Q. Now, after these injections with pus did abscesses develope on the inmate?
A. The biggest part of those who were treated biologically, that is, a of them developed abscesses and very deep abscesses. Part of the persons who received allopathical and prophylactical treatment with sulfanilamide h** no abscesses.
Q. Did the inmates who had endured this treatment suffer pain?
A. Yes.
Q. Severe pain?
A. As far as I know I think that the pains were very severe.
Q. Now, witness, who kept the records about the development of the fever and the symptoms of each of these inmates during the course of the experiments?
A. Every patient in the camp of Dachau had his fever chart. The temperature of every patient was measured twice daily. That applied to every patient; those who were in the operational station and others, too.
Q. Were you in a position to know whether or not reports were made out on the results of these experiments?
A. Case histories were written.
Q. Were those --------?
A. Every patient was observed carefully by the nurses and Sturmbannfuehrer Schuetz, who visited the patient on frequent occasions and made a short case history and in addition every operation was noted down in that case history. That is, that the operating physician during the operation gave me the data necessary. He dictated the condition of the patient to me and also the manner of the operation. All these matters were noted down in the case history. In addition photos were taken of the abscesses.
Q. Were any of these reports, case histories, photos etc. sent to Berlin?
A. I have no knowledge of that. Sturmbannfuehrer Schuetz took all of these fever charts as well as the case histories with him. Besides that, at one time there was a visit of a number of people who allegedly came from Berlin and who visited these patients.
As far as I remember I think it was the Reichsarzt Grawitz or whatever his name is.
Q. Now, witness, in regard to the treatment by biological methods, were there additional experiments conducted on victims who had previously been used on malaria experiments by Prof. Schilling?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about those experiments.
A I have already emphasized that in addition to the phlegmone, internal diseases were treated. Among others 16 people were experimented upon or rather were observed in order to see whether biological treatment was suitable for the cure of malaria. Sixteen men were sent to my station who had been infected with malaria by Prof. Schilling and we observed whether biological treatment would have any success or not. We say that even with reference to the cause of the malaria illness these drugs had no influence whatsoever and these patients after six or seven attacks received the usual drugs, quinine, etc.
Q. Now, Witness, do you have any knowledge about the work of Professor Schilling at the malaria station?
A. I knew Professor Schilling, but I did not work at the malaria station. That is, at one time I had to do night duty there for two or three days and take temperatures. I know that Professor Schilling infected over 1,000 people with malaria. I also know that many of these people had to suffer unspeaktable You must not forget that these experiments were not carried out on people who were physically strong and healthy but they were mostly conducted on undernourished people who, for that very reason alone, had to suffer doubly. With my own eyes I saw a patient lie, who apparently was poisoned with neo-salvasan and was therefore weak under the terrible poison affects. He was practically a living wreck. I think the physician, or who ever it was that gave the inject had some misfortuna and there must have been something wrong with the kind of injection.
Q. Witness, was it commonly known in the Concentration Camp Dachau that Professor Schilling was carrying out such malaria experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you happen to know many victims died as a result of the malaria experiments by Professor Schilling?
A. I cannot give that.
Q. Would you say that some died?
A. I believe that there was some. There were quite a number of them.
Q. Now, witness, was it commonly known in the Dachau Concentration Camp that a certain Dr. Rascher was conducting experiments with ice cold water?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you gain your knowledge of these freezing experiments by Dr. Rascher?
A. I only know that from hearsay, that it was generally known. Everyone knew about these experiments.
Q. Did you know or did you learn that inmates had to stay outside in the cold for numbers of hours?
A. That was spoken of.
Q. In other words, Witness, your knowledge of the freezing experiments is entirely hearsay, it is not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear whether or not people died as a result of these two types of freezing experiments?
A. I must assume that because I often saw that nurses or assistants were carrying dead persons from Rascher's station - Block 5 - into the morgue. I certain for that reason since my station was very close to the morgue. Is she like to point out that during the early days we were always told that whenever dead people were carried over the court yards from Rascher's station that all doors of other stations had to be closed so that no one saw what was happening
Q. Witness, was it commonly known in the Dachau Concentration Camp that inmates were being used for high altitude experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you yourself ever see any of the equipment used by Dr. Rascher and his colleagues in the high altitude experiments?
A. It took some time. For some time the so-called low pressure chamber was in Blocks 3 and 5. These were big chambers.
Q. You saw that chamber yourself, Witness?
A. Yes, I saw the chamber there myself.
Q. I know this may strain you a bit, Witness, but can you remember how long that chamber remained in Dachau?
A. It is very hard for me to answer that today. I am quite certain that this chamber was there for over four weeks. It may have been longer.
Q. You really don't know how long the chamber was there then, Witness?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether people died as a result of these high altitude experiments?
A. I know that people died, but I only know that from hearsay.
Q. Now, Witness, in the time that you were an inmate in the Dachau Concentration Camp did you ever hear whether Rascher worked with a drug for the coagulation of blood?
A. Dr. Rascher tried to produce that drug. That is, Dr. Rascher was in charge of the entire matter and introduced it. But, according to my knowledge, during the time he was conducting that work he was arrested.
Q. Do you remember the name of the drug that Dr. Rascher was using?
A. At the beginning this drug was called homthal. Later, when it was produced in a luquid form it was called stypthoral, if I am not mistaken.
Q. Did Dr. Rascher, in order to test this drug, deliberately inflict wounds on inmates of the camp?
A. I have not seen that but I heard about it. As far as I know, experiments were conducted in the crematorium, but I emphasize again that I only heard that
Q. What did you hear took place in the crematorium? What type of wounds did Dr. Rascher inflict upon the inmates of the camp in order to test this drug
A. I only heard that these people were inflicted with wounds. I cannot say what kind of wounds they were.
Q. Did you ever hear whether or not anyone died as a result of these experiments for blood coagulation?
A. If it is true that experiments were conducted in the crematorium, one has to assume that these persons died because nobody came alive from there. Otherwise, I don't know of anyone having died as a result of these experiment
A. In connection with these blood coagulation experiments did you ever hear the name of the drug called polygal?
Q. Yes.
A. To your knowledge did Dr. Rascher also work with the drug polygaliin these blood coagulation experiments?
Q. Yes.
A. Now, Witness, was there also an experimental station in Dachau for tubercular cases? That is, did they experiment on the tubercular inmates?
Q. I don't know whether we are concerned with experiments here, but I know that in approximately 1942, or it may have even been earlier, a so-called experimental station was built in Block 5. A certain Mr. von Weihern who, as far as I know was a homeopathic physician, was in charge of one department and there was also a certain Dr. Brachtel there.
Q. Do you know what went on in this experimental station? Can you tell the Tribunal about the work in this experimental station of Dr. Brachtel and Mr. von Weihern?
A. Well, as far as I heard it was the part of Dr. Brachtel to prove that his method was far more suitable than the method of Mr. von Weihern, that is, to cure tuberculosis diseases. At that time I learned from nurse that these methods of cure were not used correctly. I learned that every one of these gentlemen tried to prove that his method was the right one and I think that I can conclude from what I heard that these gentlemen were cheating one another. I also heard at that time that, mainly at the department of which Dr. Brachtel was in charge, the dead were so-called removed in order to prove that there were no dead. That is, the patients were removed shortly before death occurred and were exchange for other patients who had similar diseases and logically there were not dead at that station. I emphasize that I heard that from nurses. I myself only worked at the surgical department.
Q. Witness, was there an epidemic of jaundice spreading in the Concentration Camp Dachau, sometime in 1942 or 1943?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember whether or not any experiments were conducted in connect with this epidemic jaundice?
A. Yes.
Q. Who conducted these experiments?
A. Dr. Brachtel.
Q. What did he do in the course of these experiments? What means did he use to conduct the experiments? Will you tell the Tribunal what he did at that time
A. I can really say very little about this kind of experiment, but I do know that Dr. Brachtel was conducting the socalled "liver punctures" on a number of patients. I saw, with my own eyes, after having been present in the operating room for many days where my patients were operated on, how Dr. Brachtel was carrying out this liver puncture.
Q. Were these liver punctures made by Dr. Brachtel very painful for the patients?
A. I must assume so; yes. Here we are concerned with an operation which only lasts for a few seconds, but, judging from the demeanor of the patient, we could see that we weren't concerned with any dtrifles. This operation must have been painful.
Q. Now, witness, do you remember the station of Dr. Rascher in Dachau? Do you remember what this station was called? What was the name of the station at Dachau -- Rascher's experimental station?
A. Yes; we nurses knew that this station was part of the so-called Institute of "Ahnenerbe", or something like that.
Q. Do you remember who was the manager of this station at that time?
A. I often heard the name of Sievers mentioned in that connection.
Q. Do you know whether or not Sievers visited Dr. Rascher at this station at Dachau?
A. Certainly. Sievers was in Dachau. Whether he visited Rascher personally, I don't know, but Sievers' visit was announced very frequently.
Q. Did you, yourself, ever see Sievers on one of his frequent visits to Dachau?
A. I think; I don't know Sievers and I never worried about his visit, but there were numerous visits at Block 5. Among others, Himmler, Pohl and others, whatever their names may be. They very frequently came to the Station 5.
Q. Do you remember any other distinguished visitors that came to Dachau, other than Himmler, Pohl and Sievers?
A. On numerous occasions, Dr. Lolling, Grawitz, and I once heard the name of Conti. I don't know whether it was really he. These visits were merely announced and we nurses had to keep the station in order on these days.
Q. In the course of these visits by Dr. Grawitz, Lolling, Pohl, Sievers and Himmler, did they visit the experimental stations of Schilling, Rascher and so forth?
A. Yes; certainly. I emphasize the Schilling station; at least the part when the laboratories were always received high visitors.
Q. Did you, at any time, see Luftwaffe officers visiting Dachau Concentration Camp?
A. Yes.
Q. On what occasions did you happen to see them, other than in connection with the seawater experiments as you have told us previously?
A. That happened during the time when Dr. Rascher was conducting his experiments in the low pressure chamber.
Q. Now, witness, in all of these various experiments that you have just enumerated to the Tribunal, can you tell us whether or not the inmates used for these experiments were volunteers?
A. They couldn't have been volunteers.
Q. Did you ever hear of any prisoner being freed from the concentration camp after having been subjected to one of these medical experiments?
A. I heard that something like that was promised to them, but I think it was never realized.
Q. In what ways were these prisoners chosen for the experiments? Were they chosen out of a line, at random, or were they chosen by Capo's, or would you please explain to us in what manner they were chosen?
A. If I remember correctly, for instance, whenever Dr. Schilling needed some people, they were requested by the command post. The command post, the administration of the camp, then approved the number of people which were needed I don't know much about the further developments of things, since all these matters went over the to the administration and we really had very little to do with them, we nurses. I only know that, mainly with reference to the people selected by Professor Schilling, they were mostly examined by the physicians who were attached to Dr. Schilling as his assistants. I often witnessed the examinations, whenever I was in the x-ray room or in the surgical clinic, since I always had to carry a number of patients.
Q. Then, you would say, witness, that some of these prisoners were criminal prisoners; some were political prisoners; and so forth?
A. They were inmates of all types. In the early days, there were the socalled "A-social" elements; later there were people coming from all nations, people with all different views, including clergymen.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1.30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 13.30 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 13 December 1946.)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel desire to cross-examine the witness on the stand?
DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for the defendant Sievers) CROSS-EXAMINATION.
BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q. You have said this morning that Sievers was in Dachau, and that you knew him personally; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I am interested to know from what source you learned that Sievers was at the station of Professor Schilling, too?
A. I have not said that Sievers has been with Schilling; but, generally he visited the Dachau Concentration Camp essentially in Station "A" and "B" and they were the cleanest of all and these two stations were open to all of the visitors.
Q. And who took these visitors to these stations?
A. Sometimes the Kamp Kommandant who had protective custody at the Camp, sometimes, the doctor in charge.
Q. Can you say if Sievers was also taken around the Camp in this man***
A. I do not know that.
Q. Can you tell me whether or not Sievers had anything to do with the experiments?
A. That I do not know.
Q. Did you hear anything about Pectine or Pectin used in these experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who had anything to do with these experiments?
A. I think the term "Pectine" used for these experiments is not correct You mean perhaps "Pextrin" was used?
Q. Pextrin is another type that was tested at Dachau?
A. Yes, in the last six months; a certain Dr. Bloetnerr had to produce such a Gelatine or pectine.
Q. Do you know where Dr. Bloettner worked?
A. He worked there; at first he was an assistant to Dr. Schilling, as far as I know; and after Dr. Rascher left, Dr. Bloettner came to work in Dr. Racher's section.
Q. Do you know whether Dr. Bloettner had anything to do with Pectine experiments?
A. He conducted the experiments with pectine at Dachau, he tried to use pectine.
DR. WEISGERBER: I have no more questions.
DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Prof. Wilhelm Beigelboeck) I have only one little question be put to you.
BY DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER:
Q. Did you ever hear the name Professor Eppinger in the camp?
A. No.
Q. Do you know a nurse named "Pillwein"?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether he was in Dachau at the time the fight between prisoners and nurses that you described, took place?
A. Yes.
Q. Before that?
A. Of course, he was a prisoner. I assume so. Pillwein was a nurse. He must have been in the camp before the experiments.
Q. No. I mean whether he was already a nurse in the hospital when this fight took place?
A. I do not know that. I believe Pillwein only returned before that time.
Q. Do you know a nurse whose first name was "Max"?
A. Yes; he was to take care of the fifty gypsies. He was the man that was beaten up by the gypsies.
DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross examination by defense counsel?
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions of this witness, your honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, we would like at this time to call the Court's witness, Walter NEFF, for examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon Walter Neff.
WALTER NEFF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Witness, the Tribunal is now about to put certain questions to you before you are sworn as a witness in this case.
Q. Do you answer to the name of Walter Neff?
A. Yes.
Q. Where do you now live?
A. In Dachau, Kufsteinerstrasse, No. 2.
Q. Are you a German National?
A. Yes.
Q. Very well, hold up your right hand and repeat after me the oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may sit down.
Witness, before you were brought to the witness stand, the prosecuting authorities advised this Tribunal that you are now being held in custody by the American authorities, upon suspicion of having actively participated in certain allegedly criminal medical experiments held at Dachau Concentration Camp prior to liberation, for which you may possibly be prosecuted as a war criminal. In view of this statement made by the Prosecution to the Tribunal, the Tribunal now wishes to caution you that although you are now being called as a witness and will be compelled to answer questions under oath, that any statements made by you as a witness can and may be used as evidence against you in the event of such a prosecution; and that, consequently, you may refuse to answer such questions put to you as may, in your honest opinion, tend to incriminate you. Do you understand?
A. Yes.
JUDGE SEBRING: The Prosecution may proceed with the examination.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Your name is Walter Neff?
A. Yes.
Q. You were born on February 22, 1909 at Augsburg, Germany?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a German citizen?
A. Yes.
Q. You are presently held as a civilian internee at Nurnberg?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, I am going to put a number of questions to you and I want you to tell the complete truth and to give us the full story as you know it. First, I would like to ask you a few questions about your background and how you happened to go to Dachau. Where were you living and what were you doing prior to 1938?
A. In 1934 I was in Brugg-an-der-Mur. There I learned that an attack was planned on an Austrian Gendarmerie Post. I reported this to the Austria Police but before the deed was committed I arrested the two persons responsible myself and turned them over to the police. The two people were condemned to death by the Austrian Courts and I appeared as witness before the Court. In 1937 I came to Germany and I worked in the Animal Breeding Society in Passau. On the 16th of February 1938 I was arrested; I was taken to the Gestapo at Munich, Mittelsbacher Palais, and after 4 weeks I was taken to the Dachau Concentration Camp.
Q. You were taken to Dachau as a political or a criminal prisoner?
A. I was taken to Dachau as a political prisoner.
Q. And was the reason given for taking you there because you had inform on the bomb polotters in 1934 in Austria?
A. Yes.
Q. Were these bomb plotters in Austria, Nazis?
A. These bomb plotters were two SS men.
Q. Witness, have you ever been convicted of a crime?
A. No.
Q. Now you went to Dachau in March 1938, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now will you explain briefly what work you did in Dachau--what duties were assigned to you?
A. When I was taken to the camp, according to the law I had one year protective custody. This was 3 months in the old bunker in chains, 6 months in the bunker and then 3 months in the penal company. After release from the penal company I was in various labor commandos, such as settlement barracks construction and in a plantation. In 1940 I became the night watchman in the hospital. In January 1941 I took sick and after my recovery I was made a nurse in the tuberculosis ward; but I must emphasize I knew nothing about the nursing of tuberculosis.
Q. Now in 1941 then you became a nurse, in the early part of 1941, a nurse in the tuberculosis ward in the hospital at Dachau, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did you remain in that job?
A. Until 22 February 1942, when the experimental station, when Dr. Rascher's Experimental Station was opened.
Q. And that was February 22, 1942?
A. On 22 February 1942, the experiments on low-pressure chambers were begun.
Q. Now how did it happen, witness, that you were selected to assist Dr. Rascher?
A. I must object to the term "assistant" of Dr. Rascher. I was never Dr. Rascher' s assistant and I was never called that. The term was used only after the Americans had arrived and I was accused of co-responsibility. I was assigned to Dr. Rascher because the Rascher Station was in Block 5 in the tuberculosis section where I was already a nurse.
Q. Now is it not true, witness, that you were pardoned in September 194*
A. The Reichsfuehrer SS ordered that I was to be freed, with the obligation of working in the Entomological Station until the end of the war.
Nevertheless, immediately after my release, I had to work for Dr. Rascher. The Entomological Station was in the camp and, as far as I know, had nothing to do with experiments on human beings.
Q. What was your status after September 1942?
A. After my release my type of activity changed very little. The work as such, was mere or less the same.
Q. Were you, after September 1942, a civilian employee of the Ahnenerbe Institute?
A. Yes, I was a civilian employee of the Institute. But in November 1942 I was drafted into the Police Reserve and I had to appear in the camp in uniform.
Q. This was in November 1942 that you became a reserve in the SS Police
A. In the Police Reserve.
Q. Now you continued to stay in Dachau, however, after you became a member of the Police Reserve, is that not true?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did you first leave Dachau?
A. I was sent to the Russian Front for anti-partisan activity in August or September of 1943 and I was called back in January 1944.
Q. Well now, isn't it true that you left Dachau in August, 1943, and to some training in a police camp?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was not until November or so of 1943 that you actually went to the Russian Front?
A. No, it could not have been before November 1943.
Q. And you came back to Dachau in January 1944, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, why is it that you were put in the Police Reserve?
A. I was not allowed to enter the camp in civilian clothes any longer. I was originally to be drafted into the SS but then I was put in the Police Reserve stationed at Dachau.
Q. All right now, after you came back to Dachau in January 1944, how long were you then in Dachau?
A. In April 1944 the experimental station, which was no longer under Dr. Rascher, was moved to Schlachters near Lindau and I went to Schlachters near Lindau with my comrades. I worked partly in Dachau and partly in Schla chters until October 1944. In October 1944, because of aiding the escape of the prisoner, Boris Krentz, Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Bloettner had me excluded from the hospital and I was no longer allowed to enter the camp.
After that I was sent to the Western Front, also in a police unit, and stayed there until the beginning of March 1945. In March 1945 I went back to Dachau Before the Americans arrived about 60 prisoners, --I liberated about 50 prisoners and kept them in the houses that were there for them. About the 28th of April they made an uprising in Dachau. The purpose of the uprising was to prevent the defense of the area of the camp and to prevent evacuation of the camp, and this purpose was fulfilled.
Q. You assisted then in the liberation of the concentration camp at Dachau
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you left Dachau in April 1944 to go to Schlachters, that was for the purpose of engaging in the production of this Blutstillungsmittel, coagulant drug. Now, Witness, let's go back and take up the matters, the things which occurred in Dachau in chronological order; as I recall, in the beginning of 1941 you became a nurse in the ward for tuberculosis patients, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Does Action 14 F 13 or Action 13 mean anything to you, Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you explain to the Tribunal what that action is?
A. In the camp, especially in the hospital, so-called invalid actions were carried out. On the desk of the camp ward I once was able to read a secret letter which said "Subject-F 13." The contents were to the effect that the invalids of the camp were to be gathered together. That is how I remember the expression F 13. The invalid action was introduced in the camp by the announcement that all invalids had to report and they would get easier work and would be put in a different camp. Only when these invalids were taken away did we realize that it could not be a different living detail, because the people had to turn in their crutches and whatever else they had, and they were taken away by the hundreds. We could follow their route only as far as Linz, but the death reports which came in and their clothing which came back told u that the people had been liquidated. This invalid action was followed by a series of periodic other actions. For the hospital it was as follows:
The camp doctor went through the wards and indicated this one, this one, that one, who was to be listed for the invalid action. I remember that whole blocks, for example Block 7, was completely evacuated in one action without any distinction of the state of health of the individual patients. The tuber culosis ward was an exception in that it was an experimental ward, but this affected only those patients who were given the name "experimental patients All other patients with tuberculosis, --there were so many because they were sent to Dachau from all the camps---for the most part were included in this action. This action also included that the x-ray pictures were taken periodi cally of everyone in the camp, and those who had tuberculosis were sooner or later put on the invalid transports. The period between the listing and removal was about six weeks, and everyone who was put on the list was examine once more, not by a doctor this time, but as we know by a Gestapo official. The official usually asked three questions - were you in the World war? Were you wounded? Why are you in the camp? Then the slip was signed and put in the files. We knew that this signature was a death sentence. For us nurse it was probably difficult for this reason, when there was invalid action and the camp doctor was selecting people, there was danger that the whole block, without consideration for individuals, would be put on the invalid transpor list. I owe it to Dr. Brachtels that I was frequently warned that an invalid action was coming up; in that way it was possible to help very many patient in one way or another by transferring them to the camp during the period of danger and returning them to the hospital later, or placing them under protection of the experimental station. But the terrible thing about it was that one could help part of these people, but had to leave the others to their fate. And then there was another action, that was the so-called "tooth action. All prisoners had to go to the hospital for examination and treatment of their teeth. In reality it was determined whether the prisoner had gold in his mouth or not. If he had gold in his mouth he was registered carefully and after he died he had to pay the gold from his mouth for the last tribute for the fight against National Socialism.
Q Witness, can you tell us approximately how many people were included a these invalid transports during the period you were in the hospital ward, and I take that to be from 1941, the beginning of 1941 until February 1942?
A. From the hospital I know that in the course of the year of 1941, and the beginning of 1942 a little over 2,400 were sent on invalid transports. I know that so accurately because I always noted down the date and the figures, and the list is in the hands of the Court in Dachau, and also in the Information Center, Dachau, by Klaisheimerstr. 90.
Q. Were people included in these invalid transports other than from the hospital wards from which these 2,000 you have mentioned came?
A. These no doubt include the ones who were released from the hospital to the camp, but at the time of the listing were sick in the hospital. They were also sent on the invalid transport even after they had recovered.