A Yes. The document from the I. G. Farben Industry proved that I was mistaken at that time and that I was mistaken to my disadvantage.
DR. FLEMMING: The next document I want to offer -
THE PRESIDENT: It is time for our recess. I desire to state in regard to the conversation between Counsel and the Court concerning a witness who was to be called this week if present that an order was signed to call the witness and the order provided that the witness would be heard if he appeared this week. I had not been advised whether' or not the witness was available and had come to Nurnberg, and I had forgotten that witness was called by the Defendant Hoven, but that is the fact. If the witness is available tomorrow, the witness will be hoard and put upon the stand, but I do not know whether or not the witness is here and will be available tomorrow.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, are you speaking of the witness that was discussed by the Prosecution before?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. FLEMMING: Or are you -
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I ask to have permission to call the witness, Horn, on Monday. The witness horn told me that he was exhausted as a result of his journey and he had to deal with a number of formalities here. I, therefore, had not any opportunity as yet to speak to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, Counsel, what is the name of the witness that you mentioned?
DR. GAWLIK: Dr. Horn.
THE PRESIDENT: As I remember it, the witness who was summoned by the Tribunal was Dietsch.
DR. GAWLIK: The witness, Dietsch, was called by my colleague, Dr. Flemming.
DR. FLEMMING: Dietsch is the former Capo of Block 46, and I asked for him. Up to this point I have received no information telling me that the witness has arrived. The witness however, that the Prosecution talked about at the beginning of the session was not Dietsch, but it was the witness, Dr. Horn about whom Dr. Gawlik was just speaking. This Dr. Horn has already arrived here, but Dietsch has not arrived as yet.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, the sun and substance of my request earlier in the day is simply this: Dr. Horn I assumed was to return immediately to Czechoslovakia because of his business or some other such reason, and if they want Dr. Horn to take the stand on Friday, that is tomorrow, either after direct examination of Mrugowsky or in between time, I am perfectly agreeable. However, if I start crossexamination of Mrugowsky on Friday afternoon -- and I am sure it will run into Monday -- I do not wish to be interrupted during the course of the cross-examination this time in the manner that I was the last time. Of course, if the Tribunal rules that I may be interrupted -- but I will not agree to be interrupted, and if Horn is here and they want to put him on the stand -- Defense Counsel has had all day today to talk to him -- I don't see why he couldn't take the stand tomorrow and return to wherever he has to go.
THE PRESIDENT: I would ask Counsel for Defendant Hoven if the witness Horn can be used sometime tomorrow prior to the opening of the cross-examination of the Defendant, Mrugowsky.
MR. HARDY: In addition to that, Your Honor, the Delegate of the Czechoslovakian Legation just tells me that Dr. Horn has specifically requested to depart from here on Saturday.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I am not going to interrupt the cross-examination of the Prosecuting Attorney.
With agreement of the Tribunal and the Prosecution, I shall either call the witness, Horn, before the cross-examination or after the cross-examination.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in that connection I may say that the direct examination will probably take up all of Friday.
THE PRESIDENT: Then Counsel for the Prosecution advises all present, all concerned, that the witness is requested to return to Czechoslovakia Saturday. I understood Counsel for Defendant Mrugowsky to state that he was willing that his examination should be interrupted tomorrow for the hearing of this witness.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I spike to the witness this morning, and according to what the witness told me, it is now absolutely necessary for him to return on Saturday. It would be all right, he said, to return on Monday, but, at any rate, I shall either examine him before the cross-examination or after the cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Very well. Well, now, just one moment. Yesterday Counsel for Defendant Mrugowsky had several exhibits identified that were not offered in evidence. They received numbers. I would suggest that at the opening of tomorrow's session those exhibits be formally offered because the Tribunal now has available the supplementary document book, and can note their entries as exhibits upon that book.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until nine-thirty o' clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 28 March 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 28 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is new in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you have ascertained that all of the defendants are present in Court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed with the examination of the witness MRUGOWSKY.
JOACHIM MRUGOWSKY - Resumed (Direct Examination - Continued)
DR. FLEMING: (Counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky) Mr. President, yesterday at the end of the session you ruled that I submit an index of the documents which I have read but which I hadn't yet submitted because they are in the supplemental document book and give then exhibit numbers.
I should like to offer Mrugowsky Document 4-a, which is to be found in the supplemental document book, I, page 76. It is an exerpt from the Reich Legal Gazette of the year 1917, regarding treatment of viruses. I offer this as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 27. That is document Mrugowsky 4-a.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, counsel. Will you please repeat that offer?
DR. FLEMING: It is document Mrugowsky 4-A. The Tribunal has not as yet available the supplemental volume, and it hasn't been translated yet.
It is document Mrugowsky 4aA in supplemental volume I, page 76. I offer it as exhibit Mrugowsky No. 27.
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor. This is extremely confusing for me, as I have three Mrugowsky document books now: Document books 1-, 1-a and 2; and now he speaks of a supplemental volume which doesn't include the documents in the index, and I wonder if he could clear that up.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has only two English documents books of Mrugowsky so far.
DR. FLEMING: The Tribunal has so far 1 and 1-A, Document Volume 2 has not yet been translated. After it was completed, I yet received a number of other documents.
THE PRESIDENT: We cannot proceed with these documents which are in supplement book No. 2. There were several offered and narked as exhibits which were to be included in Mrugowsky document book 1-A, which we now have, and I thought in so far as those documents were concerned they could now be properly admitted in evidence.
DR. FLEMING: Yes, I beg your pardon. I misunderstood the Tribunal. I offer Mrugowsky 2, which is to be found on page 153 of the document book 1-a. This is an excerpt from the Reich Legal Gazette of 1900, to be found at page 306, and concerns the duty of reporting so-called commonly dangerous diseases, such as leprosy, cholera, typhus, yellow fever and small pox. I offer it as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 28. Again, Mrugowsky No. 2., on page 153 --
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, I am sure Dr. Fleming misunderstood this Tribunal. This seems to be an entirely new offer that has never been referred to. I think he is now proceeding to put in all of his documentary evidence.
DR. FLEMING: The document was mentioned yesterday when Mrugowsky said in case of dangerous diseases the SS hospital treatment was considered to be a front line duty.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct.
MR. HARDY: I nave never marked it in my book as being offered before, your Honor, and I understood you to mean documents he has offered before.
THE PRESIDENT: As I remember the matter, counsel stated for some reason this document was not ready to be offered, but if counsel for the Prosecution has any objection to the document being offered at this time it will be delayed, and if counsel has no objection we will proceed. That is Mrugowsky document No. 21?
DR. FLEMING: I offer document Mrugowsky No. 21 in connection with the testimony of the defendant Mrugowsky that treatment of dangerous diseases within the Waffen SS was considered to be a front line duty. I wasn't in a position to identify that document yesterday, because the English translation was not yet available. The English translation only arrived during the session yesterday. For the same reason I didn't identify another two documents yesterday, the first is Mrugowsky document 19 which is on page 154. This is an excerpt from a paper of the defendant Mrugowsky from the medical clinic periodical regarding typical and abnormal courses of the disease of typhus. The defendant Mrugowsky mentioned this paper when asked the question whether typhus was extremely prevalent in Germany. He stated in that connection that, for instance, in Naples, the American commission had found cases where human beings, after failing ill of typhus, fell dead in the s streets. Similar cases were described in his paper and I am now submitting as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 29, document Mrugowsky 19, on page 154, which will become exhibit No. 29. In that connection I should like to ask the defendant:
BY DR. FLEMING:
Q Witness, can you state under your oath that the cases which you mentioned in your paper were actually happening in the manner in which you recorded them?
A The observations which lead me to this paper were made in the year 1941, that is during the first time when typhus ever came up in Germany. They are not based on observations in concentration camps but on observations with the army and civilian populations of the occupied Eastern territories. In that connection, cases were observed whore within a space of two days persons died without having regained their consciousness.
Q This paper was published in the Medical Clinic Periodical which appeared on 27 February, 1942? When did this paper have to be submitted by you in order to appear on the 27th of February 1942.
A The manuscript for any such publication would have to be submitted about three months before it's publication in a weekly paper to the publishing house. There would have to be corrections made, et cetera, and it is certain that this paper was finished at the end of 1941 and then submitted to the editor's office.
Q That was at a time when the human experiments in Buchenwald had not yet started?
A Yes, that is right. That has nothing whatsoever to do with these experiments.
DR. FLEMING: As the last of the documents to be submitted yet, I offer Mrugowsky No. 63, which is to be found on page 171 of document book 1. Again No. 63, on page 171 - this is one of the documents originating from Marburg --
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, counsel.
DR. FLEMING: On page 71, Mr. President, document Mrugowsky No. 63, page 71.
This is one of the documents which I received from Marburg, and for which, according to the ruling of the Tribunal, I shall submit photostats of the original with certification of it's authenticity. This is a file notation which was made by Dr. Denmitz, who was mentioned repeatedly yesterday, the head of the Behring Works in Marburg, about the conference of the 29th of December 1941. On the last page, page 4 of the document, this is page 74 of the document book, it is stated:
"A plan of experiments was discussed with Dr. Mrugowsky; Weigel's vaccine and the vaccine of the Robert Koch institute were included in this plan. When we asked that the vaccine of the Behring works should also be included in this test, Professor Gildemeister remarked that he was not interested in them. In the course of later discussions he probably realized that this peculiar point of view - for it was regarded as such by all participants - could not be maintained and he advised us to get in touch with Dr. Mrugowsky himself, so that this vaccine too, might be included in the test. Regarding this it was intended to have tne vaccine ready in its present form and in the double concentration for those experiments and to inform Dr. Mrugowsky on 6 January after his return from Kiew."
This is a confirmation of something I already proved yesterday by other documents. I offer that as Mrugowsky Exhibit No. 30. As I said before, I shall later submit photostatic copies of the original.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, counsel. Counsel, I think you did not understand me. On the first day of the opening of the case of the defendant, Mrugowsky, as I remember, you offered three documents in evidence. At that time Document book 1-A had not been prepared, and the documents were not av ailable in the English translation.
Nevertheless, exhibit numbers were assigned to these documents, and those documents were the only ones to which I referred. I was not endeavoring to interfere with the orderly trial of your case as you desire to conduct it, but it did occur to me that it would be a good idea to have those documents to which exhibit numbers had been assigned, definitely narked in our books as exhibits received, and those were the only documents to which I referred.
DR. FLEMING: In that case I misunderstood the Tribunal. Using the index I may perhaps compare the documents and the exhibit numbers once more.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel it is not necessary to do that now. You nay take the time and find those three documents later and submit then later on in the day, so that we can regularly mark them.
MR. HARDY: I might submit, your Honor, that two of the documents you are referring to, one is exhibit 17 on page 159, and exhibit 6, page 167, those two he had referred to before. We received one document book 1-A, that wild be page 159, that is No. 17, and then page 167, which is No. 6.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not believe that has been given an exhibit number, has it, Mr. Hardy?
MR. HARDY: Yes, I have it marked as Exhibit No. 6, Your Honor. Now those are the only ones that I have as haven't been introduced before.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat again the document number of Mrugowsky No. 6.
MR. HARDY: That is document Mrugowsky No. 26, Exhibit No. 6, which is an affidavit of Dr. Karl Blumenreuther on page 167 of the document book 1-A.
DR. FLEMING: And Dr. Mrugowsky No. 48 on page 154
THE PRESIDENT: Mrugowsky document No. 26?
DR. FLEMING: No. 23 is Exhibit 6. That is on page 167.
MR. HARDY: Does the Court also have Mrugowsky document 23 marked exhibit 26? I think that taxes care of all the documents which have been introduced today in document book 1-A.
JUDGE SEBRING: What page is that on.
MR. HARDY: That would be on page 161, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The matter is possibly completed and counsel nay proceed with the examination.
Q The defendant was answering the question yesterday at the close of the session whether he remembered his testimony on the 25 July 1946 on the occasion of his preliminary interrogation about Rutenol and Acridin experiments, and whether he was in error at that time. The witness stated that he actually made a mistake on the occasion of that preliminary interrogation, and on the basis of documents presented and those he had obtained in the meantime he again remembers correctly the facts. In this connection I should like to submit a number of documents. The first will be Mrugowsky document No. 24, on page 128, of Document Book I-a. This document Mrugowsky 24 on page 128. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 31. This is an affidavit of Professor Bieling at Marburg. After the customary introduction he states:
"During a visit at the office of Herr Mrugowsky, Dr. Ding told me that he had received Nitroacridin drugs from the dye works in Hoechst, in order to test their effect on persons ill with typhus and that the results which he had achieved were unsatisfactory. I reported that afterwards in Hoechst. As far as I remember, however, Herr Mrugowsky was not present at this conversation with Dr. Ding."
As the next document I offer Document Mrugowsky 43 which is to be found on page 129 of the same document book. I repeat Document 43 on page 129. This will become Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 32. This is an affidavit of one Heinrich Neumann, who is a member of the Dye Works at Hoechst. He states in his affidavit, after the customary introduction, and I quote:
"I know Dr. Mrugowsky, the former Hygienist of the Waffen-SS. His defense counsel submitted the question to me, whether I ever discussed with Dr. Mrugowsky therapeutical experiments with the drugs Acridin, Methylcn blue or Rutenol which were to be carried out on persons sick with typhus.
"In this connection I state the following;
"1. The drugs Acridin and Methylcn blue Rutenol, - I do not know Rutenol, - are being produced by the works, N. Hoechst. The sale was effected by Bayer-Leverkusen. The scientific handling of these drugs was made by the Production department, by the scientists of the firm Bayer in Leverkusen and by the scientists of the Berlin offices of the firm Bayer.
"2. I myself was only deputy to the commercial manager of the department Behring works at Leverkusen and only handled commercial affairs.
"3. As the department Bayer and Behring works wore completely separated from one another, I had never anything to do with these drugs and therefore could never conduct any negotiations about them. Therefore I could not have spoken and actually never spoke with Dr. Mrugowsky about such therapeutical experiments, and I never gave him those drugs for such experiments."
The next is a document Mrugowsky 88. It is to be found on page 88 of the Document Book. I beg your pardon, I made a mistake. It is to be found on page 227. It is Mrugowsky 88, on page 227, of Document Book 1-a. This is an affidavit of Karl Ludwig Lautenschlaeger who was the head of the pharmaceutics of the Hoechst Dye Works. I repeat Document Mrugowsky No. 88 on page 227. I offer this document as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 33. Lautenschlaeger states, after the customary introduction, and I quote:
"Since about 1928 I was director of the pharmaceutical department of the Hoechster Dyeing Plant of the I. G. Farben Industrie A.G, and since 1938 manager of the factory. Our pharmaceutical preparation Balkanol, has for at least 15 years been used in clinical tests again and again causing suppuration especially against sepsis.
"When typhus was spreading rapidly at the beginning of the war, I suggested to the competent experts of the firm to ascertain whether any of our preparations would act against typhus. Mr. Fussgaenger had experimented with Balkanol on a typhus strain pathogene to mice and had obtained good results. I therefore arranged that this preparation be distributed to various clinics and military hospitals and tested there. For this purpose it was called 3582.
"One day, I cannot exactly remember when, Dr. Weber told me that a SS-Doctor, Dr. Ding, wanted to come to Hoechst, in order to inspect our experimental set-up personally. I told Dr. Weber to bring him over to me as well, as I wanted to talk to him, if my time would permit it. I thought that Dr. Ding came from a military hospital in Berlin.
"I had a short talk with Dr. Ding, during which he made an allusion which struck me. He showed me a number of curves of the cases treated in his clinic, the results of which I queried in comparison with other results. Thereupon Dr. Ding said that my cases are very carefully observed and very well treated. He dropped a remark to the effect that his cases were partly, or altogether, dosed infection. I replied that this did not mean anything to me, and I asked him whether he had used any serum. He answered evasively, and sai amongst other things, that he had inoculated as well, I, thereupon, broke off the conversation rather abruptly and informed Dr. Ding on his request for further preparations that unfortunately we were unable to put further material at his disposal for experiments. As the conversation with Dr. Ding and his remark had made a strong impression on me, I asked Dr. Weber to come to me alone soon afterwards and I forbade him absolutely to supply further prepara tions to Dr. Ding or to correspond with him.
"The reports of other clinics about their results with Rutenol and Akridin-Granulate in typhus cases were relative favorable. I especially remember Professor Holler in Vienna and Professor Alvens in Frankfurt a.M., Municipal Hospital Sachsenhausen who, as far as I can remember, treated about 30 cases of typhus with that preparation.
"I only knew Professor Mrugowsky by name and I have never seen him nor spoken to him. There is nothing known to me about our supplying him with our preparations Rutenol or Akridin for his experiments in Buchenwald."
I further offer Document Mrugowsky 65 which is on page 108 of the same Document Volume. This is an affidavit made by Dr. Bruemmer of the Hoechs Dye Works. I offer that as Mrugowsky Exhibit 34. Dr. Bruemmer says, after the customary introduction:
"I assert under oath that according to the results of the investigations which I carried out most scrupulously, the two exposes attached to this Affidavit of the I. G. Farbenindustrie A.G., Frankfurt on Main-Hoechst, Chemi cal-pharmaceutical and Sero-bacteriological Department, were used in this for in the year 1943 to make known the two preparations nitroacridin 3582 and rutenol."
There follow two exposes which I only submit to the Tribunal for its judicial notice without reading them, with the fever charts attached.
Two further documents in connection with that point are contained in the Supplementary Volume which I shall submit at a later date.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q You know the entry in the Ding Diary of the 10th of June 1943, regarding the typhus therapeutical experiments with Othromin. Would you please define your position to that?
A I don't know the preparation Othromin. I only heard about that experiment by looking through Document No. 263. At any rate I had nothing to do with that series of experiments.
DR. FLEMMING: I submit to the Tribunal the Document No. 85. This can be found on page 222 of the Document Book I a. I repeat Mrugowsky 85, on page 222. This is the affidavit of the former Obermedizinalrat Dr. med. Christiansen who was active in the Ministry of the Interior. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No. 35. Werner Christiansen says, after the customary intro duction, and I quote:
"I was from 20/5/1940 onward one of the persons dealing with epidemic in the Medical Department of the Reich Ministry for Home Affairs. In this capacity I received the reports about epidemics which occurred among the civilian population of the Reich.
"In 1932 a violent epidemic of typhoid broke out at Husum, in Schleswig-Holstein. Infected crabs were soon found to be the carriers. When I worked on this epidemic, I remembered several articles of Professor Lockemann, Director of the Chemical Department of the Robert-Koch-Institute in Berlin, dating from 1930. In these publications Lockemann reported about the secretion of rhodanium in the human gastric juice. Rhodanium here has the effect, as Lockemann shows, of increasing the germicidal power of the gastr: juice 60 to 200 fold."
Then follows the suggestion of Christiansen who developed a preparation in order to help the gastric juices to prevent. He described how he experimented on himself and continually had his gastric juices examined and then he states:
"Those experiments on my own body took place from the beginning until the middle of 1943. After I had at the beginning of my experiments, shown the preparation to agree with the human organism and had reported to Conti hereon? he declared: I should recommend the preparation to medical officers in case of typhus, typhoid and dysentery epidemics, for preventive use by the population. This was done about the middle of 1943 in the districts Oppeln, Dresden, Posen and Danzig and Western Prussia.
"Conti told me casually that he would, if the occasion arose cause the preparation to be used in a SS-formation by one Dr. Ding.
"About the fall of 1943 Conti gave me about 30 charts of patients which I was to evaluate. He said they were the charts of a typhus epidemic in an SS-formation.
"I gathered from the charts that Othromin had been administered to the patients for therapeutical use. After the outbreak of a disease it cannot have any healing effect according to its nature? it is intended for prevention only and its preventive effect comes from its killing in the stomach bacteria that have been brought there with the food.
"Accordingly it had no effect when it was used with the SS.
"Through what channel Othromin or the suggestion to use the preparation came from Conti to Dr. Ding, I do not knew. Othromin was also available through trade channels.
"Dr. Ding was not known to me, nor did I know Grawitz.
"I become acquainted with Mrugowsky in the Reich Ministry for Home Affairs at a meeting concerning the introduction of the continuous testing through State Organizations, of all vaccines against typhus manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry through the "Institute for Experimental Therapy" in Frankfurt a/M., and again at a second meeting of the Executive Committee for Disinfection and Protection against Epidemics. His name would therefore have definitely stuck in my memory, if it had been mentioned in connection with the Othromin business."
Then he further states that he wrote a paper about Othromin.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q Do you have anything to say on that affidavit?
A This affidavit shows, first, that this preparation was not develop* upon our instigation but upon the instigation of the Ministry of the Interior. Secondly, that Conti had himself told Dr. Christiansen that he, Conti, would have this drug tested by Dr. Ding. Furthermore, that he himself had received 30 case histories which he handed over to Dr. Christiansen for his evaluation. Obviously, Conti exercised a direct influence on Dr. Ding for he states that he would have this drug used and he did not say that Ding would act on his own initiative in any other manner. He is speaking in a very definite manner. Furthermore, it is also confirmed here that there must have been a channel of some kind going from Conti to Ding and this, naturally, also confirmed that I had nothing to do with it.
Q Now, I come to the question as to whether in regard to the typhus experiments conducted by Ding you can be held responsible for any reason at all. Would you please state how the subordinate relationship of Dr. Ding was?
A When Himmler, in the year of 1941, ordered the experimentation on human beings Ding was assigned for this experiment by order of Himmler, probably at the suggestion of Grawitz. I remember a written order by Himmler which was held very brief. He said that these experiments were to be carried through and he furthermore stated that Dr. Ding was to be assigned for that purpose, which would not prejudice his tasks which he was carrying out up to this point. That was an additional task. This task he was carrying out then would he felt very greatly outside the scope of his channel of command, to the task which he held up to that point - the preparation of vaccines. The human experiments, however, were a new field of work. It would not fall with his old field of work and would not fall within this relationship of command.
Q Was it possible for such a double subordination to exist? In that case Ding would have to be subordinate to you for the production of vaccines and subordinate to Grawitz for the typhus experiments.
A Such a double subordination was not only possible within the SS b* throughout the entire Wehrmacht. It is quite feasible that one belongs to one agency and, in spite of that, carries through an order for another agency and on their responsibility.
I personally an an example for that. When in the year 1%3, before the reorganization of the Medical Service of the SS, I was subordinate to Dr. Genzken. I was assigned by Dr. Grawitz for special tasks and, in case of these special tasks, was subordinate to Dr. Grawitz and not Dr. Genzken. As it appears technically, Dr. Grawitz had a right to issue comman in specialized matters but from personnel and organization point of view, one would have to say that the man concerned was assigned to that alien agency for the carrying out of those special tasks. That is the technical explanation of that situation.
Q In order to prove your correctness of the statement that such a double situation of subordination is possible. I also refer to the affidavit of the Chief of the former Operational Main Office of the Waffen-SS Hans Juettner, which can be found in Supplementary Volume to Document Book Benzken, document no. 15. This confirms that situation. In addition I mention the affidavit of the former 1-A personnel man of the Waffen-SS, the expert working on personnel questions. Unfortunately my application to obtain an affidavit from that export has not yet been approved and I shall, therefore, submit it at a later date. From the point of view of channel of command you had nothing to do with typhus experiments of Dr. Ding at Buchenwald?
A The instigation and basic order emanated from the highest agency. As I said before I could exercise no influence on the individual series of experiments. Naturally, I could exercise no influence or furnish inmates since I was not competent to deal with concentration camp organization and had no access to it and, therefore, could have nothing to do with it.
DR. FLEMMING: I now refer to tho document which was already submitted by me - number 38.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment. You referred to an application for the taking of an affidavit of a witness. What was the name of that witness whose affidavit you desired?
DR. FLEMMING: Ruoff. R-U-O-F-F. The first name is Joachim. He is in in prison. 5143
THE PRESIDENT: When did you make an application for approval of your leave to take an affidavit of that witness?
DR. FLEMMING: That was probably two or three weeks ago, Mr. President
THE PRESIDENT: Please check that matter with the Defendants Information Center because, as far as I am advised, all applications have been passed on very promptly. Probably the application had been mislaid.
I now refer to the document, the affidavit which was submitted as Exhibit 13 of the former secretary of Mrugowsky which is to be found on Page 48 of the document volume. I am reading from this affidavit, starting at Page 50, paragraph 4, and I quote. I repeat, Page 50, of the document book, paragraph 4:
"I assume with certainty that no written instructions for tests on prisoners reached Ding through Mrugowsky. I never typed any such instructions. It also never came to my knowledge that my deputy ever wrote such a letter during my absence.
"It was customary in the Institute for Mrugowsky to issue to the heads of the specialist departments in writing all instructions for the work to be carried out. The formulation was approximately as follows: 'The following question seems interesting in this or that connection (exactly specified in the instructions). Please test this question by experiment, collect the most important publications, and report back to me.' This custom to issue instructions in writing dated at least from 1942. All the correspondence between Mrugowsky and Ding was exclusively concerned with the laboratory in Buchenwald where the vaccine was manufactured, and later on, from 1944 onwards, mainly with the Kammler Works. Mrugowsky only gave written instructions for these matters and for the distribution of vaccine, never for any kind of tests on prisoners.
"I can also testify that Mrugowsky never gave telephonic orders for tests to Dr. Ding. Because whenever Mrugowsky conducted an important conversation ever the telephone, whether it was an incoming or an outgoing call, he always dictated to me afterwards a note for the files giving the essential points of the conversation. I can say with certainty that he never dictated a note for the files about a long distance telephone conversation with Dr. Ding-Schuler in which typhus tests on prisoners were mentioned or any kind of instructions for such experiments were given. I can say this with absolute certainty because I knew Mrugowsky's adverse attitude towards such experiments, and a memorandum of that nature would have attracted my attention.
"7. Ding's reports about his tests on prisoners went via the Hygiene Institute to Grawitz. These reports, however, were not dealt with by me, but by Stabsscharfuehrer Heinz Hollaender. I do not know whether Mrugowsky defined his detailed position in these reports or whether he made use of them in any way.
"Nothing became known to me about Dr. Ding having reported about typhus passages on prisoners. I neither heard anything about it from conversations in the Institute.
"Had the tests on human beings been carried out through the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS under Mrugowsky's responsibility, the doctors at the Institute would have been working on the practical application and there would certainly have been frequent conversations about these experiments in the institute. I cannot remember any conversation ever having taken place about typhus tests on prisoners."
I further submit the document which was already offered as Exhibit 16. Mrugowsky 39 on Page 39. I repeat, Document Mrugowsky #39 on Page 59. This is the former secretary of Dr. Mrugowsky and she says, on page 60 of the document book, and I quote:
"During my activity at the Hygiene Institute it has never come to my attention that Professor Mrugowsky ever gave an order to Dr. Ding to conduct a series of typhus experiments on prisoners. I know that Professor Mrugowsky issued all work orders to the section chiefs of the Institute in form of written file notes. If a telephone conversation concerned a matter of some importance, Professor Mrugowsky also dictated a file note on it. A file note was also made on more important official conferences.
"According to my observations, Dr. Ding was only very seldom at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS to see Professor Mrugowsky. As far as I remember, I have seen him only once, or, at the most twice, at the institute and then only for a very short while.
I do not know anything about the requisitioning of prisoners from Buchenwald for the purpose of conducting typhus experiments. I never heard anything of it at the Hygiene Institute."