I asked him if they were permissible if the State ordered them and he said that he would oppose that himself. I asked him if his point of view was not rather out of date and when a State that rules a great part of the earth considers it permissible to order such things, then perhaps the expert who is here to testify as a witness will arrive at a different conclusion and will correct his point of view, will admit that it is out of date. That is the very core of my defense of my client.
JUDGE SEBRING: I think it might be entirely proper if you produced other witnesses to show that the view entertained by this man on the witness stand is hopelessly out of date, as you say, but I am unable to see where, assuming that this document speaks of something that will be delineated as a medical experiment, the fact that this document speaks of such an experiment does not in and of itself serve to upset this man's point of view, he was in the hopeless minority in the matter and it would then be for the Tribunal to consider, from all of the evidence before it, what it considered a proper approach to the matter. But personally I fail to see the probative value of the inquiry as it is circumscribed by the text of the document which you have presented to him.
THE PRESIDENT: I am in entire accord with judge Sebring in failing to find any materiality in handing this document to the witness. Counsel may ask the witness if the witness is aware that other physicians of repute may hold other opinions, but this is not counsel's witness, nor is he an opposing witness. He is a witness called by another defendant. Counsel has the privilege of interrogating him --did interrogate him, asked him questions, and the witness answered him.
The witness is not subject to cross-examination or examination. He is not an adverse witness. We do not know of his position in regard to any other defendant. Counsel may ask the witness if the witness is aware that other physicians hold ideas which do not coincide with his.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I assumed that since the witness has a different point of view than that of the defense, that he was an inimical witness and that I could put everything to him necessary to refute his point of view. Do I understand from the President that I should put no further questions to the witness?
THE PRESIDENT: No, it was not that. The witness was called by another defendant. You are now trying to cross-examine the witness as to questions which you yourself asked him. But counsel may ask the witness if the witness is aware that other physicians of repute in other communities, hold contrary ideas to his own.
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Witness, are you aware that other physicians do not share your opinion but consider such experiments permissible?
A. I believe without any further question that all doctors do not share my point of view; but if I may make a remark about this document, it is a question. The question is whether children with Meningocoele are to be operated on or not, but may I tell you that the lives of a part of these children could be saved.
JUDGE SEBRING: Witness, suppose you start over. I don't think the interpreter got that. Will you start over please.
A. It can be seen from this document indubitably that not all children which are born, suffering with Meningocoele, are to be subjected to these experiments that were planned, but.....
Q. Witness, where do you get that idea? They must be reported?
A. All are to be reported but it must be assumed as a matter of course that from those who report, a selection will be made as to which are to be experimented on, because if all children with Meningocoele are to report, then part of them certainly could not be considered for the experiment because they could be operated on and their lives could be saved. I must again point out that medicine Knows no eternal laws but simply pragmatic rules.
Q. Witness, then what does Meningocoele have to do with disturbances of the kidney?
A. That cannot be answered in general. I do not believe that the cases here were chosen because there was some connection between kidney disorder and meningocoele but because par of the children with meningocoele, namely those with a very serious infection, could only be expected to live a very short time. Others could survive.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal allowed the witness to discuss this document not with standing the Tribunal held that the document was not properly before the witness but that matter has been allowed and it is now in the record.
Any further questions of the witness on the part of defense counsel?
The Prosecution may cross-examine.
CR0SS*EXAMINATI0N BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, I shall attempt to be brief and would appreciate your answering my questions briefly so that we may finish this afternoon. First of all, I want to discuss with you the events which took place at the meeting of the consulting physicians at the Military Medical academy in May 1943, more specifically the lecture given by Dr. Ding. Now was it possible for a listener, such as yourself, a man who was an expert on tropical medicine, to have readily ascertained after hearing Dr. Ding's lecture, that the experimental subjects used by Dr. Ding were inmates of a concentration camp?
A. I cannot remember now whether it only became apparent from the discussion.
Q. Well, now, you have stated that after the lecture a discussion took place and the discussion was opened by Professor Rose, is that correct? Did I understand you correctly that the first one to speak after Ding's lecture was completed was Professor Rose?
A. As far as I remember, Professor Rose was the first out to speak.
Q. And then first of all spoke on the subject itself, that is, typhus research, and then he proceeded to chastise Ding for the manner in which he carried out the experiments, is that correct.?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, now, will you kindly tell the Tribunal as well as you can remember, that is, verbatim or substantially, just what Dr. Rose said?
A. During my testimony this morning I endeavored to report his speech as well as I am in a position to do so today after a period of 4 years has elapsed.
Q. Well, will you kindly repeat it again for me, doctor?
A. Professor Rose said approximately that this was a case of experiments on human beings, that fatalities had occurred in that connection and that he considered that this was a very serious fundamental question since any such procedure cannot be brought in conformity with the tradition of research of immunity. He further said that no essential results had been achieved in the course of these experiments which could not also have been derived from epidemiological observations. For that reason he said he was of the opinion that one should maintain the traditions that one would maintain medical tradition, and therefore reject any such procedure.
Q. Nell, now before Rose-- pardon me. You and I alike know Professor Rose to be a very emotional person; did Professor Rose at the time of this observation become very excited?
A. I would say that he didn't get any more excited than was his custom occasionally during discussions.
Q. Well, now, did you gather or did Professor Rose say it outright, -- I will first ask you, did you gather that Rose considered that these experiments at Buchenwald were in he elicited these fatalities had occurred, to be just common murder?
A. I don't quite understand your question.
Q. Well, did Rose consider this just plain murder, these experiments at Buchenwald?
A. He didn't use that expression.
Q. Well, did you understand Rose to mean that?
A. That was to be concluded from his answer indirectly.
Q. Well, now were you aware of the fact that Professor Rose had himself visited Buchenwald prior to this meeting?
A. No.
Q. Well, do you know that Professor Rose visited Buchenwald with Professor Gildemeister and saw the operation in April 1942 a year before?
A. I am only hearing that now.
Q. And then a year later Rose strenuously objected at this meeting before the consulting physicians; and now is it clearer for you to understand why Rose objected, or was it clear from the lecture of Ding that experimental subjects used were human beings?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. What I am trying, to make clear, Doctor, is whether or not you were able to ascertain at that meeting that concentration camp inmates were used in these experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is Rose had not visited Buchenwald one year prior to that time would he still have been able to ascertain from the lecture of Dr. Ding that experiments had been conducted on human beings in the concentration camp?
A. I cannot remember that, because I no longer know whether that clearly became apparent from the lecture.
Q. Well, then did the objection by Professor Rose come as a complete surprise?
A. Yes, for me.
Q. Well, now would you consider it possible that Professor Rose would later on have sent vaccines to Buchenwald to be tested there?
A. No.
Q. Then in summation you felt assured that Rose considered this work at Buchenwald to be more or less a scientific method of murder?
A. Yes
Q. Now, doctor, we have discussed here this morning yellow fever, malaria, typhus and other problems; I have one or two questions along those lines. Could you tell us as an expert how one could test the effectiveness of a tropical vaccine except by artificial infection subsequent to vaccination; by that I mean, how would it be possible for us to test here in Nurnberg a vaccine for yellow fever in as much as yellow fever is a tropical disease, without first artificially infecting the subject upon whom we are to test the efficacy of the vaccine? Do you understand what I mean, doctor?
A. I believe, yes. One could do that in the mentioned mice test.
Q. You would have to first artificially infect the mice, wouldn't you?
A. Not the mouse that is Used in the test alone, but mice would have to be available where yellow fever virus is present in their brain. This brain containing virus has been mixed with the serum of the human being to be examined, and then again injected into other mice.
Q. Well, now, doctor, if we were going to have experiments on human beings here in Nurnberg, we would have to first artificially infect the human beings with the yellow fever virus in order to test the efficacy of the vaccine, and bear in mind now, Doctor, I am not speaking of compatibility tests?
A. Do you mean compatibility tests?
Q. I mean to test the efficacy of the vaccine, not a compatibility test.
A. Efficacy,--not it is not necessary at all. One can ascertain the efficacy of the vaccine by using the mice test. Here is the case of yellow fever there is one excep tion.
only in the case of yellow fever can one decide by using the serum of a human being to what extent he would be immune.
Q. Well then, Doctor, in the case of yellow fever it is a fact, is it not, that tests on human beings are not necessary to determine the efficacy of a yellow fever vaccine?
A. Yes, that is the efficacy regarding the protection against yellow fever infection.
Q. And you, as a medical man, would not use human beings to test the efficacy of a yellow fever vaccine?
A. No, it is only necessary when examining the comparability in particular in view of the question of serum hepatitis; serum hepatitis only occurs in the case of human beings.
Q. Now you have stated here, Doctor, that infectious hepatitis is a rather disagreeable and serious complication, resulting from yellow fever vaccine infections. I did not quite understand, that. Would, you clarify that for me, please?
A. Every smallest disorder, which includes the so-called direct vaccination reactions or undesirable complications which are to be avoided by physicians whenever possible.
Q. Now, you say that this occurred in connection with the British and American vaccines. Did that also occur in connection with the German vaccine?
A. In the case of German yellow fever vaccines, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. Well now, Dr. Haagen, Dr. Eugen Haagen, was the first one to develop a yellow fever strain here in Germany, was he not?
A. Haagen had worked in New York on yellow fever questions and as far as I know there was neither a virulent yellow fever strain nor an adulterated yellow fever strain available in any German laboratory.
Q. Well then, would you state that the vaccines which were used here would not contain that hepatitis condition which was created by the American and English vaccines?
A. That, one could not know before hand.
Q. Well now, Doctor, is hepatitis a rather serious disease?
A. On the average, no.
Q. Well, let's take it in itself. Suppose we go to the Orient; would hepatitis be considered a serious disease?
A. I know that in the Balkans hepatitis is spread among the population and mostly is considered as a harmless child diseases
Q. What I am getting at, Doctor, would you consider hepatitis to be in the same category as a bad cold, a little more serious than that, isn't it?
A. It takes longer, but I can see from having read an English thesis on the subject that it is not a very serious disease, where artificial infection with hepatitis was used in order to treat rheumatism of the limbs, in the same way as malaria is used in order to treat paralysis. However, there was no success in that method, that is, trying to influence the rheumatism of the limbs.
Q. Doctor, you have stated or mentioned here the Oath of Hippocrates. Now from hearing your testimony I can readily understand that you abide by the Oath of Hippocrates to the letter. Is the Oath of Hippocrates recognized as the guiding staff in the medical profession here in Germany like in all other countries?
A. I don't know to what extent the oath is known abroad. To be sure, it is often quoted in literature abroad. It is the only written guiding directive which exists about the professional ethical fundamentals of medicine; that is, generally speaking.
Q. Thank you, Doctor, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions to the witness? If not, the witness may be excused.
(The witness is excused.)
DR. FRITZ (Counsel for the defendant Rose): Mr. President, with the approval of the Tribunal I should now like to call the defendant Rose to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Has counsel any documents which he could introduce within the next half hour without putting the defendant Rose on the stand right now?
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, it was my intention to read the documents and introduce them during the examination of the defendant Rose. This is how I have prepared ay presentation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal does not have any desire to interfere with the orderly presentation of the case by counsel, so the Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 18 April 1947.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 18 April 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, the Defendant Rose to this date is charged by the prosecution on Count No. 1 with the conspiracy, in Count No. 2 with participation in the yellow jaundice experiments, typhus experiments and experiments involving yellow fever, smallpox, paratyphus A and B, cholera and diphtheria. In addition there to, the Defendant Rose has been charged with participation in biological warfare, more specifically, participation in the organization of Blitzableiter, also the malaria experiments. In Count No. 3 it follows that he is charged with the same.
At this time the prosecution withdraws all charges against the Defendant Rose save the charge of conspiracy in Count No. 1, the charge of participation in the typhus experiments in Count No. 2 and the participation in the malaria experiments in Count No. 2, and in Count No. 3, participation in the same, as set forth in Count No. 2.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel for the prosecution prepare a written statement to that effect.
MR. HARDY: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And file it with the Tribunal in the office of the Secretary-General.
MR. HARDY: Yes, your Honor.
DR. HEINZ FRITZ (Counsel for Defendant Rose): Mr. President, with the approval of the Tribunal, I am now calling the Defendant Rose to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Rose will take the witness stand. The witness will be sworn.
DR. GERHARD ROSE, a defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Raise your right hand, please, repeating after me before the Tribunal:
I swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HEINZ FRITZ (Counsel for the Defendant Rose):
Q Professor Rose, at first a few questions as to your personality. Will you state your full name.
A Gerhard August Heinrich Rose.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on the 10th of November 1096 at Danzig in Western Prussia as a German. I have always retained German citizenship, although my home was separated from Germany in the year of 1920.
Q Would you please very briefly describe your professional career, and, at first, up to the time you completed your medical studies.
A Gymnasium at Stettin, Dusseldorf, Bremen and then Breslau. These changes came about owing to my father's transfers who was a senior civil servant. I made my matriculation on the 9th of March 1914, and from 1914 until 1921 I studied medicine. I did my military service at the Second Guard Regiment with the Infantry, and I went through the war with that regiment from 1914 until 1918. My medical State examination I passed at the University of Breslau on the 15th of November 1921. My medical approbation I received on the 16th of May 1922 by the Reich Ministry of the Interior at Berlin.
Q what success did you have in terminating your medical examination?
A My State examination was very good, doctor degree "magna cum laude".
Q Would you please describe to the Tribunal very shortly your career as a physician?
A I worked in Breslau as an interne with the Pathological Institute of the hospital, there, and I was also at the Medical polyclinic and the Hygiene Institute of the university. I started my years as assistant at the Hygienic Institute of the University at Breslau. In the year of 1922 I went to the Robert Koch Institute at Berlin and, finally, in the year cf 1923, I went to the Hygienic Institute of the University at Basle in Switzerland. During that time I studied for two months as a guest at the Prussian Institute for water, earth and air hygiene in Berlin, Dahlem.
In order to supplement my education I decided to do a few years of clinical work and became assistant at the surgical clinic at the University of Heidelberg. Upon the wish of my clinical chief there I had spent one winter before that with the anatomical Institute of the University at Heidelberg. During my Heidelberg years I had a place for work with the Hygienic Institute in order to carry out my scientific work there.
In the year of 1929, upon recommendation of the Berlin tropical disease Professor Ziemann; I was assigned to China to the Government of Chekiang. There I created the State Institute for Public Health of Chekiang. Two years later, I was appointed consultant for public health with the Commissioner for Civil Affairs at Chekiang. In addition, in the year 1934 the Chinese National Government offered me the job as a director in the Schistosomiasis control. I stayed officially at Hangehow, during my stay in China, which is the capitol of Chekiang. Hangehow has half a million inhabitants, and Chegiang more than twenty million. During that time I had a number of subsidiary offices such as are usually had in case of any such hygienic position. I was a member of the City Planning Committee, of the Water Works Committee, of the Committee for Police Reform with the Ministry of the Interior at Chekiang. I was an honorary member of the Hygienic Committee of the Chinese Medical Association. Then in the year 1934 I became chairman of the Parasitological Section of the Far Eastern Association for Tropical Medicine. Although the Commissioner for Civil Affairs had changed five times during that period, I stayed in that position for a period of 7 years until I myself asked to resign in order to accept an offer which was made to me by the Robert Koch Institute of Berlin as a professor.
DR. HEINZ FRITZ: Mr. President, with reference to Professor Rose's activity in China, I should like to submit to the Tribunal the Document Rose Number 1 under Rose Exhibit No. 1. This is a certification of the Chinese Education Minister Chu Chia-hua, and it is dated 26 September 1946. The document can be found in Document Volume Rose Number 1, page 1. I do not intend Mr. President, to read that document, I merely attach value to the fact that the High Tribunal take notice of that document since it represents a characterization of the Defendant Rose
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, this document contains no jurat, hence does not meet with the regulations prescribed by the Tribunal in that it is a duly authorized affidavit, certified, and in good form; hence the Prosecution objects to the admission of this document in evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, have you the original document?
(Original document handed to the Tribunal)
Objection will be overruled. The document will be admitted for such probative value as it may have.
BY DR. FRITZ:
Q. Did you receive any special assignments during these years in China?
A. In 1933 I received an assignment from the Hygiene Section of the League of Nations in order to study the Schistosomiasis problem in Egypt and to make a report, which was to constitute a comparison between that problem in Egypt as compared to China. In 1935 I participated in an International Information Course for Senior Public Health Officers of the Far East at Singapore. Malaria questions were dealt with there and then, with the support of the Far Eastern Bureau of the Hygiene Section of the League of Nations, I visited the most important malaria territories of British Malaya and Java and studied the plague control at Central Java. In 1935? the Public Health Administration of the Southern Chinses Province, Kwangsi, invited me to advise them on plague control questions. Before my return to Germany, I visited the most important parasitological institutes at Japan and then, upon recommendation of the Rockefeller Foundation, I visited a number of important parasitological institutions in the United Status of North America. On these occasions I also held lectures.
Q. After your return to Germany did you immediately assume your office at the Robert Koch Institute?
A. No, I only entered formally my new position with the Robert Koch Institute. I immediately took a vacation in order to take a trip to Africa for purposes of study.
I wanted to find out what the tropical medical special problems were as they prevailed in Central Africa. With the agreement of the Colonial Office in London, and the Colonial Ministries in Paris and Brussels, I traveled through africa. I visited the most important plague territories of Africa. This journey lasted for approximately one year and went through the Union of South Africa, Portuguese East Africa, the Tanganika territory, the Colony Kenya, the Protectorate of Ugnada, Uranda-Urundi, Murabat Mandate, Belgian Congo, French Equatorial Africa, French Cameroon, Nigeria, Gold Coast, Sierra Leone and French Senegal. On the basis of an invitation which I received while on my travels, I terminated my journey by visiting French Morocco. Then, in the year of 1937, I assumed the leadership of the Tropical Department at the Robert Koch Institute in Berlin. In the year 1939 I received a short special assignment in order to investigate a hepatitis epicemic in Spain. In the year 1943 I became the vice president of the Robert Koch Institute but could not practically exercise that office since my service with the Wehrmacht took all my time.
Q. In addition to the activities which you just described, did you have any instruction assignments?
A. In the year 1938 I received a lecture assignment for tropical medicine and tropical hygiene for the medical faculty of Berlin. In the year 1940 I received a similar assignment for the faculty of Foreign Sciences. In addition, I held lectures with the academies for post graduate medical training.
Q. Did you hold any other scientific subsidiary offices?
A. I was a member of the Scientific Senate of the Academy for Post Graduate Medical Training for Naval and Tropical Medicine at Hamburg. I was a member of the Board of the German Association for Tropical Medicine there. I was co-publisher of the handbook entitled "Tropical Medicine." I was a member of the committee of the German Tropical Medical periodicial. I was a member of the Working Committee for disinfectants and chemical for insect-pest control.
Q. To what German scientific associations did you belong?
A. To the German Micro-Biological Association the Berlin Micro-Biological Association I belonged to the Berlin Medical Association, the German Tropical Medicine Association; and the Association for Applied. Entomology.
Q. Were you also a member of foreign medical associations?
A. I was a member for life of the Chinese Medical Association, and in 1934 I was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society for Tropical Medicine. I was a member of the Far Eastern Association for Tropical Medicine. I was chairman of the Parasitology Section at the Eighth International Congress for Tropical agriculture at Tripple in the year 1939. In addition, I was the official delegate for Germany at the International Congress for Tropical Medicine and the Third International Malaria Congress in the year 1938 at Amsterdam.
Q. Mr. President, in order to prove the Fellowship of Professor Rose at the Royal Society, I offer as Rose Document No. 2,which will become Rose Exhibit No. 2, the original certification of the Royal Society in London. This can be found in Document Book Rose No. 1, on page 2.
Did you publish any medical scientific work?
A. Yes, these papers are contained in the list which was compiled by you. Since all my material was lost during the war, this list is probably not quite complete but only a few relatively unimportant papers may be missing. In addition to that, there are the yearly work reports about the activity of the Institute for Public Health at Chekiang during the 7 years in which I headed that institute; also there are the work reports of the tropical medicine department at the Robert Koch Institute from the years of 1937 up to 1944. They are printed in the yearly reports of that institute and there you can also find all the work published by my collaborators.
Q. Mr. President, with reference to the activity concerning writing for technical literature by Professor Rose, I offer into evidence the affidavit by the Defendant Rose dated the 11 of February 1947, as Rose Document No. 3, Rose Exhibit No. 3. The document can be found in Document Book Rose No. 1, on pages 3 to 7. I do not intend to read that document.
Were you a member of the NSDAP?
A. Yes, since 1930.
Q. But you were in China, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, how did it come about that you became a member of the NSDAP when you were in China?
A. A number of National Socialists in Nanking tried to recruit people into the NSDAP and also asked me. I heeded that invitation.
Q. Did you at any time hold an office in the Party or did you ever receive any Party awards?
A. No, I held no office in the Party or in any of its affiliations, although such office was offered to me on two occasions. I received no Party awards not did I get any honorary ranks.
Q. Did you at any time belong to the SA or the SS?
A. No. Under-Secretary State, Conti, asked me on one occasion to enter the SS but I did not do so.
Q. Did you have any disadvantages by reason of your refusal to join these formations?
A. Yes. At the end of 1939 I had been asked to participate in the Health Service at the occasion of the resettlement of the racial germans. This was done by reason of the German-Soviet Pact. I was to head this Public Health Service outside the Reich Borders and that by collaboration with the Soviet, Romania, Yugoslav and Hungarian authorities. After the conclusion of this work I remained the hygienic consultant to the Chief of this public health service. The actual resettlement on the German side was headed by Himmler and one agency, which was affiliated to the SS, the so-called Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle.