THE PRESIDENT: In the last sentence in paragraph five appears the affidavit as originally prepared, quote, reading the last sentence: "I can recall meeting Dr, Mrugowsky in the home of Dr. Ding, on one of his many visits to Buchenwald." The word "many" is eliminated by a line having been drawn through it and in the margin following that line appear your initials "Dr. Hn". Does that to you indicate that you objected to the word "many" and asked that it be eliminated?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And it was eliminated and you initialed the margin to show that you had asked that it be eliminated, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Referring to paragraph 11, that paragraph begins; "In some instances I supervised the killing of these unworthy inmates by injection of phenol," Following the word "phenol" appear in handwriting the words "at the request of the inmates". Your initials, "Dr. Hn", follow that addition. Does that to you indicate that you requested the addition of those words "at the request of the inmates"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It then appears, witness--- Just a moment, there is another addition. At the close of paragraph 2, the last line reads, referring to yourself: "And remained under arrest until 12 September 1944." The affidavit was originally written with that date "until 12 September 1944"; that date was changed in handwriting to 15 March 1945. Is that the correct date when your arrest was terminated, 15 March 1945?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: That addition in handwriting is followed by your initials, "Dr. H.". Does that indicate to you that you corrected the affidavit by asking that the correct date be added?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you remember that you were requested to initial with the words "Dr. H." or Dr, Hn." every page of this affidavit?
Every page of this affidavit, as shown in the photostat, at the bottom of the page appear the initials "Dr. Hn.".
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Those were your initials and you initialed every page?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do not the facts which I have just referred to indicate that you read this affidavit very carefully?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it was read aloud to me and I followed it, as I said on Saturday.
THE PRESIDENT: Does it not indicate then that you paid attention to it when it was read to you and considered the language of the affidavit carefully and made corrections, which you felt were necessary in order to make the affidavit complete and correct?
THE WITNESS: I do not believe, Mr. President, that I read it very carefully. I made these corrections, just the ones that appeared to me and came to my attention, this date for instance.
THE PRESIDENT: Does it not also indicate that the person who read you the affidavit was anxious to have the affidavit prepared exactly as you wished it by adding corrections which you suggested?
THE WITNESS: As to the word "friendly" I objected and no changes were made. This is on page 3, the sixth line from the top; it says "very friendly". I objected to that for "Zweckfreundschaft".
THE PRESIDENT: But other suggestions which you made were followed, were they not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Does it occur to you now, or did it occur to you then, that if there were any words in the affidavit, which you did not fully understand, that the meaning would not have been explained to you?
THE WITNESS: No, I cannot say that. I think the reason was I should have demanded that I be given the affidavit to study it carefully and would be given enough time to read it through. It was possibly my fault;
I failed to make that demand. I had the impression that the man who was making the affidavit was in a great hurry; he kept offering me the fountain pen, and that is why I signed it. Perhaps I was a. little careless. It wa.s also a fact that my interrogator had the impression from what I told him that I spoke English and after a few days he gave me a part of the affidavit, my life history, in German, not in English like this affidavit, but in German. There it was discovered that, although I read the English version of the affidavit before, I saw so many mistakes when I saw it in German that we had to rewrite it.
THE PRESIDENT: I will ask the secretary during the recess to procure the original of this affidavit. I assume it is available in the office of the Secretary General. I would like to see it.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for the defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, I ask that the Tribunal excuse the defendant Pokorny from attending this afternoon's session so that he may prepare his case.
THE PRESIDENT: At the request of the counsel for the defendant Pokorny, the defendant will be excused from attendance before the Tribunal at this afternoon's session in order that he may consult with his counsel in preparation for his defense.
You will return to the secretary the original affidavit and the photostat copy. Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. When did you see what the affidavit that you had signed really meant?
A. I saw its precise meaning when it was read into the record. Counsel, I should like to state that on Saturday when the Tribunal asked me to pick out the specific words that I had not known the meaning of, I interpreted that task very strictly, and chose only those words the meaning of which I had not known at that time, and those regarding which I felt any doubt at all, I assumed that I did know the meaning.
Q. Now, you said here that you didn't know the meaning of the word "affidavit". Did you then know what significance this paper that you signed had?
A. I don't believe I knew very well what I was signing, otherwise I should have had it put to me in German.
Q. You have now stated in paragraph number 6, in the second sentence, that you didn't know the meaning of the word "frequently". What you wanted to say was "I discussed the problems with Ding," or rather as it stands in the document, "I frequently discussed matters with Ding."
A. Yes, that is so. It is true that I did not discuss these things frequently with Ding because Ding very soon saw that I didn't know very much about them, nor did they interest me.
Q. What do you have to say about the next sentence. It also says in that same sentence we just mentioned, under number 6, that you visited his experimental station from time to time.
A. Yes, that is so, I did that. Frequently I visited the experimental station.
Q. What was the purpose of these visits?
A. My workshops were there. Moreover, I inquired as to the welfare of the prisoners who were accommodated there.
Q. Please take a look at number 8, which concerns itself with the selection of inmates for the experiments, and please describe now what your activities were in the selection of the experimental subjects.
A. You mean I shouldn't correct the errors in this point 8? I shouldn't discuss this paragraph number 8?
Q Yes, of course, you should and set the matter straight.
A The Gestapo did not or the camp leaders undertake the selection of the experimental subjects. One day a representative of the foreign political prisoners came to me and I was told that there were political prisoners among the experimental subjects, They asked me to see to it that these persons should not be used in the experiments. I think there were two or three prisoners in question. I then went to the SS office, I don't know whether this was the Camp Commandatur or the Gestapo Department. I went to whichever it was. I went to the SS man who had the list of intended experimental subjects and told him that these foreigners, in other words, these prisoners in question were not really suitable subjects.
Q Is it true that because No, 8 contains a lot of words you don't know that it here says something you didn't mean to say at all?
A That is so, but aside from that I had the feeling that the interrogator or the translator did not understand me correctly or did not translate correctly because I never said I selected the prisoners. I did say that the prisoners had asked me to intercede.
Q Now take a look at the sentence that has Schober's name in it and tell us what was his activity precisely?
A It was Schober who wanted to include the political prisoners in the experiments. He was inclined to cross, it says here, he wanted to climate the political prisoners from the list and put in professional prisoners and criminals but it was just the opposite what he did.
Q Please take a lock now at No. 2. To what extent is No. 2 actually erroneous and to what extent does it need further elucidation?
A In October 1939 I became assistant medical officer in the SS hospital but in the Buchenwald concentration camp that is not quite correct because the SS hospital had nothing to do with the concentration camp.
Q What should be differentiated between here?
A The concentration camp is to be kept separate from everything that existed outside of the protective custody camp.
Q Where was the SS hospital?
A It was outside.
Q And as Assistant Medical Officer in the SS hospital whom did you have to treat?
A The SS guards.
Q And did you have anything to do with the concentration camp?
A No.
Q Did you ever enter the so-called protective custody camp?
A No, no one could, because you needed a special pass to do that and only the camp doctors had it.
Q Now take a. look at No. 3. To what extent does No. 3 need to be explained or corrected?
A The same is true here. "Due to my various positions in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp during this period of nearly four years I became acquainted with all phases of the medical activities therein and am hereby able to make the following statement." That is not true, four years, it began in January 1941.
Q And when did it end?
A On the 12 day of December, 1943.
Q What did you become then?
A Then I was taken prisoner by the Gestapo.
Q I come to another point now, other experiments, did you know that in Block 46 experiments were being carried out with yellow fever, paratyphoid, A and B, typhoid, diphtheria, small pox and so forth?
A No.
Q The witness Kirchheimer testified here, page 1325 in the English Transcript, that in Block 46 there were also experiments with yellow fever?
A Of that I know nothing.
Q I shall put document No. 571 to you, Exhibit 285, page 13, correction, page 14, document book 12. These are only reports. From the entries of 10 January and 24 March you can see that other experiments were carried out in Buchenwald. Did you in any way participate in the yellow fever experiments carried cut on 425 experimental persons?
A No.
Q Did you hear anything about those experiments?
A No.
Q Did you select any of the subjects?
A No.
Q Who did?
A I cannot tell you of my own knowledge.
Q Who carried out the experiments?
A I assume it was Dr. Ding.
Q Did you carry out experiments in typhoid and paratyphoid?
A No.
Q Did you select the subject for them?
A No.
Q You know Exhibit No. 265, Ding's diary, did you see this diary during your activities in Buchenwald?
A I did not know the thing existed.
Q When did you first see it?
A During this trial.
Q Was one of the experiments mentioned here carried out by you?
A Not one.
Q According to this diary, page page 48, document book No. 12, from the 19 to 25th November, 1943, four persons were experimented on with incendiary bombs. Where were you during that time?
A I was under arrest by the Gestapo?
Q According to the diary there were also two poison experiments carried out. Where were you at that time?
AAt that time I was also under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q Did you take part in the phosphorous incendiary bomb experiments?
A No.
Q According to Kogan these experiments were carried out in the spring of 1944. Where were you then?
AAlso under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q I shall put No. 571 to you, exhibit 285, page 15, in the document book 12. According to this document a gangrene experiment was carried out on 15 experimental subjects on the 8th of November. Where were you then?
A In the Gestapo jail.
Q How about the blood plasma experiments which Kogon says here were carried out in January, 1944. Where were you then?
A Under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q What do you know about the transfer of blood experiments?
A Nothing, because I was in the Gestapo jail at that time.
Q Do you know Dr. Rose?
A I know Rose was in Buchenwald but I cannot recall ever having seen him there.
Q Were you the doctor who conducted Rose through the experimental station?
A No.
Q Did you ever participate in any way in the experiments in Sachsenhausen which took place on the 26 October, 1944?
A No, I was in the Gestapo jail at the time.
Q Did you cooperate in Vernet's experiments?
A No.
Q Where were you when they were being carried out?
A In the Gestapo jail.
Q Did you have anything to do with the Ellenbeck experiments?
A No, I was at that time in the Gestapo jail.
Q Mr. President, as my next document I shall put in the affidavit by Reinhold Schittenhelm, it is Hoven document No. 14, pages 16 and 17 of the English document book, to attest to the credibility of this affidavit and to prove Schittenhelm has the necessary knowledge I direct your attention to the first paragraph of the affidavit. Let me point out Schittenhelm is a French citizen who was arrested for espionage in 1940 in France and was placed before a German court martial, Exhibit No. 3, your Honor, and that from January 1943 until his liberation by the United States Army was an inmate in the concentration camp. In other words this man is a person who would have no inducement to protect an SS doctor.
Q. (continued) This French citizen, Reinhold Schittenhelm, says under No. 1, to which I draw your particular attention:
"The experimental persons for Block 43 were not picked and decided upon by Dr. Hoven but by the prisoner's Camp management. I can affirm to this for the period since January 1943. At least once every week the senior block inmates were called to the office. The senior block inmates then decided which prisoners in Block 46 were to be used for experimental purposes."
From the next paragraphs it can be seen how the affiant has this knowledge.
Then as my next exhibit I out in the affidavit by Heinz Schaeuble. This is Hoven Document No, 19 and this will be Exhibit No. 4. This is in the Supplementary Volume.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I don't have the Supplementary Volume at my disposal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Supplement was furnished to the Tribunal Saturday. There mast be a copy available for you.
MR. HARDY: I have one now, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. To prove the credibility of this person and to prove that he has the necessary knowledge for answering the question I point out that Schaeuble from 11 of December 1949 until 1 October 1943 was an inmate in the Concentration Camp Buchenwald. He says under No. 1:
"I knew that persons used in medical experiments wore not selected by Dr. Hoven but by the SS-camp-management.
My knowledge is based on the following personal experience:
In February 1943 I was selected by the SS-camp-management as a subject for medical experiments. I presume that the for which I had been chosen was to be carried through in block 46.
It was Dr. Hoven's doing that they were prevented from carrying out this experiment on me."
This is to prove that Hoven kept persons other than betrayers and stool pigeons from being used in the experiments. Nos. 2, 3, 4, and 5 describe Hoven's general reputation and good character. Please let me say in this connection that I consider this material and refer particularly to Winthrop's Military Law and Precedence, page 350. This proves that it is imporobable that Hoven did what he is charged with.
I come now to 14-F-13 action. Did you know of it?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you first hoar of the action 14-F-13?
A. At the end of 1941.
Q. Who told you about it?
A. The camp commander at that time of Buchenwald, Koch.
Q. What was his reason for doing so?
A. Koch called all the heads of departments to him and told them about the 14-F-13 action.
Q. Were you then head of a department?
A. No.
Q. Who was?
A. My boss at the time, Dr. Max Blancke.
Q. Who else participated in this discussion?
A. The chief of the Gestapo department, the work assignment leader, the chief of gardening and construction.
Q. Why did you participate in this discussion?
A. I can't say for what precise reasons Dr. Blancke took me to this discussion. At any rate on this occasion Koch told us of the proposed action 14-F-13.
Q. What did ho say?
A. He said that in tho next few days a commission of doctors would come from Berlin to Buchenwald. This commission of doctors would seek out the cripples and tho mentally ill. Moreover all Jewish inmates here at Buchenwald were to be included. These prisoners were then to be assigned to various transports and killed. Where this was to take place was not made known.
Q. How many 14F13 actions were carried out at Buchenwald?
A. While I was active there only one.
Q. I put to you the fact that the witness Mennicke has testified that twice, namely in the autumn of 1940 and the autumn of 1941, ho was in Buchenwald. This is page 1883 of the English record. What do you have to say about that?
Q. Whether he was in Buchenwald in tho autumn of 1940 I do not know since at that time I had nothing to do with concentration camps but was assistant doctor for the camp doctor. But, I do know that at the end of 1941 a commission of doctors was in Buchenwald to carry out the 14F13 order.
Q. Did you bring about the filling out of any questionaires for the carrying out of this action 14F13?
A. No.
Q. Were any questionnaires for 14F13 ever sent to you?
A. No.
Q. Did you select prisoners for the 14F13 action?
A. No.
Q. Dr. Kogon said that the 14F13 action was done through the prisoners' hospital. This is page 1211 of tho English transcript. What do you have to say about that?
A. I don't believe that at that time Kogon knew anything precise at all about this action because the only person who told tho prisoners anything about this action was I. I told the leaders of the illegal camp management and a few liaison men of the Jews whom I was in steady touch with.
And, I told my secretary Rudolf Gottschalk. For two reasons these persons told no one else about the action. First, because they would have more than endangered their lives and secondly because they knew it would mean my certain death because there was a secret order from Himmler that whoever informed a third person of the 14-F-13 action was to be shot within 24 hours. For all these reasons Kogon could not have known about that action at that time. Aside from the SS officers who attended that conference no one from the SS either knew anything about the action because this special security order of Himmler kept the 14-F-13 action strictly secret. Moreover Mennecke knew more about this than Kogon. While Mennecke was in Buchenwald he drew up a detailed written report of his activities in Buchenwald and sent it to his wife. In this letter ho said nothing to the effect that his work had been supported by me or by any other doctor or any prisoner nurse. In view of the detailed manner in which he described his activities in Buchenwald he certainly would have mentioned a fact of such importance as that.
Q. I have just been told that apparently a mistake has been made by the interpreter. You said that at the end of 1940 you were assistant doctor with the troops, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That was translated as assistant to the camp doctor.
A. There is a great difference there.
Q. Perhaps you had better explain that difference.
A. The assistant to the camp doctor is an assistant to the camp doctor, namely the concentration camp doctor. I was assistant doctor for the troop doctor, the man who treated the SS troops and units.
Q. Do you know Dr. Mennicke?
A. I cannot recall ever having seen Dr. Mennicke in Buchenwald.
Q. Let me out his testimony to you, page 1897 of the English record, in which he says that he greeted you once. What do you have to say about that?
A. I have no doubt that Dr. Mennicke greeted me because my boss never got to work before 10 o'clock. For that reason I believe that Mennicke's testimony here is correct and no greeted me as Dr. Blancke's representative or deputy. Officially though I had nothing to do with him. I did not meet him privately either although he was in Buchenwald for several days.
Q.- Mr. President, as my next document I put in Hoven Document #6, Exhibit 5, this is page 23. This is a document that was put in in another trial here, a letter from the IVth of the Franckfort Court. The year seems to be missing from the date, but it can be seen clear-ly that the date is 1947. That can be seen also from the certification. I put this in to prove that the entire selection of the prisoners in Buchenwald was carried out by Dr. Mennicke alone without the assistance of no camp sectors and, particularly, without the assistance of Dr. Hoven.
I put Roemhild's testimony to you. Roemhild said that in Autumn 1941, all the Jews in Buchenwald were examined by the doctors to see whether they were capable of work and ix they were not they were sent to the political department, and in the Spring of 1943, three or four transports left. This is page 1635 of the English transcript. Is that so?
A.- No, Dr. Mennicke corrected that. He also knew more. There are today only a few prisoners who know about this and Roemhild is certainly not one of them. Roemhild left the following out of consideration. The order read explicitly "All Jewish prisoners are to be taken for the 14F-13 Action." Thus, a medical examination become or Dr. Blancke would not have been necessary. Moreover, why should they be examined? The important thing was not whether the Jews could work or not, but it said there unmistakably that all Jews in Buchenwald were to be taken for this action. Mennicke has already stated that he filled out the questionnaires of this sort by the thousands, but Roemhild was only a clerk from 1943 on and cannot know of his own knowledge what he has said. He is simply reproducing a camp rumor. Four transports were to leave, but only one did.
Q.- Where did it go to?
A.- Subsequently, I found out from the prisoners that the transport went to Bernburg on the Saale.
Q.- Why did the other three transports not go?
A.- Because I, cooperating with the illegal camp management and the political prisoners and the Jews, prevented that.
Q.- Tell the Tribunal how you, in cooperation with the illegal management, prevented those transports from leaving?
A.- After the conference with Koch at which I first heard of the extermination action which later came to be known as 14-F-13, I immediately got in touch with the illegal camp management, particularly with the Jewish liaison men, and my secretary, and I told them of what the action 14-F-13 intended. We consulted with one another and debated what we could do to prevent this action. These discussions occupied a considerable time. In the meantime, the commission of doctors turned up. The Jewish liaison men and I agreed with the illegal camp management that part of the endangered Jews should be classified as mason's apprentices and I took the necessary measures with this in conjunction with the work assignment leader. I told him that many of the Jewish prisoners were excellent skilled laborers. As Dr. Kogon has very correctly stated, there were conferences that lasted for days and consultation with all sorts of offices. Before I could achieve really definitive measures in this direction, the order came from Berlin for the first transport. Through Czech liaison men I was able to get the transport list from the Gestapo department. We could not find out, at that time, what the destination or the transport was. I brought it about with my boss, Dr. Blancke, that all political prisoners who, on Kuschnir--Kuschnarev's incentive and the incentive of the other informers and stool-pigeons had been put on the list were to be taken from it. I lied to my chief, Dr. Blancke, and told him that these prisoners were not capable of standing the transport. He would hear nothing of any further scratchings from the list. He said they were all going to die any way, I couldn't prevent the transport from leaving altogether since I had a boss above me who, so far as the prisoners were concerned, had a basically different orientation than I did.
Only at the last minute was I told, shortly before the transport was to leave, that it was going to leave. Since I had just returned from Weimar, I found out that a nurse from the prisoners' hospital was included in the transport. After long negotiations witn Dr. Blancke I succeeded in extracting this nurse from the transport. I was able to prevent the second transport's leaving altogether because I had the Jews intended for that transport assigned as mason's appretices and, if a person couldn't so be classified, I kept tnis prisoner as long as the danger lasted either in some section of the hospital, or I classified them as out patients or I said that they were suspected of having typhoid. All these measures I cannot describe in detail. Dr. Kogon stated correctly, as I have already said, that there was always a tug or war which worked out to my advantage, not in the least because I was able to use the products of the oft-mentioned. illegal work shops and was able to carry out exchanges which protected the endangered Jews.
I prevented the third transport in the same way. One of my colleagues had begun a paper on the anthropological measurements of Jews, and the liaison men of the Jewish prisoners, men by the names of Kohn and Hoechster, brought this to my attention and proposed that this work should be continued officially to provide a further reason for preventing the transports. It was so done. That is to say, no one really did any work on this paper, But we had it ready at all times. Since the prisoners knew that such theses and papers were looked on favorably by the top office in Berlin, we were able, in this way, to save a great number of people.
So far as I remember now, I prevented the last transport by stating, contrary to the truth, that the Jewish prisoners were suspected of having typhoid. I must say that this plan did not originate with me but was worked out by the German political prisoners. The plan worked very well because the SS camp management had a very considerable respect for epi demics.
Finally, letters came from the WVHA saying that only Jewish prisoners could be transported who were not capable of work. The commander showed me this letter and, in the meantime, I had become the first camp physician. On my suggestion, the commander then reported to Berlin that there were no prisoners in Buchenwald who were not capable of work. This brought it a pout that the continual inquiries from Berlin about the transports stopped coming in. Because of these continual inquiries, it had been necessary to prevent the same transports leaving several time running.
Q. Is it then true as Dr, Kogan said on page 1273 of the English transcript, is it true that it was due to you that in the beginning of 1943 there was a large number of Jews in Buchenwald?
A. There can be no doubt about that. In addition I also mention that at about that time until my imprisonment in September 1943 there were a great number of Jews in Buchenwald. It must also be mentioned that I had classified the Jewish prisoners as apprentices and who were working as skilled laborers in the Gustlof works. These were the only Jews who had been interned in 1938, and who had managed to live until the American Army liberated them seven years later. Moreover, these were the only Jews in all the German concentration camps who had been incarcerated in 1938, and had survived, so that they could be liberated by the Americans, "'his fact was a miracle by the Americans as I was told by one of my interrogators. So far as the acts of 1944 and 1945 are concerned, there can be no doubt that it was the will of the Berlin office that Buchenwald was to be cleared of Jews by 194-1 That this did not happen is not due solely to me. I should like to emphasize at this time that I was successful in this only because the German political prisoners did a vast amount of work risking their lives everyday. The same is true of the Czech laison men who were in the Gestapo Department, risking their lives peeking into official files which were never accessible to me. These Czech prisoners gave me a copy of the death list. On the basis of it the German political prisoners could be saved from the 14 f 13 action. Primarily through must be given to the Jewish prisoners, namely Max Hoechster, who was city architect in Frankfurt on the Main, originally, and Andre Behrens a relative of the banking house of Behrens in Hamburg, and George Warburg, a relative of the banking house of Max Hoechster, I believe in New York. These Jewish prisoners worked in the counter-action or what we called 13 f 14, They stood by me throughout and advised and helped me.