Q Would you spell your last name, please?
A Yes. H-o-e-l-l-e-n-r-a-i-n-e-r.
Q When and where were you born, witness?
A I was born in Fuerth, in Bavaria.
Q What year, what is the date of your birth?
A I was born on the 9th of March, 1914.
Q Prior to the time that you were arrested by the Gestapo, were you ever sentenced or arrested by the police?
A No, I was arrested on the 29th of May, 1944, by the Gestapo. I was sent to Auschwitz from Nuernberg.
Q Witness, just a moment, please. Have you ever appeared as a witness before any Tribunal before this time?
A No.
Q Now, in the course of this examination, witness, I want you to attempt to be brief, yet tell the Tribunal the story of what happened to you, and also try to answer my questions specifically; and due to the fact that I am asking you questions in English and you are answering in German, it is necessary for you to pause a moment after you have heard my question so that it will be properly translated to you before you answer. Now, witness, for what reasons were you arrested by the Gestapo on the 29th of May, 1944?
A Because I am a gypsy of mixed blood.
Q And after your arrest you were sent to the Auschwitz concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q How long did you remain in Auschwitz?
AAbout four weeks.
Q And then whore were you placed?
A I was sent to Buchenwald.
Q How long did you stay in Buchenwald?
A I only stayed there for a few days.
Q And then what happened to you?
A I was in a tent camp in Buchenwald, and suddenly our numbers were called up, 40 men were called, including me, and we were told that we would have to leave for Dachau in order to work there. As soon as we arrived at Dachau we were put in a quarantine block, and one day an SS man came and wrote down our numbers, and they sent us to the surgical department of a certain doctor of the Luftwaffe. I am afraid I no longer remember that physician's name. I know that he came from the Luftwaffe and that ho was an Austrian. He examined all of us, and then we were divided into groups for a seawater experiments