Transcript for NMT 8: RuSHA Case

28 Jan 1948_A_MSD_14_4_Cohen (Reischer)

QAs far as your knowledge reached, did the Lebensborn have anything to do with these transports?

ANo, it certainly had nothing to do with it.

QWhat else did the Lebensborn do in this matter of the children?

AAt the end of 1942, the expert female worker of the department foster homos and adoptions visited a Vomi lager near Regensburg in which the people of St. Veith, had been transferred in the meantime. This visit was made because of correspondence with the Vomi. This expert was supposed to inform herself at the spot which children were now to be transferred to foster homes and whether there was still a number of very small children which were supposed to be taken into a home of the Lebensborn on a temporary basis. Later on there was also a conference with the NSV in Berlin which also had something to do with the care of these children. At this conference also two gentlemen of the Vomi participated and on the strength of this correspondence we talked also about these children. I pointed out to those gentlemen once again, the Lebensborn could only take action if it would have the necessary documents for the finding of foster homes for these children. The gentlemen assured me at the time that they would take care of the procurement of these documents.

QWhat sort of documents did you ask for from the Vomi?

AWell, the birth certificates of the children, the death certificates of their parents, that is to say all these papers from which it could be shown whether or not these children were orphans.

QWhy did the Lebensborn not take over these children in it home simply upon the request of the Vomi?

AWe had absolutely on possibility of doing that, for there were only a very few places in the Lebensborn homes for children, and we really had no facilities for taking in children.

QThen what sort of agreement did the Lebensborn roach with the Vomi?

AAS far as I can remember, the children were to remain in the camps of the Vomi, until the Lebensborn would he able to make available some foster homes and a few children, which was assured to the gentlemen of the Vomi, were supposed to be taken into a Lebensborn homes because of better living conditions there.

QDid you at that time ask Herr See also for documents concerning the children?

QDid Herr See call these children "children without home ties" in the course of this conversation?

AYes, at least those children that were supposed to be transferred into the care of the Lebensborn.

QDid anyone tell you at that time that Lebensborn was also supposed to take care of children from Lower Styria?

QHow many of these children were in the care of the Lebensborn?

AI can't give any exact figures about that because I did not handle the details of these matters because at that time I was -my main activities were restricted to Belgium.

QDo you know what happened to those children that were not in the care of the Lebensborn?

AYes, the expert of the department foster homes told me that on occasion of a journey into this Vomi camp near Regensburg she had found out that most of these children had been placed in foster homes through the NSV.

QDo you know that Lebensborn cared for these families - for the children without family ties from Upper Carniola in the camps of the Vomi by sending them clothing?

ANo, I really can't remember because I didn't have any dealings with the matter.

QDo you remember that the Reich Youth Leader once asked the Lebensborn to be included in the care of youth, that is children from Upper Carniola and Styria?

28 Jan 1948_A_MSD_14_6_Cohen (Reischer)

AThat can he possible because I believe in the course of the conference at Berlin with the NSV somebody must have been there from the Reich leadership.

QHow do you explain that the Vomi asked the Reich Youth Leadership to contact the Lebensborn and not only that but to contact you personally, how do you explain that fact?

AWell, probably because I was in Berlin concerning this matter at the Vomi offices and also with the NSV.

QCan you still remember what sort of position the Lebensborn had with regard to the Reich Youth Leadership?

ANo, I don't know.

QThe prosecution has submitted a few documents which are referring to Romanian children or which are supposed to refer to Romanian children. In order to clarify the matter of your participation in this matter I would like to ask you the following: As a functionary of Lebensborn did you have any contact with the transportation of children from Romania to Germany?

QWhen did you find out about the fact that in 1941 children from the Banat were to be moved into a Vomi camp near Heidelberg?

AI found that out from an excerpt of a report by Dr Ebner about his journey there.

QWas it an excerpt from the report of Dr Ebner submitted here as Prosecution Exhibit 439?

QDo you know whether these children were transferred to Germany on the strength of a free agreement or the strength of an international treaty between Germany and Romania?

AI have no idea about that.

QAccording to your personal knowledge did Lebensborn take any action in the placing of these children?

AAs far as I know, three of these children were placed in foster homes.

QThen this whole matter is concerned only with three cases?

Court I, Case 8(Int.Reischer)

QWhen was that?

AAt the beginning of 1942.

QAnd in what manner did you learn of the placement of these children?

AWell, I saw the files.

QIs it correct that one of these children, Camillo Bohler still had parents?

QThen how can you justify the fact this child was placed in a foster home?

AThe parents of this boy with whom I talked myself and whom I visited in the foster home, wanted their child to be brought up in Germany since another son of theirs already lived in Germany.

QIn your affidavit Exhibit 414 you stated that in 1942 you made a trip to Romania on the orders of Herr Sollmann. What led up to this trip?

AIn the Spring of 1942 the district womens leader of Romania Dr Lydia Mueller visited the Lebensborn. I received the assignment to show to Doctor Mueller and several ladies who came with her the Lebensborn home in Steinhoering. We then stayed in Steinhoering a whole day, and the ladies were very enthusiastic about this home. When we returned to Munich, Dr. Mueller asked the boss whether he would not permit me to visit the women of the ethnic German group in Romania because these women wanted to have assistance in erecting one of those Lebensborn maternity homes there. The boss agreed to this, and a few weeks later I received an official invitation to go with Frauelein Meier, the secretary of the Chief, and I went to Romania.

QDid this journey have any connection with erecting maternity homes of the Lebensborn in Romania?

QWas it perhaps the intention that ethnic German children in Romania or German children who were to be born in these maternity homes were supposed to be moved to Germany?

QDid you ever have any contact with German or Norwegian agencies -did you ever have conferences concerning the transfer of Norwegian children to Germany or did you ever participate in such conferences?

QDid you yourself ever make a trip to Norway?

QDid you ever have anything to do in any other form with the transfer of Norwegian children to Germany?

QDid you ever gain any knowledge about the fact that Norwegian children were transferred to Lebensborn homes in Germany?

QDid you have anything to do with the placement of such children in foster homes, or regarding their adoption?

QDid you have any correspondence ever with the so-called "Norwegian Lebensborn"?

QIn Exhibit 17 you stated that you repeatedly made official trips into the occupied territories. Did these official trips have anything to do with the re-Germanization of children of non-German mothers whose fathers were members of the German military forces in the occupied territories and as asserted by the Prosecution.

QWere these official duty trips in connection with the re-Germanization of any ethnic groups other than German ethnic groups?

QDid you ever have negotiations with any agencies within or without the Reich because of re-Germanization of alien children?

QDid you ever gain knowledge of correspondence on this subject?

QDid you make an effort or did you get orders to make an effort to the effect that the Lebensborn be included in the distribution list of the agency from the OKW which was competent for such matters?

ANo, I don't know anything about such incidents.

QDo you know, upon whose initiative the letter of the Reich Fuehrer SS personal staff of 17 October 1942, Exhibit 446 was written? In this letter a request is made for inclusion into the distribution list and it is directed to the Reich Fuehrer SS personal staff office"L", to the attention of Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr Tesch?

QDo you still remember how often you received an assignment for official duty trips to the Gouvernement General.

AYes, perhaps three or 4 times.

QDid those official trips have anything to do with the transfer of children from the Gouvernement General, either ethnic Germans or Polish children?

ANo. In the course of these official duty trips it was always a matter of erecting or establishing a maternity home.

QWhen did you undertake the first of these official trips? Do you still remember?

AThat must have been about the middle of 1942.

QAnd what was the immediate cause for these trips?

AThe higher SS and police leader in Krakow wanted to establish a maternity home for ethnic German women. He therefore asked for the advice of the Lebensborn.

QIn your advisory capacity -- was it ever mentioned that children fathered by members of the German Wehrmacht in the Gouvernement General, that these children were to be re-Germanized and moved to Germany?

QDid you give a special report to Herr Sollmann about the result of this trip?

AYes, that was the usual procedure. We always did that.

QAnd what did Herr Sollmann say about that and what action did he take?

ANothing at first, and later on by request of Herr Krueger, Frau Merkel was assigned to go to Krakow in order to aid with the establishment of that maternity home.

QWho was Herr Krueger?

AHe was the higher SS and police leader for the Gouvernement General in Krakow.

QWhat was your assignment in connection with the appointment of Frau Merkl?

AI was supposed to accompany Frau Merkl to Krakau and I was supposed to introduce her to the agency there.

QHow long did you stay in Krakau at that time?

AIn the course of all these official trips I was in Krakau only one or two days each time.

QYou were in the Government-General a third time and how did that happen?

AThe Hitler SS and Police Leader Krueger had complained again and again that Herr Sollmann did not bother to see any person about the establishment of this maternity home in the Gouvernement General and had already complained to Himmler personally about that. Herr Sollmann, after several invitations, decided to go to Krakau himself. I was sent there one day before, in order to establish the time of the various conferences and in order to get him a place to stay.

QDid you take part in the conference Herr Sollmann had with Herr Krueger?

AYes, I was there and Frau Merkl was there too.

QDid you also have an active part in this conference?

ANo, the conference was only conducted between those two gentlemen.

QIn the course of this conference, was the question of re-Germanization of children of the kind already mentioned or their transfer to Germany or their transfer into special children's homes--was that mentioned?

ANo, the whole conference was simply about the establishment of one of the maternity homes.

QWitness, you at that time also made official trips to Holland, France, and Belgium. Can you please tell the Tribunal, when did you undertake the first of these official trips?

AIn about September or October 1942, I went for the first time into the occupied western territories.

QWas that your first official duty trip--that is, was it the first official trip that was undertaken into the western occupied territories by a representative of the Lebensborn?

ANo, in Holland as well as in Belgium a member of the office had been already present in an advisory capacity for the establishment of a maternity home. The gentleman on duty in Belgium was called into the Armed Forces, and that is how it happened that I had to make trips there more frequently.

Q when did you make your last official trip into the occupied western territories?

AThat must have been about July 1943. I can't remember the exact date.

QThen why were you no longer assigned later on to such official duty trips?

ABecause I resigned from my duties at the Lebensborn.

QWhat was the purpose of your individual trips into the occupied Western territories?

AI was supposed to act as adviser in the establishment of maternity homes.

QIn the whole course of your activities in the Lebensborn, as far as you know, was there ever a maternity home finally established in Holland?

QWas the Lebensborn supposed to establish these homes on its own account in these occupied western territories?

QBut in your affidavit, Exhibit 17, you were speaking about Lebensborn homes. Will you please comment on this statement?

AThese were not homes that belonged to the Lebensborn proper, but they were maternity homes which were to be established after the model of the German Lebensborn maternity homes.

QWhat were your assignments in the official duty trips you took to Belgium?

AThere too I acted as adviser in the establishment of a maternity home, and there too I inspected the applications of women for being received into such a home.

QWho established this home in Belgium?

AThe higher SS and Police Leader.

QDo you know upon whose expense this home in Belgium was established?

AAs far as I know, the Germanic regional office.

QIs this fact connected with a certain purpose which was aimed at the establishment of this home in Belgium?

AYes, this home in Belgium was designated especially for taking in the wives of Flemish SS men.

QDo you know where the Germanic district office had its headquarters and what its tasks were?

AThe Germanic District Office was in Berlin. I don't know the assignments in detail.

QDid you ever take part on behalf of the Lebensborn in conferences with this Germanic District Office concerning the establishment of homes or any other matters?

QDo you know anything about the fact whether other members of the Lebensborn had taken part in such conferences with the Germanic District Office?

QAs far as you know, how many maternity homes were established in the occupied western territories during your period of office?

AIn my time, the only home that was finished was the one near Luettich.

QDid you, yourself, make any arrangements on behalf of the Lebens born with the higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories or with any other agencies?

ANo, that wasn't necessary at all.

QIn the course of your official duty trips in the occupied territories or in your other activities at the Lebensborn, did you ever know about any cases in which racially valuable children that were suitable for re-Germanization were separated from their parents?

QDid you gain knowledge in the course of your official trips or in your activities with the Lebensborn of cases in which mothers and children, if the father was a member of the German Wehrmacht, were brought into the Reich?

AYes, I know of two cases in which the mothers and their children came from Belgium into Germany in order to marry the father of their children.

QHow much time was taken up by your official duty trips in the occupied territories?

AOh, about one week to ten days in each case.

QDid you not in one case stay in Belgium for several weeks? Why did you extend that stay?

ABy a change of personnel which I could not foresee, the home near Luettich, which had just been finished, was without supervision. Since a similar replacement could not be found so quickly, Herr Sollmann permitted me to remain there as director in this interim period.

QHow long were you director of this home?

AAbout four to six weeks.

QDuring this period of time, were there any children brought to Germany from this home?

AThe first children that were born there were only 8 to 14 days old and could not possibly be brought to Germany.

QWitness, in the course of your activities with the Lebensborn, did you ever gain knowledge of the decree of the Reichsfuehrer SS, dated 27 July 1943, concerning the treatment of pregnant female foreign workers and concerning the treatment of foreign female workers and their children bore in the Reich?

Did you ever find out about this decree?

QWhen did your duties with the Lebensborn stop?

AFrom the beginning of August 1943, I was no longer active.

QThat is to say, merely taking the time into consideration, you could not possibly have known this decree, isn't that correct?

AYes, that is correct.

QTherefore you also did not know of the decree of the Reich Minister of the Interior, dated 5 June 1944, which is Prosecution Exhibit 499?

ANo, because since the 21 of December 1943, I had no contact whatsoever with the Lebensborn any longer.

QIn the course of your activities at the Lebensborn, did you ever find out about the fact that alien eastern female workers had to give up their children forcibly, as far as they were racially valuable, and that the Lebensborn was supposed to take them over for re-Germanization purposes?

QDid you ever find out in the course of your activities that the Lebensborn either took over these children for education in home schools or acted as intermediary in placing them in foster homes or for adoption or had taken care of them in any other way--these children of female eastern workers?

QThat is to say that you never had anything to do with things of that sort, isn't that correct?

AYes, that is correct.

QFinally, the Lebensborn is charged with spoliation of alien property and especially of Jewish property, and the Prosecution charges you personally with participating in that. Let us first touch some general questions in connection with this problem.

During your activities with the Lebensborn, did you ever have anything to do with the procurement or readying of buildings for establishing homes, or did you have anything to do with the procurement of furniture for Lebensborn homes in the Reich proper?

A.- No.

Q.- Was such an activity ever part of your official duties?

A.- Procurement of objects or things? No.

Q.- In the course of your activities in the Lebensborn, did you ever receive an order by Herr Sollmann to procure buildings for the Lebensborn in the occupied territories so that a home could be established there?

A.- No, for Lebensborn did not establish its own in these territories.

Q.- In your affidavit, Exhibit 17, you stated that together with Frau Klipp-Merkl you had inspected various buildings in Warsaw and the eastern environment of Warsaw for the purpose of establishing Lebensborn homes. Who gave you the order to do that?

A.- Following the conference between Herr Sollmann and Herr Krueger, Herr Krueger gave him a list which contained several buildings which would perhaps be suitable for the establishment of a maternity hospital. The boss at that time gave us the order that we should inspect these buildings from that point of view, but I would like to add to that again that by Lebensborn homes I understood the maternity homes that were not owned by the Lebensborn in these territories but that were established there after the model of the German Lebensborn homes.

Q.- Do you know who owned the buildings that you inspected?

A.- No.

Q.- Were these buildings when you saw them -- were people living in them or were they used in some way?

A.- No, they were completely vacant.

Q.- As far as you know, who could dispose of these buildings?

A.- I don't know.

Q.- Were these buildings ever used for the establishment of maternity homes, from your own knowledge, either while you were with the Lebensborn or afterwards?

A.- No.

Q.- And on the 14 of September 1943 you reported to Dr. Ebner about the accommodation of children in the Warthegau. This report was submitted as Exhibit 632. What was your assignment concerning the placement of these children?

A.- At that time it was not yet a question about the placement of the children but it was at first a question of establishing smaller children's homes by the gau self-administration. I, as a. woman, was supposed to act in an advisory capacity and was supposed to advise them as to how this could be done faster and most efficiently. Lebensborn was supposed to get some beds in these homes for children from areas in which air raids were taking place.

Q.- Was this a question of placing Reich German children?

A.- Yes.

Q.- To whom aid these homes or these buildings belong? About which you reported?

A.- As far as I know, they belonged to the gau self-administration.

Q.- Were these homes or buildings used for the purposes described later on?

A.- No, I don't know, because that did not take place during my term of office.

Q.- In your affidavit, Exhibit 77, you stated that in 1942 a whole carload of textiles was consolidated from seized Polish goods which was then sent to Dr. Bartels for the clothing and care of Polish children in the children's home of the gau self-administration. Did you have anything to do with the seizure of these goods?

A.- No, here again I have to say that in the course of my interrogation I certainly did not talk about the equipment of Polish children, for after all the gau self-administration did not have any Polish children in their homes. If I say that this carload was sent to Dr. Bartels, I must mention that as far as the Lebensborn could see, the gau self-administration and Dr. Bartels were more or less identical.

Of course, I did not mean by that that we sent that to Dr. Bartels personally, but I meant that it was the competent department within the gau self-administration and the children's homes of the gau self-administration which received these goods.

Q.- Well, did you have anything to do with the seizure of these goods?

A.- No, I don't even know for sure whether they were seized. I rather think that they were put at the disposal of the Lebensborn from some sort of source.

Q.- Who, according to your knowledge, owned these goods when they were put together for sending them to the Warthegau?

A.- The Lebensborn.

Q.- According to your knowledge then, did any one at the Lebensborn have any doubts about the fact that the Lebensborn had a right of disposal over these goods?

A.- No.

Q.- Did you, yourself, have any sort of doubt in the lawfulness of the property of the Lebensborn?

A.- No.

Q.- Who gave the order that those goods were to be put together to be sent to the Warthegau?

A.- The boss did that on the request of the gau self-administration.

Q.- Witness, did you got anything from any part of these goods that were stocked in Bromberg, for your personal use; that is, any sort of textiles: linens, beds, curtains, carpets, and even textile material for the making of clothes? Did you over buy any of that or receive that for your disposal?

A.- No.

Q.- Witness, you have a fur coat?

A.- Yes, two.

Q.- Do these fur coats or does one of those fur coats that you possess come from the Polish stock of goods?

A.- No.

Q.- Did you ever buy anything or got anything from furniture stocks which the Lebensborn received from Holland and which were stocked up in Munich at the Hermann Schmidtstrasse? Did you ever get any furnishings for rooms of any sort or any single pieces?

A.- No, I had a completely furnished apartment before I came to the Lebensborn.

Q.- The Prosecution has submitted an affidavit Brandmaier wherein Brandmaier states that he has brought into your apartment furniture from the Lebensborn. Will you please comment on that.

A.- After I was arrested by the Prosecution in my apartment in Isabellastrasse 13 in Munich, they would have had to ascertain that Herr Brandmaier brought these things into my apartment at Kurfuerstenplatz 1 in which I was no longer living since 17 February 1942.

Q.- Witness, in the course of your examination today, you stated repeatedly that you were not in a position, when you made your affidavit, to make objections to the version of your words which the interrogator put down. Will you please tell us in what sort of a condition you were at the time and why you couldn't object?

A.- Because of a rather serious illness, which befell me about June 1947, I was sent to the hospital. On the 30 of June I was called out of the municipal hospital in Nurnberg and was called for an interrogation in the afternoon. My state of health was so bad that I was not in a position to hold the pen in order to sign those affidavits. I also pointed this out to the interrogator and he gave me a block in a very kindly manner so that I could try out whether I could really write my name, because I was in such a weakened state from this stay in the hospital since one had more or less dragged me from my bed right back into prison.

Because of this fact I was not in a position at all to correct all these details in such a manner as would have been necessary in order to prevent misunderstandings, and after that I asked that I be given a copy of this affidavit so that I could comment on it in some way, but unfortunately this request was not granted. Only in a few cases in which the misinterpretation jumped at me when I read it through, only in those few cases, did I have the opportunity of making corrections. However, since I really would have had to change the whole formulation of this affidavit, I gave up making any further objections. I did not know the purpose for which these affidavits would be used later on and therefore I am very unhappy about the fact that I did not have any more energy at my disposal for objecting against it because today these affidavits are used, to extradite people that I have mentioned in these affidavits to Poland. For instance there is Dr. Ducker. In the affidavit, in which I mentioned him, I did not add that these ethnic German women and children were for recreational purposes in his home from 1939 until 1942, although I emphasized that. I think in the course of my interrogation I was not asked this or interrogated about it any more, whether or not the formulation in these affidavits were all correct, but one simply informed Dr. Dueker of the fact on the strength of the Viermetz affidavit he was to be extradited to Poland. The man has four children and what it must mean to be extradited to Poland today certainly everybody knows and the same is true in the affidavits in which I talk about Dr. Bartels as representative of them Reich Commissar. In my interrogations I said again and again that I certainly did not have any interest to find them out in detail but at the time, because of my state of health, it was not possible for mean to go through with my objections, and two days later I was served my indictment and certainly it was utterly impossible to undertake anything in this matter in the first week and especially since I saw copies of this affidavit only for the first time again, when they were submitted here by the prosecution.

Q.Were you told, witness, for what purpose these affidavits were COURT I CASE VIII to be given?

A.In my first interrogation, that was March 1947, one made an appeal to my human feelings and asked me if I would make clear all my assumptions and my faults about this matter and tell it to the gentlemen so they could find the children. At that time obviously one knew exactly, that I would never keep quiet about any facts that could be of importance in the finding of these children, and that is why I stated a lot of assumptions and why I pointed out a lot of ways in which these children could be found. Afterwards, of course, I knew that one was not at all interested in finding the truth, but that one wanted to confuse everything because of these assumptions that I voiced.

Q.No further questions, thank you.

THE PRESIDENT:Any other questions on the part of the defense counsel? Since those cross examinations are limited to thirty minutes we will not break into the recess but will recess now until 3:15.

(A recess was taken)

Transcript for NMT 8: RuSHA Case

Defendants