Q. Well, General, you haven't answered my question. I can only draw the conclusion from this letter that at a minimum these four Luftwaffe men were preparing to make experiments on human beings with jaundice. Now you have indicated a contrary view, but I am asking you to explain the language in here, such as "I cannot at present definitely answer your inquiry about human experiments." And then: "Naturally, I have already arranged with Herr Kalt that we shall undertake that type of experiments," referring to human experiments, "with our material." Now what is your explanation for those words unless it means what is says, that they are getting; ready to experiment on human beings with jaundice, these four Luftwaffe men?
A. First, I can only base my statements on the document because this whole business was not something which was communicated to us by the Luftwaffe. It can be seen from the document that the hepatitis research was resigned by the research institute and was not under control of the Luftwaffe. If I can return to my previous testimony I shall repeat that a working circle was built with no regard to membership in the individual Wehrmacht branches. In the affidavits that have been submitted in the document books it can be ascertained that neither Buchner nor Kalk made any preparations for human experiments or intended to carry such out.
Q. Now, General, I can appreciate you have some difficulty with the question I put to you, but let's keep going along the line of your responsibility, what these men did, which I understand you deny or refuse to assume. I am also not interested in what Kalk and Buchner have to say their affidavits. I am just interested in this one letter, and I am asking you if it is not true that the only conclusion which can be drawn from this letter on it's face is that these men were preparing experiments on human beings with jaundice.
A. No, you cannot draw that conclusion because it says there the question put to Gutzeit regarding human experiments cannot at this time be answered. In other words, they were simply under consideration or discussion of this problem, but there was no decision to carry out these experiments on human beings.
Q. No can agree then at least that they were considering the matter. isn't that right, General?
A. That is true, yes.
Q. Look at the next letter, one page beyond, General, that is Document No. 126, Prosecution Exhibit No. 195, and this is a letter from Haagen to his collaborator Oberstarzt Professor Dr. Kalk, with the Chief the Luftwaffe Medical Service, Saalow: "Dear Herr Kalk:
In the enclosure I send you a copy of a letter from Gutzeit and my reply. I must proceed as soon as possible with the experiments on human beings. These experiments, of course, should be carried out in Strassburg or is it's vicinity."
And I might say parenthetically, General, they could get their subject from Eltzweiler, since sent was so close to Strassburg, and it goes on:
"Could you in your official position take the necessary stops to obtain their required experimental subjects? I don't know what sort of subjects Gutzeit has at his disposal, whether they are soldiers or other people" Signed, Haagen.
Now, General, doesn't this letter indicate they had a fixed intention to carry out experiments on human beings under subordinate Kalk, Haagen, Zuchswert and Buchner, isn't that right, General?
A. No, it simply says here that Haagen had the intention, but there I no word saying that Buchner or Kalk wants that. It is only Haagen's point of view, and he referred to the fact that Gutzeit is thinking along somethat the same lines.
Q. Well, General, I put it to you that this jaundice was a very serious problem, and I also want to call your attention to the date, that is June 27, 1944, and that was only, let's see, seventeen days after your letter to Himmler asking him for experimental subjects at Dachau?
A. That has nothing to do with this, that is altogether an artificial picture you are drawing.
This thing was never in my hands. It was not addressed to me. Haagen never received a commission to carry out hepatitis research from us. With that combination naturally you can do everything.
Q. General, yon are the man jumping at conclusions. I was suggestion to you or about to suggest to you that since this was only a couple of weeks after you had written Himmler, Kalk could undoubtedly not have had any objection to carrying out such experiments himself since he had men in the Luftwaffe who had agreed to carry out such experiments, isn't that possible?
A No. Kalk didn't know anything about the sea water experiments had nothing to do with them - and was also not part of my office. It was sent to Saalow because his house had been bombed out and mail went through us so we could forward it.
Q Now, you have indicated that Haagen and Kalk and Zuckschwerdt and Buechner, in so far as they worked on hepatitis, had received their orders from - what agency did you say?
A Neither Kalk nor Buechner - these were tow matters that overlapped. Haagen received no commission but rather did receive from the Reich Research Institute. This h 1 nothing to do with the Luftwaffe did that in the Hygienic Institute. And, as I said yesterday, consulting members were civilians and were subordinate only to the superior. Buechner was the consulting pathologist for the Luftwaffe and carried out the experiments for the Luftwaffe that fell to him. He had various work groups. There was one that concerned itself with pathology and hepatitis work. The liver punctates were examined there. He concerned himself only with the hepatitis state of affairs in the Luftwaffe hospitals. He was in special charge of certain hospital statements in which certain cases of hepatitis were recorded. A report of this can be found in the document book. These two were entirely separated things.
Q Now, Haagen was subject to the orders of the Luftwaffe, wasn't he?
AAs consulting hygienist only - in that capacity and none other.
Q Now, General, I can understand that the Reich Research Council could supply funds to Haagen to carry out a certain experiment but, as Hostock himself has told us, the Reich Research Council couldn't issue orders to Haagen or anybody else. They just supplied funds to make it possible to do the thing. Now, this man was subject to your orders?
A No. In this capacity he was not only in his capacity as consulting hygienist - not in the capacity as Director of Strassburg.
Q Well, suppose he spent all his time doing research work for the Reich Research Council. Are you just impotent in that situation or can you send down an order and say "Haagen, drop your work for the Reich Research Council."
A No, I could never have done such a thing because he was not subordinate to me as Institute Director. I had no influence over him. I could not have done such a thing.
Q Well, I am a little confused about this. You mean to say that although he was an officer in the Luftwaffe that really you couldn't order him to do anything he didn't want to do; that he could be an officer in the Luftwaffe but he could spend all his time working for the Reich Research Council and carrying out his duties with the University of Strassburg. He didn't have to do anything for the Luftwaffe, is that right?
A I testified yesterday and Handloser testified to the same effect regarding consulting doctors, that we sign certain compromises. It was often necessary for the consulting person to be retained for their work in the civilian sector. If we made too great demands on them in the Wehrmacht then they were made UK, that is, indispensable. And, in order to avoid that we had, as I said, to find certain compromise solutions to permit them as much civilian activity as possible - teachers or other matters, or not to make too great demands on them on the part of the Luftwaffe. As I have also said the supervisors were subordinate to the local civilian authorities in their capacity as supervisors and not to us and we had charge only in those fields in which we really had need of the. This is true of various people - Haagen, for example, who was both Institute- director and a teacher and Zucksckwert who had his own practice.
Q And you don't think it correct that Haagen as a matter of practice supplied the Luftwaffe with results of his research work - that is, all of his research work. He didn't have to have a special assignment from you, did he? He was doing something along the same line for the Reich Research Council which you were interested in - don't you think he told you about it?
A No. And, the document here clearly proves that his reports were sent to the Reich Research Council and not to us. The distribution is to be seen there - the place to which Haagen sent his reports. And, you must believe me about that - that the reports did not come to us. They were top secret and there is no reason they should have been shown to us. Matters that concerned the Wehrmacht are discussed in these reports, as in the case of the hepatitis research. Then, showing how to present hepatitis would have been clearly seen in the reports. However, since this did not exist there was no need to show us these reports.
Q Who was the President of the Reich Research Council, witness?
A I don't know. I know who the acting president was, that was Menzel. Reich Marshal Goering was the President. My office had nothing to do with that. I don't remember.
Q Well, you mentioned his name -- it was the Reich Marshal Goering. Tell the Tribunal what Goering -
A Yes. I heard it here.
Q Tell the Tribunal what Goering's position with the Luftwaffe was?
A The High Commissioner of the Luftwaffe - Commander in Chief on the Luftwaffe.
Q Now, tell us all you know, General, about the experiments of Haagen with typhus vaccine in the years 44-45?
A It can be said in one word - nothing.
Q Well, you knew he was doing some work with typhus vaccine, don't you?
A I knew that he had a typhus vaccine but I had no information as what he was working on at that time.
Q Why I thought you had already testified that you knew he was in the business of producing typhus vaccine, didn't you?
A Yes I did. And it could be seen from the commission for the research that he had been commissioned to produce typhus vaccine. That the total extent of my knowledge of this matter.
Q Do you know how much he produced? How many liters he produced down there?
A No.
Q Now, General, you know as a matter of fact that really his comission was to develop a good typhus vaccine through experimental study so that production could be instituted. You very well know that Haagen down there producing typhus vaccine on any scale, you know that, don't
A No. I didn't know the details as I have already testified in I? I had much more to do than concern myself with these matters that were unimportant to my real field of work. There were decidedly different task for me and worked day and night to concern myself with although these matters were interesting and important they belong in the academic room not in the actual office carrying on my business.
Q You left these matters up to Rose, didn't you, doctor?
A Rose and
Q Will you tell me again when you visited Haagen in 1944?
AAbout the 23 of May 1944 when I returned via Strassburg from France on an official trip and went to Berlin. I interrupted my trip in Strassburg to visit Zuckschwerdt who was director of the University Clinton and to see experiments that he was carrying on and that was the total ex* and reason for my visit in Strassburg. My time was limited by the fact that the train was five to six hours late and I arrived not early in the morning but at noon and had to go on almost immediately. It was important to me, since the question of surgical care was very pressing to us in the West those weeks, to have a talk with Zuckschwerdt on this question. That was my own special field -- my own special field was throat trouble. I was in to see a friend of mine in the Institute and it was so that I came to Haagen Institute and inspected the main halls of the laboratory -- a tour the institute so to speak. That is the way I had a visit with Haagen.
Q And you didn't take occasion to discuss what he was doing?
A. Yes, he told me of his vaccine experiments on animals. He told me about them previously.
Q. What vaccine was he working on then? The Dry Vaccine?
A. I can't say that for sure now. This visit was very superficial, and here also I was much more concerned with other matters. I have an image in my mind of the institute, a few laboratories, the animals' cages, and the fact that the work was being carried on there, but whether it was dry vaccine or some other vaccine I don't remember any more today.
Q. Was Rose with you?
A. No, my Adjutant, Agustinick, was with me and he can state his own opinion about this matter himself.
Q. Do you know whether your office received any typhus reports from Haagen?
A. A report that is among the documents here I received in which Haagen speaks of the production of vaccine, mainly vaccines from chicken embryos. Hos the question was discussed from a technical point of view I don't believe I have to discuss.
Q. Now, isn't it true that typhus problems were under the supervision of a central agency in Germany?
A. I don't understand what you mean.
A. Well, let me put to you part of your interrogation of the 2nd of October. You were asked this question: "Did Handloser, Rostock and Karl Brandt know that the Luftwaffe had given such orders to Professor Haagen; that Professor Haagen was working on such matters." Your answer: "Well, I can only say that such orders had already been given earlier. The questions on spotted fever were questions in which the whole Wehrmacht was interested and these matters were not organized by us. They were distributed by the central authority and then one person would get one section and the other would get another and Haagen got that special section." Question: "Did Doctors Brandt, Handloser and Rostock know about the experiments?"
Answer: "That was before my time. I believe that they know about it. I believe that the orders were distributed by the central office from Brandt to Handloser to the Wehrmacht and to the Luftwaffe; that they were all agreed that they had to work up this section and then said: 'Well, Haagen will undertake this matter'."
A. This is taken from an interrogation but I don't know what you are talking about - about the production of vaccine. The production of vaccine was arranged before my tine in such a way that the various branches took care of the production of it and delivered it. In this way there could be a supervision of the amount of vaccine available and how much was being produced.
Q. Well, if I understand the interrogation, you are saying that the central agency controlling typhus production matters was Brandt and Handloser and, later on, Rostock. Isn't that right?
A. No. Handloser did the distributing. It was probably worked out in this way - that Brandt was informed so that he would be in the picture.
Q. General, I want to put a document to you. It's already in the record. This is Document No. 122, Prosecution Exhibit 298. This is a letter from Rose, for whose activities you have assumed responsibility, and it's sent to Haagen. I just want to try to gain an admission from you that the Luftwaffe was implicated in the typhus experiments carried on by Haagen and that your office, and in particularly Rose, very well know what Haagen was doing. And Rose says in this letter: "Many thanks for your letter of 12 August. I regard it as unnecessary to make renewed special request to the SS Main Office in addition to the request you have already made." And, General, I'll remind you parenthetically that we have those requests by Haagen which were sent first to Hirt and then Hirt requested prisoners to be made available to Haagen. Rose goes on: "I request that in procuring persons for vaccination in your experiment you requisition a corresponding number if persons for vaccination with the Copenhagen vaccine.
This has the advantage, as also appeared in the Buchenwald experiments, that the testing of various vaccines simultaneously gives a clearer idea of their value than the testing of one vaccine alone." Dictated by Professor Rose and apparently signed by his adjutant.
A. Please look at the heading - upper right - 13 December 1943. At that time I was not inspector and I am not acquainted with these experiments.
Q. Well, but General, don't you think you are cutting that a little close? After all from December 1943 you went into office the 1st of January, 1944 and Haagen, as I shall show you in a moment, was very well carrying out experiments in 1944. As a matter of fact, they were carried out before you made your visit in May, 1944. Now, doesn't this letter indicate that Rose and the Luftwaffe knew what Haagen was doing?
A. Please ask Rose about that personally. I am not informed about this. I don't know anything about it. I am testifying here under oath and so I can't answer.
Q. General, I just want to point out to you that this Copenhagen vaccine, which he mentions in here, is the one which he sent on to Buchenwald to have them test it too. This was in 1944 after you were in office.
A. I heard that here during the trial. I didn't know about it previously and I again ask you to ask Rose about this. I can say nothing about this. I heard it here only during the trial.
Q. Whether you knew abort it or not, you have to assume responsibility for what he did after you took office.
A. No, I can't take over responsibility for things I knew nothing about - only for things that I knew about.
Q. Well, but General, that limits your responsibility rather closely. You are a very busy man. You can't be informed about all these little minor matters like experimenting on human beings.
I thought you had testified earlier that you were prepared to accept responsibility for what Rose did as a member of the Luftwaffe. Do I now understand that you refuse to accept responsibility for anything he did except those matters about which you knew?
A. I can only bear the responsibility for things that were directly connected with my work. It is erroneous to say "such minor matters as human experiments." At my opinion it is very serious. I think I can only take the responsibility if I know what's going on.
Q. Or if you should have known what was going on? How about that, General?
A. If I had found out that experiments were being carried out on human beings, such as they are being described here, with vaccinations and in a form that I repudiate, then I also would have known how to take measures against that.
Q. General, do you admit that, on the basis of the evidence here presented, Haagen carried out artificial infection experiments to test his typhus vaccines in the year 1944?
A. There is no proof of that at all. In the matter of typhus vaccine there is no proof whatsoever.
Q. I now show you Document No. 127, that is Prosecution Exhibit 316. This is another letter from Haagen to Hirt, dated 27 June 1944. The second paragraph reads: "However, in the subsequent innoculations with virulent spotted fever which are to be made for the purpose of testing the protective vaccine, one must count on sickness particularly in the control group which has not received the protective vaccine. These after-innoculations are desirable in order to establish unequivocally the effectiveness of the protective vaccines. This time 150 persons will be used for the protective vaccine and 50 for the control innoculations." What's your comment on that, General? Doesn't that show he was getting ready to carry out artificial infection experiments in the year 1944 when you wore Chief?
A Yes, but not under my commission. That I can say. We knew not about this. I repeat that again and again. If it had been known I should have had opportunity to adopt an attitude on this matter and to take me against it. Moreover, this letter says ... let me find the place ... it does not say at all that infections were carried out. It says, "in supplementation of my report I inform you that in the innoculations themselves there will not be a very long period of reaction or so long a period of reaction as previously observed." It says, in other words, that a vaccine ready and that it has been tried to a small extent, mainly in the institute (that is the regular practice in the case of new vaccines that they are tested.) Further, that there was no serious reaction -- the people did not even miss a day's work. Then it says further that the infections that are to be carried out later, to test this vaccine, etc. -- these subsequent infections are necessary in order to test the effectiveness of the dry vaccine; and to ascertain it the protective vaccine will be tried out on 150 persons and the other vaccines on 50 persons. Let me also point out in the vaccines are being tried out only people whose physical condition is similar to that of corresponding Wehrmacht soldiers. In other words, this is not an experiment that was actually carried out but is simply a proposed that Haagen is making and when I note the date of this letter, the 27 of June 1944, I can see that this proposal never became a reality because in the next month the war events took such a turn as to make such experiment; impossible. It was a proposal that Haagen made to Professor Hirt which never came to the attention of my office. It was a proposal that was made month after I visited Haagen. In other words, these are matters of which I could know nothing and for which I can, therefore, not be held in any way responsible. That was outside my competence. Had I seen this proposal I should not have approved it in this form.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. McHANEY: Now, General, let us try to reach some agreement about this Document No. 127, Prosecution Exhibit 316. Is it not true that the paragraph of this letter from Professor Haagen very clearly proves that Haagen was planning to make artificial infection experiments to test the effectiveness of this dried vaccine for typhus?
THE WITNESS: He had the plan from Rose from typhus vaccine experiments and typhus injections, but he did not intend for them to be fatal and it says nothing about that here; ha says that sickness was to be expected.
DR. HEINZ FRITZ: (Defense counsel for the Defendant Rose): Mr. President, a great deal of time has been spent in this trial concerning the correspondence of Professor Haagen to establish what he was doing at the University of Strassburg or in the concentration camp at Natzweiler. For this purpose these letters have been shown, in part, to prove that these experiments on hepatitis or typhus were made. No doubt, the prosecution, as well as I know that Professor Haagen is in Baden-Baden in French custody and his assistant, Miss Crodel is in Berlin. I do not understand why the prosecution did not call these two persons as witnesses, for in that way these letters could be explained much more easily. I would be glad if the prosecution would explain why they do not call these two people as witnesses
MR. McHANEY: I think the answer to that is perfectly obvious. Both Haagen and Miss Crodel are in custody and in the judgment of the prosecution, at least, are clearly implicated in the experiments on human beings, which resulted in the death of certain of these subjects, which has been testified to during this trial by the Witness Schmidt who worked at Strassburg. We are in a position to know and see reports concerning this matter. Obviously the prosecution is under no obligation to call witnesses who would be hostile. It is not to be expected that Professor Haagen, under the circumstances, would take the stand and admit that he carried out a single infection experiment on human beings without their consent. A reasonable conclusion would be exactly the contrary and the same is true with respect to his assistant, Miss Crodel.
If these witnesses are to be called, it is apparently open to any defense counsel to put in a request. I think some of than have already done so with respect to Miss Crodel. It is perfectly obvious that they are not possible prosecution witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Neither the prosecution or the defense are obligated to call witnesses save those that they desire to put on the stand. The Witness Crodel has been asked for by several defendants. Whether any of the other defense, counsels have requested Dr. Haagen, I do not remember but anyone can do so if they desire his attendance, Whether he can be procured is another matter, but the Tribunal would approve the order.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. General, let us continue and I want to hand you now Document No. 128 which has been introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 307. If you will observe, General, this is a secret memorandum from the Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe, dated 7 July, 1944 to Haagen among others and it concerns Haagen experiments with Miss Crodel on this new dried typhus vaccine. It reads in part as follows: "There are no objections against the publication of the memorandum." It is easy to see it refers to a memorandum by Haagen and Crodel on their experiments. It continues: "However we call attention to the fact that the presentation of the infection-results in diagram 1 and 2 differs from the usual presentation of vaccination-results concerning typhus and makes it more difficult for the reader to evaluate."
Now, General, this memorandum came from an organization subordinate to you, did it not?
A. Yes.
Q. By whom is this memorandum signed?
A. It is signed by the commanding officer of the Science and Research Department, Luxemburger. In the first place this is not a secret letter, it as an open letter. Secondly, it has already been said all work done by a scientist, or work written by a scientist during the war, had to have approval for publication by the competent military agency. That applied to members of the Luftwaffe and in that case the Instruction Group, Science and Research at the Medical Academy had the responsibility of all scientific matters and the writings were examined to see whether they contained any statement which for war purposes should not be published and that is how this work came through.
I do not know for sure as it did not come to me, I was given these things only in special cases by the commanding officer. First we have established contact with Luxenberger and asked whether he remembers having approved the work which mentioned experiments on human beings, he said "no". He said that he had not approved any work, that such experiments had not been conducted and that he had never seen such work. That is all I can say about it, but it was not my duty to read all this work myself as there was an office to do this.
Q. But at least General, Haagen was sending the report to the Luftwaffe concerning his experiments with this dried typhus vaccine; was he not?
A. I cannot say, I do not know the contents of this report and I do not know what it says. He reported on dried vaccine, I can see that from this memorandum which says Experiments with a new dried typhus vaccines that is right at the top, but it does not show what kind of experiments were conducted.
Q. Whether it tells that or not, General, I want to ask you what you interpret this presentation of the infection-results to mean as contrasted to the vaccination results, As a lay-man, I am inclined to interpret that to mean they tested the anti-infection possibilities of this vaccine by injection experiments as in contrast with compatability effects which are referred to in here as vaccination results; is that right?
A. Please ask Professor Rose about that as an expert. Diagram 1 and 2 show he mad a customary presentation of vaccine-results concerning typhus and it came from the result of vaccination apparently. Later on the testing of the vaccine was made in the case of animals as well as human beings. The documents refers definitely to vaccines which are being tested, that is my conclusion.
Q. I want to ask you a question with respect to the next sentence, where it says, "In examining spotted fever or typhus vaccines with regard to animals and men the presentation of the vaccination- results is made by average curves from the fever-curves of all experimental subjects on one side and of the control persons on the other side."
Now, this reference to control persons interests me. If these were simply compatability test of the vaccine made for simple tests to discover the reaction of the person following the typhus vaccination, what are these control persons which are mentioned?
A. I cannot say, please ask Mr. Rose about that. He is certainly better acquainted with the form of examination. Such technical reports in Berlin of scientific work were made by specialists, Luxenburger himself was a psychiatrist and he certainly did not write the report himself; it was probably done by Rose or Athmer, but I assume that Rose wrote it. He can certainly give you a good answer to this, which I cannot.
Q I am sure he probably has a very good answer, General. Now we come to document 131, which Prosecution Exhibit 309. This is a memorandum dated 29 August 1944, from your office, the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, and it is signed by your Chief of Staff, Kant. It is directed first to Haagen; secondly to the Science and Research Group of Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe. Would that second notation there be referring to Rose? Would he receive this memorandum in the normal course of events?
A This regulation? You mean, this letter, or what?
Q Yes.
A Yes, Rose received it. It says at the top, "Training Group, Science and Research." The consulting physicians were gathered there, and since it was a hygiene assignment, it was no doubt given to him for his knowledge. But I may point out number 1. It says:
"The research dealing with the dry spotted fever vaccine from vitelling sac cultures are to be continued. Therefore the 4,000 Reichs* are being placed at your disposal."
One can clearly see what the contents of the assignment from 1942 given by my predecessor were. This supplements the report which is in the files here, where Haagen speaks of those vitelline sac cultures and the procedure cf the Behring Works. I believe that without difficulty one can conclude here that the assignment which we gave Haagen was to the effect that this chicken egg process, which was developed in Frankfurt on the ?? by Otto, was to be worked out from the point of view of production, that was to start up a large-scale production of vaccine. Number 2 of this le? also shows that -
Q (Interposing) Wait just a minute, General. Suppose you answer my questions instead of explaining the document; we will come to that in moment.
I want to know to whom number 3 refers here. That is, the memorandum was sent to three places: First, Haagen; second, the Science and Research Group of the Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe, and you say Rose would n** ly have received that; and number three says, "Chief of the Medical SS of the Luftwaffe", and then follows some sort of code designation, I suppose.
To whom was this sent under the designation three?
A That went to an administrative official in my office. He was in charge of the budget; he was authorized to assign these 4,000 marks to the University of Strassbourg. This amount of 4,000 marks had to be given to Haagen's agency in some way. The budget experts took this sum from the funds at my disposal and sent it to the University of Strassbourg, to the treasury of the University of Strassbourg. From this sum Haagen was able pay the expenses for getting the chicken eggs, for paying the workers, and so forth. In addition, the treasury of the University of Strassbourg kept books on this.
Q I think that is sufficient, General.
Now number 1, as you have already pointed out, indicates that you continued to support Haagen's work with this dry typhus vaccine, doesn't
A Yes.
Q And that is the same dry typhus vaccine which, in June 1944, he stated he was getting ready to test with artificial infection experiments, isn't it?
A That was not contained in our assignment.
Q Now then, under 2 it says, "A decision as to the establishment a vaccine manufacturing plant cannot yet be made because the chief of the Medical Services of the Wehrmacht, who alone is competent to decide upon procurement of vaccines, has not yet taken a stand in this matter."
Now that indicates two things, doesn't it, General? First, that Handloser had complete control over typhus production; and secondly, that Haagen had not started producing yet? Isn't that right?
A That is right.
Q Number 3 in this memorandum roads: "Please advise whether it be assumed that the typhus epidemic prevailing at Natzweiler at present connected with the vaccine research."
Now, General, I suggest to you that that means that your chief of staff, Kant, very well knew that Haagen had been experimenting in Natzweiler with artificial infection experiments, and he was asking him if the experiments hadn't gotten out of hand and led to an epidemic there.
Isn't that what it says, General?
A. One cannot absolutely conclude that.
Q. One has to strain to draw any other conclusion, doesn't one, General?
A. This is based on knowledge which Rose had; I cannot say. Besides, it corresponds to the facts, since witnesses have testified here that in Natzweiler there was a typhus epidemic which had been brought in from outside, and Haagen later reported this tous. But from this I do not see, and I assure that my chief did not know it either -- this does not say anything about a concentration camp, it says "Natzweiler". One can assume just as well -- which I no doubt read at the time and would still read today-- that it was one of the troop camps, many of which existed during the war. That can be concluded, above all, from number 4, that this opinion prevailed, because it is pointed out that information about typhus epidemics is to be kept secret. That corresponds to a military regulation that information about such events, typhus cases in military installations, was to be sent as secret matters. That is what I read from it.
Q. General, your reference to paragraph 4 here, I put to you, is just a little bit childish. Four reads:
"The report of 21 June 1944 -- which obviously is a report by Haagen sent in to the Luftwaffe -- "The report of 21 June 1944 in which the investigation at Natzweiler are mentioned should have been sent as secret. In the future this - procedure is to be followed."
I interpret that to mean, General, that Kant was telling Haagen that with these artificial infection experiments on concentration camp inmates at Natzweiler he should send in only secret reports.
A. I can only repeat what I have already said, before, that I do not know this matter. This correspondence took place at a time when I vas on a business trip in Italy, and my chief and my representative at the time took care of it.