Q. You further told us that as soon as the pressure was increased, the damaged tube could not stand the pressure and then burst as a result; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, do you really want to maintain that?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, just consider the following point. You made a mistake in your way of thinking, and you thought that you could improve your situation by telling us that. The higher tho airplane rises the lower is the pressure. The mercury tube does nob rise when the airplane rises but falls down, pressure decreases and you made this mistake. After I put that to you, do you still want be maintain your erroneous description under oath?
A. Yes.
Q. And then I shall put another point to you where you made a mistake. You told us yesterday that on this glass tuba where the mercury rises and falls there was a little glass vessel which also burst when the measuring apparatus burst, and this little vessel at the bottom, where the mercury was, also burst. Avon that statement of yours is erroneous and untrue for this glass vessel about which you told the Tribunal yesterday, in reality consists of metal, and now I am asking you again, are you still maintaining your obviously untrue statement of yesterday about this point, in spite of your oath?
A. Yes.
DR. SAUTER: In that case, I have no further questions, Mr. President.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VORWERK: (Defense counsel for Romberg)
Q. Witness, assuming you were in a position to give us exact details, I can only say give us an expert opinion about medical matters, I should like to find out about your medical career.
Did you receive any Medical education?
A. No, in no way at all.
Q. You had no Medical education whatsoever?
A. No.
Q. Do you think that a nan who received no medical education at all could adopt an attitude towards the questions, which you did yesterday, in an exact and true manner?
A. As far a I gave my answers yesterday I always emphasized that this was an opinion. To what extent it is an expert judgment I cannot decide, and this has to be left to the experts.
Q. Now, if I understand you correctly, you want to say that you do not consider yourself competent for an export opinion on medical questions?
A. Yes.
Q. You just told Dr. Sauter that you were interrogated on this subject here in Nurnberg for approximately six days. Were those the only interrogations about that subject, or were you interrogated at an earlier date?
A. I was interrogated about these natters at an earlier stage, also.
Q. When was that?
A. That was June, July and August, 1945.
Q. Does your testimony of June and July, '45 tally with the testimonies that you made before this high Tribunal here yesterday and today?
A. During these months I was not interrogated about the manner in which the experiments were conducted, but mainly about medical matters as far as I remembered them.
Q. I only mean with reference to the questions which were put to you at that time and now, docs your testimony tally?
A. In all my statements I try to tread on a correct road and say the complete truth, and I think that the answers that I gave at that time have to tally with the answers I an giving today.
Q. But you don't know that exactly, do you?
A. Well, I don't knew exactly what questions were put to no at that time.
Q. So if I summarize your answer, you are saying that as far as you remember your testimony of June-July, 1945, tallies with the testimony that you made before this Tribunal?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I should like to draw your attention once more to the high altitude experiments. When did you see Dr. Romberg for the first time?
A. After the vans arrived. That was at the end of January or February. Romberg have us directives how those vans were to be installed, and I then saw him on the 22nd of February, 1942.
Q. Did he give you those directives?
A. There were craftsmen there who were composed of inmates and they were the ones who received those directives.
Q. When was that?
A. That was at the end of January or the beginning of February.
Q. Well, at that time you saw Dr. Romberg for the first time?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you known Dr. Rascher before that?
A. No, I had met Rascher in the camp on two or three occasions and I really not him for the first time at the aviation experimental station.
Q. Well, when did you see Rascher for the first time in the camp?
A. It is very hard to say that. That was during 1941.
Q. Did you still know about Rascker's activity, what he did in the camp when you saw him for the first time?
A. I know that be was collecting blood of cancer diseased persons in order to conduct experiments.
Q. Did Rascher tell you who had commissioned him to conduct high altitude experiments?
A. No.
Q. Did you later learn from Dr. Rascher or somebody case under whose orders Dr. Rascher was conducting these experiments?
A. I did not learn that directly from either of these two gentlemen as to who exactly gave the order for these experiments.
Q. In your testimony of yesterday you differentiated clearly, and I mean within the framework of these high altitude experiments, between certain series of experiments. For instance, you stated that for the first series of experiment the normal series, ten inmates were placed at the disposal?
A. That's right.
Q. And then these subjects were experimented upon. You stated that these ten inmates were criminal inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. You further state that beyond that Dr. Rascher, after the conclusion of the experiments with the ton inmates, was conducting further experiments with other inmates in addition to the ten?
A. It really wasn't the case that only these ton experimental subjects were used, but that a number of other inmates were taken to the experimental station to be experimented upon.
Q. But do you know what the aim was that was thought to be achieved by carrying out these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that a report was made with reference to these experiments?
A. I only know that after the conclusion of the experiments Rascher stated that now these experiments were to be exploited scientifically and that Rascher went to Munich. I know no details about any contents of such a report.
Q. Do you know whether these experiments were actually concluded? Since a report was made the outsider would naturally think that these experiments were concluded. Do you know anything about that?
A. No, I only know Rascher said that there was a let to be done yet and he was going to try to keep the vans there.
Q There is something not very clear about that. It is hard to understand that a report was made about these experiments and on the other hand it is hard to understand that Rascher tried to keep these chambers in the concentration camp of Dachau or to get them back. Really, it seems to me if the experiments were concluded then why did Rascher want it sent back? Can you clarify that?
A I can only give my opinion about that, which is that Rascher was a very ambitious man and he wanted to continue these experiments on his own initiative. Furthermore, during the experiments in which Dr. Romberg was not present or. Rascher experimented on his own initiative and he wanted to proven Romberg from knowing about it, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted those experiments during the night when Romberg was absent.
Q Now if I understand you correctly, the van was originally brought to Dachau to perform a certain series of experiments and that Rascher only conceived the idea later to perform the further experiments which went beyond the original series of experiments, are you of that opinion?
A Yes, I share that opinion although I think it is plain that considering the ten ones who were selected originally for the experiments they were given the assurance that nothing would happen to them.
Q Who gave them that assurance?
A Rascher, he gave this assurance to these ten comrades.
Q He mentioned that to you?
A Well he didn't have to mention it to me. However I had to undergo a number of experiments, but this assurance was not given to me.
Q In the beginning of the experiments wasn't it obvious to you that considering the talks which Rascher and Romberg had that no one but the ton were to be used wasn't that quite obvious to you?
AAt the beginning?
Q At the beginning of the experiments, yes that is what I am asking you, wasn't that obvious to you?
AAt the beginning of the experiments it could be assumed that only the ten experimenters were to be used.
Q Do you know that on the part of the camp administration a directive went to the inmates stating that they could volunteer for these experiments, and could then expect to be released, or at any rate receive more favorable treatment?
A It is not known to me that this was in any any publicized by the damp administration.
Q But you aid state yesterday that a number of the experimental subjects volunteer?
A It was only possible that the man concerned approached Dr. Rascher directly, which was difficult, and Dr. Rascher was frequently asked and quite often an inmate who had been assigned to hard work and knowing that he would get better treat out somewhere else would put himself at the disposal of these experiments, and in addition at the time the Reichsfuehrer visited the camp it wan promised to the inmates.
Q Who promised that to them? Did you hear that?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the words he used?
A On the visit of May 5th experiments were conducted in the presence of the Reichsfuehrer and at that time the Reichsfuehrer said theses people who are undergoing experiments, if they survive they can be released
Q You said that it was clear to you or obvious to you at the beginning of these experiments that only these ten persons were to be used. According to your opinion, wouldn't that have been obvious to Dr. Romberg too?
A Yes.
Q So you can that Dr.Romberg participated in this series of experiment with the intention of experimenting on these ten persons?
A Yes.
Q And in addition you say that Rascher three weeks later was conducting certain experiments, experiments which went beyond the original intention. So far it has not become obvious what the purpose of those experiments was. It appears to me that the purpose was to determine how the electrocardiograph recorded the dying person's heart reaction, can you say something about that with reference to the purpose which Rascher wanted to achieve with reference to his experiments, I mean the experiments, which went beyond the ton persons?
A His purpose was to use the electrocardiograph on dying persons, it was obvious, and I refer to the time when the electrocardiograph was used on persons whose heart was still beating, but I don't know what purpose Dr. Rascher had in mind. I hadn't known in the case of the first one, and no electrocardiograph recording were made.
Q Who was present during these times?
A It was Dr. Rascher, Hautpscharfuehrer Endes and an SS man who was unknown to me.
Q Didn't you receive knowledge later what purpose Dr. Rascher wanted to achieve with the further experiments? Did he intend to conduct a certain series of experiments or were they individual experiments, or didn't he know perhaps exactly what no wanted or did he want to kill people?
A The purpose of these current killings by Rascher is not known to no. At that time I was completely new to the entire sphere and it was impossible for me to make any observation. I cannot state anything in that regard.
Q The purpose of the experiments which were ordered by the Luftwaffe Research institute, where they were originated, and if I shall tell you that if the report which was submitted to the High Tribunal where it was stated people can be saved from high altitude, or rather from the dangers arising from high altitude, and at that time Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg conducted these experiments an these ten or after inmates, according to your opinion, was it necessary in order to test the possibility of saving people from high altitude, was it necessary to kill people for that purpose?
A No, we were told, or rather I was told by Dr. Rascher that these experiments were being conducted because during the parachute landings at Crete many German parachutists landed in a dead condition, and that was the reason for the series of experiments.
Q So you state it was not necessary to conduct these experiments to kill people for that purpose? Did experimental subjects die during the day? In the report which was submitted to the Tribunal by the Prosecution, it was stated that during these high altitude experiments there was no loss of life. Do you know whether these experimental subjects lost their lives?
A I know that a number of persons lost their lives during the experiment which were conducted in the day time, but it is possible these experiments were not included in the report, but I am sure there were victims during the day.
Q We previously merely differentiated between the series of experiments which Romberg and Rascher conducted by order of the Luftwaffe Research Institute and such experiments which Rascher conducted because of his own interest or by personal order of Mimmler. Now did Rascher only conduct these later experiments during the night or also during the day?
A He also conducted them during the day.
Q. Was it possible for you at that time to determine which experiments were conducted by order of the Luftwaffe Research Institute, by Rascher and Romberg; and which experiments were conducted by Rascher personally on his own initiative or by order of Himmler?
A. It is impossible for me to differentiate here as to just who ordered those individual experiments.
Q. Now if; in this report about the experiments which were ordered by the Luftwaffe Research Council; it was mentioned that people did not lose their lives during these experiments, would you say that was a lie, or would you say that this series of experiments which were selected for that report was merely with reference to the normal experiments where the ten persons were used?
Before you reply; I should like to point out to you that at that time there was no reason to state in a report that experimental subjects did not die, if they actually did, because nobody would have prosecuted the people concerned anyway.
A. If in that report on the experiments which you have mentioned there was no mention of any case of death, then in my opinion the number of death cases was willfully kept out of the report. During the time the report was made the persons who made that report know clearly that there were a number of death cases during the course of these experiments.
Q. You do not differentiate sufficiently. Please think very carefully. I spoke about two kinds of experiments: I spoke about the ones which were conducted by Romberg and Rascher by order of the Luftwaffe Research Institute and secondly, I spoke about the experiments which Rascher conducted either because of his lust for murder or because of Himmler's order. Would it not ha been possible that all cases of death occurred in the latter series of experiments, and that for that reason this series of experiments was excluded from the report to the Luftwaffe Research Institute?
A. In fact, the position was that Romberg was present during some experiments which resulted in death. I cannot differentiate as to where the orders for the individual experiments came from, or rather, in whose interests they were made; it is impossible for me to decide that.
However, when making the report, it must have been that these death cases were intentionally omitted from the report to the Luftwaffe.
Q. You stated that out of seventy to eighty death cases you recall five cases where Romberg was present. According to that, he was not present during most of the death cases.
A. Yes.
Q. Who was present during the other death cases, during the sixty-five or seventy-five cases?
A. Mostly an SS man from the camp administration, either the camp commander detail commander, or block commander, and Rascher. Even the camp commander was present during such experiments which resulted in death.
Q. These experiments where sixty-five to seventy-five persons died, were they similar to the ones during which Romberg was present, or were they not? And the experiments which resulted in death and where Romberg was present, were they similar to the ones which were conducted on the original ten persons
A. I must say, according to my layman opinion, that every death case in the air-pressure chamber was brought about willfully and intentionally.
Q. And whose will was that?
A. The will of the person who was conducting these experiments.
Q. And who was conducting these experiments?
A. Rascher and Romberg. Exactly who had the orders, who had the directives and referring to the experiments where Romberg was present, I don't know.
Q. But it is rather peculiar that in sixty-five to seventy-five cases Rascher bore the responsibility alone on his own shoulders, while in five cases both of them carried on this experiment and bore the responsibility. Was your presence voluntary during these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you leave?
A. There was martial law in the camp. It was said that whoever did not obey an order given by an SS man would be shot. Secondly, after the incident which I have already told about -- I mean the tailor incident -- if had left that station another person would have come in to my place.
No parson would have been kept out of those experiments and not one victim would have been saved.
Q. Yes, but you would not have been present; another person would have been present.
A. Yes.
Q. You say that it was impossible not to be present, is that right, with the greatest of danger?
A. I have to say-- and I am fully aware of the consequences-- it was not only the martial law, it was not only fear of Rascher that compelled me to stand that situation, but it was my duty to stay there and to prevent everything that could possibly be prevented.
Q. According to your opinion, would it have been possible for Romberg to refuse to appear during these experiments? You have stated, and I remind you of it, that most of the experiments, or the normal experiments, were conduct by Romberg and Rascher and that later in the evening, after Romberg had left, Rascher continued to conduct experiments; and further, that Rascher conducted particularly dangerous experiments when Romberg was not present. Did you have the impression that Romberg, on his own initiative, liked to watch these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Do you believe that Romberg, if he had had the opportunity, would have preferred to be absent during those five experiments?
A. I am asking myself what really could have happened to Romberg if he said he wanted to leave, and if he did not want to be present.
Q. You think there was no danger for Romberg had he not been present?
What was Rancher's power in the camp?
A. Rascher's power in the camp had no limit, but not at the beginning, Rascher's power increased periodically, and towards the end he was so strong that no one could interfere with him in the camp.
Q. Was Rascher a member of the SS at the beginning of the experiments?
A. I only hoard that Rascher, ever since 1934, was a member of the Gestapo
Q. Was he a member of the SS at the beginning of the experiments?
A. I don't know that.
Q. If you take these matters into consideration, wouldn't you say that Rascher's position was far more powerful than Romberg's?
A. Yes.
Q. And furthermore-- and I am repeating this question-- don't you believe that, judging from his entire behavior, Romberg would have preferred not to be present during these five cases?
A. I have already emphasized, yesterday, that I had the impression that Romberg wanted to withdraw these things, and I should not like to deny that Romberg, under the circumstances, had wanted to withdraw from these five where death occurred. Whether he did not do that because of lack of sufficient courage or for other reasons and yet remained there, I do not know.
Q. But it was not possible for you to find out whether the will to conduct these experiments originated from Rascher or not?
A. It is very hard for me to say yes or no; I can only express my feelings, and my feelings are that the initiator of these things was Rascher.
Q. You said that Romberg was present during these five experiments which resulted in death. Do you recall the details of those five experiments?
A. Surely the details-
Q.(Interposing) I mean, with reference to all five.
A. I cannot make any detailed statement as to what happened in the individual experiments.
Q. Do you remember exactly who was present during the other 65 or 75 experiments which resulted in death?
A. Whether the Commander of the Camp or the Detail Commandant was present or whether anybody was present, I do not know, that is, with reference to the individual cases.
Q. Well, how is it that you just remember that with reference to these 5 experiments?
A. Especially in the case of Romberg, of whom I had the impression that he tried to keep away from these things, it is very clear and obvious that I remember exactly when he was present.
Q. You said that the first experiment took place approximately 3 weeks later. That was after the orderly experiments had already started?
A. Yes.
Q. At tint time you further stated that Romberg was not present?
A. No.
Q. When Romberg came back did you tell him that in the meantime death had occurred during these experiments?
A. No.
Q. When did Romberg for the first time have to recognize that he was concerned with experiments which could result in death?
A. No must have recognized that for the first time when it was tried to persuade Rascher to desist from conducting these experiments which could result in death; and it is then that Romberg for the first time had the certainty that experiments were conducted which could result in death.
Q. What did you tell him? Do you remember what you told him?
A. I know that I met him in the corridor of the hospital and tint he was just about to go to the X-ray Station. I cannot give you the exact words but approximately I told him: "Doctor, murder is happening back thorn. An SS man took a man there. Rascher wants to conduct an experiment which will result in death and I am sure this man was not condemned to death." I told him, "Come along with me," and he wont along with me to Rascher's room, where these matters were discussed. That is my recollection.
Q. How often did you approach Romberg on that matter?
A. Only with reference to these 2 cases which happened on the same day.
Q. And in both cases Romberg successfully prevented these experiments being carried through?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you later approach Romberg since you had such good successes after your original conversation with Romberg?
A. In this case the SS man who worked there in the hospital took an experimental subject there and I know he had never received an order to do that by the Camp Administration However, if the Camp Administration or rather people on the staff of the Camp Administration had people brought to those experiments, I, as an inmate, could not interfere in any way at all.
Q. Could Romberg have prevented it had he wanted to?
A. If the man came from the Camp Administration, Romberg could not have prevented it.
Q. Are you of the conviction that if it had depended on Romberg alone there would not have been any death experiments during those high altitude experiments?
A. I am of the conviction that if Romberg had had the order to conduct these experiments alone, without Rascher, there would have been no death cases.
Q. Now let us turn to this one experiment where you told us about the autopsy at the altitude of 10,000 meters. Wore you at that time in the low-pressure chamber?
A. No.
Q. Where did you observe this from?
A. From the corridor where there were 2 windows I was in a position to observe.
Q. Did you see that Romberg became air sick?
A. Yes.
Q. Who conducted the autopsy?
A. It was conducted by 2 inmates who came from the merge and who were present in the low-pressure chamber.
Q. Did Romberg participate in the autopsy?
A. No.
Q. Were you over actually present in the low-pressure chamber during experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear, as Dr. Romberg maintains, that during one experiment when he was present and had not known that it was an experiment which was to result in death after he saw the Ekg (electrocardiogram) he told Rascher that he had to stop under all circumstances because there was an immediate danger? Did you over hear anything about that? Did you hear that Romberg said suck things to Rascher?
A. I can't remember having hoard him make such statements.
Q. Where were you during these experiments? Were you close to them?
A. Sometimes I was near the motor but mostly I was in the dark room with the Ekg strip.
Q. But it is quite possible that Romberg made such statements to Dr. Rascher without your being in a position to hear it?
A. Yes.
Q. During this high-altitude experiment could you not observe, during tho autopsy, I mean, that was performed at 10,000 meter altitude, that Romberg made any signs to Dr. Rascher asking kin to discontinue the experiment?
A. I remember that after Romberg became unconscious and the pressure was considerably decreased until Romberg regained consciousness, that ho wanted to discontinue the experiment and that he made a motion to Rascher indicating that he wanted to go outside. But then Rascher ordered that tho altitude be increased anew.
THE PRESIDENT: It is time for tho Tribunal to recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 18 Dec.
1946)
THE MARSHALL: The Military Tribunal is again in session.
WALTER NEFF -- Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION -Continued BY DR. VORWERK: (counsel for defendant Romberg) Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
DR. HARX: (counsel for defendant Prof. Dr. Schroeder):
Q When, on the 22nd of February, 1942, the car with the chamber arrived, were the Luftwaffe personnel with it?
A No, I did not see any personnel with the car.
Q You spoke, when you were examined, that several times high Luftwaffe officers visited the station. Now, I ask you did you know any of these officers visited the station. Now, I ask you did you know any of these officers by name?
A No.
Q Were these officers from the Munich Luftgau district?
A I do not know.
Q You speak of great differences between Dr. Rascher and Prof. Holzloehner; what was the cause of this, and what observation did you make?
A Prof. Holzloehner wanted to conduct the experiments under anesthetics. Dr. Rascher opposed this. I know that in this respect he wrote a report to the Reichsfuehrer criticizing Rascher and Finke for not letting him work, because he wanted to conduct the experiments under anesthetics.
Q Was it not so that Prof. Holzloehner quarreled with Rascher on other parts too? And he wanted to avoid a fatal outcome of the experiments, under all circumstances?
A I know that Prof. Holzloehner did not have any deaths in connection with any experiments with water. The deaths took place in the reviving, in the Holzloehner experiments; but whether there was any quarrel between Rascher and Finke and Prof. Holzloehner in this respect I do not know.
Q Was the separation rather abrupt, or were there several differences between the two, and what was the occasion for the final elimination of Holzloehner? -680
A The elimination of Holzloehner and the substitution of Finke came about, because in the hot water baths they had found, or had sought to find, an aid to the people. A final report was dictated which all three gentlemen signed, Holzloehner and Finke, and Rascher later on.
Q But it was so, was it not, that Prof. Holzloehner wanted to have the experimental subjects treated as painlessly as possible, and Rascher opposed it, and said that the people unconscious to the ice water?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether there was any order or assignment from LuftgauAmt 7?
A I do not know whether there was an order from the Luftgau-Amt 7, or not.
Q Well, did Rascher then report to this Luftgau-Amt 7?
A Yes.
Q Did you yourself see these reports?
A The secretary pf the station, to whom these reports were dictated, had to make three or four copies of these reports. And, as Top Secret, these reports were sent to the Standartenfuehrer Dr. Sievers and to the Luftgau-Amt 7. How long the Luftgau Medical Office received these reports, I do not know. Whether they received them until the end of the experiments, I do not know.
Q You were speaking of a Luftgau Medical Office, but there was no such office; isn't that the Luftgau-physician?
A No. "Luftgau Office" or "Luftgau Medical office; The Luftgau Medical Office 7", Munich I think.
Q Then, there w s a distribution list on those reports?
A Yes.
Q Was it always the same?
A I don't know.
Q Was it changed, from place to place?
A I don't know.
Q Did these reports refer to both to the high altitude experiments and to the cold experiments, or only to the latter?
A I know them only with reference to the latter.
Q Were there any gentlemen from this Luftgau Medical Office Munich 7, as you call it; were any gentlemen present at the station, to your knowledge?
A There were Luft-Gau-officers from the station, but whether they were from the Gau Medical Office or not, I do not know.
Q Could one see, from any indications, whether they were medical officers or whether they were pure Luftgau officers; couldn't you have told whether they were medical officers; wouldn't you have been able to conclude that, from what they said?
A I know that officers with the medical staff were there. The talks were always in Rascher's room, so that I could not know anything about them.
Q Did you recognize the medical insignia?
A Yes, I did.
DR. MARK: Then I have no further questions to put to the witness.
DR. WILIE: (Counsel for defendant George August Weltz.)
Q Witness, I have a few brief questions to put to you, to supplement your testimony of yesterday and today. You have stated, among other things, that you did not see Prof. Weltz in Dachau, but, If I may say so, that you saw him accidentally one day talking to Dr. Rancher in front of the building of the Luftgau-Kommand in Munich; the question is: Do you remember, approximately what day?
A No.
Q Put, perhaps you can say, since you remember the 22nd of February so well, was it before or after that time, before or after your birthday.
A It was rather late. It was later. It could only have been from the 15 of September, '42, until June '44.
Q That is, at a time when Dr. Rascher had already left Luftgau-Amt 7 in Munich?
A No.
Q Do you know when he left that position?
A I know that he were a Luftwaffe uniform, as far as I can recall, until August '43.
Q The fact in and of itself that he were a Luftwaffe uniform, would not make it rue, that he was assigned to Luftgau 7. No was originally at Schongau.