Q And why were you recruited in the year 1941 by the Reichs-Arzt?
A In the opinion of the leading men the war was finished then, and many doctors of the General SS were reclaimed from the Army by the Reichs-Arzt SS. I was to resume my activity in the Sippen-amt of the Main Race and Settlement Office.
Q During the following years did tou try to go back to active service?
A Yes, from 1943 on repeatedly.
Q And with what success?
A The Reichs-Arzt SS promised me that I would be assigned to the Front. The personnel office of the Medical Office of the Waffen SS was given such an assignment. I know that efforts were made to this effect, but as far as I know these efforts were always unsuccessful, because I had no experience in the East, neither as an officer in a medical company nor in the treatment of the diseases prevalent in the East.
Q After your return from active service then you became a member of the Reichs-Arzt, and you worked in the Sippen-amt of the Race and Settlement Office, did you not?
A Yes, I worked in the Sippen-amt again. I worked for the Reichs-Arzt only for a certain number of hours.
Q Did the Reichs-Arzt make use of your work for its own work, and for which work.
A It occurred now and again the Reichs-Arzt gave me minor assignments, and they were generally unimportant things. Most often it was social welfare cases. It turned out that in general I worked on complaints from the public about doctors and their activity which were sent to the SS magazine "Das Schwarze Korps," which were passed on to the Reichs-Arzt.
They were investigated by the Reichs Chamber of Physicians, and the answer was sent to the person who had written in the complaint. Later there were many inquiries about diseases and steps to be taken in cases of illness, and I dealt with these matters.
Q But all of these inquiries which came to you went through the Schwarze Korps?
A Yes.
Q And when did you become the leading physician of the Main Race and Settlement Office?
A Probably in the summer of 1941.
Q And what were your tasks as leading physician?
A Primarily the adjustment and coordination of personnel between the Front and the Homeland, concerning the doctors who worked in the Sippen-amt. Every new doctors was to be sent to the Front for a certain length of time and the reserve doctors had to be trained. There were only a few doctors who had experience in the field of hereditary diseases. The training of these doctors was one of my duties. Also I had to supervise the doctors and their work in the main welfare office of the SS. The whole supply system of the Waffen SS in 1943 was under the Main Race and Settlement Office.
Q Is it correct that you went on with your work in the Sippen-amt?
A Yes, I myself continued to perform the medical work there, and about a hundred to a hundred and fifty applications per day had to be dealt with.
Q The other leading physicians in the SS, did they have special offices?
A No, they had no secondary activity.
Q Your title was Ober Fuehrer and your position as leading physician?
A Yes, there were also leading physicians who had the rank of a general.
Q Since when is Grawitz Reichs-Arzt or war Reichs-Arzt?
A From 1936 on.
Q Did he hold any other offices?
A He was also managing president of the German Red Cross.
Q Will you give a short resume of the characteristics and personality of the Reichs-Arzt SS Dr. Grawitz?
A Grawitz was an energetic and unsettled personality. He talked a great deal, and that was his method when he was carrying on negotiations, simply to talk the other party down. I experienced several times that visitors said afterwards that they had not had an opportunity to present their business, because Grawitz had done all the talking, and then they went away without having had success in anything.
He emphasized the officer very much. He attached great importance to his position as Reichsarzt. He demanded absolute obedience. He was generally polite; that he could suddenly become very abrupt and inconsiderate. In the case of persons who had influence somewhere else he acted differently. He liked not only many words but big words and exaggerations, and in general, he acted as if he were a very influential and a very important man.
In the course of time, however one had to get the impression that his position particularly in connection with Himmler was very uncertain. Himmler apparently had no confidence in him. Grawitz's whole being and work turned around his efforts to get into favor with Himmler again. For some reason Grawitz must have been seriously reproached by Himmler, and one noticed repeatedly that he endeavored in everythink connected with Himmler or the personal staff to act with painful carefulness. He Thought that only he himself could take care of things so that there would be no difficulties with Himmler, and so in all things which were connected with Himmler, he himself took care of them with great carefulness. He opened his mail himself, and he did not let anyone else see it. He no, doubt, wanted to avoid any one else, realizing the actual conditions, for his position with Himmler at least during the War was not very sure, but outwardly he always tried to create the opposite impression that as Reichsarzt he had a very firm and safe position.
DR. BOEHM: In this connection I submit Document HPO-2, an affidavit of Dr. Edwin Jung, who was a collaborator of Grawitz at the beginning of the War. It is on pages 3 to 5 of the Document Book. I offer this document as Poppendick Exhibit no. 2 For the moment I shall only read point number 2. The other paragraphs of this affidavit I shall read at a later point. in paragraph 2 I quote:
"The personality of Dr. Grawitz:
"I always had the feeling that Dr. Grawitz did not feel too safe in his position and tried to fortify his position by showing himself as a particularly unconditional follower of Himmler. He was correct in his general behavior, amiable and not free vanity.
He showed a certain elegance in appearance and in his concernings that were around him Unconditional submission to Himmler is shown best by the following remark: I was then told he reported to Himmler on the completition of his task of taking over the Red Cross with the following words: "The obedient retriever brings back the hare." From remarks like this one and from his attitude toward Himmler, I gathered again and again that he could not get rid of a continious gnawing fear for the safety of his position. For three reasons it seems very understandable from a human point of view that he kept important or secret matters to himself or made them known only to the persons directly concerned in order to prevent such matters from becoming public unnecessarily and to prevent others from learning of them unnecessarly."
That is the end of my quotation. This affidavit also has been sworn to, certified and affirmed.
Q How did Grawitz deal with his business in his office, witness?
A Grawitz had the mail brought to him by his secretary and, generally, he dictated the replies to her immediately; and in addition when he was present, he usually had quite a large number of visitors who had appointments. They were announced by the secretary or the adjutant, and he then received them and he talked to them alone. At the office of the Reichsartz there were also many visitors on Red Cross business. One could not keep the various matters separate, but the doctors in charge of the Main Offices, Hauptamter, and the office chiefs on his staff he generally received alone.
Q How did the reorganization of the office of the Reichsartz Grawitz come about in 1943?
A Grawitz wanted to expand his office, no doubt in order to get a more firm foundation for his power. He wanted it to become a Main Office. He tried to have as many medical matters as possible united on his staff. He wanted to have a big staff. He wanted to have a great many people on it, and so in about 1941, he called on a doctor who had been recommended to him as having organizational capacities and who at the same time had experience at the front and connections with the front.
That was Dr. Wille, He had intended later to have Dr. Wille as chiefof-staff in his Main Office. All these efforts of Grawitz, however, were frustrated by the developments of the War. In 1943 Grawitz had to be very modest. This Main Office was never set up, and, consequently, Dr. Wille was sent back to the front. From 1941 to 1943 he had hardly anything to do under Grawitz.
Q How was the Office of the Reichsartz organized altogether?
A In the fall of 1043 a staff was set up for Grawitz by the Reichs fuehrer. Six offices were created. In general, however they did not have very large staffs. That was the Chief clinician. As far as I known, that was only one person. Then there was the chief hygienist who had only a few assistants, then the Chief dentist who had one or two persons working for him, then there was the biggest office actually, the medical quatermaster, the chief pharmacist. His staff with the Reichsartz had twelve to fifteen people. There was also an office for statistical evaluation of case histories. This office was worked outside of Berlin. I cannot say exactly how many people worked there, Finally there was an office called the Personal Office.
Q Were all these offices in the building of the Reichsartz Office?
A No, aside from Grawitz, there was only the chief dentist and the medical qustermaster in the same building.
Q In your opinion, would the institution of a Personal have been necessary?
A No. This office was completely superfluous. I view of the small amount of mail which was received, Grawitz could easily take care of the office work himself.
Q For what reasons was an office like this instituted then and given to you?
AAfter the reorganization, Grawitz said that the Reichsfuehrer had approved six offices for him including a Personal Office. Grawitz wanted to give to office to me. I said that I was the leading physician at the Race and settlement Main office and I could not take on any further responsible activity. Resides, I would not have been interested in general office work. But Grawitz reasured me and said things would remain as they were. He would continue to take care of the small amount of mail which was received by himself with his secretary. I would not have to worry about anything. I would have plenty of time to continue my work in the Main Race and Settlement Office, but he wanted to keep this office, this Personal Office, in order to be able to use it later. So that this position, could not be taken away from him again, he had to give the title to someone. Actually no Personal Office was ever set up, There was no sign in the Building; there was no letterhead. There was no stamp for the Personal Office, and I never used the title "Chief of the Personal Office", and I never called myself an office chief.
Q. Did Grawitz make you responsible for any work within the office for correspondence and all activities of an officer?
A. No, in no way, as I have already said. Not only did he say so to me at the beginning, but afterwards, in the presence of the Secretary Sommerfeld, he often repeated that I did not have to worry about anything, he would take care of the work all by himself, and Miss Oberhauser will be able to confirm that.
Q. What did Grawitz say, that he was to do most of the work himself?
A. Yes; I also said he was a very industrious man, and he once said to me if he did not have the mail, the correspondence of the ReichsArzt, then he didn't know what he could do. He felt superfluous as Reichs-Arzt.
Q. Whose subordinate was the adjutant and the secretary of the Reichs-Arzt?
A. They were both directly under Grawitz.
Q. Could you look at correspondence; did you have the possibility to look at correspondence?
A. I sometimes saw the open correspondence. Occasionally, Grawitz gave me a letter and, of course, I saw that.
Q. As chief of the personal office, why was it not part of your work to have to look at the correspondence?
A. First of all, as I said, it was the custom for the secretary to show the mail to Grawitz directly. That was before 1943, and after 1943. And in the second place, Grawitz had forbidden that the mail addressed to him by name should be opened; or mail which was marked secret, or which was in any other way important.
Q. These letters which you emphasized just now, did not concern you as you had secret order and so far as they were sent to Grawitz personally?
A. No, it went directly to Grawitz, And as for the other mail, the opened correspondence I saw only rarely.
Q. Did you get orders from Grawitz to deal yourself with some of the mail, the incoming mail?
A. Only the letters which came from the Schwarze Korps. They were generally sent to me by name and the secretary sorted them out and gave them to me. Grawitz had strictly forbidden me to do anything else independently.
Q. Grawitz, therefore, forbade the secret orders by not letting anybody else open the letters, is that correct?
A. Yes, we all know about this order and Grawitz was always referring to it. Besides, he was very fond of secrecy himself.
Q. As evidence, HPO-3, I submit the literal text, as well as the HPO-4, the excerpt from the examination of General Velmi in the Milch trial, about the exact time when this order was given. This secret order was mentioned by the defendant, was submitted by the defendant Rostock. The secret order, the decree order here corresponds to the text, and was introduced in the International Military Tribunal as Gestapo Exhibit No. 25. Regarding this fact, this need not be marked as a Poppendick exhibit. I quote from the Document HPO-3, Exhibit 25:
"1. No one; No office, no officer, maybe informed about a secret matter unless they must be informed for reasons of duty. 2. No office and no officer may receive further information on a secret matter than is absolutely necessary for the fulfilment of their task. 3. No office and no officer may receive information on a secret matter or that part of it which is necessary for them to know, earlier than is absolutely necessary for the fulfilment of their task. 4. It is forbidden thoughtless to pass on, by any general order of distribution, any orders which it is of decisive importance to keep secret."
I quote from HPO-4.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the date of that order, the date is lacking from the copy in the Document Book.
DR. BOEHM: This order in my edition was submitted by my colleague Dr. Merkel, on the 15th of June 1946.
The order, when it came out, your Honor, will become evident from the reading of the next document.
I quote now from HPO-4, as follows: 20 February 1947, of the Tribunal No. II against General Field Marshal Milch, morning session, page 1293. I omit ten lines, and I quote Dr. Bergold's question:
"Q. Witness, do you know the so-called 'Basic Fuehrer Order No. 1?
"A. Yes, I know it.
"Q. Can you tell me when exactly this decree was issued?
"A. On 12 January 1940.
"Q. Are you quite sure about this date?
"A. Quite sure."
I omit further eight lines.
"A. The order was issued on 20 January 1940. It was meant for one specific case. Its contents were approximately as follows: It broke with the former view, our former view about general issuance of orders. It ran approximately"-- That is the end of my quotation.
I omit further five lines. I quote:
"I am able to state the date so exactly because I was dismissed on this day."
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, in what manner does defense counsel propose to introduce this excerpt from the record Military Tribunal II, that is, the Milch case?
DR. BOEHM: This document which was already the object of an examination in the Milch trial, which was dealt with at that time and showed that the order was issued.
THE PRESIDENT: This should be placed in some form by which it may be received as a certified copy before Tribunal II, or by some method so that counsel for the prosecution could check it if he deems it improper and object to it.
DR. BOEHM: Certainly, Your Honor, I shall do that later.
MR. HARDY: My question, your Honor, is whether or not defense counsel proposes to introduce this and give it an exhibit number, or does he intend to merely put it in the Document Book for the convenience of the Tribunal, thereby requesting the Tribunal to take judicial notice of the testimony set forth in the Milch record?
DR. BOEHM: Yes; certainly, I want to do the latter. I want to submit it as a statement which was made in the Milch trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Then it should be brought before the Tribunal under certification by some authority, and we may take judicial notice of it.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, certainly, I have already expressed, your Honor, that I shall do so.
THE PRESIDENT: I notice that counsel has himself certified that it is a true copy of the testimony before Tribunal II.
MR. HARDY: What I am attempting to determine, your Honor, is whether or not he is going to give it an exhibit number. It is not necessary to give it on exhibit number.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand counsel to say he is not offering it as an exhibit. Is that correct, counsel?
DR. BOEHM: Yes.
DR. BOEMM: In connection with the office order of Grawitz, I submit the document, HPO 5, which is an affidavit by Dr. Carl Blumenreuter, Sanitaets-Zeugmeister (Medical Quartermaster) of the SS. It appears on page 9 of the document book Poppendick, and I offer it as Poppendick Exhibit 3. I quote from the contents of this document:
"I, Dr. Carl Blumenreuter, at Groemitz in Holstein, Landhaus Storm, late SS-Gruppenfuehrer, have been advised that a false affidavit will render me liable to punishment.
"I declare under oath that my statement is true and is given in order to be submitted as evidence to Military Tribunal, Palace of Justice, Nurnberg.
"I was chief of office XV (chemical-pharmaceutical service) in the Medical Office of the WaffenSS until 31 August 1943. From then on, until the end of the war, I was medical quartermaster of the SS in the office of Dr. Grawitz, Reich physician SS. In the preceding years, I was occasionally in the office of the Reich physician on official duty.
"I am therefore able to give the following statements about Grawitz's office and the official work there, before and after 1 September 1943.
"From 1940 to 1943, the office of the Reich Physician was not very extensive. I was of the impression, that it practically consisted only of Dr. Grawitz himself, who personally settled the affairs submitted to him or to his office. He preferred oral transactions by discussions in his own office without the presence of a third person.
"Grawitz's secretary worked in his outer office.
From 1941 onwards I saw Dr. Wille as well as Grawitz's adjutant around Grawitz. Occasionally I saw Dr. Poppendick too. I knew that the latter worked as a physician, in the Geneological Office (Sippenamt) and as a chief physician in the Racial and Settlement Main Office.
"I, myself, thought that the office of the Reich Physician was superfluous during the war, and always expressed this opinion. The medical departments of the main offices worked independently, and as expedient for war requirements. From this it follows, that there was hardly any work for Grawitz. I always felt that his efforts to interfere and to show the necessity for his existence were just as useless as they were disturbing.
"In 1941 I learned that Grawitz intended to place his office on a more extensive footing. Through this he also hoped to become chief of a main office. I heard that Grawitz took Dr. Wille on to his staff in 1941 in order to make him his first collaborator, when his desires were accomplished.
"On 1 September 1943, Himmler ordered a separation of the staff of the Reich Physician SS and Police. It did not, however, meet the hopes Grawitz had entertained. Nevertheless Grawitz had succeeded in taking over the management of two useful and extensive spheres of work, the pharmaceutic service and the hygienic service, much as I myself had struggled against the incorporation into the office of the Reich Physician. Through this, the office of the Reich Physician received a certain right of existence. This hardly entailed more work for Grawitz, however. On account of this development, Wille resumed his activity with the fighting units.
"Through Himmler's new organization an office called "Personal Office" had been newly established among others. This office was nominally given to Poppendick, in addition to his other activities in other departments. I always had the impression that the socalled 'Personal Office,' being a superfluous establishment, was a mere designation. For practically nothing changed in Grawitz's office administration in comparison with the usual habits up to September 1943.
"I was not aware that a new office had been established, with Poppendick as director, which now dealt with the correspondence of the Reich Physician. As usual, only his secretary was still working in Grawitz's outer office. I received as before documents and any instructions directly from Grawitz, not from Poppendick. Documents with which I was to deal were so marked by Grawitz in his own handwriting, not by Poppendick. If I had something to discuss with the Reich Physician, I went as before directly to Grawitz.
"Such discussions nearly always took place in private. On these occasions Grawitz frequently used to hand over or discuss with me those documents from his mail with which I had to deal, or which concerned my special sphere. Grawitz usually took such documents from a portfolio in his private desk. I noticed that Grawitz was always very careful to preserve the prescribed secrecy. He was very particular to settle secret matters personally and orally, if possible, not in the presence of a third person.
"Orders could only come from Grawitz. Poppendick had no authority to give me or my subordinates orders or instructions. Poppendick had neither the position nor the authority of a chief of staff. I also did not notice that Poppendick had any other powers conferred upon him by Grawitz.
"On the contrary, I was more of the impression that Grawitz even after 1 September 1943, settled all the essential office matters himself and only occasionally gave incidental commissions to Poppendick.
"I was never aware that the Reich Physician SS held staff conferences for the purpose of planning experiments on human beings."
Then follows the signature and the certification of Blumenreuter.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Court, I have a question to ask of the interpreting division, whether or not when Counsel refers to "personal office," he intends "personal" office or "personnel" office. I wonder if that is clear, whether the word is "personal" or "personnel."
DR. BOEMM: Quoting from my statement in this connection, there can be no doubt that it was a matter of a chief of the personal office, and not personnel office.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the term "personal office" is a little ambiguous. You might offer some explanation as to just what a personal office is. We understand the term "personnel" as taking in employees; we can imagine what a personal office might be, but some explanation might be helpful.
DR. BOEMM: Perhaps the name "personal office" or the activity of the man in charge of this office, activity connected with the staff of this office. But I would find it most useful to clarify this matter later; I would like to question the Defendant in this matter. Regarding the translation, it should be without doubt that it is not the personnel chief but the chief of the personal office.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may offer an explanation of the term when convenient.
DR. BOEMM: In connection with the questioning of the Defendant, I would like to clarify this matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may do so at his convenience.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(Recess until 1330 hours, 8 April 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 8 April 1947) THE MARSHAL:
The Tribunal is again in session.
HELMUT POPPENDICK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY DR. BOEHM:
Q I would like to read now from the document which has already been offered, HBO2, the declaration by Dr. Jung, Part 1, which is also in connection with the Grawitz Office. I quote:
From my own knowledge, I can state the following:
1. Workings of the Grawitz office.
While I was working there, until 1940 (April), the office was not particularly important and business there was of minor importance. In effect, the office exhausted itself in attempts at re-construction work.
From the beginning of the war until I left, I was almost exclusively concerned with the organization and training in appropriate schools and courses of the doctors drafted for war service - I was very frequently outside Berlin. (Munich-Freimann, Stralsund, etc.) The management of the office was roughly as follows:
Unless he dealt personally with the mail, Grawitz used the services of his secretary who sat in the antechamber, to receive and deal with the correspondence.
For important or secret mail, Grawitz used his own safe; he kept the key carefully and never let it out of his sight. It was the task of the secretary to sort the incoming mail, and important letters recognized as such by the return address, or secret letters, especially when addressed to Grawitz by name, had to be handed to him unopened. No one else knew about his current conferences or special tasks in the office, because he dealt with them directly in private with the special advisers who came to report or to work on these matters.
It should be added that Grawitz was kept busy in his capacity as managing president of the German Red Cross and could find only little time to work in his SS office, certainly dealt with many things directly concerning the SS, in his other office.
DR. BOEHM: At a later time I shall submit another affidavit by the chief dentist in the office of the Reichsarzt-SS, Dr. Plaschke, and in the interest of speeding up matters, I shall not cross examine this witness although he has arrived a few days ago in Nurnberg.
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Witness, I would like to ask you now to answer the question of the President of the Tribunal. What difference was there between the chief of the personnel office and the chief of the personal office of the Reichsarzt-SS Grawitz? How do you explain the difference between these two offices in relation to your own position in the office of Dr. Grawitz?
A The so-called personal office doubtless means an office dealing with the correspondence of the Reichsarzt would have gone through this office. The name personal office is unusual in ministry or military organizations. I imagine that this word comes from Himmler himself who apparently liked new formulations. It means nothing but an ordinary office. A personnel office did not exist under the Reichsarzt-SS. There was the personnel main office, and in this personnel main office there was a branch which dealt with medical matters. It is true that Grawitz had a liaison man in this main office that was the adjutant. This established a connection between Grawitz and the personnel main office.
Q I think this seems to be clarified. Did you give signatures apart from the correspondence with the Schwarze Korps in your capacity as chief of the personal office of the Reichsarzt-SS Grawitz?
A. That had nothing to do with my work as chief of the personal office. Before 1943 and afterwards, it happened on various occasions that I signed - that was very rarely. And it was always unimportant things. It happened occasionally that Grawitz did not want to sign some letter and assigned someone lese to do it, either the adjutant or Wille or myself. It also happened in a very few cases that Grawitz dictated something which was not finished when he left. If it was a matter of minor importance, then he told the secretary that he did not want to wait for it, that she was to get the signature from me or from someone else who was in the building.
Q Did you generally receive the order from Grawitz to sign without any special authority in specific matters?
A. No.
Q From your affidavit as to the person it becomes evident that until the fall of 1944 you were the leading physician in the Race and Settlement Office. Did you receive a successor in the fall of 1944?
A Yes, that was Dr. E Reil. He had worked in the Race and Settlement Office earlier. Originally, Reil was to be recalled from the army in '43. He had been drafted at the beginning of the war just as I had been. He was to be recalled because I was to be given an assignment at the front, but the army did not release him and the matter dragged on until the fall of 1944; then he was released by the army and he was given the title Leading Physician in the Race and Settlement Main Office. The head of the Race and Settlement Main Office at the time did not quite approve.
He required me - for the first few months at least - I was to take care of the business of the Race and Settlement Main Office.
Q Did you receive a front assignment after this, in connection with this?
A I waited for it from one month to the next, but apparently the disorganization and the scattering of the SS formations had progressed so far that nothing came of it. Moreover, there were difficulties which I mentioned before.
Q Under Count 1 you are accused of conspiracy. Whom of the co-defendants did you know?
A 12 of the defendants I did not know at all. By name I knew Professor Blome. By name and by sight I knew Professor Karl Brandt, Professor Handloser, Professor Rostock and Dr. Fischer, but I do not know whether these people knew me. I knew slightly Sievers and Gebhardt and Rudolf Brandt. And I knew only Dr. Genzken and Professor Mrugowsky well, but officially I saw them only rarely.
Q Did you take part in the sessions of the Consulting Physicians?
A Yes, I participated in the last two meetings in 1943 and '44.
Q In these conferences did you take part by order or as a deputy of Grawitz?
A No, and I never reported to Grawitz, and I would not have attended the meeting in 1943 unless I had made efforts myself to attend it. I took advantage of this as a good opportunity to keep myself informed of current developments as an internist, as far as I had time to listen to the lectures. For that reason I asked Grawitz in 1943 to give me a ticket.