In China I had much to do with such mass problems in case of floods and famines. At the same time I had the advantage, of course, of having been afflicted with tyqhus once and therefore not being in so much danger. These were probably the reasons it was asked I be relived from the Luftwaffe for those two months. I am a general hygienist from the start and only later did I study tropical hygiene without giving up general hygiene work. In the Luftwaffe I was the consultant for general hygiene and not tropical hygiene alone.
Q. Did you work in the laboratory on tyqhus questions?
A. No, I never dealt with typhus research in the laboratory. During my entire scientific career I never had one ricketsia culture in my laboratory and I never produced one centimeter of typhus vaccine myself.
Q. Did you have anything to do with testing typhus vaccines?
A. Never in my life did I myself test typhus vaccine or have it tested by one of my collaborators or any other person.
Q. During the war in Germany state regulations were issued as to the testing of typhus vaccine. Did you have anything to do with working out those regulations?
A. No, nothing whatever. I never participated in conferences concerning these regulations, nor was I invited to participate. I never gave any expert opinion about them. I knew such regulations existed but to this date I have not seen them. Since I never participated in these conferences, I do not know for certain who it was that worked out these regulations although I could make some assumptions since I knew who in Germany actually dealt with typhus.
Q. But Mr. McHaney called you the closest collaborator of Professor Gildemeister in connection with typhus vaccine, on page 1176 of the German transcript.
A. That is a very erroneous assumption on the part of Mr. McHaney. It is entirely incorrect.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I would like to offer two affidavits from Rose Document Book No. 2. That is Document 16 on page 1 to 3 as Rose Exhibit 12.
This is an affidavit dated February 3, 1947, by the present director of the Robert Koch Institute, Geheimer Obermedizinalrat Professor Dr. Otto Lentz, Berlin. I should like to read, this affidavit beginning with paragraph 2 of page 1:
"Professor Rose was not the 'typhus expert' of the Robert Koch Institute nor did he work on typhus there, but he was the chief of the Department of Tropical Medicine and was in this capacity, with the exception of one research job about the transmission of dysentery and typhus baccilli by insects, exclusively concerned with tropical diseases and health parasites (insects). The typhus expert of the institute was rather Professor Haagen, the chief of the Virus Department. After his departure following his appointment to the Chair of Hygiene at Strassbourg University, Professor Gildemeister, then president of the Institute, continued the research on typhus.
"Thus various physicians, among them Dr. Ding, received instruction on typhus from Professor Haagen in the Virus Department, but not from Professor Rose.
"Owing to the destruction by air raids of many of the files of the Robert Koch Institute, I can no longer ascertain whether Professor Rose was associated with regulations for testing typhus. Several of the men who were at that time departmental chiefs, however, assured me unanimously that this had not been the case.
"Professor Rose was never engaged in the preparation of yellow fever vaccine at the Robert Koch Institute, either. For, although yellow fever is a tropical disease, it was dealt with in the virus department, as it is caused by a virus. The special installations necessary for modern virus research, such as, for instance, a high vacuum pump and an intense coding installation, did not exist at all in the Department of Tropical Medicine. Research work on yellow fever too at the Robert Koch Institute was in the hands of Professor Haagen until 1941 and afterwards in the hands of Professor Gildemeister.
"The research on hepatitis at the Robert Koch Institute was also exclusively carried out by the Virus Department (Haagen-Gildemeister). Thus Stabsarzt Dr. Domen was detailed to Gildemeister's department and he is not known to have had any connections with Professor Rose or with members of the Department of Tropical Medicine.
"Finally, nothing is know of Professor Rose's having had the opportunity t be aware of Geheicrat Lockemann's chemo-therapeutical work.
(Chemotherapy of abdominal typhoid with Otrhemin.) The only research on abdominal typhus carried on in Rose's department consisted of the experiments on the role of the house fly in the transmission of dysentery caused by bacteria and of abdominal typhus.
"I am the present Director of the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin."
Berlin 5 February 1947 Then follows the signature and certification.
Doctor -
A May I shortly interrupt? On Page 2 of this Document in the English Document Book, it says and this is exactly how it was read by the interpreter: "Whether Professor Rose was associated with the decisions taken on typhus experiment." I may point out to you that it says in the German original Document, "Whether Professor Rose had something to do with the regulations for testing typhus." Regulations for testing refers to the state regulation for the testing of typhus vaccines, about which you asked me a few moments ago wherein the English translation here awakens the impression as if the Robert Koch Institute carried on negotiations about typhus experiments. In the English translations of the Document Books there are really very surprisingly few errors but unfortunately there is a mistake here on a very decisive question and I think an official correction will have to be made.
THE PRESIDENT: Repeat that slowly, will you?
THE WITNESS: This is Page 2, fifth and sixth line in the English book and in the German book it is the second page and the sixth and seventh line.
JUDGE SEBRING: Read, if you please, what you think the correct English translation should be.
THE WITNESS: According to my knowledge of English it should read, "Whether Professor Rose took part in setting up regulations for testing, regarding typhus, regulations for testing regarding typhus.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, may I request whether the Interpretation Department in the court room concur with Dr. Rose's interpretation of this sentence?
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, if I could look at the German Document book I could tell you.
THE WITNESS: I give as translation: "Whether Professor Rose took part in setting up regulations for testing regarding typhus."
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, I think this seems to: be a correct translation.
JUDGE SEBRING: The one suggested by Professor Rose or the one appearing in the book.
THE INTERPRETER: The one suggested by Professor Rose, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEBRING: will the witness read once more his version of the translation?
THE WITNESS: "Whether Professor Rose took part in setting up regulations for testing regarding typhus."
BY DR. FRITZ:
Q In this connection, I am offering the following Document, Document Book Rose No. 2, No, 17, as Rose Exhibit No.13. This is an affidavit by the Regierungs-Medizinalrat, Dr. Emil Wohlrab, dated 11 February 1947 to be found on pages 4 and 5 of the Document Book Rose No. 2. I should like to read this affidavit into the record; on page one starting from the second paragraph:
"I was formerly a scientific senior assistant with the State Institute for Experimental Therapy (Paul Ehrlich Institute) Frankfurt on Main, and I am at present in the capacity of epidemiologist as Regierungs-Medizinalrat (Government Medical Counsel) in the Ministry of Public Health and Welfare of the Province of Lower Saxony, Hanover.
"Professor Rose was the department chief of the department for tropical medicine of the Robert Koch Institute and was never regarded among German scientists who worked on experimental typhus research in the laboratory, as a typhus expert of the Robert Koch Institute.
I was myself a scientific assistant at the Robert Koch Institute in the year 1935 and after that I was a scientific senior assistant at the Ehrlich Institute at Frankfurt on Main, and I know that in both institutes, for reasons of good collaboration, special research was in each particular case undertaken by one department alone, unless there were special working groups. Typhus research at the Robert Koch Institute was carried out by Professor Gildemeister, who started the research together with professor Haagen at the beginning of the war. No experimental scientific work by Professor Rose about typhus problems has come to my knowledge. This statement does not refer to Professor Rose's activities in the field of the general campaign against typhus, to which he most probably had to attend within the framework of his activities as a medical officer." It is dated Hanover, 11 February 1947, then follows the signature and certification.
Professor, in the Ding Diary on the first page a session of 29 December 1941 is mentioned as the meeting from which the Buchenwald experiments originated. In that meeting you are not mentioned as a participant; but the Prosecution has submitted an affidavit of Kapo Dietsch, who was repeatedly described in the Documents as a murderer and who was working in Block 46 at Buchenwald, wherein you are mentioned as a participant in that meeting. Then Kapo Dietsch says, however, this meeting took place in November of 1941. Did you ever take part in any such meeting in November or December of 1941 and if not, did you hear about any such meeting taking place?
AAt first, the question of my participation: I neither was present during this meeting of 29 December 1941 nor can I remember ever having participated in a meeting which dealt with typhus at all, that is one during which the Under Secretary of State Conti and General oberstabsarzt Handloser participated together.
Any such meeting where those two highly played chiefs were present would have been a big affair, which I could hardly forget, because at that time I was only an Oberstabsarzt. At any rate, the record of the meeting of 29 December 1941 is available as Exhilit No. 454 for the Prosecution and it becomes apparent from that Document that I was not present.
It says there that the Robert Koch Institute was represented by Professor Dr. Gildemeister. Naturally during the course of the years I took part in many meetings where typhus was discussed, but I am quite sure that I never took part in a meeting which had the alleged contents of the meeting which is mentioned here.
In addition, Gildemeister when at first telling me about the plans for Buchenwald, and that was at the beginning of March 1942, he never told me anything about some such meeting. He only said that Conti was the one that was representing that plan. In the same way, Conti, during my lecture after the visit to Buchenwald, did not say anything about any such meeting or about any participation of Professor Handloser. At that time I considered the whole matter something to be dealt with by the civilian sector and this can also be seen from the fact to whom I turned with my objection. If at that time I had hoard of any participation of the army, I certainly would have gone to General oberstabsarzt Dr. Handloser with my objections; even though I was not subordinated to him, this matter would have been important enough to me to go to the chief of another section of the armed forces, and that I did not do this, which proves very clearly at that time I was of the opinion that the army was net all participating.
Perhaps I may now point out that the names of the participants during that meeting in both lists were obviously compiled by persons who did not have sufficient knowledge of the Berlin Ministerial competencies and personnel relations as they prevailed at the end of 1941. I know the situation as it existed on the civilian as well as the military side, and looking at these lists, I notice a number of discrepancies as follows: Schreiber at that time was not at all with the Army Medical Inspectorate, that is, on the 29th of December, 1941. He at that time was the hygienist with the Army Physician. In this capacity he represented Handloser as a "Heeres-arzt" whenever he went to Berlin from headquarters. Therefore, during the entire time in question, it never occurred that Handloser and Schreiber appeared in Berlin at the same time.
In Dr. Professor Handloser's testimony I was quite surprised that he didn't refer to this fact of which he must be quite well aware. At least one of these two gentlemen was at all times in headquarters. A. Berlin meeting at the end of 1941 with Schreiber and Handloser together as participants is quite impossible. In addition to that, I may point out that, in particular, at that particular time in December 1941; the terrible plight prevailed in the Medical Service in Russia, to which repeated reference was made in this courtroom, and it follows from that that the hygienist with the Heores-arzt certainly had other worries than interfering in the business of the Army Medical Inspectorate, which was competent for any such question dealing with typhus vaccines. Schreiber only later became the Chief of the Department I. G. and it was the matter of this Chief to accompany the Army Medical Inspectorate when dealing with such matters. Generalarzt Mueller was the Chief of I. G. in the year of 1941. The hygiene referent who also should have been present was Oberstabsarzt Schmidt. His representative was Oberstabsarzt Scholtz who is also mentioned in the record of the meeting which actually took place on the 29th of december 1941. The most capable typus expert of the Army was Professor Eyer. The consulting hygienist of the Army at that time was Professor Sartorius.
Of all these gentlemen who reasonably could have been expected to participate in such a meeting on the 29th of December, 1941, not one was mentioned. Of course, it is quite thinkable that anyone who knows of the important position which Professor Schreiber held one year after that would make that mistake if reconstructing any such meeting and would, therefore, list him as a participant.
The second point I want to mention with reference to the civilian sector is the following: Undersecretary of State Conti, naturally, would never have visited any such meeting without being accompanied by one of the three referents. These referents, however, are left out in the case of both lists.
For Reiter as well as Gildemeister did not belong to the Ministry but rather belonged to Reich Institutions, or Reich agencies, which were outside the Ministry, agencies which had no executive duties but gave only scientific opinions for the benefit of the highest Reich authorities. In that connection it may be pointed out that professor Reiter was president of the Reich Health Office and had nothing whatsoever to do with vaccines. For vaccines and infectious diseases experts of the Robert Koch Institutes were always used. If, however, these experts were used for such a meeting, always at least one of these three referents was present, as during the actual conference on 29th December 1941 Professor Bieber is mentioned as being in charge and he was the oldest one of these three referents for epidemic questions.
Thirdly, referring to my own person, Gereral-Oberstabsarzt Handloser at the end of 1941 had not yet been the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. Therefore, he could only represent the Army and not the Wehrmacht. Naturally, a conference of the Ministry of the Interior without the participation of the other branches of the Wehrmacht is quite assumable. If, however, you invite the highest level of the health authorities of the military and civilian sectors to any such meetings, and if, in addition to that, you invite the Luftwaffe, then certainly one does not invite the consulting hygienist of the Luftwaffe but the medical chief of the Luftwaffe.
He would either appear in person or he would send his chief of staff as his representative, if he for some reason could not come.
It is possible that he would bring his consulting man along, but he certainly wouldn't send him along alone, in particular since he only holds the rank of an Oberstabsarzt.
For the other participants in this meeting know very well that this consulting man has no executive functions whatsoever and, therefore, it not at all in a position to make any binding statements during any such meeting where responsible chiefs are debating; firstly, because he has no executive functions; secondly, because as a scientist cannot overlook the possibilities as they refer to executive questions. In addition, in asking the Luftwaffe to participate alongside with the Army, it was always customary to invite the Navy, too. In the case of both lists, there is no mention at all made of the Navy. Considering these discrepancies, both entries received a stamp of improbability.
Q In any case, you heard nothing about a meeting where the testing of vaccines at Buchenwald was supposedly decided upon?
A No. Neither did I personally take part in any such meeting, nor did I at any time hear of any such meeting. The meeting dated the 29th of December, 1941, a record of which was submitted here, only came to my knowledge owing to the decument of the Prosecution.
Q Then how did you come into contact at all with the testing of typhus vaccines on human beings in Buchenwald? You were in Buchenwald, weren't you?
A Yes. On one occasion I was there together with Professor Gildemeister. This visit came about in the following manner: when visiting the Robert Koch Institute, probably in early March, 1942, I spoke to Professor Gildemeister. When mentioning what period of time it is, I have to state that this is a mere estimation on my part which is given support by the statements made in the Ding Diary. I know the difference of time when I had my conversation with Gildemeister and my visit to Buchenwald, but I neither know the exact date when I was in Buchenwald nor do I know the exact date when I had my conversation with Gildemeister; and if I am now saying "early in March", I am only doing that because I assume that this date is correct, namely, the 17th of March.
However, I don't know.
Professor Gildemeister on the occasion of this visit told me that upon investigation of Dr. Conti, the protective value of the various typhus vaccines was to be tested by making experiments on human beings at Buchenwald in the vicinity of Weimar. He said that the reason for these experiments was the difference of opinions on the part of the experts dealing with that question which could not be overbridged regarding the value of the various procedures of production.
Gildemeister said that the experiments are to be carried out on criminals who had been condemned to death. I was very surprised at hearing that, and impulsively rejected that plan. I offered my opinion to the effect that this plan was not in accordance with what should be used in the case of vaccine procedure. It was not in accordance with the tradition of vaccine procedure and in addition to that I thought that animal experiments were completely sufficient in the case of typhus vaccine investigation.
I was rather indignant and I said if this procedure was to be custom we could hand over to an executioner all of the immunity science or a department fob executions at our institute. Gildemeister obviously was rather indignant about the soverety of my reaction since our personal relationship was not friendly. He told me that he had been invited to look at how these experiments were progressing at Buchenwald, and he said that before making any utterances of that nature Is should at first convince myself exactly what was happening there and how it was happening there; and he said he would see to it that I would get permission to enter the camp in order to look at it. A few days later he telephoned me and told me the date of the journey, as well as that he had to permission for me to enter the camp. Gildemeister neither at that time, nor on any other occasion, told me that he was actively participating in the planning and executing of the experiments.
Q Did you accept this invitation?
A Yes, a few days after this telephone conversation I took a train to Weimar to ether with Professor Gildemeister and from there went to Buchenwald by car. Here we were lead through the camp by a physician into a hospital which was separated by some barbed wire. There we were lead through a number of stations. I don't know the name of the physician or the names of any other persons who were introduced to me at Buchenwald, I cannot remember. I am sure however it was not Dr. Ding because it was said that he; had infected himself while carrying out these experiments and had fallen ill of typhus. The accompanying physicians stated that the individual groups had been treated with a number of typhus vaccines and were later injected with typhus virus. He said that one group was infected without previously being vaccinated. The patients of the group that was not vaccinated made a very ill impression The entire station represented a picture of a typical station with patients who were suffering from severe typhus. The ?onral impression in the case of other stations that of less ill patients. In the laboratory we were shown the fever charts of the individual patient. There the dif ference of the course of the illness with or without vaccination could easily be recognized from looking at these favor charts.
Since it is extremely difficult to comapre 140 fever charts with one another, the individual charts of the various groups were summarized in order to,report the average charts of the various groups at night. Next morning these summarized charts were shown to us, and locking at these average charts the difference come to light in even much c?carer way. We stayed over night in a barracks outside the camp, we were once more shown the patient on the next day. During that visit the physician of the hospital introduced two inmates who belonged, to the group that was not vaccinated but who had not fallen ill. This was at first a great surprise for the physicians who participated in the experiments, for 120 or however many were vaccinated, had all fallen ill. The renewed examination of the case history of those two patients had shown, however that they during their stay in prison in Berlin, had suffered typhus, that is while they were in Berlin and before they were sentenced. T?cy however had said, that they fell ill of influenza when questioned before. The physician added that every one was quite upset about that at first because one intentionally only used German criminals for that experiments, for in case of criminals of the East one always had to take into account that at some earlier time they had already one through typhus. In the case of Germans,however one thought there was no such possibility. In evaluating the experiments those two patients who had not fallen ill became specially important because it was proven thought them that the natural immunity protected against the infection technique, while none of the vaccines actually protected any one against the infection. The vaccines only mitigated the course of the illness and prevented any fatalities.I took the noon train from Weimar to Berlin, Professor Gildemesiter on the other hand used a later train.
Q In his commentary on Ding's diary on the 17 March, 1942 Mr. McHaney said, page 1179 of the German transcripts-I shall quote this passage:
" Here we find that the defendant Rose with his friend and superior, Professor Gildemeister, visited Buchenwald and was present at the experiments, including injections performed on the inmates of concentration camps."
New, I ask you, were you present when concentration camp inmates were injected?
A No, it becomes clearly apparent from the entry in the diary that my visit occurred at a period of time when all experimental subjects already had fever. According to Dings diary, the infections were carried out on the 5 January 1942, for the first time, and on the 7 Januar; 1942 for the second time, and on the 3 march 1942 for the third time the latter time,alledgedly in the presence of Professor Gildemeister and that was the 4th day before my only visit to Buchenwald.
Q Mr. McHaney said further in the same commentary, and I quote: " The defendant Rose will not wish to deny that he visited Buchenwald. He will admit that he was there." Now I ask you did you ever deny that you visited Buchenwald or that you had knowledge of that first typhus experiments?
A No, I never did. I never denied it. On the other hand, during my lecture in Basle on the 17 February l944, I said that I myself saw Ding's experimental subjects. The lecture will be submitted here as a document. I said that too during the third meeting of the consulting physicians on the occasion of Ding's lecture. In addition I said that when I was interrogated at letimere in June 1945, and I stated that when interrogated for the only time here by the Prosecution in Nuernberg before I had any knowledge whatsoever about the existence of Ding's diary, or any other documents of the Prosecution.
Q According to the transcript of the same session Mr. McHaney went on to say:
" We saw that the Robert Koch Institute delivered the virus through the defendant Rose, with which these unfortunate victims were infected." I ask you, did you deliver typhus virus for the infection of experamental subjects an Buchenwald?
A You obviously mean the comment to the entry of the diary of the 26 January 1943, don't you?
Q Yes, I beg your pardon, page 1182 of the German transcript.
A No, I never delivered any such virus. I wouldn't have been in a position to do so because neither myself nor my department were in the possession of typhus virus. I never had typhus vaccine at my disposal and for that reason I never could have delivered any such virus to anyone else. The entry in the diary upon which Mr. McHaney commented reads as follows: "26 January 1943 artificial infection with egg yolk virus, operation No. 223 and 226, Ricketsia Prowazecki strain from the Robert Koch Institute." The addition of my name to this entry obviously is based upon Mr. McHaney's knowledge. Where he got this knowledge from, however, I don't know. At any rate this knowledge cannot be reliable because this statement is incorrect.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal now will be in recess until 09:30 Monday morning.
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 April 1947, 1015, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will be seated.
The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
The Secretary General will also note for the record that Tribunal I convened this morning at 10:15 o'clock due to delay in the broadcasting system.
Counsel may proceed.
GERHARD ROSE - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. FRITZ (Counsel for the defendant Rose):
Q Professor, at the end of the session on Friday I had read you some commentaries which Mr. McHaney had made on entries in the Ding Diary. The last one was about an entry of 26 January 1943. I have two brief questions on this subject. On the 26th of January, l943, were you Vice President of the Robert Koch Institute?
A No, my appointment as Vice President was either on the 1st of March or the 1st of April, 1943. I myself was informed of it only later because at that time I was with the Wehrmacht and, in effect, this appointment never was in operation because my service with the Wehrmacht took all my time.
Q Did you learn that the Robert Koch Institute delivered typhus virus for infection?
A No, I did not learn that. Therefore, I cannot even say whether the entry is correct or not, and, therefore, I do not know whether the head of the typhus department, Professor Gildemeister, was informed for what purpose the virus was to be used which he delivered, assuming that he did deliver any and that the entry is correct.
Q Professor, on Friday you had already told the Tribunal your experience when you visited Buchenwald. Now, I should like to come back to this visit. I ask you what conclusions did you draw from this visit of yours to Buchenwald and what you saw there?
A That was in part described by the testimony of the witness Mrs. Block. After my return to Berlin I had State Secretary Conti's office called up and informed that I had been in Buchenwald, and, at the suggestion of Professor Gildemeister I had watched the typhus experiments. I asked State Secretary Conti for an appointment for a personal consultation. Dr. Conti had my private secretary given an appointment. I went to see the State Secretary and I told him briefly what I had seen, but then I said that I had not come about the details of these experiments but about the fundamental problems connected with this question. Gildemeister had told me, I said, that the experiments were made at the instigation of State Secretary Conti. Now, human experiments in infectious diseases were nothing new, of course, but to make the admissibility of certain vaccines dependent on their use in human experiments deviated from all tradition of testing vaccines if the experiment was a matter of life and death. For four decades hygiene knew the problem of testing vaccines and the traditional procedure was to test the compatibility and protective effect of a vaccine by animal experiments. If these experiments were satisfactory, then the tolerance in human beings was tested and the dose to be used determined in these experiments. Then, with serological and cutaneous reactions, an attempt is made to determine what change has occurred.
Although one knows exactly that these reactions are not a reliable measurement of immunity, then one waits for a natural exposure of the vaccinated persons to determine the epidemiological success, and this epidemiological success is measured by comparing the effects on vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. Earlier, artificial infections may have occurred here and there may have been undertaken here and there exceptions, but not in diseases which might be fatal. In such a definite change from previous procedure, I would have considered it necessary that at least the authorities of the field in question that is, in this case typhus - Gildemeister, Otto, Eyer, Haagen, Bickhardt, Bieling and Wohlrab - that they should be asked first whether they considered such a very significant step absolutely essential.
Q Now, what was State Secretary Conti's answer?
A First, Conti asked me whether Gildemeister knew that I was coming or whether Gildemeister had sent me. I said "no". Then Conti said in answer that he too had had misgivings before he had decided to take this step. The seriousness of the danger of typhus, however, made extraordinary measures necessary. In the Government General, that is, in Occupied Poland a serious typhus epidemic had already broken out. The Russian prisoners of war had, to a considerable extent, brought typhus into the Reich territory. In all posts, camps and prisons within the Reich there had already been local epidemics. How it was in the Wehrmacht I had to know better than he, he said, but he had had rather extremely disturbing news from that source too. According to the experience of the Ministry, hundreds of thousands of human lives were at stake and he, the State Secretary, and not the scientists had the responsibutlity for the measures which had to be taken. In view of this emergency, he had had to subordinate his misgivings which he had had just as I had. He could not wait for epidemiological statistics which might give a clear answer only after years or perhaps only after decades according to experience. He could not wait so long if there was a possibility, with a small price of human lives, to learn the correct measures to protect hundreds of thousands.
He was a doctor just as well as I and valued human life just as highly as I, but in wartime, when millions of the best and completely innocent must sacrifice their lives, the parasite of society must also be required to make his contribution to the general welfare. Now, as for my suggestion that the specialists be consulted, he had considered it sufficient to have his staff inform him about the whole matter but, in the future, he would be glad to remember my suggestion in suitable cases.
Q Did you say anything more?
A I emphasized again that I was interested in the fundamental question and that I could not change my views on that, and I added that I did not believe that the results at Buchenwald would be very different than the results of the animal experiments. I must say expressly that I said this to Mr. Conti at that time but that the later course of events proved clearly that I was wrong in this assumption. The Buchenwald experiments gave considerable information in addition to what we knew at the time on the basis of animal experiments. The State Secretary then dismissed me with the words that even though he could not agree with my views, he wanted to thank me for having come to him. He much preferred hearing objections than always to be surrounded by "yes-men".
Q Did you report to Professor Gildemeister about your discussion with Conti?
A Yes, that was my official obligation. I had to report regularly to my immediate superior about every conference which I had with higher offices. Therefore, I reported this conference subsequently to President Gildemeister. He was very much annoyed because it was about a fundamental question and a question which was his special field. He said that I had overstepped my authority and that I had intervened in things which were none of my business. He also made further rather violent reproaches at the time and said that I was presumptuous, that I thought I had better ethics than my colleagues and that my discipline and my understanding for authority in general questions were not satis factory.
I had no sense for authority or for colleaguality.
Q Why didn't you discuss your visit to Conti beforehand with Professor Gildemeister?
A That President Gildemeister had a different view than I was obvious from our first discussions on the subject and also from the discussions in the evening on the visit to Buchenwald. It was clear to me that if I told Gildemeister of my intended visit to Conti that he would forbid it. He had the right to do so. He was my superior. I was only a department director at the institute at the time. From the point of view of civil service, Gildemeister was quite correct. It was true, that I had gone over his head and that I had interferred with my criticism in a field with which I had nothing to do in the institute. Typhus was Gildemeister's field, not mine, but in the whole matter, as I told Conti, I was not interested in the problem of typhus especially, but the fundamental problem of experiments on human beings and I felt that I was concerned and I felt justified in speaking.
Q Did you not have to expect Conti to Reproach you for going over Gildemeister's head and talking to him?
A No, this danger didn't exist. I had met Conti for the first time during the resettlement. The health service of the resettlement project was directly under him, and in individual cases I had seen clearly that Conti placed great value on being in direct contact with subordinate doctors and definitely was not interested in whether the intermediate authorities liked it or not. Conti was anything but a bureaucrat. He was in definite opposition to Gildemeister on such questions. Gildemeister was very much concerned with observing the correct form and going through channels. Moreover, it was such an important matter that I would not have cared much for a violation of form. I knew from the beginning that Gildemeister would object.