Q.Was the higher SS and police leader in France also subordinate to you?
A.No, not at all.
Q.Did he ever receive orders from the German Embassy?
A.Never.
Q.Could he have accepted than?
A.No, he couldn't.
Q.You mentioned Sauckel just now. Did Sauckel have a representative of his own in France who worked directly with French Government agencies?
A.Yes, he had a representative with the rank of General who formerly was attached to the military commander.
Q.How many collaborators did this representative of Sauckel's have?
A.Well, in the years which interest you, 1943, I think he had set up a lot of branch offices all over France. I can't give you the exact number, but in 1944 I think it mush have amounted to several hundred people.
Q.Was Sauckel's representative in Paris subordinate to the Embassy?
A.No.
Q.To whom was he subordinate in disciplinary matters?
A.In disciplinary matters to the military commander.
Q.And from whom did he receive his actual instructions?
A.Directly from the General Plenipotentiary for Labor Procurement in Berlin.
Q.Did he ever receive instructions from the Embassy?
A.No, never.
Q.Could he have accepted such instructions?
A.No, he couldn't.
Q.What part did the Embassy play in the recruiting of French workers?
A.Insofar as it concerns voluntary recruitment I supported them up to the time when it turned out that Sauckel was breaking his contracts. Labor recruitment which went beyond a voluntary character I did not approve and I always tried to prevent it in as far as I could.
Q.But negotiations also took place in this respect between Sauckel and the French government in the Embassy building?
A.Yes, well, that's just the sort of case I mentioned before where, for reasons of protocol, the negotiations had to take place in the Embassy because the French head of government himself was taking part. Laval, incidentally, himself had also asked for it because he thought that if it took place in the Embassy I would support him against Sauckel.
Q.Laval hoped for this support?
A.Yes.
Q.What was the attitude of the Reich Foreign Minister to this attitude of the Embassy?
A.Naturally, for reasons of competency, he liked having the negotiations take place in the Embassy, but he gave instructions that I must not tkae a stand against Sauckel in the negotiations but on the contrary I must support him without reservation.
Q.Was Herr von Steengracht in any way concerned with these instructions of the Reich Foreign Minister?
A.No, they came directly from Ribbentrop.
Q.How did the French government react to Sauckel's demands during these negotiations in your building?
A.The French government offered very stubborn resistance to the recruitment of labor going beyond voluntary recruitment. It tried in any event to get German counter efforts from Germany, in particular, in the sphere of the liberation of PW's. For the rest it was trying to oppose Sauckel's recruitment with the proposal of sending French workers to S-concerns, that is, protected plants, and in these efforts they had some success,
Q.In these matters you just mentioned did the so-called Speer-Bichelonne agreement play any part?
A.Yes.
QWhat was the attitude of the German Embassy to these negotiations between Sauckel and Laval? Give us a practical example.
AWell, I can illustrate the way one such conference took place.
QYes, that is what we want to hear.
AThat was at a time just after 1943. In the first days of January 1944 Gauleiter Sauckel came to Paris in order to recruit 1,000,000 French workers by forcible measures, and have them taken to Germany. He greeted me with the words, "You, Abetz, have organized the resistance of the German agencies against this drafting of labor. This labor allocation is an order from the Fuehrer. In this matter some heads will still roll." I answered, "My name starts with the first letter of the alphabet, and I will be very glad to put my head on the scaffold first. I would much rather lose ray life than once give my consent to matters which are bad for Germany." I added, "If the Maquis ever sets up monuments in France, you will have the biggest, with the dedication, 'To our most importatn recruiter, Gauleiter Sauckel,' the grateful Maquis." Herr Sauckel thereupon got up, left the room,and slammed the door. Then General Blumtritt suggested that I should offer my hand in reconciliation, and I refused. Thereupon, he himself drove to the Hotel Ritz to Gauleiter Sauckel, but his attempts to bring him back were unsucessful, and further exchanges of opinion took place in writing.
QDid Sauckel ever complain to Hitler about this resistance you offered?
AObviously, because the next morning Ribbentrop called me up and addressed me in the most severe terms, to the effect that the Fuehrer was furious, and gave me binding instructions to support Sauckel.
QDo you remember from where Ribbentrop was telephoning -- from Berlin or field headquarters?
ANo, from Westphalia -- Gross S*einort, or whatever it's called. The field headquarters,
QNow, did you submit?
AHaving failed with open resistance, I took to a ruse. I tipped off the French government to suggest to Sauckel to draft four age groups, and with training personnel taken from a military formation, send them to labor camps, train them. First of all, assign them to purely French enterprises, and promise Sauckel that after some months he would obtain closed formations from those labor camps to the Reich. Sauckel was very pleased, and left Paris. That which was expected naturally took place. The Armistice Commission immediately objected very strongly, because it was obviously quite impossible, on the eve of a possible AngloU.S. landing, to have one million young Frenchmen in closed labor camps, surrounded by military squadrons in France. The discussion between Sauckel and the Armistice Commission went to and fro at lsome length, and lasted until June, and it is due to this circumstance that Gauleiter Sauckel received from this million of requested workers not one single man. But, I would like to emphasize right away that I carried out this act of sabotage because I was not convinced - I had an entirely different view of this labor allocation in the Reich than Gauleiter Sauckel, and I therefore considered it to be my duty as a German to prevent this labor allocation.
QDid Herr von Steengracht take the same sensible view in labor questions as you did?
AAbsolutely. We were entirely of one opinion.
QDo you remember the meeting of chiefs on 11 July 1944 in Berlin?
AIn the Reich Chancellory?
QYes.
AYes, I do.
QHerr von Steengracht, you and Rahn of the Foreign Office were present.
AYes.
QDo you remember what von Steengracht's standpoint was which he expressed in severe terms, and compared with Ribbentrop's severe instructions?
AI remember very well that Herr von Steengracht, Rahn and I had previously discussed the question and Herr von Steengracht took the standpoint that this must be prevented at any price that any further allocation from abroad into Germany take place.
QWere any such words used by Sauckel at this meeting as you mentioned about heads rolling?
ACertainly, not as far as the wording was concerned, but they meant the same. Sauckel stressed that these were Fuehrer orders that must be followed, and also gave to understand what the consequences of not following them would inevitably be.
QNow, I would like to put one question which seems important to me, and which I would like you to think over carefully. This was on 11 July 1944 - this conference of chiefs. After the conference, were any more instructions given to the Embassy on labor questions?
ANo, none. No more negotiations took place with the French government in the matter. Sauckel's representative in Paris, Klatzel, did however, receive from the Plenipotentiary for Labor in Berlin, an instruction.
QYou say Kaltzel. That was Sauckel's representative?
AYes.
QDid you receive any instructions from Berlin?
ANo, never.
QWere no workers at all drafted from France for labor allocation?
AAs a result of military developments, after the battle of Normandy, I pretty well lost sight of the question. I remember that I was told that Herr Kaltzel told the military commander and myself that he had received instructions, but neither the military commander nor I carried them out. Then later, after the retreat from France, I heard that in the front line area, at some points, French workers had still been withdrawn. But how that was done and at whose instructions I have no idea.
QAt any rate, you had nothing to do with it.
ANo.
QAnother question. In the labor question, did you exercise political or diplomatic pressure on the French government? We are still talking about 1943.
AOn the contrary, I was absolutely in agreement with the French government that this labor recruitment on a forcible basis was neither in French nor in German interests. That is why I also supported them when they tried to put a stop to the devastating consequences of this labor assignment, which only gave the Maquis more and more new recruits. I therefore also very much encouraged the Speer-Bichelonne agreement, a further agreement that there was a possibility of giving the plants in France more labor.
QWe now pass to another subject. What do you know about the shooting of captured Vichy soldiers by DeGaulle troops?
AThat became known very quickly in France, that members of the French Army, and of the Falangue Africaine, who fought in Tunis, had in part been captured by Free French troops, and sentenced to death by the latter. From a legal point of view, the Petain government was an illegal government, and the forces fighting the illegal government, that is those fighting for the legal government, were legal forces.
QWhat was the attitude of the OKW to these acts? Stop. I think we didn't make it quite clear. Could you repeat once again. In your opinion Petain was legal or illegal?
ALegal.
QAnd the DeGaulle troops were illegal at that time?
AYes.
QWhat was the attitude of the OKW to the DeGaulle troops? Did it state these to be illegal?
AThe OKW did not stick to the letter of international law, but issued a proclamation that it would treat the DeGaulle priosners as regular prisoners of war, and regarded them as such and would treat them as such.
QBut the Free French government did not take the corresponding standpoint?
ANo.
QWhat was the effect on the French population? What was the reaction in France?
AThe reaction in France, of course, was particularly strong, in those circles who had relatives among the Tunis fighters. The relatives of the Tunis soldiers had to fear that the French prisoners of war loyal of Vichy and even the members of their families might be murdered in concentration camps in North Africa.
QMay it please the Tribunal, I am afraid we won't finish now.
THE PRESIDENT:I take it you are suggesting a recess. We will recess now until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
Court IV - Case 11 Commission I Official transcript of Commission I, Tribunal IV, Case XI, in the matter of the United States of America against Ernst von Weizsaecker, et al, defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, 1 July, 1948, Commissioner Crawford, presiding.
THE MARSHAL:The Commission of Tribunal IV is now in session.
DR.MERKEL: ( Counsel for defendant Darre): I would like to call the witness von dem Bach-Zelewski to the witness stand now.
COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:The Marshal will call the witness.
(ERICH VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows):
The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will add and withhold nothing. (Witness repeated the oath) You may be seated.
The counsel may proceed with the examination.
DIRECT EXAMINATION ERICH VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI BY DR. MERKEL:
Q.Mr. Witness, I represent the former Reich Food Minister Walther Darre and I should like to put a few questions to you which clarify the relationship of Darre to the Party on the one hand, and to Himmler on the other hand.
May I first ask you to give your personal data for the record?
A.My name is Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, and I willspeall it: E-r-i-c-h v-o-n d-e-m B-a-c-h Z-e-l-e-w-s-k-i. I was born on the 1st of March, 1899, in Lauenburg, Pomerania.
Q.Will you please give us your original occupation and then the positions that you held within the SS?
A.Since 1930 I have been a member of the Party and at the same time a member of the SS. At the beginning I established the General SS in the area of Schneidemuehl and Frankfurt on the Oder, and since 1934 I was superior section leader (Oberabschnittsleiter) in East Prussia, Court IV - Case 11 Commission and since 1936 an Oberabschnittfuehrer in Silesia.
During the last war, more exactly since 1941, I was on the Russian front. I served first as Higher SS & Police Leader and later on as a combat commander and later on I was the commanding general of a Corps.
Q.Mr. von dem Bach, if I am correctly informed, you were also a practical farmer.
A.Yes, I am also a trained farmer. After the first World War I studied agriculture and learned it from the bottom, and I had a small farm in Landsbruck on the Warthe.
Q.Therefore you are familiar with the agricultural questions in the area east of the Elbe?
A.Yes, I am familiar with these questions.
Q.May I ask you once again, what was your office while you were in East Prussia?
A.In East Prussia I was Oberabschnittfuehrer, that is I was in charge of all the SS in East Prussia.
Q.Who at that time was Gauleiter in East Prussia?
A.The Gauleiter in East Prussia at that time was Koch, Erich Koch.
Q.Can you give us a short characterization of Mr. Koch?
A.Since I was constantly fighting against Koch and also instituted several police investigations against him, I know him very well. Gauleiter Erich Koch, in my opinion, was a completely amoral human being. He had a fanatic ambition. He in no way would refrain from using any means to extent his own power. He tried to put all State power in his own hands and did not refrain from using any means from achieving that goal.
Q.Mr. Witness, may I interrupt you? Will you please note the light?
A.In private life Erich Koch was completely corrupt, and he could be bribed.
Court IV - Case 11 Commission
Q.Therefore, I would be correct to state that he was corrupt, amoral, and a proletarian?
A.Yes, that is correct.
Q.That was the same Koch who later on developed a terror regime in the Ukraine?
A.Yes, that was the same man.
Q.At the time you saw yourself obliged to take action against Koch. What was your reason for doing that?
A.When I came to East Prussia in 1934 I was given documents about the corruption of Erich Koch and several of the Kreisleiters. On the basis of these documents, then, I instituted investigations and found these charges to be true. I then went to Goering personally and was first only successful in the fact that Koch was being released from his offices and that some of the Kreisleiters were arrested. That was the preliminary history of my battle against Koch. Because of this forced resignation, there was of course a terrific enmity by Koch against me, so that this fight then never cased as long as I was in East Prussia for two years.
Q.May I interrupt you? what was the attitude of Hitler in this conflict between Koch and you?
Court IV - Case 11 Commission
A.Hitler had Goering, Frick and Hess report to him about Koch, and after due consideration and examination he finally decided in favor of Erich Koch, and he said for foreign politic reasons, since, as he said, he could not possible afford to show up a Gauleiter as a corrupt man.
Q.Then the actual result was that Hitler decided against you and in favor of Koch?
A.Yes, that was the final result. I had to leave East Prussia in the final analysis while Koch was re-assigned to his office.
Q.Now, I turn to the point that I am especially interested in. Mr. Koch represented, in an unrestricted manner, the totalitarianism of the Party, is that correct?
A.Yes.
Q.Do you know what the position of Koch was in relation to the Reich Food Estate (Reichsnachrstand) which was the organization of my client?
A.After the failure of the Roehm revolt, and thereby after the strongest opposition within the Party had been uprooted, there was only one section within the movement which was outside of the totalitarian claims of the Party. That was the Reich Food Estate, Darre's organization, In East Prussia, too, until far into the years 134 and 135, the Reich Food Estate maintained its independence and was therefore in sharp contrast to Koch, who would not refrain from using any means to cajole the local farmers and to persecute them.
Q.Do you know that Darre wanted to carry out within the Reich Food Estate the principle of a professional autonomous self-administration?
A.Yes, I know that.
Q.Do you further know that this principle of professional autonomy was in sharp contrast to the totalitarian claims of the Party?
Court IV - Case 11 Commission
A.Yes, I know that, and that is also why some of the fanatic Gauleiters strongly fought against Darre.
Q.Then, in the early days of this fight, did you also come in contact with Darre?
A.Yes.
Q.What did you talk about with him at that time?
A.It is my duty to say that Darre saved my life at a critical point, and intervened on my behalf at a time when I was completely isolated in my fight against Koch. That was on the occasion of the Koenigsberg Fair, in 1935. Koch wanted to be able to report to the Fuehrer that on the occasion of the opening of this Fair Eastern Prussia was the first Gau which had finally .solved the Jewish question. Therefore, he had placed pickets in SA - and SS uniforms in front of all Jewish stores who were charged with taking pictures of all people that walked into these stores, in order to frighten the customers by the fact that their photographs would be published. When I found out about this at that time I realized that that was a completely illegal and terroristic measure. Therefore, on my own initiative I had these pickets arrested and confiscated the cameras. These measures that I took, of course, increased the tension between Koch and me to such an extent that he finally saw to it that on the occasion of the opening of occasion of the opening of the Fair to which I openly protested by leaving the Fair, upon Himmler's orders, I was arrested by Heydrich and was then brought to Berlin by special plane for a trial.
Q.May I interrupt you, Mr. Witness?
A.Yes.
Q.I would like to put a question to you at this point. When, on the occasion of the Koenigsberg Fair there was this well-known scandal, was that also published in newspapers abroad? Or was it publicized in any way so that the upper circles of the Party could have taken special note of it?
Court IV - Case 11 Commission
A.Yes, in this opening ceremony the representatives of the foreign embassies and legations were present, as well as the foreign press. And, therefore, this incident of course could be read about in the foreign press, and that of course made the tension of my situation much more severe since now it had become a question of prestige.
Q.Now, did Goering intervene in this controversy?
A.First, when Goering received Schacht's and Koch's report he took action against me. But later on, after I had been arrested in Berlin, upon the intervention of Darre he also intervened on my behalf with the Fuehrer.
Q.Did you then have conversations also with Darre?
A.Yes.
Q.What was the nature of your conversations at that time?
A.At that particular time I was in Darre's office once. I gave him a picture of the situation and emphasized especially the fact that Koch now apparently was using these terroristic measures to maintain and uphold the principle of totalitarianism of the Party. Darre then in rough outline told me the following. He said that I could count on his support in every way; he had already, as he said, given the order to Lander Peasant Leader Otto to support me in any fight against Erich Koch with all possible means. He strengthened my opinion more or less by saying: They start with the Jews and the next thing will be that the Reich Food Estate will have its turn.
Q.Did not Darre also say something like this, in East Prussia, a decisive battle in the political field was being fought?
A.Yes, his rather comprehensive statements were to that effect. Darre at that time realized that, there, in East Prussia the decisive battle was being fought for his agricultural organization.
Q.You have now described your conflict with Koch, the final result of which was that he won a victory over you.
A.Yes, that was the final result.
Court IV - Case 11 Commission
Q.You had to leave East Prussia?
A.Yes, I was on leave for some time, first of all, and then I was transferred to Upper Silesia, to the Gauleiter Josef Wagner.
Q.I now come to the second point, and that is the position of Mr. Darre as chief of the Race and Settlement Main Office SS. Do you know, witness, for how long Darre was chief of this office, approximately?
A.Approximately until 1938.
Q.Mr. Darre was full-time, of course, Reich Food Minister and Reich Peasant Leader. Was this office within the SS? was that also a full-time job for him, or was that a part-time job?
A.It was well-known at the time that he had this job only as a part-time job.
Court Ministries Commission
Q.Insofar then, that his position was different from the various office chiefs who were heads of their main departments as a full time job?
A.Yes. Without a doubt his activity was only a secondary one and it was well-known to allthe higher SS leaders that Darre did not bother very much with this Race and Settlement business.
Q.For the purpose of the record, may I ask that the word the witness just used, "laden", be used in the English translation.
What were the principle aims of Darre in his capacity as chief of the Race and Settlement Office?
A.I know from his statements that he wanted to have some support from the SS for his activity in the Reich Food Estate in order to find an organization out of which he could probably get settlers in order to pop ulate the sparsely settled Eastern territories.
Q.In order to clarify the record, may I ask you what provinces you are speaking about when you speak about the "sparsely settled Eastern territories"?
A.As was generally known in Germany, that country, to use a brief expression, was called East Elbia.
Those would be the provinces of Pomorania, Silesia, and Grenzmark, the border territory, and especially East Prussia.
The lifeblood of real estate was in the hands of large land holders.
In these provinces there was sufficient soil to create a blood belt of peasants that would live on the land.
Q.Was it well-known that Darre was an opponent of the big land owners?
A.Yes, that was well-known, and that is why he was severely dis liked in the circles of the big land owners.
Q.Do you perhaps remember a speech that he gave in Starkow in 1934, against the big land owners?
A.No, I don't know any details about it.
Q.Now, when you speak about settlement, you are speaking of Court Ministries Commission settlement within the meaning of an internal colonization?
A.Yes, an internal colonization, and a border area colonization.
Q.The so-called "Ordensgedanke" played a certain part in the SS. Would you please tell us something about that?
A.Well Himmler, from the beginning, did not really intend to create only a military organization, or an organization similar to a military one. But, the idea that he had in mind was to create, perhaps, an image of the German knight brotherhoods, who had colonized the German East to bring together a community of men who, for the time of their natural lives, and together with their families, would be members of this order which had, in the first analysis, as its aim, the common doctrine. The work in this order was, of course, divided into the various fields of work. All these individuals departments, however, were combined into the roof main organization of the general SS.
Q.Did the general SS, that is the Schutzstaffel, originally have anything to do with tasks on the police level?
A.No. It is probably well-known and it is also an historical fact that tasks of a police nature were relegated to the SS only after the failure of the so-called Roehm Putsch. Before that time, and perhaps also on purpose, on Roehm's initiative the SS and Himmler were supposed to be put beyond a police level and were supposed to be made powerless. Later on, after Roehm had been eliminated as an opposition within the party, Himmler automatically became the owner of this huge reservoir of power for the entire police. The old SS men, at that time, thought that the taking over of the SS by the police was more in the nature of treason to the ideas of the order.
Q.By that you mean that Himmler wanted to combine two thoughts that were as contradictory to each other as could be imagined?
A.I believe that for reasons of personal ambition Himmler committed treason on that only true idea as a gratification of his hunger for power.
Court Ministries Commission
Q.Is it correct if I say that originally this idea of the order could only have been held by a minority.
A.Yes. Any order must be based upon a minority if it does not wish to give up the whole organization of the order.
Q.And is it further correct if I say that originally the aims of this order were built upon efficiency and education?
A.Yes, of course due to the further development of the entire SS the original picture of the SS is rather distorted today. Even as an old member of the SS it is rather difficult today to think back to the fact that originally the SS was established in order to discipline undisciplined mass organizations, as, for instance, the SA. Today it is almost inconceivable that there was once a time during which the SS, within the Party, was thought to be snobbish reactionaries, and they were even called the new aristocracy in derogatory terms because they thought themselves too noble to take part in rowdy measures such as open fights in breaking up meetings.
Only when the State took over, only when the police took over, these aims were distorted which, at the beginning, I am sure were absolutely ideal by the forcible admission of professional creatures who, for any wage and salary, would take measures against anybody just as long as they were paid. In this case that was the so-called police.
Q.Do you know when Himmler became chief of the German police.
A.I believe that was 1934, but I am not sure.
Q.Well, as such, that was in 1936. But of course, you are supposed to answer from your own knowledge.
A.I think I am confusing it with the taking over of the Gestapo.
Q.Now, did Darre belong to the radical circles within the Party?
A.No, I do not believe there is any German who could possibly say that. Within the Party, however, he was always thought to be a representative of the right wing.
Q.Perhaps, so that the translation may be correct, you mean the Court Ministries Commission right wing within the Party, not the proletarian wing as I see it?
A.Well, I do not wish to say the proletarian wing because that has many connotations. I do not believe that there is anything bad in the expression "proletarian." When I say the "left wing" I mean to say the revolutionary wing, and when I refer to the "right wing" I mean to say the conservative wing of the Party?
A.Yes, definitely, within the Party.
Q.Do you know Darre's position in relation to leaving the Church and especially in connection with its present leaders?
A.In this particular point his position was abolsutely unapproachable. I know that Darre again and again told the peasant leaders not to make any sort of propaganda so that the people would leave the Church, but to remain within the Church.
He also gave his reasons for that. He always said the broad masses of the rural population could not be deprived of something without a substitution for this lack being made. Therefore most of the peasant leaders remained within the Church.
Q.Do you also know what sort of attitude the district and local peasant leaders had towards Streicher's journal, "DER Stuermer"?
A.Here, of course, I can only speak of the three provinces in which I knew the situation, that is, East Prussia, Brandenburg, and Silesia. I know that in those provinces it was prohibited by Darre, that is to say, by the Reich Food Estate, to publish the Stuermer as a tabloid in the office bulletin board of the local Peasant Leaders.
Q.With "bulletin Board " you mean that board upon which notifications were published?
A.Yes announcements and newspapers. Every local organization of the NSDAP, each SS and SA group usually had their own bulletin board on which all the official news were published. As, for instance, for the SS formations the Schwarze Corps was published in that manner. I know that Darre did not want his peasant leaders to publish the Court Ministries Commission Stuermer in this way.
Q.Now, would you say that Darre was an anti-Semite, or how would you characterize his attitude in that respect?
A.Yes, I am sure he was an anti-Semite.
Q.Do you know anything about the earlier ethnic Parties of Prussia? Would you say that he was anti-Semitic already then or was he an anti-Semite as understood by Goebbels or what would you say?
A.Yes, I would say he was anti-Semitic the way people belonging to the various Ethnic minority groups were which have always existed in Northern Germany, the German Ethnic Schutz & Trutz Bund Deutsch Voelkischer Freiheitsparte; or whatever they were called, but not like this extreme anti-Semitism which is practices here Southern Germany.
Q.Could you say that Darre was a man who was not above using force, or how would you characterize his general character?
A.No one could say that Darre was a man of brute force. Even though he probably does not like it, I would like to say that generally he was considered a rather weak person within leading Party circles. He was rather fearful person. He was not a fighter and frequently tried to avoid controveres and for the same reason was not a belligerent man.
Q.But you were describing your fight with Koch. Would you then modify your statement by saying that in various fundamental questions where things of his peasantry were concerned, he would not make any compromises?
A.That is a different thing. We started by talking about brute force. Here, of couse, we are speaking of the basic concept as to whether it is brute force or courage. Of course, unfortunately it is well known throughout the world that according to the experiences of the two World Wars the German soldier is the most courageous soldier in the world. But as for ordinary courage in civilian life, he is probably the man who lacks it most. So one could probably say there are two different kinds of courage. Before the enemy, the German is certainly Court Ministries Commission courageous, but towards authority and in representing his own opinion, we might call this courage in civilian life, that can only be found very rarely in the German, and I would like to include myself within this characterization.