Q. Now, after the experiments were concluded, didn't you tell Beiglboeck that you would help him to get a job as a consultant and he refused to accept that?
A. Dr. Wilhelm Meister, one of the Slovakian resistance movement men, was murdered and thus his position was free. I asked Beiglboeck whether he would like me to speak to my department chief and ask for the position for him, since it was open. Beiglboeck refused that because he preferred to remain as the internal director in his hospital.
Q. No further question.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no further questions by the defense counsel, the Prosecution may cross-examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. May it please the Tribunal, Dr. Becker Freyseng in the course of your direct examination you stated in regard to your position in so far as the experiments on human beings are concerned that you held three points and set forth three points which must be fulfilled prior to experimentation on human beings. As I understand it, point No. 1 was that the experiment must be necessary, that is, there is no other solution; point No. 2, the experiment must also have been well prepared and all research along those lines through animal experimentation has been exhausted, and you had perhaps model experiments and experiments on the physician himself; and, No. 3, you stated medical actions. Would you kindly explain to me just what you meant by point No. 3?
A. I think my point No. 3 was that the experiments should be carried out in strict accordance with regular medical procedure.
Q. Does the element of consent or the voluntary nature of the subject come into play?
A. It does come into play and let me point out to you that when my counsel asked me this question he explicitly said that in my answer I should leave the question of the voluntary consent of experimental subjects altogether out of my answer, and, therefore, I did not say anything at that time regarding the voluntary nature of the subjects. Later, however, I did go into the question of their consent and said that I was convinced that prisoners could also be used as voluntary subjects.
Q. Well then if I understand you correctly the ethical conditions under which you would act would be: 1, that the experiment must be necessary, that there is no other solution; No. 2, that it was well prepared through animal experimentation, model experiments, and selfexperiments; and No. 3, that it was under the so-called medical action rule; and No. 4, the subjects must be volunteers?
A. Those are the conditions under which I consider the experimentation justified.
Q. Who do you feel may volunteer for experiments?
A. Anyone in full possession of his senses.
Q. Well, do you think somewhat along the same lines as Professor Rose, that perhaps only medical students or physicians should volunteer for experimentation?
A. No, it seems to me that any mentally normal person who can be told what the nature of the experiment is.
Q. Well then by that token it must be necessary for the physician to warn the experimental subject about the hazards of the experiments, is that true?
A. I should like to say that it should at least be explained to him.
Q. Then point No. 5 under Becker Freyseng No. 1 is that the physician should advise the experimental subjects?
A. Let me point out that I had already included this condition under point 3 of my previous principles when answering questions put me by Judge Sebring.
Q. Well now that we have your ethical principles clearly in mind, do you feel that every experiment which you instigated in the past followed these principles, that every experiment instigated by you in the past followed these principles?
A. Since I instigated only one, namely, the sea water experiment, I am convinced that what was done by me corresponds to the principles I just set forth.
Q. Do you feel that any experimental plan that did not comply with the ethical principles would be criminal?
A. You asked whether I believed any other experimental plan that did not meet the principle I set forth would be criminal -- is that what you asked?
Q. That is what I asked, yes.
A. That I can't say because I know nothing of my own knowledge of the plans for the other experiments.
Q. Well, do you think it would be unethical?
Q. Any experiment which did not meet the regulations as set forth by you here on this witness stand?
A. I cant answer that question either because to do so I should have to know all of the conditions and I don't know them.
Q. Dr. Becker Freyseng, as I understand it, in 1941 you assumed this position as Assistant Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine in the Medical Department of the Chief of the Medical Services of the Luftwaffe, is that correct?
A. In August 1941 I became an Assistant Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine in the Office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate, yes.
Q. How many Assistant Referents were there?
A. I said yesterday that only a few of the Referats had Assistant Referents. I believe that there were perhaps two other Referents -in other Referats, not in the Referat for Aviation on Medicine -- which had assistant Referents.
Q. What was the total number of personnel in the Referat for Aviation Medicine?
A. I think I told you that yesterday in some detail. Besides Professor Anthony and myself there was a clerk and sometimes there was a soldier to help around the office, and I believe during Dr. Anthony's time there was a second female helper instead of a soldier.
Q. Then there were never more than four people in the Referat for Aviation Medicine.
A. That is right.
Q. And only two had authority, that is the Referent and the Assistant Referent.
A. That is right.
Q. Where was the office of the Referat for Aviation Medicine located?
A. Until August 1943 it was in a building of the Tempelhof Airdrome and from 1943 on it was in the barracks camp of Saalow near Zossen, about 50 kilometers from Berlin.
Q. Where was the Office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, namely, Hippke, and later Schroeder?
A. That was until 1943 in Berlin in the same building in the Tempelhof Airdrome, and from 1943 on it was also in the barracks camp Saalow, near Zossen.
Q. Physically how far were the offices of the Referent for Aviation Medicine from the Office of the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe?
A. In Berlin, Hippke's office was on the second floor and our office was on the third floor in the same part of the same building, and in the barracks camp at Saalow the barracks in which the various offices were perhaps fifty to eighty meters apart.
Q. Well now in May 1944 you became the Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So during the time at issue in this trial we had two Referents from August 1941 on Anthony was the Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine up until May 1944, and after that time you became Referent?
A. Yes, the change took place about the 15 May 1944.
Q. Were the duties of the Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine limited to merely the phere of aviation medicine?
A. I believe I already described that at great length. My real duties were limited to the field of aviation medicine.
Q. Did you have any other fields in which you were active?
A. Yesterday I said that from July on of 1944, that is, I was also medical Referent with the Research Leadership of the Air Ministry, and until the beginning of 1944 I carried on research of my own in the Medical Research Institute. I cannot recall any other duties at the moment.
Q Well now didn't, as a matter of fact, all assignments pass through your office when you were Referent to Schroeder -- all research assignments?
A I described that at great length. I said that the Referat for Aviation Medicine, aside from its 95% aviation assignments, also did purely formal work for the rest of the research assignments, even if not aviation medical assignments or in other fields.
Q Well, then could it be construed that the office you held was more or less a clearing house for all research assignments?
A Could you perhaps explain what you mean by the expression clearing house?
Q Now most of these assignments had to have allocations, various materials, had to receive subsidies, money, have regulations to be abided by. Now, was your office the office wherein these matters were taken care of for all research assignments of the Luftwaffe?
A I had thought that I had discussed this so exhaustively already that I would not have to go into it again. However, -----
Q Dr. Becker-Freyseng, before you continue I want to tell you that my reason for asking you this is that perhaps in your direct examination you were too elaborate, so elaborate that it became very confusing to me and I am trying to straighten myself out now. So, if you will be brief and answer my questions briefly perhaps I can understand you more clearly.
A I shall be only too happy to try to.
A In our office there were always roughly one hundred current assignments at one time, 95 of themn concerning the field of aviation medicine. These assignments were taken care of by my Referat formally, so far as their contents were concerned. I took care of the formal and organizational aspects of the other 5 assignments of this hundred. You mentioned funds necessary. Perhaps I should tell you that -
Q We will get to that later, Doctor, when going into that point. Then, in brief, all research assignments made by the Luftwaffe came through the office of Becker-Freyseng, irrespective of whether or not they dealt with aviation medicine?
A Yes, after I became Referent in 1944 they all went through my Referat, that is right.
Q Thank you, Doctor. Now, during the course of Anthony's term as Referent, if I understand you correctly, he did not have the authority to issue orders; is that correct?
A That is so. No Referent had the right to issue orders.
Q Well now, did you have the authority to issue orders when you became Referent?
A No more than any other Referent. None of the Referents had the authority to issue orders.
Q Well, now, suppose you were interested in some particular research and in order to initiate a program you must have orders so that you could have Haagen or any one of your consultants at various universities who worked on a particular problem commence their work, who would issue that order?
A Research assignments were issued only by the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate himself personally and signed by him, before the first of January 1944 by Hippke, after that by Professor Schroeder.
Q Then, in brief again, a Referent had no authority whatsoever to issue orders, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Now, you have stated here in direct examination that during Anthony's term as Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine you were merely an assistant Referent, that you were not a deputy; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Then you had no authority to issue instructions to the employees in Anthony's absence, is that correct?
A May I ask what employees you are talking about?
Q Well, the other two employees in your office?
A Well, of course, I could dictate a letter to then or something like that.
Q Suppose Anthony went on an extended trip, how could you carry on the business of the office, would you lock the door of the office then and take a vacation?
A No, above me was my departmental chief who was competent for my department and who gave me my assignments. I had my own room to which the departmental chief sent me the documents I was to work on. But Anthony's room was really locked up, that is so.
Q Has the departmental chief an expert in the field of aviation medicine?
A My two departmental chiefs could be considered specialists in the field of aviation medicine, because the first was Generalarzt Dr. Martius, who had previously been the directing doctor of the German Aviation Sport Association, and consequently he knew about aviation. And the second one was Oberstarzt Dr. Merz, who was himself a good pilot and knew a good deal more about flying than I did, for example.
Q Assume for the moment that Anthony was on a trip and an important problem came up in the field of Aviation Medicine wherein it was necessary for orders to be issued. To whom would you turn?
A It is very easy to answer that question. Such a problem would have come to the office in writing in the normal course of events, at least let us assume so. Then this report or this inquiry, before it reached the Referat, would have been seen by the department chief. Then the department chief would either have reached a decision immediately himself or he would have asked me to find certain documents for him on the basis of which he could make his decision. Or, if this was a field which the department chief knew was within the special field of Anthony's work, then the department chief -- and this often happened when Anthony was on trips would have ordered that efforts be made to reach Anthony by telephone and to put the problem to him. Those are the main possibilities.
Q Being hypothetical again for a moment, assume that Anthony decided that it was necessary to initiate research in the field of high altitude, or rescue from high altitude and he wanted to commission Benzinger in his institute at Rechlin, or Ruff in his institute at Adlershof, or Weltz in his institute at Munich, to conduct research along those lines, who would initiate the research order? Anthony?
A Under no circumstances.
Q Now, doctor, do you have Document Book No. 12 in front of you? That's document No. NO-306 in the typhus experiments Document Book, on page
A I merely have a few documents from that Document Book.
Q This is page 74 of the English, Your Honor. It's document NO-306 that you discussed yesterday, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, wherein you pointed to the last sentence in the letter. This is a letter from Rose to Haagen.
A I have that document here.
Q You pointed to the last sentence in this letter, which states as follows: "It will take some time until 2-F produces its new research order, as Anthony is on a duty trip for several weeks." And you indicated to the Tribunal that this sentence substantiated your position that you were unable to act in Anthony's absence and that you were not by this token his deputy. Now, isn't it apparent from this sentence that Anthony had the authority to issue a research order?
A No, that is not apparent at all.
Q It certainly is, doctor. Read it.
A The sentence reads somewhat differently in the original than from what I just heard, over the earphones. The translation says: "Its new research assignments". However, in the copy I have here it says "Until 2-F can produce the new research order."
MR. HARDY: I won't quibble with you about the translation, because all day yesterday the translators translated the word research order. Whether it be research assignment or research order, that is immaterial.
The assignment or order initiated from Anthony, according to Rose. Now I want you to bear in mind that if you attempt to state Rose didn't know the inner workings of your office, then you must also bear in mind that refutes your argument that you were not a deputy to Anthony, if Rose didn't know what was going on in your office. Isn't it true here from this sentence, from reading this sentence, that Anthony had the authority to issue a research assignment or order?
A That is not to be seen in this sentence at all. Now, let me say regarding the translation, that it is not a question of the translation "research order" or "research assignment", but what you read me before was read to me that "it would be quite a while before 2-F gave out its research assignment", but here it says "until 2-F produces the new research order".
Q That's right. Just what I said, "produces its new research order". I'll ask the interpreters kindly to turn to Document Book #12, the German edition thereof, and read the last sentence as it is in the document book which will be an exact quotation of what I have just read in the English.
Interpreter reads sentence in German.
A That's just what I read, and it doesn't correspond exactly to what I heard from the interpreters before.
Q Now, this states that "it will take 2-F some time to produce its new research order", 2-F being the Referat for Aviation Medicine, and the chief thereof was one Anthony. Now, how could Anthony produce a research order? He didn't have that authority.
A There is nothing here to the effect that Anthony will issue this research order, but only that it will take some time before the order is issued, because so long as Anthony is away the order can't be worked on and, consequently, cannot be put to the departmental chief, or the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate, for signature.
Q Then it is true that all research orders initiate from the Referent's office and that the signature of Schroeder was merely a formality, is that true? Or did Schroeder know the contents of each and every research order?
A It had to be shown to him by the department chief, and I can say again, in this connection, this particular research assignment surely did not initiate from the Referat for Aviation Medicine, but certainly from the Referat for Hygiene, which was interested in such vaccine matters. The assignment went through the Referat for Aviation Medicine that is, through Anthony's office only so that the formal and organizational aspects could of it and prepare it for the signature of the department chief or the chief of the Medical Inspectorate.
Both the Referat for Hygiene and the Referat for Aviation Medicine was subordinate to the same department chief, so that if Anthony, or later I, submitted a research assignment to him that really concerned the Hygiene Referat then, of course, the Hygiene Referat had already oriented him about the matter.
Q Then that is most interesting to me, Doctor. Then I can assume that every research assignment issued in behalf of the Luftwaffe was known to Schroeder. Every detail of it. Because he issued it. It was his order. Nobody else's.
A That is true only after 1 January 1944.
Q That is when he became chief. That is correct. After he became Chief of the Medical Services of the Luftwaffe, Schroeder was personally acquainted with each and every research order that emanated from the Luftwaffe.
AAfter he signed new research assignments, he knew that such an assignment existed, of course, but he could not possibly have known the details of such an assignment because when such an assignment was given that was only the beginning of the research, at which time, as we know, the details are not even known. Otherwise there would be no need to issue a research assignment.
Q Who knew the details?
A Only the scientist himself who worked on the research assignment, and he only knew the details after he had finished the research.
Q Whenever it became necessary to issue a research order, did Professor Schroeder sit down by himself and figure out what order should be issued?
A Certainly not.
Q He took the advice of the various Referats?
A The various Referats or consultants or the commissioned specialists or whoever it might be. That differed from case to case.
Q Then, in essence, the particular research order would have been draw up by the Referant for Schroeder's signature? Is that what you're trying to convey to me?
A The research assignment, for example, in the field of aviation medicine in 1944 was drawn up, dictated by me after the scientist in question had generally made an application and had told me exactly why he wanted to receive a research assignment. This draft of a research assignment I then submitted to my department chief. He either made changes in it or approved it as it was. Under some circumstances, he turned it down immediately. That sometimes happened. Then we had it rewritten and it was put to the chief of staff, and if he was in agreement with it then it went to the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate for the final decision.
Q Perhaps I gained an incorrect impression from the testimony of Professor Schroeder here before this Tribunal, Dr. Becker-Freyseng. I have the impression from the testimony of Professor Schroeder that you more or less dealt with Professor Schroeder directly without going through any intermediaries. Isn't that the impression he created here?
A I don't believe so. I believe that impression arose because we are sitting next to each other in the dock here without the representatives of the offices in between. Without first speaking to the department chief and the chief of staff I could not go to Schroeder personally or directly.
Q Didn't Schroeder say that whenever any of these research assignment problems came up he always turned that over to Becker-Freyseng, on page 3618 of the transcript?
A It is quite possible that he said that, but I think if you had asked him more exactly just how that was done he would certainly have said that if he, for example, received a report that concerned an aviation medical research assignment, the report went first to the chief of staff, who sent it to the department chief, who sent it me.
Q Well now, I think we have fairly well cleared up the scope of your authority as a Referant. Now, I'd like to know, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, what authority you had over the various institutes of the Luftwaffe, such as the Institute at Adlershof, the Institute at Munich, and various other institutes?
A None at all.
Q But Professor Weltz told me, here on the witness stand, that his subordination was to Luftgau VII - that is, the regional organization of the Luftwaffe in Munich - for disciplinary measures, and to the Office of Anthony for scientific reasons. Don't you recall that? It seems somewhat strange to me that the chief of one of your institutes felt for a number of years that his superior was Anthony, and later Becker-Freyseng, for scientific purposes, and for disciplinary purposes, the Luftgua.
A Let me remind you that Dr. Weltz said in answer to Dr. Tipp's question that this testimony referred to the fact that scientifically, of course, he was subordinate to the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, and when he said that he was subordinate to Anthony's office he simply wanted to express by so saying that he knew that aviation medical matters were handled in Anthony's Referat.
Q Are you trying to create the impression, Doctor, that Professor Weltz didn't know who he was working for, for five years of six years?
A I said explicitly that Weltz said in answer to Dr. Tipp's question exactly what he meant by that previous testimony.
Q We'll let the Tribunal weigh that.
Were any other institutes subordinate to you, Dr. Becker-Freyseng?
A I just said that no institutes were subordinate to me. Consequently, there were no other institutes that were subordinate to me.
Q This is a good breaking point, Your Honor. I'm going to another subject.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 9:30 o'clock Tuesday morning.
(A recess was taken until 0930 hours, 27 May 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American MilitaryTribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 27 May 1947, 1015, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, before I start the continuation of cross examination I have one problem to take up with the Tribunal. Defense counsel for the defendant Becker-Freyseng has requested that the witness Dr. Eugen Haagen be called before this Tribunal. They have also requested that the case of Becker-Freyseng, Schaefer, and Beiglboeck be completed before Dr. Haagen is called to the stand as a witness in behalf of Becker-Freyseng in as much as they do not want to interrupt the continuity of the sea water evidence. Prosecution is in agreeance with that and, if it meets the approval of the Tribunal, it is suggested that the case of Becker-Freyseng be completed, then the case of the defendant Schaefer, and the defendant Beiglboeck, and then the witness Haagen be called before this Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal adopts the suggestion of counsel and that procedure will be followed.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, Your Honor.
BECKER-FREYSENG - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Doctor, during the course of your direct examination I understood you to say that when you assumed your duties as assistant Referent in the Referat for Aviation Medicine in 1941 that one of your major tasks was the remodeling of low pressure chambers, in as much as low pressure chambers existent in Germany at that time did not meet modern requirements. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Can you kindly tell us whom you engaged to manufacture a new low pressure chamber?
A. I never engaged anyone, but the building of the new low pressure chambers was started by my departmental chief or by whoever has signed that order. A firm was entrusted with that task, Zeuzen at Frankfurt on the Main.
Q. How many low pressure chambers did you order at that time?
A. During my direct examination I explained that in 1941 we were not concerned with ordering new low pressure chambers but with the modernization of those chambers which were already available. I estimate that at that time we had twenty to twenty-five chambers that had to be remodeled that way. During the course of the war we had another few chambers and at the end of the war there were about thirty to thirtyfive chambers.
Q. Then did the manufacture or reconstruction of each chamber take place in this factory in Frankfurt?
A. No, the Frankfurt factory sent their engineers to the place where the low pressure chambers were located, because they were firmly built into the ground. They were so-called immovable chambers and the firm sent a number of men to whatever place the low pressure chamber was located.
Q. Were there any other manufacturers of low pressure chambers other than at the Frankfurt plant?
A. No.
Q. What I am driving at, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, is that I recall that when Ruff needed spare parts for his low pressure chamber it seems to me that he sent his representative to Cologne to secure the spare parts.
Now, who in Cologne would produce or manufacture spare parts for low pressure chambers, or were such parts available in any hardware store, for instance?
A. From my own knowledge I cannot say with what spare parts we were concerned. I am not informed about the particulars in this matter. I do know, however, that the firm Leibold in Cologne manufactured pumps. I assume that when procuring spare parts from Cologne Dr. Ruff turned to the firm Leibold. However, I know no particulars about that.
Q. Now, as I understand it from other conversations with people at Heidelberg, and during your testimony here, that you are decidedly an expert in the field of high altitude research, and I noticed that you are particularly familiar with the construction of low pressure chambers. Now, could you tell me just what particular equipment might go out of order in connection with pumps in a low pressure chamber? For instance, does a pump have anything to do with the barometer, electrocardiogram, realizing fully, doctor, that I am not familiar at all with the mechanics of a low pressure chamber and I am anxious to determine just what might go out of order in connection with a pump so that it would have to be replaced?
A. Well, I may repeat that I don't know in detail what actually went out of order.
Q. Barometer? Would a broken barometer have any connection with pump equipment?
A. I can't determine any direct connection between these two matters.
Q. What is the purpose of the barometer on a low pressure chamber?
A. The barometer serves to determine the exact altitude.
Q. What causes the barometer to rise and fall?
A. The rise and fall of the mercury is caused by the rise and fall of the pressure in the chamber.
Q. And what causes the rise and fall of the pressure in the chamber?
A. The pumps letting in the air or pumping it out again.
Q. And then would it be possible that the manufacturer in Cologne wherein Dr. Ruff attempted to secure spare parts for his pumps -- that barometers for low pressure chambers could be obtained from that source?
A. I wouldn't assume that, because the firm manufacturing such barometers was the firm Fuess in Berlin. I know of no firm for barometers in Cologne.
Q. Now, doctor, in a low pressure chamber can you tell us in the connection with the controls of a low pressure chamber just how far the various barometers and other dials are from one another. That is, relatively how far would the electrocardiogram be from the control and the barometers? Can you attempt to describe to this Tribunal just what the picture is of the equipment which is on a low pressure chamber?
A I must say the following in that connection. The installation of the electrocardiograph was a part of the low pressure chamber. However the electrocardiograph was used for the low pressure chamber, it could be placed at various parts, either inside or outside the chamber. Since I was not personally present during these experiments, I cannot give you any description which would correspond to the truth. In other words, how the various instruments were placed in relation to one another.
Q Could you, for instance, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, conduct an experiment alone? In other words, if you were conducting an experiment and using the electrocardiogram, could you conduct the experiment and manipulate the controls without any assistance?
A I would have to have one technical assistant or an engineer, and I think that then I would be able to perform a normal experiment. At any rate, I did perform numerous of such experiments.
Q Have you ever performed experiments in the course of your work in the field of high altitude -- that is, either prior to the end of the ear or at the Aero Medical Center in Heidelberg -- and used the electrocardiograph?
A Yes. I think that was before the war. I may draw your attention to one thing, however. From the description which Dr. Romberg gave here, about the way how the electrograph he was using worked, it became evident to me that this was a special model not used by us in our institute. This was an instrument where the cardiac output could be observed through a tube.
Q Just what is the express purpose, Doctor -- I want to get your definition of the express purpose of an electrocardiograph? What does it tell us?
A The purpose of an electrocardiograph is to register the electrical currents produced through the work of the heart.
Q Can you tell from the study of the electrocardiograph whether or not a person in a low pressure chamber, undergoing an experiment, is in danger?
AAs I already said before, I never performed any experiments, where we could observe danger for our experimental subjects by means of the electrocardiograph. We used other methods in order to make that observation. After what I heard here from Dr. Romberg on the witness stand, I know, or I can confirm, that by means of the electrocardiograph one is in a position to carry out such an examination.
Q Well, prior to the war -- to the end of the war, pardon me, what was the highest altitude that any of your experiments had attained? Did you go up to 20,000 meters in your experiments ever, prior to the end of the war?
A I personally was engaged in other experiments and my highest altitude was only 15 kilometers.
Q Now, Doctor, these low pressure chambers, they were under the control of the referent, is that correct, for Aviation Medicine?
A Yes, after they were taken over by us.
Q Now, that was in 1941? The low pressure chambers were taken over by your office; that is, the office of Anthony?
A Now, this is not exactly right. That was already earlier. The low pressure chambers which had been taken over by the Medical Inspectorate, and that also held true in peace, were handled by the referat for Aviation Medicine.
Q Did you have any further connection or authority over the allocation of the low pressure chamber after you had once assigned it to a particular institute?
A No.
Q Then, in other words, when you assigned a low pressure chamber to, say, Ruff's Institute, to Institute Weltz, or to the institute at Rechlin, where Benzinger was the commanding officer, after the assignment then you had no further ado with that low pressure chamber? Is that it?
A No.
Q Suppose Dr. Ruff wanted to send the low pressure chamber to Rechlin? Benzinger called him on the telephone and said: "Dr. Ruff, I'd like to use your low pressure chamber for two or three weeks."