A.Yes, I am in a position to answer this question, because in Marinec, and also in the area around Stalino I had the opportunity to talk to a number of people who were allocated to the mining industry in Germany. Later on they returned. Afterwards when the mining was restarted they returned
Q.Weren't you able to take out a bit of time from your business in order to make a telephone call to the Army five days prior to the date on which a final decision was made on whether to obtain the laborers and did you not in the telephone call to the Army work out arrangements with the Army as to the recruiting of such laborers?
A.That is possible. I don't remember it. I don't remember the details because it is an incident which did not move me very much nor did it interest me.
Q.Witness, you spoke this morning and referred this afternoon to the fact that the coal industry and industrialists generally had to take laborers, that they would be subject to danger if they did not take foreign laborers?
A.Yes, especially since if they had not done so they probably would have been told that they were doing this for purely egotistical capitalist reasons especially from the representative of the German Labor Front, Dr. Ley.
Q.Do you know of a single German industrialist who objected to the use of forced foreign labor?
A.Compulsory foreign labor? I must protest against this term. We did not regard it as forced labor and on the automatic developments later through the war situation in the West we had no influence at all.
Q.I will limit my question by leaving aside for the moment the question of the forced character of the labor. Do you know a single German industrialist who objected to using foreign labor?
A.If one of my colleagues had come to me and would have told me, "I am not going to employ foreign labor" I would have had him examined by a physician through comradly feeling. I do not know of such an incident at all.
Q.That answers may question. When German industrialists objected to an order of the Government authorities they knew how to sabotage such an order and they knew how to refuse to comply with it, did they not?
A.That I do not know. Sabotage activities, that I would like to state here once and for all, I did not have anything to do with. Criticism is another matter, positive criticism of constructive measures, but I never dealt with any sabotage.
Q.Did the Ruhr industrialists on any occasion receive an order from the Government authorities to destroy their plants and installations as a part of a "Scorched Earth" policy?
A.Yes, I did for mining because, and this was the first time in the Russian sector, I saw this tremendous effect and I saw what it meant if such an order was blindly followed and when in the end of '44 I heard about it for the first time from Speer I was so shaken that I did everything in my power to prevent such a measure and I went shortly before Easter to the Ruhr and I asked the responsible men for a meeting and we decided that the mines would not be destroyed in spite of any order that night be given and from there I went to Salzgitter to our holding enterprise and I turned over the whole plant undestroyed. I attempted to prevent a combat engineer officer who was just about to destroy a bridge which had no significance at all because all the tanks could just circumvent this bridge by a canal. Although I asked this officer not to destroy this bridge he did destroy this bridge because he said that he did not want to be shot just before the end of the war. That is how things were and I want to say here that quite consciously I was of the opinion that I can take the full responsibility before my own conscience and my Fatherland -I was not going to carry this out.
Q.Did you discuss the matter of refusing to obey the orders of the Government authorities with any of the Ruhr industrialists?
A.I made the explicit declaration that I would take the full responsibility for any such act and I did not want any explosives to be taken to the mines or from the mines because there were enough explosives there to blow up the whole Ruhr territory.
Q.Witness, my question is a very simply one, namely, this, did you discuss this matter with the Ruhr industrialists?
A.Yes.
Q.And the industrialist as well as you were in agreement that the orders should be sabotaged and should not be complied with?
A.Certainly.
Q.You mentioned a few minutes ago that you did not know of the forced character of foreign labor. Am I to understand that insofar as you had knowledge the foreign workers who came to Germany were voluntary workers?
A.As to what happened afterwards in the West, for instance in France, and in Belgium I know, of course, that labor there was procured on a nonvoluntary basis because I knew and esteemed General von Falkenau, who was the military governor of Belgium very highly, and whenever the word "Sauckel" was mentioned he had fits of rage but he was not in the position to prevent or obstruct such matters.
Q.However, labor in the East, do you know whether labor which came from the East whether that was forced or not?
A.I had heard rumors; I said so before. I had to depend on rumors and other information which could not be proved at all but I am convinced that as far as I know with Herr Koch it was more or less the same thing, not perhaps in the same way, not perhaps exactly the same, not forced labor, deportation perhaps, but anyway I cannot prove it.
Q.You discussed the matter with Sauckel, did you?
A.Yes, on many occasions, because we had to take the blame.
Q.And did Sauckel tell you that, "That is my business"?
A.Yes.
Q.You knew, did you not, that there was a tremendous number of foreign laborers in Germany during the war years?
A.Yes, I knew that there were many. I don't know what one would call a large number ; there were a few millions, yes. I would like to make it quite clear that in Watenstedt Salzgitter when the plants were actually erected that was in '38 and '39 I want to say that there were a number of foreign workers, about sixty per cent of foreign workers, even more perhaps.
Q.Witn the knowledge that there were a tremendous number of foreign laborers in Germany and having heard that laborers were being forced to come to Germany and having talked with Sauckel and having been told that, "That was his business", did you go away with the impression that the foreign laborers had come to Germany voluntarily.
A.Had I had the impression generally, I am now speaking about the later times, I would not have discussed it with Sauckel, Then, as I said this morning, I would not have spoken to the responsible men after Stalingrad as for instance to the finance minister, even to Dr. Goebbels, the propaganda minister.
As I said I would never have approached these gentlemen because it was not an easy thing for me to do and especially I would not have gone to see the Reichsfuehrer of the SS.
Q.Had you also heard about food rations being taken away from foreigners in occupied -- at least persons in occupied areas in order to force them to come to Germany?
A.Not in the West. In the East.
Q.In the East.
A.As I said, I had to depend on rumors. I want to emphasize this again, I had no possibility to check up on these matters my self because I only came to those territories where the armies of Mannstein and Kleist were active and that was in the Donez Basin.
Q.Witness, do you know whether the foreign workers who were in Germany, whether they wanted to come to Germany?
A.You mean during the beginning?
Q.During the war years, beginning in '41 and throughout the war period?
A.Until '43 a few months and even weeks after Stalingrad -- before Stalingrad, yes, but when the fortunes of war changed the attitude and the whole atmosphere also changed.
Q.During this period of time which I mentioned were these foreign workers able to change their jobs as they desired?
A.Not according to their own wishes. Nobody could do that in Germany?
A.Was it a sign of a voluntary worker that he came to a bomb-damaged area and where there were air raids?
A.At that time when they arrived in Germany from the East these areas had not been bombed and destroyed yet and I want to make it quite clear once and for all that in Salzgitter-Watenstedt I experienced a number of bomb attacks and air attacks, 20 to 30 of them myself, a place where 50 or 60 per cent of foreign laborers were employed. There was not a single case of sabotage of foreign laborers were employed. There was not a single case of sabotage whatever or any viciousness whatsoever, not a single one, but they all stood together like one man in an emergency situation.
Q.If they had wanted to leave, would they have been able to leave the area?
A.As I just sais a moment ago, nobody could do so, but through this fluctuation scheme which I mentioned before a number of people illegally changed their positions.
Q.Did not a great number of foreign workers also escape?
A.Whether you call it illegal or escape as you say, what I meant was that if they left the mine to go to their comrades in the country they would find employment there it also happened that a certain percentage a small percentage was brought back by a particularly active and proficient enterprise manager but that was up to this particular manager.
Q.And in his enterprising activities, did not the industrialist quite frequently make reports to the Gestapo and use the Gestapo in obtaining a return of the workers?
A.I know no industrialist who applied to the Gestapo for such action. The local manager on the basis of the rules and Police directives may have had the duty to report. Of course, if that is true then I don't blame any manager if he did that because even though I was the chairman of a subsidiary company, the general manager of the mines and a member of the Aufsichtsrat and if I had been told that the works manager has denounced to the State Police a workman who had changed his place of work, illegally, then I would have regretted it very much but I could not have reported the works manager because of his attitude to the State Police. After all that was a law which was a police directive.
Q.Well, as I understand, your testimony is that these workers, the foreign workers were not able to change their positions, they had to work where they were told and if they attempted to escape or did escape then they were forced back to the place where they had been working, is that correct?
A.May I say first that ifyou look at a statistical chart and you see the facts of the fluctuation and work out the percentage and if you also look at the fact that this is varied for all of the workers then you will find out that only a very small percentage is being discussed here. I am telling you that this term, escape is formulated with illegal change of employment only with the difference that the foreign worker because he was not tied down to his place of work by family or such considerations was not checked up on so severely by the State Police as the German worker was and the German worker certainly could not afford to do that.
Q.Is it not a fact, witness, that you on behalf of the RVK were constantly making demands for additional labor because of a tremendous number of escapes of foreign workers?
A.I have to repeat it you put the question in this particular form, I have to say that automatically on account of the order that the production must be increased under all conditions or at least maintained the counter-request had to be expressed that workmen must be put at our disposal; the necessary amount you didn't have to say; that they were aware of.
Q.I don't believe you answered my question specifically. Can you answer the question which I asked you?
A.Do you mean the fluctuation?
Q.I asked simply whether you on behalf of the RVK were not on frequent occasions requesting additional laborers for the coal industry because of a tremendous number of escapes of foreign workers?
A.The minutes of the meetings of the Central Planning Board show that clearly, but I don't want the context to be torn up because the request is based on such happenings or incidents.
Q.Witness, with regard to the BHO, when these properties were taken over they were taken over as property marshaled for the German Reich, is that correct?
A.I couldn't tell you even if I wanted to. I don't know the legal formulation; I am not a lawyer myself and I do not want to tell you about a subject which I know nothing about. It was my task to try to re-establish and reinstall the enterprises at the expense of the German Reich and to prevent the misuse of these enterprises in the interest of the Army and the population.
Q. DOI understand your testimony to be to the effect that jou do not know whether or not the German Government when they took over these properties asserted title to them?
A.The German Government? I may not have understood the question.
Q.Do you know whether the German Government in taking over the Russian plants and properties asserted title to such property at the time or in connection with the taking over of the properties?
A.That is possible, but that was not within the sphere of my interests whether the Reich said that this was her property or whether it said they are only using it. That was not within my sphere of tasks.
Q.You know, however, do you not, that the primary purpose in taking over the properties was the furtherance of the German war effort?
A.No, The main purpose -- I want to say this quite clearly too -- was to revive the completely destroyed territory as far as possible. When we had succeeded in achieving this aim of at least being able to cope with 10 percent of the output for a short time, doing very hard work, then you can imagine what a tremendous advantage the Reich this was. These enterprises you could not take from Germany, or from any foreign country, or from Russia. They were to be taken over, and they were going to be worked for the Wehrmacht and I am expressly stating that it was for the Wehrmacht and the German people. If you could see if the "scorched earth" policy would have been carried out in Germany as the Russians were practicing it what situation would have been created in Germany and what situation would have been found by the American Military Government. That was the problem which we were confronted with after all.
Q.And they were not to be operated for the benefit of the inhabitants of the occupied areas?
A.If I am to employ the population, if I give them work, if I give them bread on behalf of the BHO, we had to procure a great number of PX goods, clothing, and shoes which we transported into this territory, and we managed thus to employ large components of the population. I cannot remember the figures, but they are most considerable.
Q.Now, did I understand your testimony this morning or this afternoon to be to the effect that the Krupp concern was forced to take over BHO's sponsorships?
A.No, no, not by force. I made it their moral duty, but there is a tremendous difference when I say force referring to the Fuehrer, or Speer, or Goering, or Himmler, or whether I say, "I draw your attention to your moral duty."There is a distinction there which I would like to make.
Q.As a matter of fact, they were pretty anxious to get the sponsorships, were they not; and by they, I mean the Krupp concern?
A.As I said this morning in my examination, the GAH, the plant manager, was very interested in receiving the whole of Krematorsk, which was as big as Krupp in Essen. One plant manager wanted to deal with the entire area, an efficient, hard-working, and enterprising works manager. When the plant manager of Krupp was invited to the same place, of course, he developed the same ideas, disregarding the question the whole firm could deal with the demands. I don't think von Bohlen would have had the same idea on the matter. I must say I did myself. I developed the same private initiative for the concern of the Hermann Goering works as a private owner would have done.
I would have seen to it as Director of the Hermann Goering works that we would have obtained a large percentage of the enterprises in the Russian territory under our sponsorship.
PRESIDING JUDGE DALY:I think this would be a good tine to recess.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. III, Case No. X.
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session. BY MR. RAGLAND:
QAt the recess time we were discussing the motives of the Krupp concern in taking over sponsorships. You mentioned the fact that some plant managers desired to get the entire cake. Was it the plant manager or was it Alfred Krupp who protested so strongly when you attempted to take over -- to withdraw a sponsorship which had previously been given to the Krupp concern?
ADo you mean whether Krupp protested against that? I don't think I understood the question completely.
QDid you at any time threaten to take away a sponsorship from the Krupp concern?
AAs I have said airing this morning's session, General Stapf during an inspection tour complained that in Krematorskaja the representatives of the Krupp firm were not present for the sponsoring firm of Krupp, and that that was the reason which led to the Letter addressed to Krupp because two or three months after they had been given the sponsorship they had not even arrived there. The Army on its part insisted that they should eventually take over this enterprise and do some worrying and looking after it. The old smelting works had been given to Gute Hoffnungshuette, another unit had been given to the Reichsbahn, and the steel works unit had been given to Krupp.
According to the reports and the information I received from General Stapf, I did not think it was quite in order that so much time should go by before somebody should appear on the spot, and that is what led to the letter which I sent to Herr von Bohlelin.
QAnd who was it that responded to that letter, protesting the threat to take away the sponsorship?
AFirst of all it was the plant leader who later on was sent there because in the meanwhile the plant leader had arrived in the Ukraine, and any plant leader who takes over the management of a unit, of course, tries to maintain it and to fulfill his duties. After all, Court No. III, Case No. X.that is in the nature of any plant leader.
QDid you receive a letter from Alfred Krupp?
AI think I did. I probably think that was the case.
QDid he not, in that letter, protest the taking away of the threat to take away the sponsorship?
AYes, I assume he did. In my opinion, of course, it would have thrown a very disadvantageous light on the firm of Krupp if anybody says that sponsorship has been withdrawn because they did not fulfill their duty; and, of course, it is obvious that the representative of the Krupp film should protest against such a step. That is obvious.
QLet's consider sponsorships and activities prior to the date on which it was given to the Krupp firm. Are you familiar with the details concerning the taking over of the sponsorship of the Molotov Works in the Ukraine by the Krupp concern?
ADo you mean Mariupol?
QI am speaking of the sponsorship with respect to the Molotow Works.
AI can't quite make out where Molotow should have been. I can only remember the plant at Mariupol. Do you mean the plant in Mariupol?
DR. KR.INZBUEHLER:At Dnepropetrowsk.
ADnepropetrowsk belonged to Flick. He had taken over the sponsorship of Dnepropetrowsk. BY MR. RAGLAND:
QDid they take over the sponsorship of the Molotow Works which were in that locality?
AThe plant in Dnepropetrowsk was transferred to the Central Administration of Flick, the Mittelstahl and the Hermann Goering Works, under the condition that 50 percent should go to the Mittelstahl-Flick group and 50 percent to the Hermann Goering Works. The over-all management, however, was to be in Flick's hands, but Krupp had nothing to Court No. III, Case No. X.do with that at all.
That is what happened in Dnepropetrovsk.
QWell, how about the Molotow Works at Mariupol? That is the one of which I am speaking.
AYes, I think you are referring to Mariupol, and I had forgotten this name of the Molotow plant. Those plants had been transferred to Krupp, but before that a plant leader of the BRO was put in charge of these plants -
QIsn't it a fact and with respect to this sponsorship that the Krupp firm in the very strongest terms urged that it be given to the Krupp concern?
AI don't remember that. The way in which these individual industrial groups had taken over the obligation of that sponsorship and that everyone of them tried to get the most suitable working units, that, of course, was obvious; but we didn't take that into consideration. If I may give you an example. The smelting works Makijewka which was the largest plant -
QWitness, I think without going into other matters, if you don't know the facts concerning this matter you can say so; but maybe I can refresh your recollection of that, Is it not true that with respect to this sponsorship that once it was given to Krupp there was talk of a reversal and giving the sponsorship to other firms, and did not Krupp go to the Army and through the influence of the Army, was it not true, that through the influence of the Army it was able to retain this sponsorship?
AThat is quite possible, but I don't remember it. At any rate, it was never an outstanding occurrence, and I didn't concern myself with it very much.
QYou know whether in connection with this, what was termed this morning "the dreary business of sponsorships", whether or not the Krupp concern set up a special Berlin office?
Court No. III, Case No. X.
AI don't remember.
QYou are not familiar with that?
AI don't remember that.
QYou also mentioned plant managers who tried to get the entire cake. Do you know whether the defendant Korschan was one of these plant managers who wanted to get the entire cake?
AI don't think that Korschan was the plant leader who wanted it, but it probably was the plant leader who was paid by BHO and was responsible to BHO and received his instructions, but that was another man. He never played a part there, as far as I remember. Herr Korschan's task was to coordinate all the sponsored firms in that district, but he did not have any direct influence on the plant management or the duties connected with the reconstruction.
QAnd he went to Russia for that purpose, is that correct?
AThat is possible.
MR. RAGLAND:Mr. Mandellaub will ask a few additional questions on spoliation features. It will not cover the examination. We will not recover any ground.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER:May it please the Tribunal, I object to asking the witness questions on spoliation. This definitely was not the subject of questions in the direct examination, because that subject has been taken care of by the commission.
MR. MANDELLAUB:The witness has testified in direct on the activity of the BHO, and I think the questions which I am going to ask refer to BHO.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER:If they are BHO questions, then I have no objection.
MR.MANDELLAUB: (inaudible) ....BHO in connection with Krupp. Your Honors, with your permission I shall ask the witness in German.
Court No. III, Case No.X.
BY MR. MANDELLAUB:
QWitness, who was responsible for the distribution of the sponsorships in Russia?
AThe decisive approval had to be given by the head of the Economics Staff East, and that was General Stapf. He also decided whether any unit, any plant or whatever it may be, belonged to the BHO block or whether it would belong to the block of the processing plant. Stapf would also decide whether a plant was to be taken over by the BHO and managed under trusteeship.
QDid the distribution of sponsorships happen after the future sponsors had been consulted?
AYes, of course.
QWho in the firm of Krupp was asked about possible future sponsorships?
AI have already said this morning that I took Herr von Bohlen to Russia with me in order to point out his moral duty to him, that is, to support this assignment.
QDid you also negotiate with Dr. Loeser?
ANo, I only saw Dr. Loeser once in my life, and that referred to the Hermann Goering but nothing else.
QDid you discuss the sponsorship questions with Dr. Janssen?
ANo, I don't think that was a matter which would have concerned Dr. Janssen, because after all it wasn't a commercial matter; financial matters in this connection went to the treasurer of the Reich and it would have been asking too much if they had asked the commercial experts of the firms to cope with this question.
QDid BHO take over the management of manganese and ore mines in the East?
AThe iron ore mines were so destroyed that we never got anywhere with them, but the manganese ore mines had a very shallow Court No. III, Case No. X.depth, as I have explained this morning.
The deposit was only 30 to 50 meters below ground, and there we were in a position, by sinking now shafts, to start production with the help of machines imported from Germany.
Q was any iron ore obtained from Kriwoi Rog?
AIt is possible that we obtained some there, but whatever it was - - - - - -. A large part of Kriwoi Rog was taken to Germany, because just for that special purpose, we had special and clear instructions with regard to manganese ore. Those instructions had been given by Goering as the Reich Commissioner for the Four Year Plan, and the Fuehrer also had given similar instructions. The Army group, too, was made responsible for giving all possible support in the reconstruction of those mines.
QAm I correct in interpreting your testimony to the effect that considerable amounts of manganese and iron ore which were available when these territories were occupied were exported to Germany?
AI don't know what you mean by considerable amounts, because I couldn't confirm that. Surely, you don't think that a few hundred thousand tons of iron ore are a very considerable amount; whereas, for the manganese ore mined, we had to open up the mines again and then later on, after all we reached a production which amounted to 2,000 tons per day in raw ore. However, I would like to point out that we did so only for a very short period.
QWill you agree if I say that the metallurgical importance of the Kriwoi Rog ores and the Nikopol manganese ores was extremely important to the German iron industry?
ANot as far as the iron ores are concerned, because Germany probably had the metals at its disposal and it had the Swedish ore imports, and then we did not just export iron ore into Germany just for the fun of it. As far as transportation and shipping are Court No. III, Case No. X.concerned, that would have been too difficult.
QWhat about the manganese?
AI have already said about the manganese ore that direct instructions had been given by the Commissioner from the Four Year Plan, Goering himself, and that is what led to the fact that the engineers who were not fully utilized in Germany were sent to the Ukraine, because the Reich Marshal had more confidence that the state works, the Hermann Goering works, would carry out his orders more strictly than if he would use private industry for this task.
QWitness, may I ask you to be as brief as possible when answering my questions? How was the manganese ore distributed to manganese consumers inGermany?
AYou ask me too much there, because with the extent of my duties I really couldn't bother about such details. After all, you know that the Hermann Goering Works, the coal and chemical works .....
QYou don't know who received the manganese ore in Germany?
AYes, of course, the iron and smelting works industry.
QWho fixed the distribution quota?
AI don't know, you ask me too much there, but I assume that the Reich authorities in charge of such matters did that, or perhaps the Reich Association Iron, but I couldn't say for certain.
QDo you know the financial aspect of the distribution of manganese ore?
ANo, only insofar as the prices, and here I am speaking as a representative of BHO, that prices which were forced on us seemed too low for us.
QDid the price of manganese ore remain lower than the manganese ore prices were before the war in the world market?
AI don't know, but perhaps I may say that wasn't up to the individual entrepreneur because these prices were fixed not only for ore but also for coal, and if we had been given a true price for every ton of coal, that would have come to several thousand marks, because Court No. III, Case No. X.in the final analysis the State, who also gave the instructions what prices to charge, would take the loss.
QDo you remember that any manganese consumers ingermany protested against the delivery of manganese from Nikopol?
AI don't know why he should have done so.
QTherefore, he did not have to be forced to accept these manganese ores?
AWhy should he have been forced to take them?
Q.If a German manganese consumer had refused to accept the manganese ore from Nikopol, would you then have put him into a concentration camp or into a lunatic asylum?
DR. KRANZBUEHLER:I object to this question.
PRESIDING JUDGE DALY:The witness --
DR. KRANZBUEHLER:I object to this question. It has no practical significance, after the witness has said that no such case happened.
PRESIDING JUDGE DALY:You are asking him for his opinion, Mr. Mandellaub, aren't you, on a hypothetical question?
MR. MANDELLAUB:Yes, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGF DALY:Well, the objection is sustained.
Q.Did you ever threaten a German industrialist with concentration camp if he would not accept the sponsorhsip for a plant in the East?
A.We were on friendly terms, it was quite sufficient for us that such methods were used by Himmler and the Gestapo, we were quite satisfied to fulfill our duties the same way any soldier would do in the front line.
Q.Generally speaking, did you usually find a willingness to fulfill such a duty?
A.Well, some of them may have hesitated. It would have been a question of conscience with the individual, but I would like to say that at that time, we, or at any rate, I, as entrepreneur, did not know what I know today, that is, how the war came about. I considered it my duty to serve my Fatherland the same way as any soldier did in the front line.
Q.Have you seen an indication in the firm of Krupp, of a leading personality, to evade this duty?
A.In that respect, I can only give you a very interesting example. Herr Loesar (film unintelligible) , so I knew more about it than I did. From my own staff, Mr. Flottmann also was a of the 20th of July.
Q.I did not ask you about the 20th of July.