Q.Witness, what was the main factor, the main deciding factor, in judging whether or not the Pole was racially qualified? Was it the decision of the RuSHA field leader?
A.Well, according to the judgments which I saw myself, and I worked on three cases myself, one could understand that the judgment of the Race and Settlement Leader of RuSHA was the one that was decisive. The chief on the superior level however, was in a position, by showing additional points, to fight against that judgment. In other words, he would have been in a position, under circumstances, to have such death sentences cancelled.
Q.Witness, returning for a moment to the extermination of the Jews, in connection with RuSHA, do you know whether RuSHA maintained card files on Jews of mixed blood?
A.Yes, that was known to the entire leadership corps of the SS that in Berlin RuSHA had a card index for Jews and that would give information on each racial consistence of a group or an entire family. It would give information from centuries back.
Q.Did questions arise in the extermination program as to how a Jew of mixed blood, 75% or 50% Jewish blood, for instance, was to be treated?
A.Yes, indeed. That was very important. That was very important for the entire racial regulations whether a man was half Jewish or one quarter Jewish. That could be seen from the index cards.
Q.Do you know whether these RuSHA card files were used to establish the degree of Jewish blood of some particular person and thus determine his fate under the extermination program?
A.I know from speeches by Reichsfuehrer Himmler personally that, for instance, based on those files, this card index for Jews, the preliminary work was done by the Security Police prior to the entry into foreign territories, that is to say, before invading the Protectorate, Czechoslovakia, or before entering Austria or Poland. The Security Police, based on those card indexes, had already taken the necessary steps in order to be able to hit hard and fast.
Q.Witness, did you know the defendant Hildebrandt, Richard Hildebrandt, personally?
A.Yes.
MR. SHILLER:Will the Tribunal please ask the defendant to stand?
(Hildebrandt stands.)
THE PRESIDENT:Let the defendant stand. All right. BY MR. SHILLER:
Q.Is that Hildebrandt?
A.Yes, yes, that is Hildebrandt all right.
Q.Witness, do you know anything about the defendant Hildebrandt's activities as Higher SS and Police Leader in the District Danzig, West Prussia?
A.I know tha t Hildebrandt was the Higher SS and Police Leader in Danzig. I know that he had a policy of his own which was the policy of the Reich Leader which was opposed to the policy of Gauleiter Forster. I furthermore know, from the trips which I took in western Prussia, and also from the letters and the correspondence which I received from my parents, exactly what Hildebrandt's activity was, what his work consisted of.
Q.Witness, as Higher SS and Police Leader, do you know whether or not the defendant Hildebrandt put any COURT I CASE VIII persons Into concentration camps for refusing to register in the German People's List?
A.Yes. A Catholic priest von Zelewski, upon Hildebrandt's instigation and demand, was sent to a concentration camp. The Reichs Fuehrer-SS personally showed me that application.
Q.Witness, do you have any knowledge in connection with the defendant Hildebrandt and the s o-called euthanasia program?
A.In 1943 I visited Neustadt in Western Prussia which is called Vajhorovo in Polish. I visited that place where I spent my youth in a gymnasium there and in this connection, or while I was there, I visited the Lunatic Asylum there which was in Neustadt, Western Prussia, and I found out that in the past years, upon Obergruppenfuehrer Hildebrandt's request, all the insane persons had been evacuated for the euthanasia program.
Q.- Your Honor the Prosecution has no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Any cross-examination by the defense. BY DR. HAENSEL (For the Defendant Greifelt):
Q.- May I continue your Honor? After 1940 as you stated yourself you had been appointed deputy Reich Commissar for the Strengthening of Germanism of the Reichsfuehrer Himmler. Where was your office at the time?
A.- At Breslau.
Q.- Didn't you have to have an office for your functions in Upper Silesia?
A.- I stated before -
Q.- What was the name of the agency?
A.- The Reich Commissar for the Strengthening of Germanism. It was signed with large letters just like all the other agencies, for instance with the RuSHA Police Leader, Reich Police Leader SS and the other was the Reich Commissar for Strengthening of Germanism and that's all.
Q.- Those instructions which you just mentioned, what was the channel of command from which they came? Did they come to Breslau or Kattowitz?
A.- I am sorry; it is impossible for me to remember all that. I was in charge of three corps and civilian army units. Am I to remember every detail? In any case they were never sent to Breslau. They couldn't have been sent to Breslau because I had no office of my own there.
DR. FROESCHMANN:Your Honor, the translation of the remarks of the withess does not work. What my colleague says can be understood but the witness can't be understood. It has been that way for about ten minutes. I believe the channel is out of order. I will appreciate it if the Tribunal will issue orders that this be corrected.
Mr. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I don't think the channel is out of order. I think if the defense counsel and witness would take it a little slower and give the interpreters an opportunity to translate every thing would go along all right but the give and take is a little bit too fast.
THE PRESIDENT:Can you hear now?
DR. FROESCHMANN:No, I didn't understand that. I am sorry your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Can the defense counsel, only the defense counsel try your head phones and indicate whether you can hear the translation or not.
DR. HAENSEL:I can hear it.
THE PRESIDENT:Is there anybody that cannot hear it?
DR. HAENSEL:Your Honor may I listen to the whole thing with my ears? BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q.- I am terribly sorry that these channels are all stuffed up and particularly in such a moment when the witness is ready to make a few statements from his own memory. Witness, we spoke about the list, and also the signature of your agency in Kattowitz and I would appreciate it if you could tell me again what your answer was, perhaps you would tell me slower and in such a way and manner that we can understand you.
A.- Among 15 other titles which I had I wrote the title under all 15 of them. Still I couldn't answer what the address was at that time. You know it was very, very complicated at that time. However, if you were to ask me where this mail was sent to before asking me what the letter head was like, then I would tell you it was sent to Kattowitz to the agency there. In Breslau I simply had a little home with my little family and I didn't have to deal with State matters in my little home.
Q.- Let's get back to those 15 other titles; you told me you had 15?
A.- Yes, in the course of the war, yes, yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Go a little slower and stay in front of the "mike" please.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q.- I am now referring to your function as SS Police Leader. You must have had a great big field of tasks which you had to deal with regard to the Reich Commissar.
A.- As a Higher SS Leader I was not necessarily a Police Leader but the Higher SS Leader.
Q.- I am terribly sorry; the titles are very complicated.
A.- Yes, there was a higher Police leader, yes, yes, Mr. Defense Counsel.
Q.- Now, as to the extent of your work how would you separate the work which you did for the Reich Commissar and all the other functions you performed in your capacity of Higher Police Leader. Would you say one-tenth, one-quarter, one-half, or what, approximately?
A.- I didn't compile that in percentages.
I was in Upper Silesia only for five days; that's all.
Q.- Now, you received instructions from Himmler, did you not; also in your capacity as Higher SS and Police Leader or did you only receive them in your capacity as a representative of the Reich Commissar from Himmler himself?
A.- Well, I received orders from the main offices depending on whether it was the General SS because after all I was in charge of 40,000 men in Silesia; there were all sorts of subsidiary tasks.
Q.- Do you understand -
A.- - yes I understand. On the question of the Prosecution before I stated from Himmler personally; I did not receive any instructions in this field of tasks but those instructions came directly from Greifelt.
Q.- How far did you assume that those instructions of Himmler's were from Himmler himself?
A.- Yes, yes, of course, they had been issued by Himmler; I stated that before, naturally.
Q.- If they did not come from Himmler but only from Greifelt then they would have made the same impression on you?
A.- No, of course not, because the Reich Commissar was Himmler and no one else. He was the so-called State Minister -
THE PRESIDENT:You will be compelled to talk at one time if you expect the translator to get it all. When a question is asked the witness will please not answer the question until it has been translated and when the witness gives an answer counsel will please not propound another question until the answer has been translated.
DR. HAENSEL:We will soon learn that, Your Honor. I am quite sure. BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q.- Witness, you stated that the first few weeks of your work for the Reich Commissar for the Strengthening of Germanism were more or less of a theoretical nature. What was the extent of this theoretical work you mentioned?
A.- Mr. Defense Counsel first of all let me give you a differentiation on the different things. I would like to point out to you that the Chief person at the time of Silesia, at the time, was Josef Wagner. He and his entire staff all lost their lives on the 20th of July.
A.- Well, I am talking about the resistance; you remember that attempt on Hitler's life.
Q.- Does it have a date?
A.- Yes; 1944.
Q.- That happened on that date in 1944?
A.- That is quite correct; that is quite correct, quite correct.
THE PRESIDENT:Both counsel and the witness will have to slow up or we will not get this testimony in the record.
A.- Mr. Defense Counsel, let me finish my statement. It was my first sentence. There are more to come. I had to point it out because at the time he was relieved from his duties, this man Wagner, he was released in particular because he worked against this Himmler policy in Upper Silesia.
This whole matter only took shape when Bracht became Gauleiter who was one of Hitler's men. Therefore, that is a personal point because a man like Bracht never did collaborate with the representative of Himmler like Greifelt. That was the reason there were so many conferences with all the persons participating in this, even down to the farmer who had to administer the country and even down lower to the agency who had to carry out those orders. All those negotiations took time in order to result in anything.
Q.- Now, witness, let us now try to reconstruct the whole thing. Let us go to the place you mentioned before. Saybusch. When I say Saybusch, then I am referring to the estate.
A.- When I spoke about that I did not speak about the estate but I spoke about the area there.
24 Oct 47_A_PM_17_1_Love (Int. Simha)
Q:And in this conversation which took place you were shown plants and plans and is that correct?
A:Yes, I was shown those things all the time; Greifelt only came not on one occasion but came to see me all the time at Kattowitz and the Staff leaders came to see me a few times a week, even came to our place in Berlin; that was nothing but a shuttle service.
Q:Where were these maps worked out; in Kattowitz or Berlin?
A:The great planning was carried out in Berlin; however the local planning or mapping as far as that area was concerned was carried out in Kattowitz.
Q:How then did you know that Greifelt was there right often. Did you actually concern yourself with this work which was being carried on in Kattowitz; were you interested in it?
A:No, I was not there to deal with those things and was not there to be interested in it. I stated before that I became the representative then. Of course, I was a representative of the representative of the representative. It was not up to me to deal with those things but the staff leaders had to deal with those matters, the business managers and so forth. Do you understand me?
Q:Yes, I understand that you were the Higher SS Police Leader?
A:Yes, absolutely and once in a while I had to Inform myself about what matters were.
Q:You were more or loss the boss around the house, weren't you?
A:Well, actually I was the boss around the house at all times.
Q:I understand of course, that is what I wanted to point out. Well then a plan was set up to resettle the place down 24 Oct 47_A_PM_17_2_Love (Int.
Simha) there. Did you see the plan before?
A:Surely.
Q:Did you agree with it?
A:Well --
Q:Do you understand?
A:Yes, of course; of course.
Q:How was it actually put into practice? You say the people were expelled. In othe words people who lived in those homes were simply asked to leave. Is that it?
A:Well, I mean after all I didn't follow each policeman to whatever house he want to. That was up to the Field Police down there.
Q:Why excellent, excellent, and all of a sudden we are in connection with constables and that is what I wanted to point out. Who forced these people to move out of their homes if they didn't want to go?
A:Oh, I know what you are trying to get at, Mr. Defense Couns l but the Higher Police leaders who were not in change of the police at the time unfortunately. That was after 1941 during the Russian campaign.
Q:Mr. Witness, I don't have anything against you. What I want to know is to whom was the Police subordinated?
A:To the Landrat or then to his superior who was the Oberpraesident--
Q:Let's go a little bit higher -
A: --- Yes and Higher Police Leader was in charge of all the sections of the SS but he was not in charge of the police -
Q: ---- Let's go a little bit higher up, witness. Who was in charge of the Police, higher up.
A:The Minister of the Interior, that was not Himmler at the time yet, Mr. Defense Counsel; it was Himmler later on. I 24 Oct 47_A_PM_17_3_Love (Int.
Simha) mean I told you all that, didn't I?
Q:It says there RSHA. What is that?
A:Reich Security Main Office.
Q:In other words that had something to do with the police? --
A:Only with Security Police and not with the constables.
THE PRESIDENT:The witness and the attorney will please slow up and stay in front of the "Mike" and when those lights flash that means Slow Up. BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q:We were now speaking about the police and I believe that you wanted to tell me about those various levels, that the police authority was not the office which was subordinated to Greifelt?
A:Yes, that's right; I understand.
Q:Yes, of course, did you ever see such an expulsion order?
A:Yes indeed.
Q:Do you know who signed it.
A:Greifelt.
Q:Whom was it sent to?
A:To the Staff leader, to the agency. In other words to Mueller Altenau und Arlt.
Q:Then what happened, the people were expelled?
A:The people were expelled.
Q:Who told them to move out?
A:I don't know; that is asking too much. I was not in charge of the technical work; therefore, I could not tell you the details and all those things. I can't tell that, you see. Emphatically speaking it did work out that the Landrat passed on the order through the Police after the Commission had 24 Oct 47_A_PM_17_4_Love (Int.
Simha) fixed the plan locally. In each case, you see, Mr. Defense Counsel, not only in Kattowitz there was a Commission which would work exactly according to Greifelt's instructions. Everything was contained in there, the Landrat was mentioned there and it was stated there, the man of the Security Police were in charge, etc. etc. etc.
Q:Now, will you tell me, witness, perhaps your memory will start jumping again and ticking, do you know anything about the policy with regard to alien races? Do you understand that word? It is Fremdtumspolitik in German. Does it make something click in you?
A:No, it doesn't.
Q:Do you understand it when I way Volkstumspolitik. That deals with the Germans, doesn't it?
A:Yes.
Q:And the Premdtumspolitik does not deal with Germans but with alien races. Do you understand now?
A:Yes.
Q:You spoke about a commission and in this commission you mentioned a few people who undoubtedly were not subordinated to Greifelt's agency and I mentioned the alien policy to you?
A:Yes.
Q:And I wanted to have you tell me that the RSHA, Reich Security Main Office, played a large part in those matters. Can you tell me anything in connection with that.
A:Mr. Defense counsel, I am sorry; I can't say yes to that. After all I simply can't stand here and watch how one agency passes the buck to the other because only one main office will be held responsible for the whole matter and that is the Greifelt Main Office and all the other ones of course did act accordingly and they followed his instructions but there was only one responsibility which could be held and that was by the Office Greifelt.
Q:Witness, that is a conclusion you are enjoining. You have to work along with us and cooperate with us and tell us facts. You know we want facts, that's all. However since we are speaking about offices and so on please do take a look at that chart up above; you will find Himmler and then on the next line you will find a series of offices.
A:Uh huh.
Q:The man in charge of that, or the man who drew up those charts drew a horizontal line and not a diagonal line.
A:That is the way it should be - on the same level.
Q:Quite so; isn't that your opinion?
A:No; it is not right.
Q:And RSHA is not under the Staff office but on the same level.
A:That is correct.
Q:Well you see we have to agree on that.
A:Yes.
Q:You spoke about the DVL, the German People's List, do you remember that?
A:Yes.
Q:Do you think this DVL, this German People's List, did not become practical in Silesia; it wasn't carried out?
A:Yes, I said that while I was there; it was in the beginning; I couldn't tell you for the entire period of time.
Q:Can you recall since you know about the other Districts what are the Gauleiters and so on; can you recall if the handling of the DVK varied and also the time in which it was introduced varied?
A:Yes, that is quite correct.
Q:Do you remember the decree by the Ministry of the Interior, this great decree--
THE INTERPRETOR:I am sorry, your Honor, it is absolutely impossible to follow these two men at the same time, especially when they are talking so rapidly, at the same time.
THE PRESIDENT:I wouldn't think it would be necessary to constantly warn both counsel and the witness not to talk at the same time and not to talk so fast. This examination will be useless if it does not get into the record and surely counsel wants it in the record. BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q:We were speaking about the German People's List, what I wanted to ask you was whether you read how this German, Peoples List or, DVL was established. First of all, tell me whether it started in the individual Districts when such administrations were carried out, not very systematically but carried out anyway and later on the entire system was introduced or can't you answer my question.
A:Mr. Defense Counsel as far as I can recall it worked in the following manner. The DVL was ordered from up above, but down below when this chart appeared all the Gauleiters down below tried to interpolate and make valid their opinions because they did not all agree with that and an Army did not agree with the way in which the groups were being set up.
Q.Do you know whether in the DVL there was a compulsion to register; I mean was it contained in the decree?
A.Let me think for a minute; well, let's see. I believe as far as I can remember -
MR. SHILLER:Your Honor, the Prosecution would like to object to the Defense Counsel asking the witness with respect to the contents of the decree.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, it has been stated in rather plain language by the Tribunal several times that you would not go into the contents of the decree.
DR. HAENSEL:Yes, Your Honor, I understand, but you see sometimes it might be important to find out just what a witness knows about the decree; it could be that I am right; may be you are right, but that is not the contents of the decree.
THE PRESIDENT:You may ask if he knows about the existence of a decree but not about the contents. BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q.Witness who was compelled to register the DVL as you mentioned; and who carried out the measure?
A.Mr. Defense Counsel, in order not to duplicate our work here, after all the question is not how it was formulated, but the results are in question here. That such a DVL existed, there is nothing else but a compulsion. After all, Mr. Defense Counsel, place yourself in our position, we who are along the border line; the fact that the DVL was there was a compulsion for us to register if we wanted to live or we would lose our lives or our homes or whatever there was. All the other things are formulations that you are asking me about.
Q.Excuse me, witness, that is quite correct, but the question is whether the DVL, Point III or IV, was to be applied under certain persons that after all was dictated by some one in particular, and that is what created the compulsion; isn't that correct?
A.Mr. Defense Counsel, please don't make my position as a German citizen any more difficult. I was very clear and I don't wish to be clearer than that.
Q.Witness, you stated that your family had been living in western Prussia for many centuries.
A.Yes.
Q.Therefore you and the other inhabitants repeatedly changed masters, as one would say; isn't that correct?
A.Yes, quite so.
Q.But in spite of that you consider yourself a member of Germany.
A.I wouldn't know, Mr. Defense Counsel, if a man, say a fifteen year old boy volunteered to fight against Russia; if a man received all those medals during the war; then today you don't have the right as a German citizen to ask me all those things because I have several decorations and I won several of them in this war.
Q.Witness, you don't my story and I don't know yours; so that is the reason why I wish to develop the whole thing here; and the Tribunal knows it even less than I do. We are here in this struggle for the People; you have been in that struggle since you were ---
THE PRESIDENT:Let's not have any more argument between the Counsel and the witness. Let's get down to the facts in this case. Your feelings are not of interest to the Court at all.
Q.Therefore you changed masters repeatedly, as we said before.
A.I didn't say that.
Q.The country is what I mean. Would you tell us how many centuries these struggles can be traced back. Will you say one century; is that about right? Which century ?
A.Well, it starts with the first century; actually with Henry the First.
Q.Give me the time.
THE PRESIDENT:The translation people are not getting what you say. You are wasting your time and breath talking without any record being made. If you want this evidence to appear in the record, you will have to conduct your examination in such a manner so that it can be heard and translated.
MR. SHILLER:If Your Honor please, the Prosecution wishes to object to Defense Counsel going back for several hundreds of years relating to matters which are not charged in the Indictment.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, I fail to see how that illustrates any facts which the Tribunal is called to pass upon in this case. BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q.Witness, did you object to the measures or did you have anything to do against those measures which were told you by the office of Greifelt; for instance, concerning this resettlement. Did you pretest in any way?
A.Mr. Defense Counsel, you as a lawyer will probably know that it is proved here very clearly; for instance, let me remind you about the Government General which Sauckel testified and their families; and let me remind you of my attitude in the Slavic *---* question. May I point the book to you which is called the persons who were not linguists; it was a book which was published in Warsaw.
Q.Let me tell you something, witness; I mean after all this is not a private discussion, and all those questions are only put in order to inform the Tribunal. After all, my opinion does not matter at all, but what the Tribunal thinks, what the Tribunal understands from our conversation is what counts here. You remember this Saybusch action, don't you, witness; do you know what the term was; disposal of the people to be expelled; when did they have to leave?
A.They had to leave the same day.
Q.And how was it with the racial examination that you mentioned?
A.I stood, it was together with Greifelt, separated from several chambers where they had to walk the gauntlet; you could see them walk the gauntlet in alphabetical order, and I saw that myself and every one was examined there, the entire population.
Q.And this examination was carried out by the Race and Settlement examiners; is that correct?
A.Yes.
Q.And they decided on that and they made their decisions public?
A.Well, I don't know whether they made it public, but they received some forms; all those forms had been prescribed for it, far up above; they were nothing but forms which came from the higher levels; and everyone in Germany knows these thousands of various forms which existed.
Q.Where were these people sent to first?
A.First they were sent to collective centers; I know before that they were sent to the Government General.
Q.And those Race and Settlement examiners then went to RuSHA; is that it?
A.Yes, approximately; of course all directives concerning how they had to carry out the resettlement were received from RuSHA. They didn't receive the job order from the RuSHA as they couldn't tell this one is going to be such and such a racial examination.
Q.Now, as far as your personal relationship is concerned with Greifelt, I would like to ask you, witness, you are an old SS leader, aren't you?
A.Yes.
Q.Is Greifelt an old SS leader?
A.According to his rank, no; he is nothing but an opportunist to come up.
Q.Did that play any role in his position, I mean.
A.Well, he was just an SS leader.
Q.And the other Gauleiters and Stathalters which you mentioned in the Warthegau, Forster or Greiser, for instance, and all these, what was the relationship there ?
A.Greiser from the SS point of view was also an old SS man.
I mean there is no certain type; Mr. Defense Counsel, you don't understand me; you don't know how the whole thing worked.
Q.I am not speaking about promotions here, Witness, but I am simply speaking about the possibility of having his role go through.
A.Of course, Mr. Defense Counsel, a Gauleiter from a power point of view is more like a main office chief of the SS, if he has a will of his own, but, Mr. Defense Counsel, Greifelt did not issue orders from the Gauleiters, but he simply gave the order to the representative of the Reich leader who happened to be Gauleiters; it wasonly in that capacity that he had the right to issue orders only in his own field of tasks; otherwise, he had no right at all to issue orders.
Q.The question, however, is whether if he issued an order and if the Gauleiter did not like the order, he Greifelt, had the possibility to enforce his will.
A.Well, it depended upon the position at the time whether Himmler or the Gauleiter in charge was more powerful and it depended entirely on the time.
Q.And now of course you are on Himmler's level, aren't you? You are in Himmler's level, aren't you; Greifelt was alittle lower down.
A.Yes, Greifelt was Himmler's representative. After all, he did not of his own wish issue orders; he only complied with Himmler's wishes. Himmler and Greifelt were one and the same person as far as that went.
Q.But even that was not such at all times, was it?
A.Well, if Himmler wasn't there; well, no, not always.
THE PRESIDENT:We will suspend here to take our fifteen minutes recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT:Let's start this session by going slow.
DR. HAENSEL:We always start with the best determinations in the world, Your Honor. BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q.Herr von Bach-Zelewski, do you know anything of the HTO--the Main Trustee Company, East? Did you know anything of this company during your activity?
A.During my activity? No. But I know that it existed in the East and afterwards in Russia, in the Government-General.
Q.In direct examination you said something about industrial enterprises.
A.Yes.
Q.Do you know that the HTO exercised control over these industrial enterprises?
A.Yes, that was well known.
MR. SHILLER:If Your Honor please, the Prosecution feels that the defense counsel is now going beyond the scope of the direct examination. The HTO, for instance, was not brought up during the direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT:I will see how far it goes. Go ahead. BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q.Therefore, was the authority of power of Greifelt's agency in essential poings limited, in connection with the question as to how and for what purpose the disposition of properties was carried out?
A.I don't know. I have no idea nor knowledge. I don't know what was the economic effect of this. It went over a number of years. I know nothing about it. This involved a number of years, and God knows I had other worries.
THE PRESIDENT:It is necessary to caution the witness again to talk into the microphone, and please talk slowly.